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damills
11-08-2005, 04:20 PM
Has anyone performed a stereo upgrade who also have Bluetooth. My plan is to keep the OEM headunit and tap into the wiring at the amp similar to post by David Bagby's FAQ on e46fanatics:

http://www.e46fanatics.com/faq/stereosaga.html

Im replacing the amp, speakers and sub, it differs from Bagby's install, Im adding a EQ and JLAudio's Cleansweep:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_cleansweep_pages.php?page_id=79

I did this same thing in my 2000 323cia, I didnt use a line converter, sounded very clean, no engine whine, nothing, Im just hoping for a purer signal using the cleansweep.

If anyone has done this type of install, did Bluetooth still work?

el_duderino
11-08-2005, 07:25 PM
Based on my experinece with BMWs, the Clean Sweep is absolutely not needed.

All you need is a reliable method of converting balanced differential signals to single ended signals and getting rid of any DC component of the signal. (If this doesn't make any sense, send me a PM and we can talk on the phone).

We do this upgrade all the time - doing one Thursday and Friday in an M3 - and you DON'T need a Clean Sweep. There's no EQ in the head unit preamp signal.

It doesn't really do anything to "clean up" a flat and powerful signal like your HU has.

el_duderino
11-08-2005, 10:36 PM
Oh, and the 2005 X5 I converted from DSP to non-DSP, we did not retain the bluetooth functionality until we added a dedicated speaker. The muting and onscreen functions worked fine but the BT audio that goes into the amp we re-routed to the tuner module like it is in non DSP car -0 but no go.

If you don't have DSP, then it should be fine...

damills
11-09-2005, 03:49 AM
Based on my experinece with BMWs, the Clean Sweep is absolutely not needed.

All you need is a reliable method of converting balanced differential signals to single ended signals and getting rid of any DC component of the signal. (If this doesn't make any sense, send me a PM and we can talk on the phone).

We do this upgrade all the time - doing one Thursday and Friday in an M3 - and you DON'T need a Clean Sweep. There's no EQ in the head unit preamp signal.

It doesn't really do anything to "clean up" a flat and powerful signal like your HU has.
Makes sense, Im using an amp which takes balanced differential inputs. What do you think about using a 10 band EQ to adjust the curve, I hate a flat response, I like more than just bass and treble adjustments.

Im going to put in the 04 325cia (HK system), if I use the EQ and cleansweep (may or may not), will BT still work for the config Ive described? HK is not DSP is it? Any of this make sense, Im capturing the head unit signals at the connector that connects to the HK amp, taking the HK amp out of the loop.

In an 04 325 what do you recommend for speaker replacements and a sub, looking for cleaniest sound possible, best price. Everyone talks about MB-Quartz but expensive, what else is out there. The front door woofers are the only place I have to worry about sizing. Im going to use wire-taps so I dont have to cut any wires to get the signals, hardwire the speakers in the rear and use wire-taps in the front door to capture output, installing crossover in the door along with woofer and tweeter, make sense??

el_duderino
11-09-2005, 09:27 AM
Makes sense, Im using an amp which takes balanced differential inputs. What do you think about using a 10 band EQ to adjust the curve, I hate a flat response, I like more than just bass and treble adjustments.

Well, if the EQ is for your personal and regular use rather than for a set-and-forget response correction, you have to decide where to install it. Audio Control makes some that are digital and have a remote control head, but I hate the looks of the head and would enver install one. Personally, I feel that if you have a flat response out of your HU, an EQ is literally the LAST thing to add.

Not never, just LAST.

An EQ is a device to force a speaker to play a note in a different fashion than it wants to play it. If you take the money you would spend on an EQ, and spend it on speakers that play the notes the way you want them to sound in the first place (and on enough power, and on installing the spekaers in the correct way) then you don't NEED an EQ.

Also, when you add 3dB on an EQ adjustment, you ask the amp to DOUBLE its power at that note. +3dB = 2x watts. Doesn't take long to run out of power if you have a smaller amp.

Then, if you want to add one to muck everything up : ), then go ahead - but you can't EQ the wrong speakers to sound like the right speakers (more on this later).


M
Im going to put in the 04 325cia (HK system), if I use the EQ and cleansweep (may or may not), will BT still work for the config Ive described? HK is not DSP is it? Any of this make sense, Im capturing the head unit signals at the connector that connects to the HK amp, taking the HK amp out of the loop.

I don't beleive you could get DSP in your 3 series. However, the HK system is considered the "premium" amplifier system. There are two places that the BT audio can go from the BT module - into the amp, or into the tuner module. The bmwtechinfo wiring diagrams show the pins that it would be going into in either place. I don't know where yours is going, but I suspect that it might be going into the amp. I don't have a current bmwtechinfo subscription, but if you have access to a wiring diagram of your car's amplifier wiring, email it to me and I will let you know (bimmerfest at avincar.com )

If it is going into the amp at present, you *could* re-route it into the tuner module - but on the 2005 X5 we did, I couldn't get the tuner module to pass the audio through. (Muting worked just fine with no work on our part). We took it to a shop and tried recoding with no result.

So eventually we took the speaker-level output of the BT kit and connected it to a new speaker under the dash, and everything worked fine.



In an 04 325 what do you recommend for speaker replacements and a sub, looking for cleaniest sound possible, best price. Everyone talks about MB-Quartz but expensive, what else is out there. The front door woofers are the only place I have to worry about sizing. Im going to use wire-taps so I dont have to cut any wires to get the signals, hardwire the speakers in the rear and use wire-taps in the front door to capture output, installing crossover in the door along with woofer and tweeter, make sense??

OK, couple of things:

1) I hates MB Quart. They are not expensive in my opinion in a literal sense, but are overpriced for their performance. Distant mids, eventually fatiguing highs.

2) Are you married to the idea of having rear deck speakers? They compromise stereo imaging and negatively affect sound quality, but many people won't let them go becuase they grew up with dad's car having speakers behind their heads. IF you are willing to not have rear speakers, you can get better sound by taking some of the savings and spending it on the front speakers, which are your biggest sound quality determinant.

3) If you decide what budget you truly are comfortable in spending, I and others can make more appropriate spending suggestions. I say this becayse I dn't think MB Quart speakers are that expensive (I think they are overpriced for their performance, but I doon't think they are that expensive). So I want to have an idea of what you are looking for.

Does that car have a ski pass? Does it have folding rear seats?

damills
11-09-2005, 01:25 PM
Well, if the EQ is for your personal and regular use rather than for a set-and-forget response correction, you have to decide where to install it. Audio Control makes some that are digital and have a remote control head, but I hate the looks of the head and would enver install one. Personally, I feel that if you have a flat response out of your HU, an EQ is literally the LAST thing to add.

Not never, just LAST.

An EQ is a device to force a speaker to play a note in a different fashion than it wants to play it. If you take the money you would spend on an EQ, and spend it on speakers that play the notes the way you want them to sound in the first place (and on enough power, and on installing the spekaers in the correct way) then you don't NEED an EQ.

Also, when you add 3dB on an EQ adjustment, you ask the amp to DOUBLE its power at that note. +3dB = 2x watts. Doesn't take long to run out of power if you have a smaller amp.

Then, if you want to add one to muck everything up : ), then go ahead - but you can't EQ the wrong speakers to sound like the right speakers (more on this later).




I don't beleive you could get DSP in your 3 series. However, the HK system is considered the "premium" amplifier system. There are two places that the BT audio can go from the BT module - into the amp, or into the tuner module. The bmwtechinfo wiring diagrams show the pins that it would be going into in either place. I don't know where yours is going, but I suspect that it might be going into the amp. I don't have a current bmwtechinfo subscription, but if you have access to a wiring diagram of your car's amplifier wiring, email it to me and I will let you know (bimmerfest at avincar.com )

If it is going into the amp at present, you *could* re-route it into the tuner module - but on the 2005 X5 we did, I couldn't get the tuner module to pass the audio through. (Muting worked just fine with no work on our part). We took it to a shop and tried recoding with no result.

So eventually we took the speaker-level output of the BT kit and connected it to a new speaker under the dash, and everything worked fine.



OK, couple of things:

1) I hates MB Quart. They are not expensive in my opinion in a literal sense, but are overpriced for their performance. Distant mids, eventually fatiguing highs.

2) Are you married to the idea of having rear deck speakers? They compromise stereo imaging and negatively affect sound quality, but many people won't let them go becuase they grew up with dad's car having speakers behind their heads. IF you are willing to not have rear speakers, you can get better sound by taking some of the savings and spending it on the front speakers, which are your biggest sound quality determinant.

3) If you decide what budget you truly are comfortable in spending, I and others can make more appropriate spending suggestions. I say this becayse I dn't think MB Quart speakers are that expensive (I think they are overpriced for their performance, but I doon't think they are that expensive). So I want to have an idea of what you are looking for.

Does that car have a ski pass? Does it have folding rear seats?Im not stuck on anything nor a name brand, I dont care what brand they are as long as it sounds good, only requirement is stealth. What speakers do you recommend for the front, why no speakers in the rear?

I installed the 10 band eq in the trunk in the tray under the CD changer, it was used as kind of set it and forget it, I like to bump up the bass, lower the mid-range and bump up the high end

el_duderino
11-09-2005, 05:06 PM
If you like to bump up those as a matter of course, it can mean a couple of things (possibly more than one). No offense meant by any of this... if they don't aopply to you, they could apply to someone.

1) You have purchased audio systems in the past that did not sound right without EQ-ing. (Solve this by better system design up front).

2) You prefer bright highs and lots of midbass whether the recording sounds that way or not. Some people are like that. I can't design systems that these people like and that I like, because I like realistic highs with detail, but NOT bright, forward, or hard-sounding highs. YOu can think of it either as personal preference OR as a preference for sensation over accuracy.

3) Your high-frequency hearing, like all males over 20-25, could be deteriorating. Some guys' hearing at the top end drops off at a younger age than others. A good friend of mine had me set up a nice high end audio system for him and he immediately turned the high end up all the way. Sounded terrible to me, but he needed it.

If the speakers are right, and the install is right, you don't NEED to do what you're describing.

If you're going to do it anyway because you want to, it's your car, you can do whatever you want - but I'll tell you right now, that's not a job I would take on at my shop, because we're about fidelity, not impressiveness.

There are two kinds of people who get higher-performance audio system upgrades: People who want high fidelity, and people who want it to sound impressive. They are different goals. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be impressive - it's easier and sometimes cheaper than wanting to havea high level of fidelity - but it's a different goal.

Why no speakers in the rear?

"Stereo" is NOT another word for "audio". It's a specific effect - the word is derived from the Greek for "solid" - for creating a three-dimensional illusion of the original performance.

If you sit in front of a stereo system - by definition, it's a two-speaker stereo system - it can create a pinpoint impression of where various instruments and performers were recorded to be.

Adding rear speakers which play the same information as the fornt speakers does not enhance this illusion - it fouls it up.

If you hear the same note coming from more than two speakers at the same time, and if one of the speakers is behind you, your ability to determine location is all messed up - relative to how the stereo recording engineer recorded it.

This is no Dolby 5.1 surround - there is not a discrete set of channels for the rears. It's the same as the fronts.

You go to a concert and listen to musicians who play on a stage in front of you. The only time you sit with your back to the stage is if you get to a jazz club late or you are wearing a windbreaker that says SECURITY on the back in yellow letters. Not much market demand for recreating that effect...

However, many people are emotionally more confortable with rear mid and high-frequency speakers. Scientists think that it's because many of us grew up with rear deck speakers in Dad's car, and we feel good hearing that. Maybe. But it's not part of a high-fidelity stereo experience.

(Subwoofers are OK, when they are true subs, which play notes so low that we can't tell where they are. If you CAN tell where they are, they are crossod over too high, playing too loud, or the fronts are not playing enough low notes...)

damills
11-09-2005, 05:29 PM
If you like to bump up those as a matter of course, it can mean a couple of things (possibly more than one). No offense meant by any of this... if they don't aopply to you, they could apply to someone.

1) You have purchased audio systems in the past that did not sound right without EQ-ing. (Solve this by better system design up front).

2) You prefer bright highs and lots of midbass whether the recording sounds that way or not. Some people are like that. I can't design systems that these people like and that I like, because I like realistic highs with detail, but NOT bright, forward, or hard-sounding highs. YOu can think of it either as personal preference OR as a preference for sensation over accuracy.

3) Your high-frequency hearing, like all males over 20-25, could be deteriorating. Some guys' hearing at the top end drops off at a younger age than others. A good friend of mine had me set up a nice high end audio system for him and he immediately turned the high end up all the way. Sounded terrible to me, but he needed it.

If the speakers are right, and the install is right, you don't NEED to do what you're describing.

If you're going to do it anyway because you want to, it's your car, you can do whatever you want - but I'll tell you right now, that's not a job I would take on at my shop, because we're about fidelity, not impressiveness.

There are two kinds of people who get higher-performance audio system upgrades: People who want high fidelity, and people who want it to sound impressive. They are different goals. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be impressive - it's easier and sometimes cheaper than wanting to havea high level of fidelity - but it's a different goal.

Why no speakers in the rear?

"Stereo" is NOT another word for "audio". It's a specific effect - the word is derived from the Greek for "solid" - for creating a three-dimensional illusion of the original performance.

If you sit in front of a stereo system - by definition, it's a two-speaker stereo system - it can create a pinpoint impression of where various instruments and performers were recorded to be.

Adding rear speakers which play the same information as the fornt speakers does not enhance this illusion - it fouls it up.

If you hear the same note coming from more than two speakers at the same time, and if one of the speakers is behind you, your ability to determine location is all messed up - relative to how the stereo recording engineer recorded it.

This is no Dolby 5.1 surround - there is not a discrete set of channels for the rears. It's the same as the fronts.

You go to a concert and listen to musicians who play on a stage in front of you. The only time you sit with your back to the stage is if you get to a jazz club late or you are wearing a windbreaker that says SECURITY on the back in yellow letters. Not much market demand for recreating that effect...

However, many people are emotionally more confortable with rear mid and high-frequency speakers. Scientists think that it's because many of us grew up with rear deck speakers in Dad's car, and we feel good hearing that. Maybe. But it's not part of a high-fidelity stereo experience.

(Subwoofers are OK, when they are true subs, which play notes so low that we can't tell where they are. If you CAN tell where they are, they are crossod over too high, playing too loud, or the fronts are not playing enough low notes...)I know what your saying, I take ZERO offense because basically no one has ever paid my bills for me so I just do what I like to do, I never worry about impressing people, no offense. SO I guess I like to think I like true audio reproduction but I have to admit, I like to modify it, I like the turn up the bass, turn down the mid-range and turn up the highs. Its not to impress anyone believe me, I dont ride around town with it turned up because it looks kinda redneck, but I commute about 20 miles (one way) on an old country road (40mph speed limit), I just like how what I described sounds.

I remember years ago when I was into home audio (college days, 76-81), I took out a loan at the credit union to buy luxman r1050 rosewood cabinet, epicure speakers, at the time nice stuff, I would hit the loudness button and crank up the treble, all the audiophiles (when someone bought a new system, everyone had to come listen to it) would say why, man thats not the true sound, I just like it like that.

A good story about those times were while in college I worked in a group that did drafting, we had to work 16hrs/week and could schedule work around school which was great, had about 50 people in the group (late 70's), anyway, back then coworkers would hang up posters of the home audio (sales stuff) in the cubes, seem to know everything, could recite thd on certain systems, how speakers were made, all kinds of techical stuff, anyway another guy (not really into audio) went out and bought a new system, came to work and some were again talking about audio, someone asked him, he said yeah, I just got a new one, they said (as all enthusiasts) would say, what did you get, what are the specs, etc. He said I dont rightly know but the PPK was pretty good, anyway the audio experts not to be embarrased walked away, didnt have a clue what PPK was and didnt want to be embarrased by asking because someone else may know and they would thing, MAN you know that, hehehehe. Anyway, one of them got the nerve the next day to ask, said hey what does PPK stand for, he said Price Per damn Knob, he liked what he bought and he was happy with it, you would had to been there but it was funny at the time, I think they didnt talk about specs to much more after that, ha!

Anyway, since I like what I like what do you recommend for speakers front and rear, trust me I know what your talking about or at least think I do, for my needs what would you buy?

damills
11-10-2005, 10:23 AM
Oh, and the 2005 X5 I converted from DSP to non-DSP, we did not retain the bluetooth functionality until we added a dedicated speaker. The muting and onscreen functions worked fine but the BT audio that goes into the amp we re-routed to the tuner module like it is in non DSP car -0 but no go.

If you don't have DSP, then it should be fine...Sent you an email, hope the address is correct. To get around wanting to keep the OEM headunit, I looked into installing the headunit in the trunk and using some type of IR device to utilize the remote, drawback is one would not be able to see the aftermarket headunit display in the trunk but advantage is having an aftermarket headunit. Is this a crazy idea?

I know you will think this is crazy, on a config where I use the OEM headunit, replacing speakers, sub and amp, is there a way to add Loudness capabilty to the system?