V8

[TracerHawk]

Anyone having second thoughts about considering the new M3 with the V8 when it comes out based on skyrocketing gas prices? I realize you don't buy an M3 based on gas mileage, but a V8 will really keep that MPG low. Was curious if anyone else was having second thoughts based on the combination of a V8 with increasing gas prices...

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

What kind of idiot worries about gas mileage when buying an M car? Besides, it'll probably be better than the S54, anyway.

[j2]

What kind of idiot worries about gas mileage when buying an M car?

The kind of idiot that spent too much money on a car, I guess... :dunno:

[Alex Baumann]

Yes, it will have worse fuel consumption than the S54, but 2 more cylinders and a lot more horsepower.

If I'd be shopping for a high performance car, fuel efficiency wouldn't be on the top of my shopping criterias.

[Mr. E]

It'll probably get better mileage than your typical SUV, and be 50 times more fun on the road!

[MysticBlue]

"Skyrocketing gas prices"?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8897401/site/newsweek/

And after you read that article, do some math. Assuming 5 mpg diff between car A and car B, it's a few hundred dollars a year.
Anyone who is thinking about spending 60k on a car when they could spend 30k to get them around comfortably and reliably is obviously not going to be swayed by a few hundred dollars per year in fuel cost. (Especially when it's for a good cause.) :D
Are you the type who thinks a hybrid would be a good thing to buy right now? Again, do the math. They cost thousands more than their identical non hybrid counterparts...It would take ten years to make up the difference in gas savings.
The short answer to your question is no.
And please don't ever use the phrase "skyrocketing gas prices" ever again. Makes me want to shoot my TV.

[Pinecone]

Well, at least one station locally is under $3 for regular already.

I get 27 MPG on the highway in the M3. In the Jeep Grand Cherokee, I am EXTEMELY HAPPY to get 20 MPG. The Roadster does about 23 on the highway (worse drag, no 6th).

[SteveT]

A 4L Valvetronic V8 may not get worse mileage than the S54. The pumping losses that are gone without the throttle plate improve the mileage. If you compare the X5 with the normal 6 and the Valvetronic 4.4L V8, the mileage spec is virtually the same. Sure the potential is there with Valvetronic, have some fun and pay for it, but at least you control that.

[mrbelk]

A 4L Valvetronic V8 may not get worse mileage than the S54. The pumping losses that are gone without the throttle plate improve the mileage. If you compare the X5 with the normal 6 and the Valvetronic 4.4L V8, the mileage spec is virtually the same. Sure the potential is there with Valvetronic, have some fun and pay for it, but at least you control that.

But the "M" motors are not valvetronic. Valvetronic can't cope with the 8300rpm redline of the new "M" lumps. I guess the M motors still use VANOS, but they aren't valvetronic.

-MrB

[SteveT]

But the "M" motors are not valvetronic. Valvetronic can't cope with the 8300rpm redline of the new "M" lumps. I guess the M motors still use VANOS, but they aren't valvetronic.

-MrB

Where have they said that valvetronic will not be on an M-Motor? There may be some mechanical reasons why, but I haven't heard them.

[mrbelk]

Where have they said that valvetronic will not be on an M-Motor? There may be some mechanical reasons why, but I haven't heard them.

Well, in the future, they could incorporate valvetronic, but at least for now, the M motors aren't. The M5 V10 is not valvetronic, and it's widely expected that the M3 V8 will just be the V10 -2 cylinders. It's my understanding (verified by a local DINAN mechanic) that the valvetronic mechanisms cannot withstand the high redlines of the new M V10 (and by extension, the new M V8).

-MrB

[SteveT]

Well, in the future, they could incorporate valvetronic, but at least for now, the M motors aren't. The M5 V10 is not valvetronic, and it's widely expected that the M3 V8 will just be the V10 -2 cylinders. It's my understanding (verified by a local DINAN mechanic) that the valvetronic mechanisms cannot withstand the high redlines of the new M V10 (and by extension, the new M V8).

-MrB

Check out this thread (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104961) . Looks like there's been an earlier discussion. The engine description in the Autocar article talks about a new V8 based on the M5 V10 with "electronically actuated throttle valves on each cylinder". That would make it the first M-Engine with Valvetronic. Interesting in any case.

[Bruce]

Check out this thread (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104961) . Looks like there's been an earlier discussion. The engine description in the Autocar article talks about a new V8 based on the M5 V10 with "electronically actuated throttle valves on each cylinder". That would make it the first M-Engine with Valvetronic. Interesting in any case.

"electronically actuated throttle valves on each cylinder" means individual throttle with throttle by wire...which the E46 M3 already has.

Valvetronic by definition doesn't have a butterfly throttle valve. At least that is how I understand it.

Therefore...E90 M3 won't have valvetronic. And I have heard the same thing that valvetronic can cope with the 8250 redline on the M5 V10.

[SteveT]

"electronically actuated throttle valves on each cylinder" means individual throttle with throttle by wire...which the E46 M3 already has.

Valvetronic by definition doesn't have a butterfly throttle valve. At least that is how I understand it.

Therefore...E90 M3 won't have valvetronic. And I have heard the same thing that valvetronic can cope with the 8250 redline on the M5 V10.

You're right valvetronic doesn't have throttles. The M5 engine has individual butterflies as well. I don't know why they would state it like that, it's not new. Thanks.

[mrbelk]

"electronically actuated throttle valves on each cylinder" means individual throttle with throttle by wire...which the E46 M3 already has.

Valvetronic by definition doesn't have a butterfly throttle valve. At least that is how I understand it.

Therefore...E90 M3 won't have valvetronic. And I have heard the same thing that valvetronic can cope with the 8250 redline on the M5 V10.

What he said.

-MrB

[BmW745On19's]

It doesn't matter how much the new M3 gets to a gallon. If you can afford a $60k car it doesn't really matter how much it costs to fill the thing up. In comparing cars for fuel efficency. -Reeves gave us a X3 3.0 to drive around, when my mom's 7 was in shop. The X3 has a 18 gallon tank and gets 15 miles to a gallon, 21 on the highway, which is about 55-70 mph. On the other hand my mom's 7, which is 500 pounds heavier, has a 23 gallon tank, will cruise at 80 and get about 20-25 mpg on cruise control. The 7 gets almost 450 miles to a tank while an X3 3.0 will only get about 300.- It all depends on how hard you drive a car, how big the car is, how big the tank is, what type of cylinder management is in the engine, how much you drive the car, and what octane of gas it takes to determine its yearly gas cost. A toyota prius, on the other hand, gets 60 miles to a gallon yet only holds 11 gallons of fuel. So do the math, 60x11=660 miles to a tank. And a prius goes 0-60 in 10 seconds. The current M3 will go about 404 miles on its 18 gallon tank. Thats not bad considering the M3 goes 0-60 in almost a quarter of the time a prius can make it. All in all, its all a matter of money, if you can afford an M3 for 60 some thousand dollars i'm sure you wont be worried too much about $200 to more a year to fill up your baby. Who really cares what type of mileage the new V8 M3 gets anyways, its a sports car not a tin can from asia, its meant to be driven hard and fast not slow and economic.

[E60orBust]

Well, at least one station locally is under $3 for regular already.

I get 27 MPG on the highway in the M3. In the Jeep Grand Cherokee, I am EXTEMELY HAPPY to get 20 MPG. The Roadster does about 23 on the highway (worse drag, no 6th).

Holy crap man! That's some nice gas mileage. I'm guessing you stick to WAWA stations here in MD?

My 330XI is just now hitting 19mpg, up from 16. It was my first new BMW (period) and hey, I was having fun with the 'ultimate driving machine' on back roads and city driving. Now it's more highway driving.

My 545i gets around 17-18, and my HEMI jeep...well let's not go there. :)

Back to the topic. If you are gas conscious, get a BMW motorcycle and call it a day. If you want to drive to have FUN while getting from point A to point B and you bought a $60K car, I don't think gas prices will worry you all that much.

[TracerHawk]

hrm yeah, you're right BmW745On19's, only 200 more bucks a year to fill it up isn't much at all. Thanks for drumming out the math for me. :)

I didnt mean to imply that anyone would make a decision on buying a V8 M3 on gas prices alone, just if it made anyone have a hesitation about it. Obviously there are many many other factors that are involved in the buying decision, and yes I know people don't buy M3's with fuel economy in mind. :rolleyes:

MysticBlue, while I agree that if you factor in inflation, sure our gas prices aren't all that crazy. However, the average gas price a year ago was $2.034/gallon. Today the national average is $3.055/gallon. Sorry if the word "skyrocketing" freaks you out, but it is what it is.

If you don't think a 50% increase in 12 months is a lot, then I'm not sure what to tell you. :p If I could make this same kind of return on my investments in 12 months, I'd be a happy camper! :D

[MysticBlue]

hrm yeah, you're right BmW745On19's, only 200 more bucks a year to fill it up isn't much at all. Thanks for drumming out the math for me. :)

I didnt mean to imply that anyone would make a decision on buying a V8 M3 on gas prices alone, just if it made anyone have a hesitation about it. Obviously there are many many other factors that are involved in the buying decision, and yes I know people don't buy M3's with fuel economy in mind. :rolleyes:

MysticBlue, while I agree that if you factor in inflation, sure our gas prices aren't all that crazy. However, the average gas price a year ago was $2.034/gallon. Today the national average is $3.055/gallon. Sorry if the word "skyrocketing" freaks you out, but it is what it is.

If you don't think a 50% increase in 12 months is a lot, then I'm not sure what to tell you. :p If I could make this same kind of return on my investments in 12 months, I'd be a happy camper! :DIt's just that "skyrocketing gas prices" is such an overused phrase in the media. It's in every story, every headline. Yes, 50% increase is a lot, but it is a volatile commodity...prices fluctuate. It's just the one people are noticing now, because of the media's focus. They don't notice the price of electricity has gone down, after "skyrocketing electric rates" of a couple of years ago. How 'bout long distance rates...dirt cheap. Cheaper than a generation ago, not even counting inflation. Same with a lot of electronics...bought a 25" TV lately? Or a clock radio. Small kitchen appliances. Clothes. A pair of blue jeans and a shirt is about the same as it was 20 years ago. Same with air fares. Food...You can still buy a bag of potatoes or rice for a couple of bucks. My point is, we are such an affluent society, we take for granted a lot of stuff that just a generation or two ago, most people really had to budget for, like food or gasoline. Gas has been so cheap for so long, people have made long term decisions based on that, like SUV's, living a long way from work, etc. Another ferinstance...When I was a kid I don't remember traffic jams in front of every school every morning and every afternoon. You either rode the bus or your bike or walked (in the snow, uphill both ways :D ). Now it seems every kid is dropped off and picked up by a parent driving an SUV. I live near 2 schools and I make a point to avoid them anywhere near 7:30 or 3:30, it's rediculous. My point is that the price of gas has not (yet) risen nearly enough to make much difference in the way people have become accustomed to living their lives or the buying decisions they make.

[Pinecone]

Holy crap man! That's some nice gas mileage. I'm guessing you stick to WAWA stations here in MD?

My 330XI is just now hitting 19mpg, up from 16. It was my first new BMW (period) and hey, I was having fun with the 'ultimate driving machine' on back roads and city driving. Now it's more highway driving.

My 545i gets around 17-18, and my HEMI jeep...well let's not go there. :)

Back to the topic. If you are gas conscious, get a BMW motorcycle and call it a day. If you want to drive to have FUN while getting from point A to point B and you bought a $60K car, I don't think gas prices will worry you all that much.

Nope, at the time it was under $3 for premium at the Exxon in Aberdeen. And Shell was just over $3. Of course things are back up a bit because of Rita.

And yes, the M3 does very nicely on the highway. Of course on teh track last week at O'fest it was doing under 9 MPG running $6.40 per gallon race gas. :) And I wasn't pushing hard down the straights that much. I have seen as low as 4.8 MPG. :)

[TracerHawk]

It's just that "skyrocketing gas prices" is such an overused phrase in the media. It's in every story, every headline. Yes, 50% increase is a lot, but it is a volatile commodity...prices fluctuate. It's just the one people are noticing now, because of the media's focus. They don't notice the price of electricity has gone down, after "skyrocketing electric rates" of a couple of years ago. How 'bout long distance rates...dirt cheap. Cheaper than a generation ago, not even counting inflation. Same with a lot of electronics...bought a 25" TV lately? Or a clock radio. Small kitchen appliances. Clothes. A pair of blue jeans and a shirt is about the same as it was 20 years ago. Same with air fares. Food...You can still buy a bag of potatoes or rice for a couple of bucks. My point is, we are such an affluent society, we take for granted a lot of stuff that just a generation or two ago, most people really had to budget for, like food or gasoline. Gas has been so cheap for so long, people have made long term decisions based on that, like SUV's, living a long way from work, etc. Another ferinstance...When I was a kid I don't remember traffic jams in front of every school every morning and every afternoon. You either rode the bus or your bike or walked (in the snow, uphill both ways :D ). Now it seems every kid is dropped off and picked up by a parent driving an SUV. I live near 2 schools and I make a point to avoid them anywhere near 7:30 or 3:30, it's rediculous. My point is that the price of gas has not (yet) risen nearly enough to make much difference in the way people have become accustomed to living their lives or the buying decisions they make.

hrm, maybe I subliminally used the term skyrocketing after too many news stories or something. :ouch: I wasn't really talking about the price of electronics or potatoe's or clothing or anything else, just gas. I suppose I could have said "skyrocketing in relation to what it's been RECENTLY", or maybe I should have said "skyrocketing in relation to what it was a year ago". I do agree though, we do live in such an affluent society that many things we consider "standard" these days were carefully considered "options" back then. You're right that if I look at it "big picture", its not a big deal. I was looking at it like "recent picture", like the last 9-12 months. Big picture, yes, it may be still fairly priced, especially with inflation-adjusted prices over the years. I get that. I wasn't looking at a drawn out historic big picture over the last 10 or 20 or 50 years, but rather recent decisions for recent situations and recent buying decisions/choices. Relative to when you make the buying decision of a new car.

A year ago many people would have bought SUV's without a care in the world, and while they may have minorly griped about MPG and such, it was never much of a consideration when buying a vehicle. These days, I'm sure many many people give a strong second thought when considering gas mileage if they are buying a SUV or any other gas guzzlers or vehicles with poor gas mileage. And yes, I get we're talking about BMW's cars mostly, not SUV's, but the same logic still applies as you're buying a vehicle that takes gas. I've never owned a V8, so I wasn't sure what to expect out of gas mileage, but I was assuming in the new M3 it would be something like 15/19. I was happy to hear though the likely difference is less than most people realize. A difference of 200 bucks more a year or so is really nominal overall, which was mentioned earlier in this thread.

I ran the numbers for me for 10k miles a year and got:
- Currently spend 1350.00 a year in gas for current car
- Spent 800.00 a year for gas a year ago for current car

reducing the MPG by 5 MPG as a "bad to worst case scenario", it would have been:
- Currently spend 1700.00 a year in gas for V8 with 5 MPG worse
- Would have spent 1025.00 a year in gas for V8 with 5 MPG worse a year ago.

So, would have cost me 200 bucks more a year ago to get a 5MPG drop in fuel efficiency, and a 350 bucks more a year now. Only a 150 dollar difference, so the numbers seems to show that a drop in fuel efficiency are twice as important as the actual price of the gas. And, even then, 350 bucks a year is no real reason to adjust a buying decision on a 60k car. Going from a year ago cheap gas prices in current car, to today's gas prices in a M3 V8 though, my total cost in gas would go from 800.00 a year up to 1700.00 a year. The drop in MPG combined with the increase in fuel prices over the last year, make for a little more than doubling my costs in gas from a year ago. I guess it depends how you want to spin it. I think I'll look at it just in current day dollars and view it as the 150.00 difference rather than the 900.00 difference. :D

While I personally havent adjusted any of my driving habits based on gasoline prices, I do know people that have in fact cut back on certain trips or planned more efficient days driving around town, as well as people that have moved 'MPG' up much higher in their list of factors to weigh in when buying a new car. I guess I figure when prices of a commodity rise more than 50% in 9 months, and people start to adjust their driving habits (temporarily or not), that's when it becomes a more of a factor to weigh in with the all the others that people contemplate when making a buying decision. Running the numbers above, I see when you look at it closer, it doesn't matter all that much overall really. I don't expect many people on a BMW board to really notice or change much at all, being that BMW is a more expensive brand AND a performance brand, so people have the money to buy a more expensive car and know as well that they are buying for performance rather than fuel economy. I'm in that boat too as I'm looking at buying my 3rd BMW.

Thanks for making me run the numbers and see it's not nearly as big of a deal as it seems when you look deeper into the details. :thumbup:

On a side note MysticBlue, after your commentary on what we have these days vs. the way it used to be and what we take for granted, I can't IMAGINE what you think of all the 18-23 year olds on this forum that post how they are "buying" their first M3 and their Mom/Dad/Uncle/Grandfather is buying it for them or paying the downpayment etc. I know at 20 I was in college and working part-time and worried about how to keep my current beater running and how much should I spend on dinner that night to make sure I had enough money to last the week, NOT where I could get driving lessons after my Dad bought me a 60k M3. LOL! :eeps: