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drsides
10-05-2005, 01:27 PM
All-
someone posted the following comment per the recent question on stuporcharging:
"You can easily get a 25% increase in power for about 2 grand going NA. "

So that brings up another line of questioning that I'm sure has been discussed before (but i havent found anything in the archives): Is it possible to go beyond 20 hp without forced induction?

Im very new to e36 m3's, but from what i've read, cam's, headers, etc dont buy you much with the e36 m3 engine. My impression is that if you want to break beyone the 250-260 mark, then you're looking at a superch, turboch, or even (heaven forbid) NOS.

If it is, what's a basic formula? cam? headers? heads?

Please tell me i'm wrong, cause i'll sure sign up for 50hp for $2K!

okay, that is all. thanks for the bandwidth.

dan

Bruce
10-05-2005, 03:34 PM
No way you will get 25% increase (that's 60 hp) for 2k on a BMW. You cand get that with the cams kits that are out there but you are looking at $4-5k including install.

Anything more than 300 crank hp you are looking at forced induction.

Pinecone
10-05-2005, 05:36 PM
It depends somewhat on which engine. The 95s with the S50 engien can get some 40HP with the intake setup with the Euro HFM and high flow injectors. Cams give more, but not that much.

For the S52 engines in 96 and later cars, you need cams to get any reasonable HP gains. BimmerWorld is working iwht Sunbelt cams right now, and are seeing over 300 HP (at the crank) without fully optimizing the software, and without headers which are really needed with cams.

Figure the full kit will run some $3000 plus install and headers another $600 - $1000 plus install.

If you want to go much more, you will need forced induction or serious work.

drsides
10-06-2005, 12:48 PM
FWIW, my m3 will be a 98, so it will be an S52.

Pinecone wrote:
"For the S52 engines in 96 and later cars, you need cams to get any reasonable HP gains. BimmerWorld is working iwht Sunbelt cams right now, and are seeing over 300 HP (at the crank) without fully optimizing the software, and without headers which are really needed with cams.
Figure the full kit will run some $3000 plus install and headers another $600 - $1000 plus install."

Cool. This is the kind of info that i was looking for...

I found the info on this setup at
http://www.bimmerworld.com/html/e36-m3-32l-cam-kit.htm

From the look of the dyno, it looks like the hp gain is pretty high in the rpm range.

Any prognostications on what the header kit brings?

thanks for the info!

Pinecone
10-06-2005, 04:51 PM
No, but a club racer says that someone with the Shrick cam setup (both cars have this) but with teh BW headers pulls him on teh straight. So it is a reasonable amount.

thilton59
10-11-2005, 11:58 PM
Cams, flywheel, intake(euro hfc, manifold, cool air), header, no cats, ECU reflash, some head work..., balancing, higher compresion pistons, reduction pulleys, fan delete/electric fan, "plasma direct" ignition, and bigger injectors. This should, with some lighter wheels, get you close to 300hp and torque at the wheels, a little more probably. But for that price just import a euro Evo motor that has 321hp and 286 TQ. That's about 10K. So if it's gobs of power for cheap... get a mustang or camero. BMW's have got to work for theirs.
Also check out DA motorsports.

drsides
10-12-2005, 02:41 PM
CSo if it's gobs of power for cheap... get a mustang or camero. BMW's have got to work for theirs.

HA! funny you say that. I actually have a 98 Z28 right now. ~330hp/340lb/ft. The e36 m3 will be a step down of about 80-90 hp. That explains the interest in cheap power.

I would love to drop a chevy LS1 small block in an e36.

thilton59
10-12-2005, 10:14 PM
I would love to drop a chevy LS1 small block in an e36.[/QUOTE]


I would have to turn my head and close my eyes and pretend it wasn't there... If that's what you want I know of a few M5 to M3 engine conversions, that's perfectly alright, but an LS1... I just threwup a little.

Pinecone
10-13-2005, 06:21 PM
But life is not just a straight line. The M3 will EAT you up in teh twisties.

Problem with Euro motor is if you live in many states, they do an OBD II comptuer scan for emissions, which the Euro S30b32 is an OBD I electronics, and is illegal. So check local laws first, then consider if you want to be in violation of Federal environmental laws, which many have CRIMINAL penalties.

Just to make sure you understand your choices.

Oh, and the Euro motor makes more HP by virtue of higher RPM and high torque peak. 0 - 100 they are about equal as geared.

thilton59
10-15-2005, 11:52 AM
You're just always out to try and proove me wrong Terry. And being SMOG legal isn't the first thing on everyone's list... The euro motor revs higher and makes more power yes, but it also has double VANOS and ITB's, two things almost impossible to convert the US spec motor to have, it's more capable. You east coasters...

Pinecone
10-15-2005, 05:38 PM
I was NOT trying to prove you wrong, just pointing out so potential pitfalls to dropping in the Euro motor. If these do not apply to you, then GO FOR IT. But if someone takes your advice, buys a Euro motor and then finds out it is not legal in their state, the hard way, that is NOT helping matters.

In THIS state, you will be able to run your Euro motor for a maximum of 2 years, Then the emissions Nazis will nail you and remove your registration. People need to know that.

That's why I said to check your local laws FIRST before going to a Euro motor. Notice I did NOT say to not do it, just make sure first.

Yes, the Euro motor is a great motor, I would love to drop one in our M Roadster except for the above problem. I never siad anything else.

BUT, when they did the US motor, back when they we deciding to bring the E36 M3 into the US,, even the testers of the day found they two cars/motors were pretty even up to 100 MPH, then the higher HP of the Euro motor does make a difference. The Euro motor doesn't make that much more torque, but it does have a much higher redline.

Oh, and for you left coasters, is the Euro motor swap CARB compliant? :)

Oh, and the straight line comment was NOT directed at you, but to the owner of the 98 Camaro. I figured you could figure that one out. But an LS1 into a E36 M3, that is a nice idea, even if it irritates the purists. :)

Oh, and you can do well over 300 at the crank from a S52 motor. BimmerWorld is seeing over 300 with just a cam kit (cams, M50 intake, CAI, 24 lb injectors, and software). 305 last time I talked to them, and Sunbelt just gave them 5 more ft-lbs of torque. Add headers, good free flow exhaust, underdrive pulleys, and plasma coils, you are pushing into Euro motor territory, but less money. Maybe go nuts and do a BMP 3 throttle body system. :)

Euro motor is around $8,000:

Product Description Price
E36 M3 Euro 3.2L Engine Package 321 Hp $8,400.00

Engine


Install custom-grind cams
Optional -- $1,850.00 additional charge

The ultimate E36 engine from the Evo M3. This engine makes 321Hp and 258 ft-lb of torque from the factory with stock reliability. These engines are sold complete with Euro headers, 6 throttle body intake, and all electronics. Most of our engines have 20,000 to 50,000 miles, but we have had some with as few as 4,000. Fits all E30 and E36 cars, prices start at $8,000. TECH NOTE - These cars came with an updated drive-away theft protection system, consisting of a specially coded key and various electronics to prevent operation without this key. This system is easily swapped into 95 production date and newer E36 cars if the correct parts are provided, but can be difficult to transplant into older models. We can provide additional parts to circumvent this system and make installation plug and play. Please email or call to purchase one of these engines. There are several compatibility issues involved. We want to work with you to make sure you have the correct parts for your car, so we do not have this package available for online ordering. All of our Euro engines come from left-hand drive cars so you don't have to spend $1,000+ on a RHD engine harness and related parts.

thilton59
10-17-2005, 07:18 AM
Wow! You can cut and paste! Bimmerworld.com, Isn't that plagerism? And it doesn't matter all too much about CARB or smog, anyone who's in the industry knows a shop that does smog that will certify your car without even looking at it, for a nominal fee. And yes I'm a purist, the inline 6 is what BMW is good at they've been making them for 89 years, off and on as it might have been.

Pinecone
10-17-2005, 08:14 AM
Yeah it is. :)

I don't live in CA, so CARB isn't an issue. And anyway, think they will be able to see the CARB sticker on cams? :)

In MD, on OBD II cars, they hook up to the computer and loook for emissions fault codes. No fault codes, you pass. On ealier cars they doa tail pipe test, so if you pass, you pass (which is really the best way to do it , IMO, either your emissions are clean or they are not).

And while BMW makes a fine car, it is a compromise. For some of us, we wish to shift the compromises more towards the performance side, and accept the slight downsides.