Bridgestone S-03 question for Gary

[SLO Town]

Hi GRY:

I am a long time Tirerack customer and have a question for you. I recently purchased a set of Bridgestone S-03s for my bought new, 2003 330Ci, 24,000 miles. I have the M-sport style 72 staggered wheel set up, and am using the factory size of 225/40 and 255/35.

I live in a warm California climate and if I don't drive the car for a week or so, the tires seems to flat spot more than any tire I can remember. Seriously, on warm roads the first few miles the car literally shakes and vibrates, especially in the rear. We're talking 30-35mph. And once I get on the freeway it seems to take them another several miles to smooth out.

Another related comment/question. I had the tires mounted by a place who I've done lots of business. I've always had good luck with them. But there are times I swear there's this weird out of balance feeling on PERFECTLY smooth portions of the freeway (asphalt). I've taken them back to be rebalanced, and they were dead nuts on (they even recalibrated the machine first).

So, my questions are 1) are the S-03s known to flat spot when parked, and 2) are the S-03s extremely sensitive to balance, or are they know to have vibration issues (the feeling is definitely not like an out of balance situation - if I didn't know better I'd think something was wrong with the driveshaft or a half shaft - but that's not he case).

Thanks in advance,

Scott Sitler

[Plaz]

Hi GRY:

I am a long time Tirerack customer and have a question for you. I recently purchased a set of Bridgestone S-03s for my bought new, 2003 330Ci, 24,000 miles. I have the M-sport style 72 staggered wheel set up, and am using the factory size of 225/40 and 255/35.

I live in a warm California climate and if I don't drive the car for a week or so, the tires seems to flat spot more than any tire I can remember. Seriously, on warm roads the first few miles the car literally shakes and vibrates, especially in the rear. We're talking 30-35mph. And once I get on the freeway it seems to take them another several miles to smooth out.

Another related comment/question. I had the tires mounted by a place who I've done lots of business. I've always had good luck with them. But there are times I swear there's this weird out of balance feeling on PERFECTLY smooth portions of the freeway (asphalt). I've taken them back to be rebalanced, and they were dead nuts on (they even recalibrated the machine first).

So, my questions are 1) are the S-03s known to flat spot when parked, and 2) are the S-03s extremely sensitive to balance, or are they know to have vibration issues (the feeling is definitely not like an out of balance situation - if I didn't know better I'd think something was wrong with the driveshaft or a half shaft - but that's not he case).

Thanks in advance,

Scott Sitler

I've used S-03s for years on my 330i (though I will probably go with PS2s next time), and have never had any flat-spotting issues.

What pressure do you run in your tires? I generally vary between 38psi and 42psi all around. If you're running in the high twenties or low thirties, maybe that's the difference.

The only widely discussed negative attributes of these tires that I know of are their tendency to tramline, and their noise. Neither one of those things bothers me too much.

:dunno:

[The HACK]

"Flat spot" on max perf. summer tires are common if not driven regularly due to the ultra soft compound. Typically the "flat spot" will go away once the tire has warmed up.

Issues with balancing will surface as "vibrations" as you drive, you will know immediately it's balancing because your steering wheel will vibrate lightly at certain speed range. What you describe is "tramlining", which is very common with symmetrical groove design and again, very common "feature" with max performance summer tires.

If the flat spots really bother you, here's what you do: Put the car up on jack stands or drive the car more often. Personally, I would take option 2.

[SLO Town]

Thanks for your replies.

Yeah, maybe I will put the car up on jackstands!!!

I am certain the vibration I'm feeling is not a balance problem. The steering wheel does not shake or shimmey. The sensation I'm getting is a muted, rubberized sensation in the seat of my pants. It's like nothing I've ever felt before on any car.

You mention tramlining. My car came with RE-040s and those tires tramilined more than you can imagine. The S-03s - absolutely no tramilining. Given all the comments from others about how bad S-03s tramline, I am not only surprised, I'm pleased.

In my opinion, the S-03s offer only slightly better grip than the RE-040s. I thought the RE-040 was a very sticky tire and I could never understand why it gets so trashed in the Tirerack owners survey.

FWIW, I am normally a Michelin tire guy. But frankly, I have become extremely anti-French and will never purchase another Michelin in my lifetime. Though it was a bummer for the fans that spent their hard-earned money on US GP tickets, I laughed out loud with the problems Michelin had at Indy. I just wish a Minardi won instead of Michael.

[SLO Town]

...I run my tires hard like you.

[Gary@Tirerack]

Although we get many reports of tramlining, flatspotting and balancing issues have never been a problem with the S03.

[The HACK]

In my opinion, the S-03s offer only slightly better grip than the RE-040s. I thought the RE-040 was a very sticky tire and I could never understand why it gets so trashed in the Tirerack owners survey.
How often do you take your car to the track?

The difference between good tires and excellent tires are not appearant at speed and driving at or near 3/10th, akin to most aggressive street driving. The difference shows up when you're near 7/10th and is very dramatic.

Max summer tires aren't really THAT much grippier when you're not pushing it. The big difference is that their limit is so much higher than the all season or high performance tires. It's like driving R-comps on the street, if you don't push them it's like "what's the big deal about these tires?" But the second you go on a track, you'd be like "why didn't I run with these much earlier?!"

[Pinecone]

I disagree somewhat. Higher performance tires do FEEL different on the street. Quicker turn in, quicker set.

First time I put really good tires ona car (which had preety good tires to start) I amost turning nit a curb at teh first intersection. The turn in was a good 3 - 4 feet quicker. :)

[SLO Town]

Gentlemen:

Thanks for all your replies. I have a some sort of vibration problem and once I find out what it is I'll send out an update. I just hope I don't end up buying a new set of tires to eliminate the problem - as a friend of mine had to do with an E30 M3. He went back to the tire dealer, had things rebalanced, checked roundness, etc. He had everything checked but could not convince the tire dealer that the vibration occurred with the new tires. Anyway, he ended up buying another set and the vibration was gone. The tire dealer was as mystified as he was, but at least they gave him his money back on the second set of tires.

As far as tracking the car, I don't. However, I live in a sparesely populated area in California with many different, lightly traveled roads to choose from. High speed roads are dangerous, though I have a pair of great medium speed roads (30 to 90 MPH) that I drive regularly. In fact, I drove one of these roads just this past Saturday. I make an out and back trip on it - the "sporting" portion of the drive being a total of 75 miles. The S-03s were challenged big time, at many points my staggered setup understeering in mid-corner, then changing to oversteer on corner exit. I checked the tires when I got home and they were grained and scuffed badly. The fronts, 225/40-18s inflated to 38 PSI overnight cold, had actually rolled over up past the tread grooves on the outside shoulder. This is kind of creepy because this means the edge of the rim is within about 1" of the road surface! This is with the car set to have -1% of camber on the front. I'll never be truly comfortable with that...

With my 330Ci, I've actually driven the RE-040s to the point they started to get greasy to the point (not hard to do) I've had to slow and let them cool down. I haven't felt that with the S-03s, though I've only had them for about 1,500 miles.

Though I try and exercise discretion and choose my time and place very, very carefully - extremely carefully - I should try my hand a the track. How can I do that? Your guidance would be appreciated.

PS Vibration aside, I am somewhat disappointed with the dry grip of the S-03s so far.

[Artslinger]

Take your car back to the installer and have them recheck the tires for out of round and balance, also have them check for any bent rims. At 1,500 miles the tires should just be coming into normal performance, give them another 500-700 miles.

New tires have a higher tread block, maybe you're not used to the feel of the new tires?

[The HACK]

As far as tracking the car, I don't. However, I live in a sparesely populated area in California with many different, lightly traveled roads to choose from. High speed roads are dangerous, though I have a pair of great medium speed roads (30 to 90 MPH) that I drive regularly. In fact, I drove one of these roads just this past Saturday. I make an out and back trip on it - the "sporting" portion of the drive being a total of 75 miles. The S-03s were challenged big time, at many points my staggered setup understeering in mid-corner, then changing to oversteer on corner exit. I checked the tires when I got home and they were grained and scuffed badly. The fronts, 225/40-18s inflated to 38 PSI overnight cold, had actually rolled over up past the tread grooves on the outside shoulder. This is kind of creepy because this means the edge of the rim is within about 1" of the road surface! This is with the car set to have -1% of camber on the front. I'll never be truly comfortable with that...

PS Vibration aside, I am somewhat disappointed with the dry grip of the S-03s so far.
Don't take offense to what I am saying here. But reading your description of what you were doing with those corners, I would suggest you take the car to a track and a high performance driving school once in a while and LEARN how to properly attack those corners. The fact that you "understeered" into the corner and "oversteered" out of the corner is a clear sign that you don't really know how to go through a corner fast. Too abrupt with the steering, too abrupt with the throttle, causing the tires to scuff unecessarily. You can go through those corners much faster with more enjoyment if you only learned how to be smooth with your inputs.

Seriously. Go get yourself trained if you wish to continue to push the car. Otherwise, we'll be reading about your car "losing control" and wrapping yourself around a tree.

On a final note: You are not out-driving the tires. There's still plenty of speed to be had with those tires. Learn how to extract it and you will be VERY surprised at what those S-03s can do.

[SLO Town]

Hack:

No offense taken. Postings like these leave out endless details, both actual words and the inflection in one's voice.

One thing with public roads that makes smooth driving somewhat more difficult is that I always, always stay in my lane on right hand corners (corner entrance and exit). On left handers, and only if visibility is totally unobstructed, I may straddle the center line at mid-corner. To top it off, my favorite road has botts dots, which I make an effort to avoid driving over, though I agree they serve a good purpose.

The net is that the road ends up being narrow, much more narrow than Buttonwillow, Laguna, etc. The effect is that the corners must be attacked much differently than those on a track.

If I had read my own email as a "stranger" like you, I'd question my understeer at mid-corner, oversteer at corner exit comments. This is not when using second gear, where the 330Ci has enough power to break the rear end loose. I'm talking third gear at 60 to 70 miles per hour. A 330Ci doesn't have enough power to break the back end loose under power in third gear. In a third gear corner my car actually takes an understeering set that persists in certain mid-speed corners for about 2 or 3 seconds, and even when holding a steady steering wheel and throttle, my car's attitude will indeed change into a neutral to slightly oversteering attitude. It's all very predictable, and is something that I can actually play with or prevent with different throttle positions and/or applications (e.g. closing and reopening the throttle very quickly).

At any rate, I don't take offense at your comments and would like to get some track time somewhere, somehow. I'm 52 with a long history of high performance cars of many types, every single one of them heavily modified by me personally. In college I even crewed for a multi-year SCCA Western Region champion, my role being that of suspension guru. This already sucessful car and driver acheived even great success during the time I worked on the car, our highlight being a front row qualifying position at the National Championships at Road Atlanta, and a third place finish at that race. We finished behind the two Group 44 cars - cars with full British Leyland backing. We were really proud to have splt them in qualifying - given the fact that we were true privateers with jobs or school that mandated we turn wrenches at night in this guy's garage!

Anyway, ramble, ramble, even at 52 I think I would be quicker than 90% of the folks out there. Don't misinterpret my comments at throwing stones at you. I'm definitely not doing that. I'm just talking with ya!

Seriously, what's the easiest way to get track time? It seems like gear head demand for it far outstrips track time availability. What do you think is the best way to go about it? Though I used to autocross many years ago, it doesn't float my boat because it's all first and second gear, which in my opinion is hard on the car. I'd rather fry brakes than be on and off the throttle in first gear.

Thanks in advance, Hack.

[The HACK]

Same vehicle dynamics apply to track driving and street driving. The physics governing the vehicle doesn't all of a sudden change going from one surface or one corner to another.

Try it. Go take a high performance driving event on the track. You will understand afterwards how badly you are driving now.

[Pinecone]

I have had problems with tires and wheels inteh past. In one case taking each tire and rotating it 180 degrees ont eh rim and re balancing solved the problem. I guess teh rim was just off enough and the wheel just off enough to get togehter and cause a problem.

And I agree, lane width does NOT change the equation, it just limits the other line options just think of it as a one line track. It can be how you are braking, how you are letting off the brake, how you are moving the steering wheel, too fast or too slow or not smoothly, how smoothly you are adding power, etc. Even without enough power to break the rear end loose, you can induce corner exit oversteer in the car.

But I do admire your restraint in not using the entire road on public streets like some idiots do.

[The HACK]

But I do admire your restraint in not using the entire road on public streets like some idiots do.
Watch who you're calling an idiot. Stuka may not appreciate that.

You can practice all the basics of high performance driving within your own lane. Just imagine the white and yellow lines as the edge of the burms.

If you (SLO TOWN) are using up the tires that much, you may be early apexing the corners. You may have experience crewing for a race team, but unless you are out there driving, it is a completely different experience and skill set.

For example, ScottN2Retro has ran a successful campaign with his E36 M3 over the last few years, and from the few times I've seen him drive on the track...He's going to need a lot of work and instruction to catch up.

Check in with your local BMWCCA chapters, or Russel/Derek Daly school for track schools. If I'm reading SLO Town right, you're located in San Luis Obisbo? You should be within 3 hours of Laguna Seca, 1.5 hour of Buttonwillow, 5 hours of Las Vegas...You're situated in the ideal location for track access. Every local track is within 5 hours of drive.

We (a few of us from So. Cal and our Nor Cal bretherens) will be at Sears Point come November 11-12th. Come by, we'll talk.

[jvr826]

FWIW I ran S-03's on my former E39 530i sport, 18" upgrade, and had flat-spotting issues with every set. I think in the 3 years I had that car I purchased 4 sets of tires. In fact, the first set I thought were not balanced properly on brand new wheels, so I had them done again. I learned of the flat-spotting here and paid closer attention to how long the vibration lasted. After a few miles it would go away. I ran 38psi minimum, sometimes higher.

I have Michelin PS1's on my new car and don't have flat-spotting, but they are certainly no S-03 in the handling dept!

[Chris90]

How often do you take your car to the track?

The difference between good tires and excellent tires are not appearant at speed and driving at or near 3/10th, akin to most aggressive street driving. The difference shows up when you're near 7/10th and is very dramatic.

Max summer tires aren't really THAT much grippier when you're not pushing it. The big difference is that their limit is so much higher than the all season or high performance tires. It's like driving R-comps on the street, if you don't push them it's like "what's the big deal about these tires?" But the second you go on a track, you'd be like "why didn't I run with these much earlier?!"

Yeah, when i drove my car with S-O3s on the track, I was like wow, serious grip. But now that i don't do track days, I wouldn't buy them, or at least wouldn't pay much extra for them.

Mine tramline really bad, and also vibrate sometimes when cold, but it could just be my car.

[The HACK]

...I ran 38psi minimum, sometimes higher.
Hm...Both of you run with higher than recommended pressure. May be why you are experiencing the problems, with higher pressure the contact patch (stationary) gets smaller and more of the car's weight gets laid down on a smaller area.

Try lowering your tire pressure, especially on lower profile tires, to 33-35psi if it's going to be stationary for a long time (more than a week).

[SergioK]

Hm...Both of you run with higher than recommended pressure. Inflate to max PSI (50psi ought to do it!) when cold for that bubbly feeling all over. :D
(Disclaimer: not recommended for driving of any sorts on any roads of any kind)

[Pinecone]

:stupid:

Higher pressures reduce flat spotting. The flat spots come from the carcass being deofmred while sitting. Higher pressure mean less carcass deformation, and less flatspotting.

As for who I call an idiot, anyone who uses oncoming lanes as part of their line on the street is one such person. If they want to kill themselves, fine, but doing that may take out other people. If the shoe fits .....

[SLO Town]

JVR and Dawg:

So your S-03s flat spotted too when parked. Thank you. I knew it wasn't my imagination.

SLO Town

[The HACK]

.

[SLO Town]

Man I was only jokin'. Chill out. :D

My car has been sitting on the S-03s for weeks without flat-spotting. And I run ~32psi cold.

Yeah right. Your struts, shocks, and bushings are probably completely worn out. You're just not feeling it. When cold, your wheels and tires are probably bouncing up and down like tennis balls inside your wheel wells.

PS The struts go on the FRONT end, shocks on the REAR.

[The HACK]

.

[Stuka]

Watch who you're calling an idiot. Stuka may not appreciate that.

:confused: :confused:

You can get the car nicely sideways while staying in one lane. Remember that one time in the rain when Sergio and I took a ride in Butthead's car and he got Sergio saying mofo dot com the whole time they were in the car. :bigpimp:

[SLO Town]

Hack, yer a character! It's been fun!

[Pinecone]

:confused: :confused:

You can get the car nicely sideways while staying in one lane. Remember that one time in the rain when Sergio and I took a ride in Butthead's car and he got Sergio saying mofo dot com the whole time they were in the car. :bigpimp:

And I have no problem with your going sideways, as long as you keep it in your lane. :)

And I have no problem using more than one lane, as long as all the lanes you are using are for travel in a single direction. It is going into the oncoming lane that I am not a fan of doing.

[franka]

SO3s are tramline crazy. I had 3 sets of 275/35-18 on my 540 Sport. PS2s do not tramline so I'm sticking (no pun intended) with them.