Pushback from Harms over Italy pickup

[Yobyot]

Has anyone had issues with Harms over Italian pickup?

I've talked to the Harms Munich office twice trying to arrange a pickup on July 25th in Rome in the afternoon.

Both times, they've whined about the unreliability of the Italian transport system (to get a driver there to Rome), and today, actually told me I can't drop off in the afternoon. Instead I have to take time from my vacation to meet a (purportedly unreliable) driver in the morning of the next day, a time when I had other things planned. It also means I have to arrange for another night's parking.

BMW offers pickup in Italy; I've followed the contact procedures. I don't understand why I have to deal with these issues instead of Harms doing it.

Does anyone at BMW have influence over Harms?

[TGray5]

Has anyone had issues with Harms over Italian pickup?

I've talked to the Harms Munich office twice trying to arrange a pickup on July 25th in Rome in the afternoon.

Both times, they've whined about the unreliability of the Italian transport system (to get a driver there to Rome), and today, actually told me I can't drop off in the afternoon. Instead I have to take time from my vacation to meet a (purportedly unreliable) driver in the morning of the next day, a time when I had other things planned. It also means I have to arrange for another night's parking.

BMW offers pickup in Italy; I've followed the contact procedures. I don't understand why I have to deal with these issues instead of Harms doing it.

Does anyone at BMW have influence over Harms?

Well, you've probably read the stories on this board about Italian dropoff...Harms is just giving you fair warning. Frankly, I'd heed the warning and dropoff elsewhere.

[dfrith]

Has anyone had issues with Harms over Italian pickup?

I've talked to the Harms Munich office twice trying to arrange a pickup on July 25th in Rome in the afternoon.

Both times, they've whined about the unreliability of the Italian transport system (to get a driver there to Rome), and today, actually told me I can't drop off in the afternoon. Instead I have to take time from my vacation to meet a (purportedly unreliable) driver in the morning of the next day, a time when I had other things planned. It also means I have to arrange for another night's parking.

BMW offers pickup in Italy; I've followed the contact procedures. I don't understand why I have to deal with these issues instead of Harms doing it.

Does anyone at BMW have influence over Harms?

Mr. Behrends at the Harms office near Munich is a great person in my opinion. I think he's just making you aware of all the facts.

Mr. Behrends contracts the drivers for pickup in Italy. I've been in his office when he was working on such a project. It was apparent that it is difficult to arrange the logistics between driver and customer. Also, he must have had some problems recently with pickups in Italy that triggered his comments.

[Yobyot]

Mr. Behrends at the Harms office near Munich is a great person in my opinion. I think he's just making you aware of all the facts.

Mr. Behrends contracts the drivers for pickup in Italy. I've been in his office when he was working on such a project. It was apparent that it is difficult to arrange the logistics between driver and customer. Also, he must have had some problems recently with pickups in Italy that triggered his comments.

I wasn't talking about anyone specific. But -- and I hope I don't sound too harsh -- I really don't care about the logistics or difficulty of arranging pick up in Italy. BMW's ED site doesn't say "this is a hard thing to do, and we cannot make a specific appointment because the whole country is unpredictable and our drivers don't drive at night." It says, and I quote, "Vehicle drop-off at the cities listed below, must be arranged with E. H. Harms, Munich office at least 1 week prior to the intended drop-off. Once you drop off your vehicle, it will be driven to Munich (Germany) for truck transfer to port of departure. Car registration and insurance must be valid for at least 5 days after date of drop-off in Italy.

I have been in contact with Harms by email and phone, I've given them 10 days registration and insurance, and what I get back is inter-European cultural assumptions coupled with vaguely reassuring statements. I expect a specific appointment on a specific date. After all, BMW's ED confirmation letter says with respect to the delivery, and again I quote, "this is not an estimated date of delivery." So, it's OK for BMW to be explicit about the date and time for delivery, but not for customers choosing to drop off in Italy? I don't get it.

I understand it's a trucking company, not a consultancy. But still, they should either make it easy or tell the customer before they've bought a car and planned to drop it off in Italy it's a risk that their vacation will be interrupted to accomodate a driver's schedule.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I wasn't talking about anyone specific. But -- and I hope I don't sound too harsh -- I really don't care about the logistics or difficulty of arranging pick up in Italy. BMW's ED site doesn't say "this is a hard thing to do, and we cannot make a specific appointment because the whole country is unpredictable and our drivers don't drive at night." It says, and I quote, "Vehicle drop-off at the cities listed below, must be arranged with E. H. Harms, Munich office at least 1 week prior to the intended drop-off. Once you drop off your vehicle, it will be driven to Munich (Germany) for truck transfer to port of departure. Car registration and insurance must be valid for at least 5 days after date of drop-off in Italy.

I have been in contact with Harms by email and phone, I've given them 10 days registration and insurance, and what I get back is inter-European cultural assumptions coupled with vaguely reassuring statements. I expect a specific appointment on a specific date. After all, BMW's ED confirmation letter says with respect to the delivery, and again I quote, "this is not an estimated date of delivery." So, it's OK for BMW to be explicit about the date and time for delivery, but not for customers choosing to drop off in Italy? I don't get it.

I understand it's a trucking company, not a consultancy. But still, they should either make it easy or tell the customer before they've bought a car and planned to drop it off in Italy it's a risk that their vacation will be interrupted to accomodate a driver's schedule.
Actually, from Italy, I believe the car is actually driven. Not trucked. You still sure you want to do that? :eeps:

[beewang]

I think the concern of someone else driving your new car is way over blown.

[Yobyot]

Actually, from Italy, I believe the car is actually driven. Not trucked. You still sure you want to do that? :eeps:

Sure, no problem. Because that was clearly disclosed and I had the opportunity to consider the pros and cons, I am OK with it.

What I am whining about is that Harms doesn't seem set up to provide precise confirmation of when and where to meet the driver. Worse, they seem to be concerned about the driver's schedule -- and the frequency of strikes -- more than making the date I asked for and have twice tried to confirm.

They've said, "Don't worry -- we'll figure something out." That's not the level of scheduling I believe it's reasonable to expect from BMW's transport vendor.

[johnf]

Harms does have an auto transport division, but from what you tell us they have told you, the branch of the company you are talking to is not acting as BMW's transport vendor or freight company. They are serving as your freight forwarder. Big difference.

The German job title of someone who does that is Speditionskaufman, literally, someone who buys shipping or transport. What I read from Harms in what you write, is a freight forwarder in Garching is arranging for an Italian firm to drive your car up to him so that it can be transported onward. He appears to be saying that the vendor he is using (and probably the vendors he can use) can be a bit irregular. He appears to have suggested some measures that you two can take to accomodate that, for example, allowing extra days registration and dropping off in the morning. Finally, he appears to be warning you that despite this, some glitch may still come up but if it does, not to worry, he (working with you) will take care of it. Actually, I will wager in the past some glitch has come up, despite all the care he and his customers have taken, and he is just preparing you for the slight chance of a repetition.

Now, if you want, you can second guess and argue with your freight forwarder, but I really wouldn't recommend that. That is about as wise as seconding guessing and arguing with a business partner. If you can't trust him to know his market and how to best move your goods, you really only have two viable, long term courses of action. You can go into the business yourself and buy some transport -- How's your Italian? -- or you find another forwarder. Since BMW hasn't done either, Harms probably does know the market and how to move your car. They are probably also telling you like it is.

That's just my two cents worth, in euros or dollars. I really don't know if my explanation was worth the time or trouble of writing, but I hope it was -- and I hope that you enjoy Italy!

[cwsqbm]

I expect a specific appointment on a specific date. After all, BMW's ED confirmation letter says with respect to the delivery, and again I quote, "this is not an estimated date of delivery." So, it's OK for BMW to be explicit about the date and time for delivery, but not for customers choosing to drop off in Italy? I don't get it.

Actually, the pickup timing in Munich was subject to BMW approval, so why is it strange that the drop off time in Italy is also subject to someone else's approval or schedule. The only reason the other countrys don't have this problem is they have an office and parking lot for your car to sit and wait until they get a truck there. My car didn't leave Paris for several days after I dropped it off. If you were paying extra for this service, I'd understand a little concern, but given that BMW goes out of its way to make ED a great experience, a little flexibility on your part will keep you from being perceived as an ugly American. When in Rome....

[TGray5]

I think the concern of someone else driving your new car is way over blown.

Yea, tell that to the guy that had tons of extra miles on his car and the two holes drilled through the trunk lid after dropoff in Italy!

To the original poster, stop being such a whiner about timing of the dropoff. BMW's brochure didn't promise you that you could dropoff in the afternoon in Italy. You really can't be without your car for a few hours on one day? Take public transportation like all the locals do.

[Yobyot]

Yea, tell that to the guy that had tons of extra miles on his car and the two holes drilled through the trunk lid after dropoff in Italy!

To the original poster, stop being such a whiner about timing of the dropoff. BMW's brochure didn't promise you that you could dropoff in the afternoon in Italy. You really can't be without your car for a few hours on one day? Take public transportation like all the locals do.

You've completely misread what I am whining about. I want to be able to get rid of the car in Rome to take public transportation, "like the locals."

[Yobyot]

Actually, the pickup timing in Munich was subject to BMW approval, so why is it strange that the drop off time in Italy is also subject to someone else's approval or schedule. The only reason the other countrys don't have this problem is they have an office and parking lot for your car to sit and wait until they get a truck there. My car didn't leave Paris for several days after I dropped it off. If you were paying extra for this service, I'd understand a little concern, but given that BMW goes out of its way to make ED a great experience, a little flexibility on your part will keep you from being perceived as an ugly American. When in Rome....

Sure, subject to BMW's acceptance, which included a drop-off date right there on the ED PO. I am complaining that Harms is changing the date after BMW and I agreed on the dates.

[Yobyot]

Harms does have an auto transport division, but from what you tell us they have told you, the branch of the company you are talking to is not acting as BMW's transport vendor or freight company. They are serving as your freight forwarder. Big difference.

The German job title of someone who does that is Speditionskaufman, literally, someone who buys shipping or transport. What I read from Harms in what you write, is a freight forwarder in Garching is arranging for an Italian firm to drive your car up to him so that it can be transported onward. He appears to be saying that the vendor he is using (and probably the vendors he can use) can be a bit irregular. He appears to have suggested some measures that you two can take to accomodate that, for example, allowing extra days registration and dropping off in the morning. Finally, he appears to be warning you that despite this, some glitch may still come up but if it does, not to worry, he (working with you) will take care of it. Actually, I will wager in the past some glitch has come up, despite all the care he and his customers have taken, and he is just preparing you for the slight chance of a repetition.

Now, if you want, you can second guess and argue with your freight forwarder, but I really wouldn't recommend that. That is about as wise as seconding guessing and arguing with a business partner. If you can't trust him to know his market and how to best move your goods, you really only have two viable, long term courses of action. You can go into the business yourself and buy some transport -- How's your Italian? -- or you find another forwarder. Since BMW hasn't done either, Harms probably does know the market and how to move your car. They are probably also telling you like it is.

That's just my two cents worth, in euros or dollars. I really don't know if my explanation was worth the time or trouble of writing, but I hope it was -- and I hope that you enjoy Italy!

Thank you for the education in German frieght-forwaring processing. I'll file that under "inserting 8-track cassettes into dash-mounted players" for future reference.

This is just excuses by way of explanation. In short, my issue is with BMW, not Harms. Neither is my "business partner." Harms is BMW's agent; I could care less how or with whom they contract. BMW sold me a car with a agreed drop off and pickup dates. How they do that is their business to understand, not mine.

[arnolds]

You can always back out of the deal and get a Mercedes. :dunno:

[2006_750Li_ED]

I had a drop off 45 days ago, and the man at HARMS made it clear to me that Italy is the most expensive dropoff since he needs to fly one of his trusted drivers to drive the car back to Munich, he claimed that the drivers worked for him over 9 years and that they are very reliable. I decided to drive the car back to Munich, I do not trust anyone to drive my car back, aspecially now since my car arrived damaged.
It takes 9 hours to drive from Rome to Munich, I would make the trip myself and bill MBW of north America for the expenses such as airfare, Hotel, Gas.
It is your car, and if they were not available as contracted you are free to remedy the situation as you see fit. If they do not voluntarily agree to your bill you can take them to your local small claims court and possibly win.
You must read the small letters on the agreement just to make sure that you did not agree to hold MMW harmless due to pickup delays.

Trust me it is a great drive and you can make it in 2 days if you want and stop in beautiful cities like Asisi, Rimini Venice, Insbruck I did it and loved it, especially the 5 hour stop in Venice, but you can charge it to BMW, as they pay a fortune to someone else to have this exact trip..... just a thought.

[johnf]

Thank you for the education in German frieght-forwaring processing. I'll file that under "inserting 8-track cassettes into dash-mounted players" for future reference.

This is just excuses by way of explanation. In short, my issue is with BMW, not Harms. Neither is my "business partner." Harms is BMW's agent; I could care less how or with whom they contract. BMW sold me a car with a agreed drop off and pickup dates. How they do that is their business to understand, not mine.But perhaps you should care: you want to drop off in Italy. (Or did?) I was just trying to point out what appeared to be the situation you are in and your options. Harms is offering to drive the car on your behalf. They will be your partners in the matter -- if you accept.

If you are sure that BMW and Harms are not doing their jobs and are making needless demands on your vacation, I would suggest you find someone else to drive your car back to Germany and then get BMW NA to reimburse you. In my limited experience, NA seems to be pretty good about making up for shortcoming and mistakes if you take the time to explain what happened and the problems they caused you. Good luck!

[johnf]

You can always back out of the deal and get a Mercedes. :dunno:That may not work. Mercedes also uses Harms (http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/edp/program/pickup/drop_off.jsp&menu=2_1).

[Yobyot]

I had a drop off 45 days ago, and the man at HARMS made it clear to me that Italy is the most expensive dropoff since he needs to fly one of his trusted drivers to drive the car back to Munich, he claimed that the drivers worked for him over 9 years and that they are very reliable. I decided to drive the car back to Munich, I do not trust anyone to drive my car back, aspecially now since my car arrived damaged.
It takes 9 hours to drive from Rome to Munich, I would make the trip myself and bill MBW of north America for the expenses such as airfare, Hotel, Gas.
It is your car, and if they were not available as contracted you are free to remedy the situation as you see fit. If they do not voluntarily agree to your bill you can take them to your local small claims court and possibly win.
You must read the small letters on the agreement just to make sure that you did not agree to hold MMW harmless due to pickup delays.

Trust me it is a great drive and you can make it in 2 days if you want and stop in beautiful cities like Asisi, Rimini Venice, Insbruck I did it and loved it, especially the 5 hour stop in Venice, but you can charge it to BMW, as they pay a fortune to someone else to have this exact trip..... just a thought.

Nah, I'm not doing that.

What I am doing is venting here. (And now I am finished. But it was a good thread while it lasted). Then, we're going with the original plan. What's going to actually happen is that Harms will have a driver meet me sometime in Rome, I'm going to give him or her the keys, and my daughter and I are going to see the sights afterwards. I won't think twice about the driver driving my car.

[johnf]

Now that you are ventilated, what should BMW NA do next time? (They do read these forums.)

[Yobyot]

Now that you are ventilated, what should BMW NA do next time? (They do read these forums.)

Actually, I was being dramatic in the specific hope that BMW NA is reading this. And if they did, then they have the message: crisp up the Italy drop-off process. Insulate the customer from Harms's opinions of Italian infrastructure. Hire an agent in one or two places to park the car until the driver arrives so that customers can reliably plan their activities in Italy.

BMW NA doesn't want the delivery experience to be remembered as a series of hassels. If Italy is one big hassle for BMW or its suppliers, then don't offer drop off there. But if you do offer it, don't transfer the challenges to the customer.

[johnf]

Actually, I was being dramatic in the specific hope that BMW NA is reading this....Such theaterics are fairly common in Germany which means people have gotten practiced at tuning them out. You do raise some good points so I hope 'NA didn't. I was curious what you were doing in order to better understand a friend's experiences. I think I am starting to.

Anyway, it appears you were able to work something out. If I were in your shoes, I would dump the car before I got to Rome but then again I am not much for "phenomenal avoidances", especially when they may involve my insurance. Have a good trip!

[Yobyot]

I've had a couple of private messages asking how this went. (I didn't return to the USA until last night).

In short, it worked out perfectly. The pointer I'd give to Italy drop-offers is make sure you email, fax and call Harms with detailed contact info on where in Italy you are to be met.

After all my whining here, when I arrived in Munich, Harms only asked that we arrive at our hotel in Rome between 1pm and 2pm so the driver could make it back to Munich that same day. Also, they requested a full tank of gas (about a US$110 cost at this month's prices).

Since we were driving from Venice on the pickup day, this meant we had to cover the 323 miles iDrive said it'd take pretty quickly. :)

(I averaged 70.2 MPH over those 323 miles. That's why you do ED: to drive a BMW the way it was engineered to be driven. BTW, the computer said the 330i got 25.2 MPG for that trip. I am impressed.)

Driving in central Rome (our hotel was across the street from the Coloseum) isn't for the timid. But with iDrive -- and beewang's Europa DVD -- we were directed to the hotel with ease.

(It's another post, but I have to tell you, I am in love with iDrive. It was amazing how it freed us to explore and how it made the task of finding things insignificant. I know the press knows more than we do, but they have missed the boat in criticising iDrive, esp. now that nav has voice command.)

At precisely, and I mean exactly, 1:30pm, Herr Siegle arrived at the hotel. He was so helpful and polite, I was instantly confident in giving him my new (well, not so new anymore with 1195 miles on it) car. He also offered to stash the license plate in the "spare tire" space when he delivered the car to Harms.

All in all, it was like clockwork. We drove the car to the hotel, parked it on the sidewalk while waiting 15 minutes for Herr Siegle, took care of the paperwork and didn't have to worry one bit about storing the car in cental Rome for three days (which, I can assure you, would have been a nightmare).

Oh, one more tip. For anyone who wants to visit Venice, book the Plaza Hotel in Mestra. It ain't the prettiest hotel (it's a four star), but the covered, secure garage is attached to the hotel, it's only e10/day and you are across the street from the train station which takes you to Venice for e1 each way. Plus, if you arrive in Mestra via the A23 from the north, there's a stretch of, of say, 50 miles on the autostrada which is as flat and straight as Kansas.

So, I can highly recommend Italy drop off because BMW and its contractor worked hard to make my drop off as painless and efficient as it could possibly be. When I arrived back and logged on to email this morning, among the hundreds of messages waiting was one from Herr Siegle letting me know he'd gotten the car to Harms safely. That's just one more example of how hard they worked to make it effortless for me.

[gwells67]

I had my car picked up in Florence and it too went like clockwork. I got a call about 30 minutes prior to the driver arriving at my hotel. He had been doing this for 9 years or so and certainly inspired confidence in his ability to get my car home safe. I had about 3/4s tank of gas in the car so I threw him an extra 30-40 euro (figured it couldn't hurt). Car arrived perfectly, but the plate didn't make it :(

All and all, don't be afraid of dropping off in Italy....Do be afraid of driving in Rome! We ditched the car before heading down to Rome and I am glad we did. I drive all of the time in NYC and boston and I don't think I could handle Rome traffic :)