Hamann Engine Upgrade

[SmoothCruise]

I own a 2004 645 convertible. Nice car... I love it. However, it is a convertible, so the pickup is sluggish. I took it to a tuner in NH, and he was surprised how sluggish it was, said it felt like an Audi A4. Anyways...

I want to get the engine upgraded by Hamann. The tuner increases the displacement from 4.4 to 5.2. Giving it more HP and torque (to 412hp, 550Nm). My questions are... I have many. (Feel free to answer even if you don't have a 645, but got your engine stroked... just wanna get a feel for this.)

1., has anyone done this here on this forum?
2. How much did it cost? How long did it take to upgrade your engine?
3. Where did you take your car to get it upgraded?
4. What's the minimum octane rating for fuel you can use after upgrade?
5. Also, can you get your engine supercharged (in my case) / turboed too?
6. How reliable was your engine after the upgrade?
7. Did the stroke engine upgrade also come with a high flow throttle body?
(Dinan sells these, give 8+hp, and 8+ torque for $600, hardly seems worth it, but I want to deck out my car. :)

What are my other options for engine upgrade other than Hamann? To me, I'd rather have more torque than more HP, since I like windy tracks, rural windy roads, and I spend more time on the streets than on the track.. so I won't be going over 120MPH much. (Incidently 120+MPH with the top down is quite scary!)

My other option is to go with Hartge. I gave them a call, and they told me I had to ship my car to Germany for the engine upgrade. I don't really want to do that. I called Hamann, and they told me that ideally, I'd have to ship my car to somewhere in California, but they were willing to work with a local tuner. (I live in New England.)

Now, I've been looking at Racing Dynamics, they have a 5.0L V8 R50 motor with 480HP, but they don't list torque. Does anyone have that number? Also, it's not clear whether they can upgrade my existing engine, or whether the R50 motor is something RD builds and I can buy separately. Anyone know?

So, if not Hamann to stroke my engine, who else? Or should I not stroke my engine at all? Questions, questions.....

thanks in advance.

[AriciU]

All i know is that the conversion costs 35000 Euro's (around 42-44k USD) and you must leave Hamann your car for around 1 month or so. Definately not worth it for the 70-80hp it gives out.

[Alex Baumann]

Any engine upgrade with displacement increase will cost you a small fortune. Period.

The other alternative, which is a lot cheaper to do, is to go with a supercharger kit.

I don't know who is manufacturing kits for the 4.4 Liter V8, but one of the most known manufacturers is ASA Germany / Infinitas.

In cooperation with Alpina, they have developed a patented supercharger (which is quite different than a standard supercharger though, since it's a combination of the intake half of a turbo, but driven by a planetary gearset - hence the name Nautilus supercharger) and planted it in the Alpina B5. By using the N62B44 block they are peaking 500hp officially (Alpina's own dyno tests showed 530-550hp, but that's another story)

Anyway, to make it short, a supercharger will give you what you need and it will be cheaper and easier.

[Alex Baumann]

And forgot to add.

The M6 Cabriolet will be out soon, you can trade your car in for one.

[AriciU]

I have searched everywhere for a SC kit for the 645 with no luck. Only guys that i found are vf-engineering (US guys) but they don't have any info on their website and won't reply to emails. Some guy on this forums has a 645 witch is SC'ed by them but he didn't reply to my PM. They claim it will cost around 8000$ if it's ever released that is.

[SmoothCruise]

Any engine upgrade with displacement increase will cost you a small fortune. Period.

The other alternative, which is a lot cheaper to do, is to go with a supercharger kit.

I don't know who is manufacturing kits for the 4.4 Liter V8, but one of the most known manufacturers is ASA Germany / Infinitas.

In cooperation with Alpina, they have developed a patented supercharger (which is quite different than a standard supercharger though, since it's a combination of the intake half of a turbo, but driven by a planetary gearset - hence the name Nautilus supercharger) and planted it in the Alpina B5. By using the N62B44 block they are peaking 500hp officially (Alpina's own dyno tests showed 530-550hp, but that's another story)

Anyway, to make it short, a supercharger will give you what you need and it will be cheaper and easier.


Alex... thanks for the information. Can you give me a link with all this information? If you can get me an English language link, that would be great. But, if you have only a German language link, I guess I can brush up on my German. It's been years......

[SmoothCruise]

Any engine upgrade with displacement increase will cost you a small fortune. Period.

The other alternative, which is a lot cheaper to do, is to go with a supercharger kit.

I don't know who is manufacturing kits for the 4.4 Liter V8, but one of the most known manufacturers is ASA Germany / Infinitas.

In cooperation with Alpina, they have developed a patented supercharger (which is quite different than a standard supercharger though, since it's a combination of the intake half of a turbo, but driven by a planetary gearset - hence the name Nautilus supercharger) and planted it in the Alpina B5. By using the N62B44 block they are peaking 500hp officially (Alpina's own dyno tests showed 530-550hp, but that's another story)

Anyway, to make it short, a supercharger will give you what you need and it will be cheaper and easier.


Alex, actually a few more things. This is my first car, and I'm still playing catchup with my knowledge and stuff. what is meant by "N62B44 block" you mean that's the name of the engine block in my car? What do you mean by the 'intake half' of a turbo? Turboes and superchargers have different sort of intakes? And what makes this supercharger better, than say a 'run of the mill' Vortech supercharger?

Finally, if superchargers are cheaper and provide more horsepower, and are easier to do than stroking your engine, why would anyone want to stroke their engine?

Anyways, thanks for the information.

[SmoothCruise]

All i know is that the conversion costs 35000 Euro's (around 42-44k USD) and you must leave Hamann your car for around 1 month or so. Definately not worth it for the 70-80hp it gives out.


Yeah, 70-80hp does not seem like alot, but you do get about 100 ft-lb torque, and thats' really good. And you can still say it's 'normally aspirated'. Isn't that cool?

Is it really that expensive? Actually, it seems quite high. For that kind of money, couldn't you swap in a really kick butt motor? I remember reading about Racing Dynamics selling a 5.0L V8 engine, with 515HP, and 585Nm, normally aspirated.

[gbelton]

Hello My Friends:

Let's look at this logically. If you want more power out of the current 4500 pound Diamond of a car you have no better choice but to bore and stroke the engine for an upgrade. There seems to be no better manufacturer than Dinan or Hamann on this topic.

Now let's look at this with logic and emotion. You want more power but you can't seem to get it in the current piece of machinery. Spend the extra moeny you got hangin' around and do it right. You cannot just up the engine and that be it, if you think so you are kidding yourself. You not only have to worry about engine upgrade costs but you also have to consider, breaking system, suspension system, exhaust system, and transmission system upgrades. This is just a clue of what you will have to undertake for a PROPER UPGRADE.:yikes:

Honestly my friend, if you have the money to waste for spending about another 45-50K (e60) money, I would put some cash down to pick up the up coming M6 Convertible. And why would you spend so much time modifying the current 6er when you still will have second best when the new M6 comes out this 07'.

Maybe you can't wait, maybe you don't care about NORMALLY ASPIRATED engines but us real BMW owners do.

I trust you will make the right decision for yourself in the end. I'll see you at Lime Rock next year in my current "Sluggish" 645Cic 05' :tsk:

Oh, I love the way mine drives and yes when the 650 hits the streets (360HP/360 ft. lb. of torque) I will be a little envious... Oh well, I still drive on...:thumbup:

Good luck my friend...

-GMAN

[SmoothCruise]

Hello My Friends:

Let's look at this logically. If you want more power out of the current 4500 pound Diamond of a car you have no better choice but to bore and stroke the engine for an upgrade. There seems to be no better manufacturer than Dinan or Hamann on this topic.

Now let's look at this with logic and emotion. You want more power but you can't seem to get it in the current piece of machinery. Spend the extra moeny you got hangin' around and do it right. You cannot just up the engine and that be it, if you think so you are kidding yourself. You not only have to worry about engine upgrade costs but you also have to consider, breaking system, suspension system, exhaust system, and transmission system upgrades. This is just a clue of what you will have to undertake for a PROPER UPGRADE.:yikes:

Honestly my friend, if you have the money to waste for spending about another 45-50K (e60) money, I would put some cash down to pick up the up coming M6 Convertible. And why would you spend so much time modifying the current 6er when you still will have second best when the new M6 comes out this 07'.

Maybe you can't wait, maybe you don't care about NORMALLY ASPIRATED engines but us real BMW owners do.

I trust you will make the right decision for yourself in the end. I'll see you at Lime Rock next year in my current "Sluggish" 645Cic 05' :tsk:

Oh, I love the way mine drives and yes when the 650 hits the streets (360HP/360 ft. lb. of torque) I will be a little envious... Oh well, I still drive on...:thumbup:

Good luck my friend...

-GMAN


Yeah yeah... I know, proper suspension, brakes, even drive train.... I plan to do all that. However,I have a tuner friend who tells me not to do it. But, I just think it's really cool to do. Now why am I not waiting for the M6 to come out in 2007? Well... because by 2007, you'd be reading about how I'm trying to find a tuner to stroke, and charge my M6!

Now, regarding whether it would be second best to the M6? Having seen what Racing Dynamics and Hamann has done to some other BMWs, that's debatable... but more importantly, who cares!?

Now, that aside, I don't understand this insistence on naturally aspirated engines? Why is that so important to BMW drivers? The BMW-Williams F1 car is force inducted so what's the story?

[AriciU]

It's not forced inducted man. All F1 cars are NA. BMW owners care about NA because of the smooth power delivery and smooth power/torque curve. A NA car is best on a track because of that smooth power delivery. Think about yourself on a track or something with a crazy single turbo Supra. You slow down for a corner, downshift, then when u try to pull out from the apex and that big turbo kick in u'd get nothing but wheelspin or even worse... end up on the concrete barrier.

[SmoothCruise]

It's not forced inducted man. All F1 cars are NA. BMW owners care about NA because of the smooth power delivery and smooth power/torque curve. A NA car is best on a track because of that smooth power delivery. Think about yourself on a track or something with a crazy single turbo Supra. You slow down for a corner, downshift, then when u try to pull out from the apex and that big turbo kick in u'd get nothing but wheelspin or even worse... end up on the concrete barrier.


They are NA? I thought I read that they were force induced in a magazine once... dang that's freaking awesome.

Now, regarding the supra... wouldn't you just account for that when you step on the gas? Like don't step on the gas too hard? I don't know, never drove turbo on the track. Just my 6, and long ago, my dad's Mercedes 380SL (Like 1988 model... real nice looking. And nice pickup too.)

Now, what about SC? I thought they were alot smoother?

[gbelton]

Hello My Friends:

Let's look at what's happing these days. Audi & Mercedes are now using NA engines in their upcoming 'S' and 'AMG' versions and you might ask Y... Well I do not need to go any further on that point since BMW realized this a long time ago...

Here is a nice article I found for you.

"NORMALLY ASPIRATED (also known as NT, non-turbo)
Examples: Chevrolet Corvette, Ford Ranger, Buick Park Avenue.
A normally aspirated car is one without any compression of the inbound air before reaching the cylinders. Air is brought in through the air filter, sucked into the combustion chamber, intake valve(s) close, sparkplugs ignite the fuel & air and combustion occurs. Exhuast valve(s) open and the exhaust gas is released, exiting out the exhaust manifold through the catalytic converter and exhaust piping to the muffler.

TURBOCHARGED
Examples: Porsche 911 Turbo, Eagle Talon TSi, Dodge Daytona ES Turbo.
A turbocharged engine makes use of the hot escaping exhaust gases that the normally aspirated engines 'waste'. On a turbocharger, there are two turbine wheels very close to each other, and they are linked via a solid metal shaft. One turbine connected to intake side of the motor while the second one is in the path of the exhaust gases. As exhaust gases pass by the exhaust turbine on the turbo, the force of the rushing air spins the turbine. Well, since the two are linked, this means the intake turbine begins spinning at the same time, forcing more air into the engine. This cycle, however, is dangerous; more air into the engine makes more exhaust gases which spins the exhaust turbine which spins the intake turbine which pushes more air into the engine. See what can happen? It's like a small runaway nuclear explosion. If you keep your foot all the way to the floorboard, the turbo would build so much pressure up in your engine that you will blow your engine up. To prevent this, there is a valve in the exhaust turbine housing that opens at a certain pressure to allow air to pass by the exhaust turbine without increasing the turbine's speed (this valve is called the "wastegate".)

Turbocharged cars typically have a intercooler in between the turbo and the intake manifold. The intercooler is designed like a radiator for the air passing through; air leaving the turbo is extremely hot (the exhaust gases rushing through the turbo can reach temperatures well over 1600 degrees.) Cooler air is more dense, contains more oxygen (and other gases) per volume, and combined with more fuel means more horsepower.

The problem with a turbo is that it requires exhaust gases to get it moving, so the car has to be moving. And from the time you press the gas to the floor to the time you get a response is called 'turbo lag'. While a properly tuned turbocharger, this lag is minimal but still present.

SUPERCHARGED
Examples: Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, Pontiac Bonneville SSEi, Ford 150 SVT Lightning.
Supercharged cars do what turbocharged cars do, they force air into the motor, but in a different fashion. To get additional air in the engine without the turbo lag, someone designed a roots-type rotor that sits on top of the motor and runs off of a belt, just like the water pump and alternator. As the engine spins, the supercharger spins just as fast as the crankshaft spins (or possibly slower if underdrive pulleys are used.) There are also different designs of superchargers; some are a bolt-on accessory that sits in the front on the motor just like any other belt-feed item like the power steering pump or alternator. With this design, are in sucked in one side from the air filter and forced down a tube in the other direction and into the intake manifold. This is typically an aftermarket supercharger, not originally sold with the car at production time.

There are drawbacks to a supercharger. First, a decent well designed supercharger is more expensive than the largest and most powerful turbocharger sold for street cars. Second, because a supercharger runs off of a belt, it takes horsepower away from the motor to operate just like the air conditioning compressor. In high performance situations, this can be anywhere from 25 or 50 horsepower lost up to losing 200+ horsepower JUST to spin the supercharger. Third, a supercharger gradually increases the PSI of boost in the cylinders with increased rpms. You can only get max boost at the redline. With a turbo, the turbo spools and the wastegate opens up once the peak desired boost is reached (on street cars this is usually around half way to the red line or lower.) Fourth and finally, a supercharger generally can not produce boost pressure as efficiently as turbocharger can. "



<table align="center" border="1" bordercolor="gray"> *******><tr> <td colspan="4" align="center">AIR FLOW THROUGH STOCK ENGINES WITH COMPLETE EXHAUST SYSTEMS</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td align="center">Normally Aspirated</td> <td align="center">Single Turbocharger</td> <td align="center">Supercharged</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1</td> <td>Air filter</td> <td>Air filter</td> <td>Air filter</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2</td> <td>Intake manifold</td> <td>Intake turbine on turbocharger</td> <td>Supercharger</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3</td> <td>Combustion chambers</td> <td>Intercooler (with most turbos)</td> <td>Intake manifold</td> </tr> <tr> <td>4</td> <td>Header(s)</td> <td>Intake manifold</td> <td>Combustion chambers</td> </tr> <tr> <td>5</td> <td>Exhaust system</td> <td>Combustion chambers</td> <td>Header(s)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>6</td> <td>
</td> <td>Exhaust manifold(s)</td> <td>Exhaust system</td> </tr> <tr> <td>7</td> <td>
</td> <td>Exhaust turbine on turbocharger</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>8</td> <td>
</td> <td>Downpipe</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td>9</td> <td>
</td> <td>Exhaust system</td> <td>
</td> </tr> ********> </table>
-GMAN

[AriciU]

Trust me, when that big turbo kicks in the only thing you want is to hold the wheel straight ;) The higher the power in a turboed car, the brutal the power delivery gets. Some guys back on Supraforums with around 550-600rwhp claimed that they smoke the rears if they put their foot down at 130mph or so. It's quite scary to be doing that at that speed in a straight line... so forget about gas'ing it up after an Apex.

[BHR4CE1]

Now why am I not waiting for the M6 to come out in 2007? Well... because by 2007, you'd be reading about how I'm trying to find a tuner to stroke, and charge my M6!


Hey there,

I just got a 2007 M6 convertible. Let me know if you hear about any mods to make this beast go faster!

[destro23]

i just read through this post... and someone mentioned $30-40K to stroke it.. for that much... you might as well go buy the 500hp Pustang in a year when the price goes down to normal and you probably won't worry as much if someone scratches it

And lord Bear.... have you hit that button on the steering wheel yet? Please start a new thread when you do!!

[BHR4CE1]

And lord Bear.... have you hit that button on the steering wheel yet? Please start a new thread when you do!!

Nope.. not yet. Still have about 550 miles to go. I guess I need to get back to SOCAL and drive that thing a little!

[Malibubimmer]

Nope.. not yet. Still have about 550 miles to go. I guess I need to get back to SOCAL and drive that thing a little!

If you think you need more HP after you push and start using the whoopee button, perhaps you would like to drive this machine:

http://www.ejectionsite.com/stapp/19.gif

[6er]

I've heard the Hamann 6 5.2 engine sexiest sounding car ever !!!!!!!!

I was in love, I saw it at the Wafi carpark in Dubai, It was before the normal 6er was even launched in the UK. :bigpimp:

I say do it:D

[BHR4CE1]

If you think you need more HP after you push and start using the whoopee button...

I think I just found out what I want...


http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=87256

[Navit]

this thread is pretty old... i guess they never made a supercharger for the 645ci since the 650 came out right?

[ShinySteelRobot]

VF Engineering is supposedly still working on the supercharger for the 6er, but nobody's heard from them in forever, AFAIK, at least in regards to 6er mods. Their website lists it as "road testing":
http://www.vf-engineering.com/index.php?v=/kit_bmw_e64_650.php

Their web site lists the price at $9000.

Too bad it seems DOA, there are probably a lot of owners out there whose cars are coming off warranty who'd be interested in M6-class "oomph" for only 9 grand more. Besides, it would help the 6 series keep up with the likes of the 335i. :)