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InspireSiR
08-13-2005, 08:11 PM
I was over on m3forum.net and there was a thread asking if people are going to keep their E46M3 or trade for an E90M3.

Someone posted that he will keep his E46 since it is the last year with the inline 6 motor.

Is there a reason someone would prefer an inline 6 design instead of a V8 with 60-100 more hp? Or is this just a case of an E46 M3 owner having buyer's remorse? (Excuse to keep his current car than trade when the time comes) :dunno:

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-13-2005, 08:15 PM
It's silliness. The E46 M3 needs somethign more like an LS7. It's WAY too heavy to to use the gutless wonders BMW likes.

bimmerguy
08-13-2005, 09:34 PM
It's silliness. The E46 M3 needs somethign more like an LS7. It's WAY too heavy to to use the gutless wonders BMW likes.

Hey Nick, if its so gutless and heavy, why the hell do you drive one... on the track of all places? Maybe you should go get a real track car... like a vette.... :)

16hr Day
08-14-2005, 12:00 PM
I was over on m3forum.net and there was a thread asking if people are going to keep their E46M3 or trade for an E90M3.

Someone posted that he will keep his E46 since it is the last year with the inline 6 motor.

Is there a reason someone would prefer an inline 6 design instead of a V8 with 60-100 more hp? Or is this just a case of an E46 M3 owner having buyer's remorse? (Excuse to keep his current car than trade when the time comes) :dunno:

dude. You drive a Honda. I plan to keep mine. :D

InspireSiR
08-14-2005, 12:26 PM
Sorry, I didn't change my profile. I now drive a 2002 540i.

But I plan to trade it in a year or two for an E46 or E90. That's part of the reason I was asking the original question.

Is an inline 6 design better than a V8? I've heard the 6 is smoother than anything else. But then again, Ferrari uses V8's. What gives?

rommelrules
08-14-2005, 01:20 PM
Is an inline 6 design better than a V8? I've heard the 6 is smoother than anything else. But then again, Ferrari uses V8's. What gives?

I'm sure it's about results and performance.
I don't think one design is necessarily better than the other.
If BMW was capable of keeping the car competitive in its class
with an inline six like Porsche does, then I'm sure the E90 M3 would
not be upgrading to a V8.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not seem
to be the case, for whatever reasons.

The E46 M3 inline six was a failure in professional racing.
The E46 M3 V8 GTR was a clear winner on the track until it was all but banned.
And that's on a car that wasn't even designed for a V8 engine. So the design works fine...

Personally, I prefer larger engines. Nothing like torque.

bimmerguy
08-14-2005, 01:34 PM
I'm sure it's about results and performance.
I don't think one design is necessarily better than the other.
If BMW was capable of keeping the car competitive in its class
with an inline six like Porsche does, then I'm sure the E90 M3 would
not be upgrading to a V8.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not seem
to be the case, for whatever reasons.

The E46 M3 inline six was a failure in professional racing.
The E46 M3 V8 GTR was a clear winner on the track until it was all but banned.
And that's on a car that wasn't even designed for a V8 engine. So the design works fine...

Personally, I prefer larger engines. Nothing like torque.

Interesting, why did you purchase the M3 when its clearly not a high torque motor?

rommelrules
08-14-2005, 03:34 PM
Interesting, why did you purchase the M3 when its clearly not a high torque motor?

A) Wanted to do a Euro Delivery. Audi doesn't offer it. Mercedes has no stick shift.
Porsche charges a high premium. Saab and Volvo-- no comment.

B) In its price range, nothing comes close to the M3.
Sure, I'd take a 997S (even though it's not a monstrous V8) over the M3, but, alas, they're not in the same price range.
Given reason A), buying used was not an option.

C) There are other cars with higher torque (Corvette Z06, M5)
but then I would have had to compromise in all the other areas I love about the M3.

D) It may not be a high torque motor, but compared to my E36 M3, the E46 M3 feels like a V8.
Sure, I could get an S4 with the V8, but then I'd miss the handling and the raw feeling.

Besides I have a V8 All Road, when I want to get my torque fix.
I believe it's the same engine as the S4, just detuned because of tranny issues.

Does this answer your question? :)

Pinecone
08-14-2005, 03:35 PM
Currnt inline 6 has an upper limit on displacement due to bore spacing. And to even get that, you end up with a very long stroke.

So, it ended up a ground up redesign of the I-6, or chop 2 cylinders off of the V-10 to make a V-8. MUCH cheaper R&D.

As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.

And Porsche did do a V-8 in the 928.

As for the question, which is better, the answer is none and all. It depends on what you are trying to accomplish, and what your limitations are.

bimmerguy
08-14-2005, 04:48 PM
A) Wanted to do a Euro Delivery. Audi doesn't offer it. Mercedes has no stick shift.
Porsche charges a high premium. Saab and Volvo-- no comment.

B) In its price range, nothing comes close to the M3.
Sure, I'd take a 997S (even though it's not a monstrous V8) over the M3, but, alas, they're not in the same price range.
Given reason A), buying used was not an option.

C) There are other cars with higher torque (Corvette Z06, M5)
but then I would have had to compromise in all the other areas I love about the M3.

D) It may not be a high torque motor, but compared to my E36 M3, the E46 M3 feels like a V8.
Sure, I could get an S4 with the V8, but then I'd miss the handling and the raw feeling.

Besides I have a V8 All Road, when I want to get my torque fix.
I believe it's the same engine as the S4, just detuned because of tranny issues.

Does this answer your question? :)


Uh.... yes :)

I agree, M3 certainly hits the "sweet spot", thats why I bought one. I also like the fact that its a high revving six pushing that kind of HP normally aspirated.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-14-2005, 05:24 PM
Hey Nick, if its so gutless and heavy, why the hell do you drive one... on the track of all places? Maybe you should go get a real track car... like a vette.... :)
I wanted a back seat. I still regret not keeping my wagon and buying a Z06, though.

bimmerguy
08-14-2005, 05:51 PM
I wanted a back seat. I still regret not keeping my wagon and buying a Z06, though.


Wow..... I guess you really don't like your M3..... well you could always get rid of it.

I think the steering on vettes feels numb, so that alone kills it for me.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-14-2005, 09:28 PM
Wow..... I guess you really don't like your M3..... well you could always get rid of it.

I think the steering on vettes feels numb, so that alone kills it for me.
The M3 is a great commuter vehicle. I just expected it to be something that it absolutely isn't, no matter what the badge claims.

j2
08-14-2005, 10:14 PM
As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.


So the F2004 Formula One car with a V10 isn't a Real Ferrari? :dunno:

LinkF1
08-15-2005, 07:42 AM
To me there is somthing about an inline six that seperates it from any type of V engine, there is a certain smoothness you get that is especially evident at idle. The inline six cylinder makes for a fairly balanced engine front to back as well as side to side. The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts. But then there is the sound of a BMW I6 I am only 19 and I can recognize it the second I hear one... especially the Ms (Family owns 7 BMW I6s between 3 brothers, 2 S52s, 2 S54s). But having said all of these things I would have to see and hear the V8 in action to really be able to decide which one will be my dream car, the M3 or the M2 (which should have a I6 in it).

16hr Day
08-15-2005, 06:44 PM
To me there is somthing about an inline six that seperates it from any type of V engine, there is a certain smoothness you get that is especially evident at idle. The inline six cylinder makes for a fairly balanced engine front to back as well as side to side. The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts. But then there is the sound of a BMW I6 I am only 19 and I can recognize it the second I hear one... especially the Ms (Family owns 7 BMW I6s between 3 brothers, 2 S52s, 2 S54s). But having said all of these things I would have to see and hear the V8 in action to really be able to decide which one will be my dream car, the M3 or the M2 (which should have a I6 in it).

so this is about sound? change the muffler. Heck, go with a glass pack. That will be loud.

LinkF1
08-15-2005, 09:29 PM
so this is about sound? change the muffler. Heck, go with a glass pack. That will be loud.
Its not a loud... it a mechanical sound I dont know how to explain it all I know is it is unique, just like the sound of a flat 6 in a porsche.

Pinecone
08-16-2005, 05:55 AM
So the F2004 Formula One car with a V10 isn't a Real Ferrari? :dunno:

OK< real Ferrari ROAD cars. :)

dawgbone
08-16-2005, 08:46 AM
Until the e46, the 3 series never really needed a v8...But because of the excessive weight that the m3 took on, I'd say that it should have happened with the e46...And not to say that the power to weight was phenomenal in the e36, or e30 4cyl...But the engines were slightly tunable, to get you where you wanted to be...

I'm an idiot, and I cannot get enough HP..I'll only adapt and feed for more..I think the MB SL65 that my old man just purchased, has finally got me where I would want to be...from 60 and onward, the car just will not give up...the torque is so high, and so flat throughout all RPM's, it's ridiculous..But it too takes on some weight, and has a slight issue with traction...But now were talking $200k and twin turbo'd V12...I'd guess you'd have to turn to Williams to get anything close to that out of BMW...

Although the E46 M3 does have a small power vs. weight issue(in terms of TQ)..We are fortunate for RPM's(VANOS)..in which the S54 needs to produce HP...Kinda like a comparison between a two stroke and a four stroke...Big, bulky, torquey beast..Vs...a small, in your face screamer...

The CSL may be the perfect car for me...IF they were readily available in the U.S. and were offered with a 6spd manual...Either way...I wouldn't know, being I don't see too many around these parts...

To me, a z06 takes over where BMW stopped, but BMW fills in, where GM forgot...

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 08:48 AM
Until the e46, the 3 series never really needed a v8...But because of the excessive weight that the m3 took on, I'd say that it should have happened with the e46...And not to say that the power to weight was phenomenal in the e36, or e30 4cyl...But the engines were slightly tunable, to get you where you wanted to be...

I'm an idiot, and I cannot get enough HP..I'll only adapt and feed for more..I think the MB SL65 that my old man just purchased, has finally got me where I would want to be...from 60 and onward, the car just will not give up...the torque is so high, and so flat throughout all RPM's, it's ridiculous..But it too takes on some weight, and has a slight issue with traction...But now were talking $200k and twin turbo'd V12...I'd guess you'd have to turn to Williams to get anything close to that out of BMW...

Although the E46 M3 does have a small power vs. weight issue(in terms of TQ)..We are fortunate for RPM's(VANOS)..in which the S54 needs to produce HP...Kinda like a comparison between a two stroke and a four stroke...Big, bulky, torquey beast..Vs...a small, in your face screamer...

The CSL may be the perfect car for me...IF they were readily available in the U.S. and were offered with a 6spd manual...Either way...I wouldn't know, being I don't see too many around these parts...

To me, a z06 takes over where BMW stopped, but BMW fills in, where GM forgot...
It's just too bad that BMW won't outsource a nice SBC for the M3.

dawgbone
08-16-2005, 09:32 AM
It's just too bad that BMW won't outsource a nice SBC for the M3.

I'm not too good with all of these acronyms...SBC in terms of:

Mercedes= a wierd braking controller/system(SL-SLR)
forced induction= a wierd boost controller
my best guess is=short/small block conversion

If you're talking about the later...then I would completely agree..make it a lightweight v8 conversion...in fact, I think I read about one, using the M5 diff...

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 09:33 AM
Small Block Chevy. :)

Desertnate
08-16-2005, 09:54 AM
Small Block Chevy. :)

If they could only build a car other than the Vette which is truly worthy of that engine.

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 10:40 AM
Man, if 333 Hp is not enough, maybe you guys should sell your M3s and go out and get a dragster. :)

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 10:43 AM
Man, if 333 Hp is not enough, maybe you guys should sell your M3s and go out and get a dragster. :)
When you have to compete with Corvettes and Vipers in a 3400lbs. car, the M3 engine is BADLY overmatched.

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 10:49 AM
When you have to compete with Corvettes and Vipers in a 3400lbs. car, the M3 engine is BADLY overmatched.

Why would 6s compete with V8s and V10s in the same class?

I know how you feel about the M3 rack.... I could just imagine what you'd be saying about the vette.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 10:54 AM
Why would 6s compete with V8s and V10s in the same class?

I know how you feel about the M3 rack.... I could just imagine what you'd be saying about the vette.
Price, to a large degree.

And I wouldn't have a really good reason to complain about the 'vette's rack. There is NO EXCUSE for putting the **** steering rack in the M3, when EVERY OTHER 3'er gets a good one.

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 10:59 AM
Well...... I really like the rack on my ZCP, much better than the standard M3.

My X5 rack feels less boosted and slightly heavier tho.

dawgbone
08-16-2005, 12:02 PM
Man, if 333 Hp is not enough, maybe you guys should sell your M3s and go out and get a dragster. :)

If at the rear wheel...then maybe...The M3 is a awesome machine....and has a pretty nice 0-60...but it takes so long to achieve good speed from then on..in which is the i6 vs. v8 comparison...the 6 cyl just does not have the tq to get it to redline fast enough anywhere after 1st gear...

Fact is...despite how much I love this car...the weight is more prevelant than that of it's power...or lack of

...and more so, it'll take on 911's....but that's not much to brag about, when you're in the rear view of a Z06...

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 02:52 PM
If at the rear wheel...then maybe...The M3 is a awesome machine....and has a pretty nice 0-60...but it takes so long to achieve good speed from then on..in which is the i6 vs. v8 comparison...the 6 cyl just does not have the tq to get it to redline fast enough anywhere after 1st gear...

Fact is...despite how much I love this car...the weight is more prevelant than that of it's power...or lack of

...and more so, it'll take on 911's....but that's not much to brag about, when you're in the rear view of a Z06...


Enjoy your Vette..... then you'll be bitchin on how it depreciates like a rock...or steering has no feedback :)

If you are looking to win street races, yes you bought wrong.

dawgbone
08-16-2005, 03:22 PM
Enjoy your Vette..... then you'll be bitchin on how it depreciates like a rock...or steering has no feedback :)

If you are looking to win street races, yes you bought wrong.

Don't own one...nor would I buy one...I think they are genuine SH%$..to tell you the truth..I would love to take one to the track and hammer the crap out of it until it died... though...

You don't have to tell me what's wrong with it...I can give a good guess...Hell I own a Chevy..47k miles and it idles like a paint shaker..oversteer is insanely annoying at high speeds..Although my chevy is a truck...it's a characteristic of all GM and Ford to have this rediculous oversteer and always has been..But it's a truck and that's why I bought it..And it does well as such..minus my anal opinion about domestic car makers...

My complaint from the vettes that I have drove, is that I never felt connected to the car, especially after I sat in my e46 m....hense the uncomfort of oversteer and the obicity of the car in general...

But it's fact, a vette will outperform an M3 street or track...in all categories(accel..braking..G rate)

I just wish their was a little more a$$ in the S54...I think 333 on the pavement would have been enough...

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 03:35 PM
Don't own one...nor would I buy one...I think they are genuine SH%$..to tell you the truth..I would love to take one to the track and hammer the crap out of it until it died... though...

You don't have to tell me what's wrong with it...I can give a good guess...Hell I own a Chevy..47k miles and it idles like a paint shaker..oversteer is insanely annoying at high speeds..Although my chevy is a truck...it's a characteristic of all GM and Ford to have this rediculous oversteer and always has been..But it's a truck and that's why I bought it..And it does well as such..minus my anal opinion about domestic car makers...

My complaint from the vettes that I have drove, is that I never felt connected to the car, especially after I sat in my e46 m....hense the uncomfort of oversteer and the obicity of the car in general...

But it's fact, a vette will outperform an M3 street or track...in all categories(accel..braking..G rate)

I just wish their was a little more a$$ in the S54...I think 333 on the pavement would have been enough...

hehe..... just go do a couple of "Launch Controls" and give us a post in the morning..... :)
That is, if ya have SMG....

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 03:40 PM
hehe..... just go do a couple of "Launch Controls" and give us a post in the morning..... :)
That is, if ya have SMG....
Launch control is one of my biggest complaints with SMG. It SUCKS. It's only useful because it's better than grandma and burnout launches. I can launch my 323i better.

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 03:42 PM
Launch control is one of my biggest complaints with SMG. It SUCKS. It's only useful because it's better than grandma and burnout launches. I can launch my 323i better.

Nick, your door is open....

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 03:50 PM
Nick, your door is open....
No, I've invested far too much time and money into getting the M3 to drive halfway decently. You're not getting rid of me now.

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 04:09 PM
No, I've invested far too much time and money into getting the M3 to drive halfway decently. You're not getting rid of me now.

I meant on your Sig. pic....hehe

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 04:11 PM
I meant on your Sig. pic....hehe
Well, I wouldn't know which one you're seeing. :p

Alex Baumann
08-16-2005, 04:24 PM
Man, if 333 Hp is not enough, maybe you guys should sell your M3s and go out and get a dragster. :)

If you are a car freak, you can never have enough horsepower. It's infective.

bimmerguy
08-16-2005, 05:04 PM
If you are a car freak, you can never have enough horsepower. It's infective.

I'm just trying to break-in my M3 in peace....

At least you live in autobahn land where HP still roams free.

Frank Rizzo
08-18-2005, 08:06 AM
Nick cracks me up - because he has the "Emporer has no clothes" atitude. I'm thinking what he's saying.

I tested a C55 last week...and the 376 lb-ft puts a big grin on my face.

bimmerguy
08-18-2005, 08:23 AM
Nick cracks me up - because he has the "Emporer has no clothes" atitude. I'm thinking what he's saying.

I tested a C55 last week...and the 376 lb-ft puts a big grin on my face.


:rofl:

Plaz
08-18-2005, 08:24 AM
If you are a car freak, you can never have enough horsepower. It's infective.

Infectious. :eeps:

bimmerguy
08-18-2005, 08:40 AM
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin infectivus, from inficere ‘to taint’ (see infect ) :)

jaydoc1
08-18-2005, 11:30 AM
Current car: 325i--Nobody with an M3 should be complaining about HP

Next year's car: E46 M3 (or I might wait for the new M3 to come out and then buy an E46 M3 when the price drops.

Problem: 333 HP isn't enough?

Answer: Dinan S3 supercharger package. For only $22,000 you can have 450+ HP from your M3's inline 6.

Will I really do it? Doubtful, but at least I know the potential, the expensive potential is there for over-the-top HP out of the E46 M3.

dawgbone
08-18-2005, 12:01 PM
Current car: 325i--Nobody with an M3 should be complaining about HP

Next year's car: E46 M3 (or I might wait for the new M3 to come out and then buy an E46 M3 when the price drops.

Problem: 333 HP isn't enough?

Answer: Dinan S3 supercharger package. For only $22,000 you can have 450+ HP from your M3's inline 6.

Will I really do it? Doubtful, but at least I know the potential, the expensive potential is there for over-the-top HP out of the E46 M3.

What's your point? So I would have to scrounge up another 22k to get 450hp..Not saying much when you compare overall price of the Z06 vs a warranty voiding modded M3, especially when it doesn't even exceed the vettes 500'ish hp...Not to mention the $100k'ish S/C'd vette in the pipeline...

I'd probably never buy a vette...and I love the M3 for what it is..but in it's class, it sure is lagging behind...

rommelrules
08-18-2005, 12:13 PM
Sinking $22K in an M3 is downright ridiculous. :tsk:
I love M3's (heck, I have two...) but I would never put that much money into one.

There are better and faster cars out there that you can buy new.
And if you can drop an extra $22K into a car, then the "I need the extra two seats" argument is not going to fly...

TeenerPaul
08-20-2005, 12:18 PM
As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.


BS. The "Best Ferrari EVER" is the F40 and it has a V8. Total posers car but people like it. Real Ferraris are loud and break a lot those are the only requirements. :D

Paul

Alex Baumann
08-20-2005, 01:51 PM
Infectious. :eeps:

Sorry for the shameful OT :eek:

Plaz, I have checked the dictionary, both are listed as adjectives, but I'll trust you on this one :)

Alex Baumann
08-20-2005, 02:05 PM
BS. The "Best Ferrari EVER" is the F40 and it has a V8. Total posers car but people like it. Real Ferraris are loud and break a lot those are the only requirements. :D

Paul

And 2 turbos :)

But I agree with Pinecone, real Ferraris have V12s. The V6 and V8 era started with the Dino and the rest of the group (208/308,348,355 and so on)

The statement that Ferraris are loud and break a lot is so true. The most adventureous part is to find an old school mechanic, who really knows how to adjust the valves on those V12s. AFAIK, there are only 3 or 4 people in Germany.

SteveT
08-20-2005, 03:44 PM
And 2 turbos :)

But I agree with Pinecone, real Ferraris have V12s. The V6 and V8 era started with the Dino and the rest of the group (208/308,348,355 and so on)

The statement that Ferraris are loud and break a lot is so true. The most adventureous part is to find an old school mechanic, who really knows how to adjust the valves on those V12s. AFAIK, there are only 3 or 4 people in Germany.

What about flat 12's? The flat 12 in the 70's was one of the nicest sounding engines in F1. We used to try to go through the garage at Watkins Glen just to hear them start a new engine and run it in. It was sweet. The V10's sound good, but it's nice to have different sounds.

Alex Baumann
08-20-2005, 04:08 PM
What about flat 12's? The flat 12 in the 70's was one of the nicest sounding engines in F1. We used to try to go through the garage at Watkins Glen just to hear them start a new engine and run it in. It was sweet. The V10's sound good, but it's nice to have different sounds.

Very interesting layout. The longtitudinally mid-mounted flat 12 in the 365 GT4 BB was one of the finest engines back then (0-60 in 5.3 secs, over 175mph top-speed). All flat 12s were F1 derivations, as you mentioned.

I agree that V10 is nice, but the 12-pack has something special.

Pinecone
08-22-2005, 10:00 AM
Actually I think I said that real Ferraris have 12 cylinder engines, I did not limit it to V engines.

But anyway, a flat engine is still a V engine, just one with 180 degrees between banks. :)

SteveT
08-22-2005, 05:57 PM
Actually I think I said that real Ferraris have 12 cylinder engines, I did not limit it to V engines.

But anyway, a flat engine is still a V engine, just one with 180 degrees between banks. :)

I can buy that. Always love the sound whether it's a V or not.

andy_thomas
08-26-2005, 07:03 AM
I'd probably never buy a vette...and I love the M3 for what it is..but in it's class, it sure is lagging behind...
Depends on how you define the class. Against hi-volume American cars which aren't really sold anywhere else other than North America, sure, it will always lag behind in power and price. I don't even think the 'Vette (a Corvette, right?) is even sold in Europe any more. (Alex? Anyone from France, Italy etc.?) Against its domestic (which would German) competitors, now Audi and AMG have updated their cars, it's time for BMW to do reset the bar.

The closest available big-block competitor to the M3 is the Monaro 6l. Even with 400 bhp and a million torques, it struggles to keep up even in a straight line and doesn't go round bends too well (1,800 kg and Town Car suspension see to that). But the predilection for going sideways, and the lazy power, definitely has appeal for *some* people.

BTW the CTS V8 (400 bhp?) is coming to Europe sometime soon, but the UK list price is around £50k, and the price in European markets won't be much less. So, that won't be lasting long on the price lists, then...

GSIRM3
08-26-2005, 01:35 PM
Actually I think I said that real Ferraris have 12 cylinder engines, I did not limit it to V engines.

But anyway, a flat engine is still a V engine, just one with 180 degrees between banks. :)

So, how do you figure that a flat engine with 180 degress between the banks is a "V" configuration? Why do you guess they call it "flat" instead of "V"?

Alex Baumann
08-26-2005, 02:04 PM
So, how do you figure that a flat engine with 180 degress between the banks is a "V" configuration? Why do you guess they call it "flat" instead of "V"?

The difference is that flat engines has one crank per pin while in the V-180° engine two pistons share the same crank pin.

GSIRM3
08-26-2005, 03:38 PM
The difference is that flat engines has one crank per pin while in the V-180° engine two pistons share the same crank pin.

That is exactly my point, a flat engine is not a V.

Alex Baumann
08-26-2005, 03:40 PM
That is exactly my point, a flat engine is not a V.

That's why Ferrari cracks don't like the term 'boxer' when someone refers to a Ferrari engine, because they associate boxer with a Porsche :)

Pinecone
08-26-2005, 05:13 PM
Actually you can have V engiens with one piston per crank arm, and flat engines can have 2 per crank arm.

A flat engine is just a specific case of a V engine. It would be a bit of a stretch though to call an inline a 0 degree V. :)

DaKine
08-28-2005, 04:24 PM
As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.

I have to disagree. Aside from the Enzo and the F50 (which are full on, 200mph+ supercars) not many Ferrari's have a v12. The 360 and the F430 have a v8, and both of them are well respected by just about anyone who likes Ferraris.

I do see what you are saying though... there is something about a Ferrari with a 12 cylinder motor. I've been lucky enough to see two Enzo's in person, and they sound AMAZING. Its like nothing I have ever heard or seen. Just by the sound, you can tell there something unique under the hood (or whatever you'd call it)

Pinecone
08-29-2005, 06:23 AM
Too many, NONE of the newer Ferraris are REAL Ferraris. No 12s. Me, I will take any of them. :)

DaKine
08-29-2005, 01:52 PM
Too many, NONE of the newer Ferraris are REAL Ferraris. No 12s. Me, I will take any of them. :)

Thats too bad, but I guess a lot of the old school die-hards don't like change. I guess thats the same with any of us, I can't stand many of the new Bangle designed BMWs.

I agree 100%, I would be more than happy to take any of the Ferrari's, haha. I saw a few of the new F430's the other day... they are GORGEOUS. Take care.

99flhr
09-02-2005, 06:27 AM
[QUOTE=LinkF1 The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts.[/QUOTE]

???? :confused:

Andre Yew
09-02-2005, 04:06 PM
The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts.

???? :confused:

The I6 has a longer crankshaft which means its torsional harmonic modes (standing waves on the shaft in the rotating direction) start at lower RPMs, which limits the max RPM you can safely drive it. When you limit RPMs, you limit potential horsepower since HP is proportional to RPMs.

I like the faux Ferrari V8s because they're one of the few flat-plane crankshafts, hence their unique sound compared to the cross-plane burbles you hear from American V8s and the M5 engine. The Ferrari GTs like the 575s are also V12s.

--Andre

flashinthepan
09-02-2005, 04:16 PM
If the V8 M3 is an improvement in performance & pretty looking - I imagine I will be interested...but sure glad I have had my current M3 to keep the runs to the grocery store interesting :D

99flhr
09-07-2005, 08:04 AM
The I6 has a longer crankshaft which means its torsional harmonic modes (standing waves on the shaft in the rotating direction) start at lower RPMs, which limits the max RPM you can safely drive it. When you limit RPMs, you limit potential horsepower since HP is proportional to RPMs

--Andre

And a 12 (V or flat) shares this length issue and yet many 12`s rev to the moon ( F-1 cars @ 17,000rpm) and make huge power. I have heard of torsional twisting being an issue in huge V-12 WWII
aero engines, of course at 27 liters the length of the engine was extreme! So while I understand the concept, I`m not sure it`s an issue with "car sized" displacements.

Andre Yew
09-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Yes, but an F1 crankshaft is quite different than anything we see on the road. Exotic materials, 1-race construction (in the days of the V12), and other non-mass produceable techniques can push up the the torsion mode frequencies.

--Andre

LinkF1
09-07-2005, 04:17 PM
As well as the fact that you dont get 6 liter F1 V12s like you do in road cars. The displacement of those high-revving engines in no where as big as you see in road cars. And those F1 cars dont have to have nearly as much torque to get moving seeing as they weigh so little.

Pinecone
09-07-2005, 06:13 PM
And a 12 (V or flat) shares this length issue and yet many 12`s rev to the moon ( F-1 cars @ 17,000rpm) and make huge power. I have heard of torsional twisting being an issue in huge V-12 WWII
aero engines, of course at 27 liters the length of the engine was extreme! So while I understand the concept, I`m not sure it`s an issue with "car sized" displacements.

The much shorter stroke helps a lot. Less lever arm for torque.

The old inline 8s had a lot of trouble with this.

EdCT
09-07-2005, 07:53 PM
If the V8 M3 is an improvement in performance & pretty looking - I imagine I will be interested...but sure glad I have had my current M3 to keep the runs to the grocery store interesting :D

"Improvement in performance"?

Oh it'll be faster alright, with the new car, you'll be able to slam yourself into a bridge abutment at, say, 160 mph or greater (if they remove the speed governor) instead of a paltry 145 to 150 mph.

You'll die just as quickly, but the rescue crews will have to search a wider area for your body parts; I'm sure they'll be pleased. :tsk:

Ed

Pinecone
09-08-2005, 12:41 PM
"Improvement in performance"?

Oh it'll be faster alright, with the new car, you'll be able to slam yourself into a bridge abutment at, say, 160 mph or greater (if they remove the speed governor) instead of a paltry 145 to 150 mph.

You'll die just as quickly, but the rescue crews will have to search a wider area for your body parts; I'm sure they'll be pleased. :tsk:

Ed

Yep, someone who is jealous of those owning M cars. :)

If you didn't know, performance is more than about top speed. In fact, to many, top speed in a LONG striaght line is meaningless. Now top speed on a given straight at a given track, now THAT means something.

EdCT
09-08-2005, 04:42 PM
Yep, someone who is jealous of those owning M cars. :)

If you didn't know, performance is more than about top speed. In fact, to many, top speed in a LONG striaght line is meaningless. Now top speed on a given straight at a given track, now THAT means something.

Ummmm, owning an M car would not be a problem for me ;)

I guess the satire didn't quite translate: I'm against putting so much horsepower and top speed in the hands of the average dingbat; you know, the guys who show up at autocrosses and driving schools who actually believe they could be professional race car drivers one day.

Ed

SteveT
09-08-2005, 08:59 PM
Ummmm, owning an M car would not be a problem for me ;)

I guess the satire didn't quite translate: I'm against putting so much horsepower and top speed in the hands of the average dingbat; you know, the guys who show up at autocrosses and driving schools who actually believe they could be professional race car drivers one day.

Ed

I think this would be quite the opposite. Those who don't involve themselves in autocrosses and driving schools are more likely to be unable to handle their M car. Enjoying the capability of an automobile has nothing to do with becoming a professional driver. At the same time, the schools enhance one's appreciation for those who race.

EdCT
09-08-2005, 10:04 PM
I think this would be quite the opposite. Those who don't involve themselves in autocrosses and driving schools are more likely to be unable to handle their M car. Enjoying the capability of an automobile has nothing to do with becoming a professional driver. At the same time, the schools enhance one's appreciation for those who race.

I understand your point and I agree (for the most part) many folks who attend drivers' schools are more likely to be somewhat cautious and appreciative of a car's limits. As a veteran of two Skip Barber schools I know I am.

However, your second point is perhaps the one to be concerned about; that is, the folks who'll buy these things who have no interest in schools and learning,only to stomp the gas pedal on the local parkways and back roads, feeling as if the car handles "like it's on rails" etc.

I just hope I'm not coming the other way, especially with teens behind the wheel or when these cars become cheap enough for their second and third owners.

The horsepower race, imo, is bad news, most amateurs can have plenty of fun with cars of far less power than what is currently the craze, I mean really, is the current M3 too timid, too "underpowered", too much of a poor handler? I don't think so, I think a lot of male testosterone and bravado is driving the "I need and must have a V8 in my next M3.....it's stupid.

Anyway, this is just my opinion and it makes no difference; the horsepower race will continue........

Ed

fm_illuminatus
09-09-2005, 02:17 AM
I'm sure it's about results and performance.
I don't think one design is necessarily better than the other.
If BMW was capable of keeping the car competitive in its class
with an inline six like Porsche does, then I'm sure the E90 M3 would
not be upgrading to a V8.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not seem
to be the case, for whatever reasons.

The E46 M3 inline six was a failure in professional racing.
The E46 M3 V8 GTR was a clear winner on the track until it was all but banned.
And that's on a car that wasn't even designed for a V8 engine. So the design works fine...

Personally, I prefer larger engines. Nothing like torque.

Wait, why was the GTR "all but banned"?

Andre Yew
09-09-2005, 12:25 PM
The GTR used a V8 that Porsche complained wasn't properly homologated, and even if it was, was against the spirit of the rules, which apparently only supported 6-cylinder engines. Or something like that.

Perhaps the most important reason was that the GTR was kicking Porsche butt left and right.

--Andre

Nick325xiT 5spd
09-09-2005, 12:33 PM
The GTR used a V8 that Porsche complained wasn't properly homologated, and even if it was, was against the spirit of the rules, which apparently only supported 6-cylinder engines. Or something like that.

Perhaps the most important reason was that the GTR was kicking Porsche butt left and right.

--Andre
The other reason is that Porsche has an extensive customer racing program and BMW barely has one at all.

Frank Rizzo
09-10-2005, 11:22 PM
I understand your point and I agree (for the most part) many folks who attend drivers' schools are more likely to be somewhat cautious and appreciative of a car's limits. As a veteran of two Skip Barber schools I know I am.

However, your second point is perhaps the one to be concerned about; that is, the folks who'll buy these things who have no interest in schools and learning,only to stomp the gas pedal on the local parkways and back roads, feeling as if the car handles "like it's on rails" etc.

I just hope I'm not coming the other way, especially with teens behind the wheel or when these cars become cheap enough for their second and third owners.

The horsepower race, imo, is bad news, most amateurs can have plenty of fun with cars of far less power than what is currently the craze, I mean really, is the current M3 too timid, too "underpowered", too much of a poor handler? I don't think so, I think a lot of male testosterone and bravado is driving the "I need and must have a V8 in my next M3.....it's stupid.

Anyway, this is just my opinion and it makes no difference; the horsepower race will continue........

Ed


Me too!!!

I secretly pine for the days of 1981, when the Corvette had a respectable 165 HP.


..

99flhr
09-11-2005, 07:23 AM
Me too!!!

I secretly pine for the days of 1981, when the Corvette had a respectable 165 HP.


.. FWIW that was 1975, by 81 it was a stellar 190HP

SteveT
09-11-2005, 07:43 AM
The other reason is that Porsche has an extensive customer racing program and BMW barely has one at all.

The ACO was also unhappy that BMW did not run the cars at LeMans that year. However, if you remember the engine mapping wasn't really worked out at that point and they were putting fires out in the exhaust at the pit stops. The car wasn't ready for a 24 hour race at all.

Pinecone
09-11-2005, 06:26 PM
The GTR used a V8 that Porsche complained wasn't properly homologated, and even if it was, was against the spirit of the rules, which apparently only supported 6-cylinder engines. Or something like that.

Perhaps the most important reason was that the GTR was kicking Porsche butt left and right.

--Andre

You mean like several cars and engiens that Porsche has raced without proper homolgation? There was no "spirit of the rules" there were the rules.

SteveT
09-11-2005, 06:52 PM
You mean like several cars and engiens that Porsche has raced without proper homolgation? There was no "spirit of the rules" there were the rules.

I haven't seen anyone comment on David Haueter's (Seneca) article on the McLaren F1 GTR in the October issue of Bimmer Magazine. It's an excellent article with (of course) fine pictures of a beautiful car. His comments there are relevant here. David comments there about the changes in the 1996 European GT series where the "BPR rulemakers allowed the Porsche 911 GT1 to compete in the series. Unlike the clearly road-based McLaren, Ferrari F40 and the Lotus Esprit, the 911 GT1 was obviously a purpose-built race car that wasn't offered for sale to the public and had little in common with the 911 road car." This was what caused Gordon Murray to create the GTR. David quotes from Murray's book, "Driving Ambition". BTW, it's an excellent book I just got it from Amazon.

Many people (including BMW) had absolutely no sympathy for Porche's whining about the V8 in the M3 GTR.

Thanks David for a great article.

theslik1
09-13-2005, 08:08 AM
Personally, I admire BMW for sticking with the straight 6 for as long as they have, and they could still be competitive with it in the M3 if they wished. They could go turbo, a la Toyota's 3.0L 2JZ-GTE (Supra) or Nissan's 2.6L RB26DETT (Skyline). Both are straight 6's and can handle obscene amounts of horsepower for the displacement. I'm sure everybody here knows how much power you can get with ridiculously few mods on those engines. 500whp is no big whoop for a turbo Supra or Skyline. BMW could engineer a turbo solution that would compare favorably with both of those...the long stroke plus forced induction would meet horsepower requirements and be *just* torquey enough to compete against larger V-8's, and it would be lighter. Apparently weight reduction isn't a priority anymore, and I have to admit that the Supra and Skyline were both heavy cars (luxury features, AWD gear on the Skyline, etc). I wish BMW would at least explore the option but apparently they want to leave forced induction to the aftermarket, which I understand (to a point).

All IMHO.

Nick325xiT 5spd
09-13-2005, 08:13 AM
Personally, I admire BMW for sticking with the straight 6 for as long as they have, and they could still be competitive with it in the M3 if they wished. They could go turbo, a la Toyota's 3.0L 2JZ-GTE (Supra) or Nissan's 2.6L RB26DETT (Skyline). Both are straight 6's and can handle obscene amounts of horsepower for the displacement. I'm sure everybody here knows how much power you can get with ridiculously few mods on those engines. 500whp is no big whoop for a turbo Supra or Skyline. BMW could engineer a turbo solution that would compare favorably with both of those...the long stroke plus forced induction would meet horsepower requirements and be *just* torquey enough to compete against larger V-8's, and it would be lighter. Apparently weight reduction isn't a priority anymore, and I have to admit that the Supra and Skyline were both heavy cars (luxury features, AWD gear on the Skyline, etc). I wish BMW would at least explore the option but apparently they want to leave forced induction to the aftermarket, which I understand (to a point).

All IMHO.
Do some research before you suggest that an I6 saves weight. It doesn't. It worsens weight distribution and weighs more than the V8s BMW has designed. There's absolutely no reason for BMW to keep using an I6 other than to satisfy the traditionalists.

Pinecone
09-13-2005, 07:46 PM
But the S54 is an iron block, versus aluminum blocks in the V8s. That makes a BIG difference.

SteveT
09-13-2005, 08:33 PM
But the S54 is an iron block, versus aluminum blocks in the V8s. That makes a BIG difference.

What's the designation for the new engines in the E90? That engine is a lighter I6 with it's magnesium/aluminum block.

Andre Yew
09-14-2005, 10:40 AM
The E90 engines are N52.

--Andre

///MLover
09-14-2005, 03:33 PM
Hello all,

I have a question i know that the current 2005 m3's dont have i drives and the new ones do so the main thing is will i be able to tubo the new ones cuz it has an i drive?

-Pwned

Pinecone
09-17-2005, 05:58 AM
Why would the radio and heater controls ahve anything to do with whether you can turbo it or not????

BTW the i-Drive is an option in the E90 3 sereis, not standard like the 5 and 7 series.

DaKine
09-17-2005, 06:23 PM
Do some research before you suggest that an I6 saves weight. It doesn't. It worsens weight distribution and weighs more than the V8s BMW has designed. There's absolutely no reason for BMW to keep using an I6 other than to satisfy the traditionalists.

Not only that, but I would much rather have a well engineered naturally aspirated V8 than a force-fed inline 6.