Engine dies whilst driving: The ugly side of the Start/Stop button?

[nitram_luap]

I'm sure this is supposed to be a 'feature' but I question the usefulness of this...

I have test driven both a 1er & 3er (both FANTASTIC drives by the way...) here in Australia and they both exhibit the same response, whilst the car is IN MOTION, to either
1) Pressing and holding the Start/Stop button for >2 seconds, or
2) Pressing the Start/Stop button 3 times in quick succession

The engine switches off, power steering and brakes switch off, the lights switch to 'park' mode if they were on (ie. they essentially switch off). The only thing that doesn't happen is that the steering lock does not engage... although I'm not sure what happens if you have comfort access?? That's a worry!

The above is not so disturbing if it weren't for the following observations:
- The engines can't seem to be started again whilst in motion! (Note: these were Autos which need to be in P! - Manuals would be OK I would think)
- The location of the Start/Stop button worries me... it is in easy reach of the passenger.

Why does it have to be medial to the steering wheel, why can't it be on the lateral side near the door?
Should the Start/Stop button just be disabled whilst the wheels are in motion?
Does BMW read any of these posts?

A few questions for owners:
Has anyone else tried this in the new E90 and if so, have you found another way to get the car going again (automatic trans) if you're are already in motion?
What happens with cars with comfort access when the engine is turned off - does the steering lock automatically engage if the key is in your pocket?

Paul Martin
Australia

[silverado]

I'm sure this is supposed to be a 'feature' but I question the usefulness of this...

I have test driven both a 1er & 3er (both FANTASTIC drives by the way...) here in Australia and they both exhibit the same response, whilst the car is IN MOTION, to either
1) Pressing and holding the Start/Stop button for >2 seconds, or
2) Pressing the Start/Stop button 3 times in quick succession

Why is this potential danger any greater than with a standard key? The button is so close to the driver and the steering wheel that any passenger reaching it is either a child (who shouldn't be there) or someone who wants to do you harm (and that could be done with a standard key ignition).

[SergioK]

- The location of the Start/Stop button worries me... it is in easy reach of the passenger.

No more different than a key in any other automobile I've driven.

[e90fanatic]

I'm sure this is supposed to be a 'feature' but I question the usefulness of this...

I have test driven both a 1er & 3er (both FANTASTIC drives by the way...) here in Australia and they both exhibit the same response, whilst the car is IN MOTION, to either
1) Pressing and holding the Start/Stop button for >2 seconds, or
2) Pressing the Start/Stop button 3 times in quick succession

The engine switches off, power steering and brakes switch off, the lights switch to 'park' mode if they were on (ie. they essentially switch off). The only thing that doesn't happen is that the steering lock does not engage... although I'm not sure what happens if you have comfort access?? That's a worry!

The above is not so disturbing if it weren't for the following observations:
- The engines can't seem to be started again whilst in motion! (Note: these were Autos which need to be in P! - Manuals would be OK I would think)
- The location of the Start/Stop button worries me... it is in easy reach of the passenger.

Why does it have to be medial to the steering wheel, why can't it be on the lateral side near the door?
Should the Start/Stop button just be disabled whilst the wheels are in motion?
Does BMW read any of these posts?

A few questions for owners:
Has anyone else tried this in the new E90 and if so, have you found another way to get the car going again (automatic trans) if you're are already in motion?
What happens with cars with comfort access when the engine is turned off - does the steering lock automatically engage if the key is in your pocket?

Paul Martin
Australia


First of all, this is just stupid. Why would you ever start the car when the car is in motion? Am I the only one that sees something wrong with your post? Secondly, the car was designed for left hand drive not right hand drive. That's why the start/stop button is not as handy as it should have been.

BTW, i don't know what you drive but it seems as though u need to retune yourself. When something goes wrong, you pull over to the side. You don't try to start the car over and over. Next time you know somebody will rear end you because you just fail to have common sense. :confused:

[ObD]

- The location of the Start/Stop button worries me... it is in easy reach of the passenger.

Precisely for the passenger to reach it and shut off the engine should the driver become incapacited at the wheel.

[ObD]

Has anyone else tried this in the new E90 and if so, have you found another way to get the car going again (automatic trans) if you're are already in motion?


I assume that putting the car in neutral will allow you to start it.

[mapezzul]

wow... i just checked the date and it is not april 1st so this must be for real. Why the He** would one even try to do this? How much easier is it than turning a key in half a second? I am just glad you are not driving on the road near my family and I. Good luck and use some common sense.

[Artslinger]

I can see this guys point... some passanger says "whats this button for" and presses the button, noone would turn the key off in a running.

[nitram_luap]

First of all, this is just stupid. Why would you ever start the car when the car is in motion? Am I the only one that sees something wrong with your post? Secondly, the car was designed for left hand drive not right hand drive. That's why the start/stop button is not as handy as it should have been.

BTW, i don't know what you drive but it seems as though u need to retune yourself. When something goes wrong, you pull over to the side. You don't try to start the car over and over. Next time you know somebody will rear end you because you just fail to have common sense. :confused:

Fellow posters,

I wasn't expecting people to attack my driving when I posted this. How you would know all this about me based on this post intrigues me. Commenting about being dangerous and endangering you and your families on the road - how arrogant!

For all those that need every little detail of the 'test' spelled out to you... I tried this at low speed during a BMW test drive on a disused racetrack, not on the open road. I did it out of curiosity because I wanted to know what happens if someone hits that button whilst the car is moving. I like to know how *everything* works - that's my job.
I'm glad everyone assumed I was driving on the roads doing this... thanks for the sensible discussion.

Now, in response:

Firstly, I was talking about if the engine is switched off (by a passenger, or an electrical gremlin, or whatever...) whilst *already* in motion it cannot be restarted without shifting into Park *and* putting your foot on the brake. I was not talking about moving the car and then starting the engine. You misread my post. Some new Landrovers have been known to do this little trick whilst on the open road (ie. switch off for no reason), so that's why I was curious.

My question was why it is possible to do it in the first place...? What's the point of needing the ability to turn off the engine with a push of a button whilst in motion?

I would argue that the safety aspect if the driver becomes incapacitated is a poor argument for switching the engine off, largely because the lights all switch off, as does the power steering, DSC, etc - hardly safe! God only knows what happens to the ABS & the airbags... It would be better to just shift the car into neutral, gently use the handbrake and steer the car safely from the passenger seat.

Paul Martin
Australia

[silverado]

I can see this guys point... some passanger says "whats this button for" and presses the button, noone would turn the key off in a running.
That would be a lunatic passenger that I wouldn't have in my car in the first place (one who reaches all the way under the steering wheel and in front of the driver and actually presses a button on a moving car). But having said that, you'd be a lunatic to allow him to reach that region let alone hold the button > 2 seconds (if it's really just 2 secs) or press it three times in succession without slapping his/her hand away.

[silverado]

My question was why it is possible to do it in the first place...? What's the point of needing the ability to turn off the engine with a push of a button whilst in motion?

I would argue that the safety aspect if the driver becomes incapacitated is a poor argument for switching the engine off, largely because the lights all switch off, as does the power steering, DSC, etc - hardly safe! God only knows what happens to the ABS & the airbags... It would be better to just shift the car into neutral, gently use the handbrake and steer the car safely from the passenger seat.

Paul Martin
Australia
I don't know if it has anything to do with incapacitation, but all car engines can be turned off while the car is moving, so, again, this is no more "dangerous" than any other car.

Not everyone commented on your driving or made assumptions; I didn't. I contended that there is no more danger in this car than any other with a standard key. I take issue with the premise of "the ugly side of the Start/Stop button". Can you address the questions I brought up in my posts?

EDIT: Also, I don't think the start requirements for the automatic transmission cars are any different from cars with a key.

[Thertorch]

Fellow posters,

I wasn't expecting everyone to attack my driving when I posted this. How you would know all this about me based on this post intrigues me. Commenting about being dangerous and endangering you and your families on the road - how arrogant!

For all those that need every little detail of the 'test' spelled out to you... I tried this at low speed during a BMW test drive on a disused racetrack, not on the open road. I did it out of curiosity because I wanted to know what happens if someone hits that button whilst the car is moving. I like to know how *everything* works - that's my job.
I'm glad everyone assumed I was driving on the roads doing this... thanks for the sensible discussion.

Now, in response:

Firstly, I was talking about if the engine is switched off (by a passenger, or an electrical gremlin, or whatever...) whilst *already* in motion it cannot be restarted without shifting into Park *and* putting your foot on the brake. I was not talking about moving the car and then starting the engine. You misread my post. Some new Landrovers have been known to do this little trick whilst on the open road (ie. switch off for no reason), so that's why I was curious.

My question was why it is possible to do it in the first place...? What's the point of needing the ability to turn off the engine with a push of a button whilst in motion?

I would argue that the safety aspect if the driver becomes incapacitated is a poor argument for switching the engine off, largely because the lights all switch off, as does the power steering, DSC, etc - hardly safe! God only knows what happens to the ABS & the airbags... It would be better to just shift the car into neutral, gently use the handbrake and steer the car safely from the passenger seat.

Paul Martin
Australia


Paul,

You posted a potentially negative comment about a BMW on BIMMERGOSHDARNFEST!

Unless you're complaining about the looks, or the parts that fall off your car, you must remain quiet. The engineering brilliance that is the Ultimate Driving Machine must not be questioned.

Now you'll excuse me whilst I don my asbestos bimmerwear. :p

[nitram_luap]

I don't know if it has anything to do with incapacitation, but all car engines can be turned off while the car is moving, so, again, this is no more "dangerous" than any other car.

Not everyone commented on your driving or made assumptions; I didn't. I contended that there is no more danger in this car than any other with a standard key. I take issue with the premise of "the ugly side of the Start/Stop button?". Can you address the questions I brought up in my posts?

Silverado,

The retaliation was directed at the appropriate people, not every respondant - I should not have used the word 'everyone'. I've edited that out, sorry.

In response to your comments:
- Yes, the danger of someone turning off the engine is no different than with a key (particulary for left-hand drive models), but restarting it is slightly different in this car (you didn't need a foot on the brake in the E46 IIRC). At least it requires a long push or 3 quick pushes for it to kill the engine... I guess that's 'safer'...
- In reference to the premise of 'the ugly side...' I appreciate your point, but it was just that, a premise to draw attention and start discussion (which it clearly has) - it wasn't a statement. I actually really like the start/stop button.

I never had a chance to fully explore this situation (didn't have the cars for long enough).
- Can the engine be started in neutral in an automatic?
- Does the steering wheel lock kick in if you have comfort access?
- Why do we need to turn off an engine whilst a car is in motion AT ALL?? Safety in emergencies just doesn't hold water as an argument - there are safer alternative actions.

Paul Martin
Australia

[tksung]

I contended that there is no more danger in this car than any other with a standard key.
Are you saying that it's ok as long as the new technology is no more dangerous than the old? Mechanical keys may not be able to prevent turning off while moving. Electronic keys should be able to. I'd also dismiss the incapacitated driver argument. That would be introducing a great danger to support unlikely events.

When I first read the OP, I thought he was making it up as I can't think of a reason why one needs to be able to turn off engine and electronics while the car is moving. My first guess is that it is an oversight by BMW. But then, it requires over 2 sec to turn it off while moving, so it must've been intentional. (If one could turn off with a touch, it would be a liability fodder). I'm as baffled as Paul.

[James]

Perhaps this could be viewed as a saftey enchancement.

BMW wanted to provide a way to power the car down while in motion (stuck gas pedal, electrical fire...whatever) but to be able to just hit the start/stop button again could easily be done unintentionally so they made it so you had to really want to turn the engine off to make it happen, not just an accidental push.

Just a theory.

James.

[mapezzul]

I just wanted to say that, after checking 2 automatic cars, they require that the car be in park and that the brake pedal be depressed to start, so there is no difference from the E90 start/stop button. I see no difference in the start/stop button compared to a standard key in this respect. A previous poster listed the possible reasons for turning off the ignition while driving. I think it is actually safer than a key since it requires being held in for a period of time, or be pressed multiple times, a key needs to be turned a fraction of a turn of the tumbler to turn the car off, must only go back on position not all the way to lock.

[James]

Maybe I am alone on this one, but I am not sure how safe I'd feel driving a car that didn't have a way to "pull the plug", to borrow a phrase.

James.

[nitram_luap]

..., a key needs to be turned a fraction of a turn of the tumbler to turn the car off, must only go back on position not all the way to lock.

Yes... good point. I also see the benefit of killing the engine whilst still moving (not necessarily quickly) in case of a fire I suppose. It would be nice to test whether the safety features (ABS, DSC, Airbags, etc) all remain ON when the car has been switched OFF... If I get another chance on a large skidpan then I might try it out. It may not be for a while though.

I guess we all agree that it is at least a good thing that the button has to either be held or pressed 3 times!

Is this documented in the user manual? I can't seem to find it.

Paul Martin
Australia

[ViperSSD]

the steering probably locks w/ comfort access because if the car gets stolen, even after hot wiring the car, they wont be able to drive very far

[mapezzul]

the steering probably locks w/ comfort access because if the car gets stolen, even after hot wiring the car, they wont be able to drive very far

First off you can't "hotwire" most modern cars including BMW's, they need the authenticating code from the key. And the steering does not lock unless the accessory power has been turned off, so i doubt that it would lock. I would imagine that it would function as if the car had stalled, and therefore not lock. If it were to autolock the steering column when the car stalled that would be a law suit waiting to happen, that would just be a stupid design.

[obmd1]

I just got back from borrowing my fiancee's 05 330 CI. I had the strangest reflex action, and turned the ignition ket to off whilst driving. Son of a bee atch, the darn thing shut down. The lights shut off, the brakes bled off, and I was steering by brute force...I really think they should move the key. Perhaps put it in the trunk with an accessory gas pedal so I can start and stop the engine only when parked. I mean, is BMW reading these posts? Anyone could disable the engine on a whim at any time, and I could be seriously killed. Perhaps one of those plastic thermostat boxes on the dashboard to protect me from malicious passengers?

Oh, and on automatics.. reverse is almost RIGHT NEXT to drive.. I wonder what would happen if I flipped it into reverse at 40 km/hr?

sheeesh

[James]

I hope you learned your lesson Paul. If you have safety concerns about a BMW you wish to express this is clearly not the place. :rolleyes:

James.

[silverado]

Are you saying that it's ok as long as the new technology is no more dangerous than the old? Mechanical keys may not be able to prevent turning off while moving. Electronic keys should be able to. I'd also dismiss the incapacitated driver argument. That would be introducing a great danger to support unlikely events.

When I first read the OP, I thought he was making it up as I can't think of a reason why one needs to be able to turn off engine and electronics while the car is moving. My first guess is that it is an oversight by BMW. But then, it requires over 2 sec to turn it off while moving, so it must've been intentional. (If one could turn off with a touch, it would be a liability fodder). I'm as baffled as Paul.
No, I'm not saying it's ok that the new technology is no more dangerous than the old. However the title and gist of the post (Engine dies whilst driving: the ugly side of the start/stop button) suggests to me that the poster is surprised at this behavior AND thinks it's a problem particular to the start/stop button.

Having said that, I've always known that you can turn an engine off while driving (duh). I can come up with many good reasons why disallowing turning the engine off while the car is moving can be downright dangerous. For example, your engine catches on fire in an accident and the car is still drifting (or your car is upside down after rolling over and your tires are still spinning, leading the fancy the-car-is-still-moving detector to think it's still moving, etc, etc). You see the fire and you want to cut the fuel supply, but, guess what, a genius engineer thought that will NEVER be warranted... and boom, you're history. I can think of many other scenarios.

[obmd1]

No, I'm not saying it's ok that the new technology is no more dangerous than the old. However the title and gist of the post about "the ugly side of the start/stop button" suggests to me that the poster is surprised at this behavior AND thinks it's a problem particular to the start/stop button.

Having said that, I've always known that you can turn an engine off while driving (duh). I can come up with many good reasons why disallowing turning the engine off while the car is moving can be downright dangerous. For example, your engine catches on fire in an accident and the car is still drifting (or your car is upside down after rolling over and your tires are still spinning, leading the fancy the-car-is-still-moving detector to think it's still moving, etc, etc). You see the fire and you want to cut the fuel supply, but, guess what, a genius engineer thought that will NEVER be warranted... and boom, you're history. I can think of many other scenarios.

:stupid: this goes back to the original thread, which was what is the point of the button vs key... no point, no different. I was driving my buddies G35 last month, and while aggressively accelrating out of the toll, the gas pedal got stuck under his stupid a$$ winter mats. I almost went carreening into the truck in front of me, and was basically standing on the brakes in the redline until I reached for the key, and shut the engine off. Had I not been able to, I would have been killed, easy. Took me three starts and stops to figure out what was wrong!!! A very scary day, and my only control... MY ONLY CONTROL was to turn the engine off.

don't be dumb. Don't shut off the car to see if you can. Don't do it with a button, don't do it with a key. But when you see you need it, you'll know how lucky you'll be. I do not like them, Sam I Am, I do not like green eggs and ham....

[RichReg]

I can see this guys point... some passanger says "whats this button for" and presses the button, noone would turn the key off in a running.

You mean some illiterate passenger with an obsessive compulsive disorder.....
WTF???? :eek:

[RichReg]

I just got back from borrowing my fiancee's 05 330 CI. I had the strangest reflex action, and turned the ignition ket to off whilst driving. Son of a bee atch, the darn thing shut down. The lights shut off, the brakes bled off, and I was steering by brute force...I really think they should move the key. Perhaps put it in the trunk with an accessory gas pedal so I can start and stop the engine only when parked. I mean, is BMW reading these posts? Anyone could disable the engine on a whim at any time, and I could be seriously killed. Perhaps one of those plastic thermostat boxes on the dashboard to protect me from malicious passengers?

Oh, and on automatics.. reverse is almost RIGHT NEXT to drive.. I wonder what would happen if I flipped it into reverse at 40 km/hr?

sheeesh
:bustingup :bustingup :bustingup :bustingup

[Volk61]

That would be a lunatic passenger that I wouldn't have in my car in the first place (one who reaches all the way under the steering wheel and in front of the driver and actually presses a button on a moving car). But having said that, you'd be a lunatic to allow him to reach that region let alone hold the button > 2 seconds (if it's really just 2 secs) or press it three times in succession without slapping his/her hand away. Just to point out that the original post was about a car in Australia. That means we sit on the right of the car. The Start/Stop button is now on the passenger side of the car.
However, it would be good for someone to get an answer from BMW maybe via email? Also the buitton does say Start/Stop.

[silverado]

Just to point out that the original post was about a car in Australia. That means we sit on the right of the car. The Start/Stop button is now on the passenger side of the car.
However, it would be good for someone to get an answer from BMW maybe via email? Also the buitton does say Start/Stop.
They are towards the passenger side in the US too, but I wouldn't say they are "on" the passenger side. Again, what passenger sits there and presses the driver's buttons (no pun intended)?

[tksung]

I can come up with many good reasons why disallowing turning the engine off while the car is moving can be downright dangerous. For example, your engine catches on fire in an accident and the car is still drifting (or your car is upside down after rolling over and your tires are still spinning, leading the fancy the-car-is-still-moving detector to think it's still moving, etc, etc). You see the fire and you want to cut the fuel supply, but, guess what, a genius engineer thought that will NEVER be warranted... and boom, you're history. I can think of many other scenarios.
The last thing I'll remember in the middle accident is to turn off the engine. (Last time I had one, my car was left running till the cop noticed.) The engine can be and should be shut off automatically in case of such immergencies, rather than relying on the operator in distress.

It could be mostly another liability defense than anything else. I could see someone claiming "your honor, my wife was burned to death in that accident. Had BMW allowed my wife to turn the engine off while colliding, she would be alive today".

[tksung]

I almost went carreening into the truck in front of me, and was basically standing on the brakes in the redline until I reached for the key, and shut the engine off.
How about if the car automatically power down if both break and accelerator are pressed hard? Maybe Paul can try this too and see if bimmer is smarter than G35?? :eeps: Unlike you, I'll bet many of those with infamous sudden acceleration syndrome never remembered to turn the car off before they plowed into something.

[silverado]

This is getting rediculous!

All cars' engines can be shut off; not just BMW's. So it's an incredible stretch to suggest that this is there for BMW to cover their a$$es in court.

I guess that's why airplane engines cannot be shutdown during flight, for what reason would any sane pilot have for shutting an engine off?! After all, you need engines to prevent crashing, right?! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It's painfully obvious that altimate manual control should always be available to the driver. Anyone who thinks that we can enumerate each possibility of what can go wrong, how to best recover from it and leave it ONLY in the hands of computers to control, is sadly mistaken.

[tksung]

Maybe I am alone on this one, but I am not sure how safe I'd feel driving a car that didn't have a way to "pull the plug", to borrow a phrase.

That's the only real argument for manual shut-off so far. A backup when all else fails. But then, it's practical value is very minimal. Is it worth risking accidental shut off? Probably not, if you ask me. It's smart of bmw though, to make it three quick punching. That's precisely what I'd be doing when I'm panicked, even if I didn't know it.

[justchecking]

Fellow posters,

I wasn't expecting people to attack my driving when I posted this. How you would know all this about me based on this post intrigues me. Commenting about being dangerous and endangering you and your families on the road - how arrogant!


Paul Martin
Australia

Paul,
You have to realize many of these writers are in US. And it is said that "A" in USA stands for arrogant. So this is just to put some perspective on lot of shallow arrogant posts one sees in these forums.

-JC.

[tksung]

It's painfully obvious that altimate manual control should always be available to the driver.
Well, someone once told me that what is obvious is not necessarily true. If that were so obvious, we'd have a stick backup next to automatic, right? While pretending to wear my engineer's hat that I no longer own, I'd still like to understand the reason, other than that everybody does it too. So far, nothing is obvious to me.

[phantom701]

I guess that's why airplane engines cannot be shutdown during flight, for what reason would any sane pilot have for shutting an engine off?! After all, you need engines to prevent crashing, right?!

Actually, you can shutdown airplane engines during flight. I'm a pilot and have done so for various reasons. During flight trainings, you get to shut off the engines to practice various emergency recoveries. Also, if the engine was on fire (it does happen even thou it's rare), you must turn off the engine to prevent further danger.

Nevertheless, I agree with you on the Start/Stop button, it's no different from what you can do to 99.99% of the vehicles currently on the road that use a key mechanism.

[Volk61]

They are towards the passenger side in the US too, but I wouldn't say they are "on" the passenger side. Again, what passenger sits there and presses the driver's buttons (no pun intended)? I thought it was just an annoying issue for us. i don't like that I have to get into the car and reach around the steering wheel to start the car.

[tierfreund]

- Does the steering wheel lock kick in if you have comfort access?
Paul Martin
Australia

No. with CA the steering wheel lock ONLY engages when you (or rather the keyfob) leaves the inside of the car. So that is acutally safer than the key on the E46.

[johnf]

It strikes me that after you press the start/stop button to kill the engine, the car should do just that, and kill everything else once the car has come to a stop, or failing that, for as long as possible. That could be safer than having a mechanical key (as suggested in the last post).

[Artslinger]

You mean some illiterate passenger with an obsessive compulsive disorder.....
WTF???? :eek:


That would be a lunatic passenger that I wouldn't have in my car in the first place (one who reaches all the way under the steering wheel and in front of the driver and actually presses a button on a moving car). But having said that, you'd be a lunatic to allow him to reach that region let alone hold the button > 2 seconds (if it's really just 2 secs) or press it three times in succession without slapping his/her hand away.


What if you left the car running and ran into a store during the winter and the passenger pressed the button... sh!t happens.

I have notice that the E90 board has a large percentage of ....... they spew little temper tantrums anytime someone questions their precious E90. :rofl:

[silverado]

What if you left the car running and ran into a store during the winter and the passenger pressed the button... sh!t happens.

I have notice that the E90 board has a large percentage of ....... they spew little temper tantrums anytime someone questions their precious E90. :rofl:
Where is the temper tantrum in stating the opinion that only a lunatic passenger would play with driver buttons while the car is moving? Stating opinions and arguing that the others' are wrong is exactly what you're doing as well.

[silverado]

I thought it was just an annoying issue for us. i don't like that I have to get into the car and reach around the steering wheel to start the car.
Some cars like Saab have chosen more "convenient" locations that are not "around" the steering wheel like all other cars. In some Saabs you insert the key near the shifter and twist it to start the car. Now that, IMO, can be easily called stupid and I know of cases where passengers have bumped into it causing the engine to shut off. Take a look at the attached image.

Let me state for the nth time that my problem with this post is the title and the premise that there is a unique danger in the E90 because of the start stop button. We are now discussing the merits of allowing turning the engine off in ANY CAR while it's running and of putting the start stop mechanism (key or button) under the steering wheel. This is a VERY general discussion that applies to all automobiles.

[obmd1]

and while the keys in the saab sit flat next to the e-brake, I can only imagine what that rattle is like running down the road!!!

[ViperSSD]

In aston martins and other high end cars, the "Engine Start/Stop" button is located in the enter of the dash in between the air vents......... and pushing while driving will also turn it off.

One clarification question though, in RHD e90s, is the "Engine Start/Stop" button to the right or to the left of the climate control system?

[andy_thomas]

How about if the car automatically power down if both break and accelerator are pressed hard?
I believe all modern BMWs shut the throttle if you brake *and* accelerate in gear whilst moving, after a 2-second delay. If the throttle gets stuck to the floor, all you do is brake firmly. After 2 sec of the engine straining at WOT against the brakes, the throttle is instantly shut, and you suddenly start braking very hard indeed :)

[obLu]

I think you're all missing a big point .... the start / stop button is just stupid marketing technology in the first place. Just like the silly tacked on shark fin that now everybody has to have ... it could've easily just been designed to be unobtrusive.

What does the start stop button provide me that a standard key with a cylinder can't provide? Comfort Access? Yay. If I'm so lazy I can't put the key in the ignition and turn it without taking it out of my pocket, perhaps I shouldn't be in a "driver's car".

But I think the ignition should always be on the left of the steering column, furthest from the passenger space ala Porsche.

Bah! Down with gizmos in a BMW!!! :eeps:

[CJsCar]

The last person I know who died because they turned off the car while driving was Pelle Linberg from the Flyers.

Get real, this whole thread is how lawyers make a living by hanging on the potential fears that people make up. :spank: Oh, and for you kids who are out late and need to coast into the driveway with the lights off just remember to get home on time.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Any chance we can start worrying about real issues?

[silverado]

What does the start stop button provide me that a standard key with a cylinder can't provide? Comfort Access? Yay. If I'm so lazy I can't put the key in the ignition and turn it without taking it out of my pocket, perhaps I shouldn't be in a "driver's car".

Some people do not like change and resist it strongly. It's human nature. Granted some of these changes do not necessarily add value, but what's the big deal?

BTW, the same arguments can be made about most technological conveniences.
- If I'm too lazy to rotate the dial on a rotary phone and have to press buttons maybe I shouldn't be making phone calls
- If I'm too lazy to press mechanical buttons to retrieve radio memory locations and prefer electronic buttons I shouldn't be listening to the radio
- If I'm too lazy to shift gears myself and want them to be shifted for me automatically I shouldn't be driving

etc, etc, etc.

[RichReg]

Actually, I think BMW should have put the Start button right smack on the steering column where the ignition cylinder used to be;;; that would've made all the kids happy.
.....DUH.

This thread is the..
WINNER OF THE MOST RIDICULOUS TOPIC OF THE YEAR!!!!!!

[obmd1]

I occasionally like to hit the hood release in traffic.... testing the restraint. :p

when will this thread die?

[tksung]

I believe all modern BMWs shut the throttle if you brake *and* accelerate in gear whilst moving, after a 2-second delay. If the throttle gets stuck to the floor, all you do is brake firmly. After 2 sec of the engine straining at WOT against the brakes, the throttle is instantly shut, and you suddenly start braking very hard indeed :)
There you go. Wonder what dumbass engineers at Infiniti were thinking when a lay poster on a Internet could figure out the solution after 15 sec of thinking. Can someone verify that if G35 is indeed so dumb? I can't believe any car company would be so dumb, especially after sudden acceleration syndrome almost killed Audi.

[tksung]

Well, this thread certainly hasn't been productive. After all that handwaving, I'm yet to hear when you could productively use the manual shutdown of the engine while the car is moving. Maybe Paul should submit it to Click and Clack brothers.

[MysticBlue]

Amazingly stupid discussion...therefore I must join in :D

Think about what keys were for in the first place; if people didn't steal things, most ignition switches would have been buttons or switches from the very beginning. People are just used to keys now and they don't like change. Now that theft prevention is electronic and has nothing to do with a traditional key, it is only natural that we are going back to buttons.
As far as the supposed safety issues raised, I'm dumbfounded. How is it any different than the vast majority of cars on the road today with traditional key ignitions?
Every car I have ever driven has the ignition switch on the passenger side of the steering wheel, whether right or left drive. (Not to mention lots of other controls which could theoretically be operated by a passenger, like the gear shift!)
Every car I have ever driven has the ability (and rightly so) to shut the engine off while in motion. ("Whilst" is not really a word :p ).
Every Automatic I have driven within recent memory has to have it in park and the brake pressed before you can start it. So, in my opinion;
a). This is not a BMW specific issue.
b). There is no safety issue or concern in the first place.
c). If this is something you are really concerned with, stop driving...driving is a very risky activity.
Thus ends my stupid contribution to a stupid converstation. :blah:

[bbb90104]

okay .... first off ... I do believe it is a saftey issue. Not that it will happen very often, but yes there is the potential of a huge problem.

There is at least one scenario that I can think of off the top of my head. While the car is running, turn the car of and remove the key fob (assuming you don't have CA). Restart the car by pressing the start/stop button without the keyfob in the ignition (there have been other posts about this on this forum, so it can be done). Now you can drive around without the keyfob. Press and hold the start/stop button while moving. Guess what, the steering wheel SHOULD lock (I am only assuming, because I don't have a BMW ... but all cars lock the steer if there is no key). So what you've effectively done is killed the engine/steering and in an automatic ... have no way of starting it back up unless you come to a complete stop. Can you say ... lawsuit.

Yes ... this is completely utterly asinine and would probably never happen in the real world. But it should have been something that was thought of when developing the START/STOP button. If you're going to re-design something, then do it RIGHT.

So, I agree with the original poster ... we have the technology to not allow the car to stop while moving, so we should probably provide it.

As for all those who say ... no one would push the button. Come on, its a freakin' button on the dash! In a new car ... everyone (at least most men) wants to push every button there is (at least once) ... heck I know I'd probably push the button at some point in time (probably not while in motion, but I'd hit it).

And to those saying its no worse than a key ... well it is. A key is not located in the central dash. A key is (usually) on the driver's side by the steering column, and usually is quite well protected by the steering wheel, and driver's knees and hands (assuming they have both hands on the wheel). If the key were in the middle of the dash ... I know some idiot out there would have already pulled it out while the car was moving.

I'm not bashing the engineering of this car ... or the design of this car. I love the looks of it, and the technology in it. I actually plan on buying one (if I could ever get my ass out of this debt hole that I am in). But I will bash any marketing gimick that is not properly designed and thoroughly tested.

just my 2cents.

[silverado]

Well, this thread certainly hasn't been productive. After all that handwaving, I'm yet to hear when you could productively use the manual shutdown of the engine while the car is moving. Maybe Paul should submit it to Click and Clack brothers.
While you're at it, please try to come up with answers to the following similarly puzzling questions:

- Why are we allowed to turn the lights off when it's dark outside?
- Why are we allowed to turn the wipers off while it is raining? (the car has sensors so it knows when it's raining)
- Why are we allowed to shut off defrost when the ice isn't gone yet?

[silverado]

And to those saying its no worse than a key ... well it is. A key is not located in the central dash. A key is (usually) on the driver's side by the steering column, and usually is quite well protected by the steering wheel, and driver's knees and hands (assuming they have both hands on the wheel). If the key were in the middle of the dash ... I know some idiot out there would have already pulled it out while the car was moving.

I enjoy reading people shooting their mouths off without knowing what they're talking about. I suggest finding a picture of an E90 and looking at the button's location before posting.

[MysticBlue]

While you're at it, please try to come up with answers to the following similarly puzzling questions:

- Why are we allowed to turn the lights off when it's dark outside?
- Why are we allowed to turn the wipers off while it is raining? (the car has sensors so it knows when it's raining)
- Why are we allowed to shut off defrost when the ice isn't gone yet?Why are we allowed to open the doors while the car is moving?
Why are we allowed to unbuckle the seat belt while the car is moving?
Why isn't the steering wheel turn stops more restrictive at higher speed? I can't believe they would allow you to turn the steering wheel all the way to the right or left lock while traveling 120 mph.

[tksung]

- Why are we allowed to turn the lights off when it's dark outside?
- Why are we allowed to turn the wipers off while it is raining? (the car has sensors so it knows when it's raining)
- Why are we allowed to shut off defrost when the ice isn't gone yet?
- Because you are not driving? Because you are a detective and need to sneak behind the supspect?
- Because you don't want to mess up your wipers while going through automatic carwash?
- Because you don't have automatic defroster yet? Because you are getting near home and don't need deforst further?

Besides, safety consequence of those are not nearly as catastrophic as engine shutoff while droving 80 mph. (Ponder why they no longer offer manual shut-off of airbags.) Now, tell us one productive use of manual shutoff of engine while moving. I'm not saying there isn't one. But I sure would like to hear about it if anybody has one

[silverado]

- Because you are not driving? Because you are a detective and need to sneak behind the supspect?
- Because you don't want to mess up your wipers while going through automatic carwash?
- Because you don't have automatic defroster yet? Because you are getting near home and don't need deforst further?

Besides, safety consequence of those are not nearly as catastrophic as engine shutoff while droving 80 mph. (Ponder why they no longer offer manual shut-off of airbags.) Now, tell us one productive use of manual shutoff of engine while moving. I'm not saying there isn't one. But I sure would like to hear about it if anybody has one
A few people including myself did, but you continue to say you didn't see any. Boy, I'm tired of this and the poor horse has been dead a long time.

[phantom701]

I think most smart people will not see this Start/Stop thingy as any different from other vehicles that use a key. If this is indeed an issue for some of you, then don't buy the car. You will feel safer with a Ford or something like that.

Many luxury cars already have the Start/Stop button. And in a few years, I'm afraid some of you might not be able to drive because even Ford might put a Start/Stop button in their vehicles.

BTW, I'm so upset that the BMW doesn't prevent its drivers from crashing into other cars. This is a safety issue that BMW must resolve. :ouch:

[James]

BTW, I'm so upset that the BMW doesn't prevent its drivers from crashing into other cars. This is a safety issue that BMW must resolve. :ouch: Doesn't the cruise control radar following distance thingy prep the brakes when it thinks an impact is coming? :stickpoke :D

[obmd1]

Doesn't the cruise control radar following distance thingy prep the brakes when it thinks an impact is coming? :stickpoke :D
perhaps we can look forward to some sort of taser device, implanted in the passenger seat, to immobilize those who break the centerline of the car to reach over into the driver's space? :p

[st_o_p]

While I don't see this as an issue of a btn vs key, I'm with tksung - I'd like to hear actual reasoning for being able to turn the engine off while driving high speed. I'm sure BMW engineers have considered both ways - and decided to keep it this way for a reason (otherwise it would be scary).

FYI I have been in a car on a highway when the engine turned itself off (due to overheating) and it was a scary experience - I was lucky to be in the right lane near an exit so I just let the car drift to a stop, but at that point you lose power steering and power brakes and you feel like you practically lose control over the car. I also noticed that IT'S VERY EASY TO PUSH THE AUTO FROM DRIVE TO NEUTRAL - it just slips there (I did it once by mistake while in the fast lane); at that point you cannot put it back to Drive - that requires the brake pressed, and when you're in the left lane with fast traffic coming from behind and no engine power to the wheels - that can be extremely dangerous. I never figured why the auto is allowed to slip to Neutral without depressing the button - but I've been extremely careful ever since

BTW starting the engine does NOT require the brake pedal pressed, just the the stick in Park pos - at least in my car

[obmd1]

While I don't see this as an issue of a btn vs key, I'm with tksung - I'd like to hear actual reasoning for being able to turn the engine off while driving high speed.


aaaah.... so it is an issue that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUTTON, but with the design of EVERY CAR ON THE ROAD...

now I understand.

Rename the thread, please.

[silverado]

I think the reason why shutting the engine off is allowed is EXTREMELY simple.

Things can go wrong with machines. When things go wrong, sometimes the best thing to do is to shut them off. I cannot think of any mechanical system that can run with high power output (i.e., with the potential of a lot of damage if something goes terribly wrong) that does not have a manual shut off mechanism.

I gave a few examples above as to why disallowing it could be downright dangerous. For one, the engine catches fire after impact and your car is slowly drifting. You want to shut off the engine which should have gone off by itself but didn't (it's a machine in an accident, i.e., by definition broken... you simply cannot be 100% certain that safety electronics will continue to work). Why would you remove a last resort manual control? The argument that you will never think to do that doesn't hold water. With adrenaline rushing and with things perceived as they're happening in slow motion as is often the case, people do amazing things when their life is in danger. I can think of many others. Your car is hit badly but gear is still engaged and stuck and you are heading towards other cars, etc etc.

The supposed danger discussed here of mistakenly shutting the engine off is far outweighed by an example like the ones above.

You simply do not take away the option of shutting off a machine that puts out large amounts of power and can kill many people unless you know with 100% certainty that you will never need it. That cannot be guaranteed because you cannot think of the infinite scenarios AND have software take care of you in all situations.

Airplane engines can be shut off for god's sake.

[MysticBlue]

aaaah.... so it is an issue that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BUTTON, but with the design of EVERY CAR ON THE ROAD...

now I understand.

Rename the thread, please.
:stupid: EXACTLY.

[Broken1]

CAN I just remind everybody here. The engine doesn't just turn off at the tap of this button!
I tried it today, at 100km/h. You have to push AND HOLD the button in for a solid 1-one thousand 2-one thousand -3 onethousa (engine switches off)

I did this once or twice in my e46, flicked the key - easier to do then hold the button for 2.5 seconds by mistake!

The car still remains steerable, just not power steering...to restart...just push the button. You don't need your foot on the clutch. Car just restarts.

It's a safety feature, incase your engine is about to blow up -> you can turn it off.
I don't think anyone will do this by mistake.

In order for your passenger to do this, they would have to take their arm, strech it out behind your steering wheel and HOLD IT THERE FOR A FREAKING 2.5 SECONDS! Then, you could be like doh - you stupid passenger and restart the car. IF they decided to take the key out aswell, THE CAR WOULD STILL RESTART WITHIN 5 SECONDS!
The probability of this happening? 2 to the power of 22202165732:1 against.

GET OVER IT.

There is 100x more chance of you having a fatal car accident by human error, then anything to do with this button.

[tksung]

I
I gave a few examples above as to why disallowing it could be downright dangerous.

You mean "when you have collision or brake pedal is stuck"? And you are not satisfied with my answer? Someone already verifed how stuck pedal is dealt in a bmw. And I wouldn't be surprised if fuel shuts off automatically in case of serious collision.


Airplane engines can be shut off for god's sake.
In the air, you can't pull over to deal with engine fire. And shutting an engine off for a while is not catastrophic, even if you do it accidentally. You guys keep coming up these dumb ass examples that are irrelevant instead trying to figure out what it would be useful for.

Look, BMW engineers obviously went through length to make the feature available despite potentially catastrophic consequence. Why don't you contribute productively and see if you can figure out what the real reason would be instead of spewing BS examples? And don't bother posting another "every car has same issue" again. We already know that.

[phantom701]

Look, BMW engineers obviously went through length to make the feature available despite potentially catastrophic consequence. Why don't you contribute productively and see if you can figure out what the real reason would be instead of spewing BS examples? And don't bother posting another "every car has same issue" again. We already know that.


So what is your concern?? I have seen several good examples being posted by nice folks here, why are they bad examples?? Did you just want to know why all cars can be shut off when cruising or that you think the button is worse than having regular key??

[tksung]

The supposed danger discussed here of mistakenly shutting the engine off is far outweighed by an example like the ones above.

Now, this is something worthwhile talking about, as all designs are trade-offs. In this case, I believe it's the opposite: the danger of accidental shutdown far, far outweigh the benefit of being able to shutdown while colliding/drifting. Even if there is a real benefit, as I said earlier, vast majority won't think about turning engine off while colliding/drifting. And it's obvious BMW knew the danger of shutting engine down, based on what they did to make it difficult to shut it off. So, that's an unlikely trade-off to make. Also, if that were the reason, bmw could've made it so that you could shut it off while moving after the collision.

[obmd1]

the danger of accidental shutdown far, far outweigh the benefit of being able to shutdown while colliding/drifting. .

:bs: the chances of "an accidental shut down" are no greater with a push button than they would be with any other kid of switch... keyed, toggled, levered, or otherwise. Why is the button more prone than anything else? If you are old enough, this is the way all cars were started and stopped in early motoring, only to be chaged with theft concerns.

don't buy one.. tape your passengers hands to their laps. Instruct each of them, "now, don't touch this button that says engine on/off." (they'll be sure talking about OCD then). and for the love of mike don't play with it in traffic.

[silverado]

You mean "when you have collision or brake pedal is stuck"? And you are not satisfied with my answer? Someone already verifed how stuck pedal is dealt in a bmw. And I wouldn't be surprised if fuel shuts off automatically in case of serious collision.


In the air, you can't pull over to deal with engine fire. And shutting an engine off for a while is not catastrophic, even if you do it accidentally. You guys keep coming up these dumb ass examples that are irrelevant instead trying to figure out what it would be useful for.

Look, BMW engineers obviously went through length to make the feature available despite potentially catastrophic consequence. Why don't you contribute productively and see if you can figure out what the real reason would be instead of spewing BS examples? And don't bother posting another "every car has same issue" again. We already know that.
I would not want to drive a car where its 240 hp engine cannot be shut off in an emergency if some piece of software thinks I'm moving. Pure and simple. Engine shutoff has to be there or it's a death chamber that can careen down a road and kill me without a last resort shut off simply because of a faulty sensor. But to each his own.

As for your side of the isle, whaterver car you drive, I'm sure you can rig it such that you can prevent yourself and your passengers from shutting the engine off while the car is moving and get your peace of mind!

Have fun :thumbup:

[RichReg]

perhaps we can look forward to some sort of taser device, implanted in the passenger seat, to immobilize those who break the centerline of the car to reach over into the driver's space? :p

Dude... :rofl: ...are you sure....... :rofl:
...you're freakin' responses...... :rofl:

....ARE FUNNY ENOUGH?????
:bustingup :bustingup :bustingup

[LarryN]

This thread is hilarious!

What if some crazed passenger popped your step tranny into reverse? Then bit your right shoulder (left shoulder Down Under), spat the blood and right/left shoulder piece in your face, blinding you into not being able to control the car, as tranny gears blew through the floor at you? It could happen. ;)

[James]

This thread is hilarious!

What if some crazed passenger popped your step tranny into reverse? Then bit your right shoulder (left shoulder Down Under), spat the blood and right/left shoulder piece in your face, blinding you into not being able to control the car, as tranny gears blew through the floor at you? It could happen. ;)
It happens more then you know :eek:.

[LarryN]

It happens more then you know :eek:.

Except for the shoulder biting, I hear that you let somebody throttle your tranny.... :loco: Even I know better than that! :D ;)

[RichReg]

It happens more then you know :eek:.
Oh yeah, sure it does.
And monkeys might fly outta my butt!
:ouch:

[James]

And monkeys might fly outta my butt!
:ouch:
You need to get that looked at :D.

[James]

Except for the shoulder biting, I hear that you let somebody throttle your tranny.... :loco: Even I know better than that! :D ;)
I am going to plead the 5th lest my account get suspended :eeps:.

[RichReg]

You need to get that looked at :D.
Actually I take that back.....

And Webber or Heidfeld might win a race!
:bustingup :bustingup

[James]

And Webber or Heidfeld might win a race!
I always felt sorry for Heidfeld. Murray Walker (so take it as you like) mentioned during a race that M. Schumacher's wife is his ex girlfriend.

[tksung]

I would not want to drive a car where its 240 hp engine cannot be shut off in an emergency if some piece of software thinks I'm moving. Pure and simple.

Note that this "feature" is not even documented. It came to be known through some curious mate playing around. (If it was that important to you, I'd think you wouldn't have bought the car, thinking you couldn't shut it off while driving.) Which makes me even more curous. Why go through the length, and then don't even bother to tell people how to do it? My only guess is that they left it there just in case people like you raise hell about bimmer being a death chamber. :rofl:

[tksung]

There you go. Wonder what dumbass engineers at Infiniti were thinking when a lay poster on a Internet could figure out the solution after 15 sec of thinking.
Well, my apologies to Infiniti engineers. I just confirmed that G35 also powers down when both gas and brake pedal are pressed and it is possible to bring the car to stop without shutting engine off. So, I don't know what the heck <b>obmd1</b> was talking about. Maybe he was too busy calling Paul dumb that he hallucinated about his own experience with G35.

[RichReg]

I always felt sorry for Heidfeld. Murray Walker (so take it as you like) mentioned during a race that M. Schumacher's wife is his ex girlfriend.
He can have her.....
Coulthard has the hottest chick!....
(can't find a photo of her right now)

[silverado]

This thread is hilarious!

What if some crazed passenger popped your step tranny into reverse? Then bit your right shoulder (left shoulder Down Under), spat the blood and right/left shoulder piece in your face, blinding you into not being able to control the car, as tranny gears blew through the floor at you? It could happen. ;)
As long as they don't press the start/stop button you should be okay :D

[obmd1]

Well, my apologies to Infiniti engineers. I just confirmed that G35 also powers down when both gas and brake pedal are pressed and it is possible to bring the car to stop without shutting engine off. So, I don't know what the heck <b>obmd1</b> was talking about. Maybe he was too busy calling Paul dumb that he hallucinated about his own experience with G35.


Well..... not sure what to tell you.. guess the failsafe failed, because I came out of a toll both and was in the redline doing 90 standing on the brake. I couldn't even get it to stall in the shoulder. the only way to stop the car was to throw it in neutral (auto), which pinned the tach. So, yeah... I was sure gladd I had "The ugly side" of the on/off key.

No one's calling names. Leave it alone. Good day

[obmd1]

Note that this "feature" is not even documented. It came to be known through some curious mate playing around. (If it was that important to you, I'd think you wouldn't have bought the car, thinking you couldn't shut it off while driving.) Which makes me even more curous. Why go through the length, and then don't even bother to tell people how to do it? My only guess is that they left it there just in case people like you raise hell about bimmer being a death chamber. :rofl:


because it's obvious, that's why. Just like it was with a key. Just like you can open the door when you shouldn't but can just in case.

[CJsCar]

I recomend to those who are worried to drill a hole in the floor to the left (right for you Brits) of your seat, mount the pushbutton switch in the floor so a passenger can't get to it, get the climate comfort option, and shove the keyfob up your :bareass: so you can remote start you car.

[obmd1]

I recomend to those who are worried to drill a hole in the floor to the left (right for you Brits) of your seat, mount the pushbutton switch in the floor so a passenger can't get to it, get the climate comfort option, and shove the keyfob up your :bareass: so you can remote start you car.
:lmao: just squeeeeeze really hard to lock/unlock the car.... :rofl:

[jtrack473]

how can someone actually be concerned about a passenger pressing a button that says "ENGINE ON/OFF" while driving?! and if you manage to actually find someone with this caliber of inteligence, why would you allow them to reach ALL THE WAY next to your steering wheel and hold that button for a long time! how do the people who are concerned about this manage to drive another car with a key, where its even easier for someone to be like "hey look a key, lets turn it!" are you for real? im hoping this is one big joke because otherwise this has been the most pointless, albeit extremely entertaining, post i've ever encountered. if you actually have a problem with turning off the engine while driving, dont whine about it here. go to some other site and complain about it. this is not a "start/stop button problem," its a universal car "problem," altho i'm having difficulty actually reffering to it as one. i'm about to go pick up an ED of the 2006 e90 and am very perplexed by all this comotion. please, get over it. thank you, and please use some actual brain power before you post. :thumbdwn: :thumbdwn:

[RichReg]

how can someone actually be concerned about a passenger pressing a button that says "ENGINE ON/OFF" while driving?! and if you manage to actually find someone with this caliber of inteligence, why would you allow them to reach ALL THE WAY next to your steering wheel and hold that button for a long time! how do the people who are concerned about this manage to drive another car with a key, where its even easier for someone to be like "hey look a key, lets turn it!" are you for real?

Like I said:
An illiterate passenger with an obsessive compulsive disorder.

Maybe BMW will offer special seat-covers for these types of people that come equipped with a strait-jacket? :dunno:

[tksung]

because it's obvious, that's why.
Oh, right. you couldn't save your ass by throwing gear into neutral in your fictional G35. Yet, you'd instinctively know to hold down Start button for 2-3 sec to stop the car while your life flashes by before your eyes.
:rofl:

[obmd1]

Oh, right. you couldn't save your ass by throwing gear into neutral in your fictional G35. Yet, you'd instinctively know to hold down Start button for 2-3 sec to stop the car while your life flashes by before your eyes.
:rofl:
Thank god I did have that option, or with that crappy g35 reving to the limiter I would certainly have thrown a rod on the Jersey Turnpike.

Believe what you want; I have no reason to try to impress you. No one has been able to point out the substantive difference between the button and the key, and that's the whole damn point.

[calvado]

A button is what a girl has on her breasts and a key is what you have between your legs...

Enough said

[obmd1]

A button is what a girl has on her breasts and a key is what you have between your legs...

Enough said
:confused: so where is the comfort access?

[calvado]

The butt... that's where you put your head when you're tired :)