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DonziJosh
11-22-2005, 01:03 PM
Another thread mentioned the front bias on the Logic 7 system and it got me thinking.

On my '06 330i, people get into my car and seem to think I've got my stereo adjusted incorrectly. (Reminds me of ex-girlfriends who would drive around with the balance all the way to the left or right and not notice... haha)

I guess when they call this a "surround sound" system, they mean it the same way a home surround sound system has a front bias with background filler giving it an immersive effect. Or.. maybe not?

Are you guys fading your system to the rear? When I do that, it seems to alter the tonal quality of the sound, even if it makes the dispersion of sound seem more balanced. I guess I'm just used to a more conventional, small speakers up front / big speakers in back setup.

I like the sound of this system overall, I'm just not used to a car system sounding this way, and it doesn't seem like anyone who has listened to my stereo is used to it either.

So I guess the question is, what are the ideal settings for this thing?

J.

MarcusSDCA
11-22-2005, 01:13 PM
I've noticed that there is a front bias which is fine by me....I wrote the check for the car. :angel:

That said, I have faded back a couple of clicks too...permanently. The system sounds great...and lately I've been listening to classical CDs which are just amazing on the Logic7.

But "surround sound" is usually for movies and I'm not sure that just a music CD or FM stereo is set up for surround sound. Most music won't have a rear channel track like a movie will. Right? So if what you're listening to isn't recorded with surround sound technology then how can it really sound like surround sound?

tierfreund
11-22-2005, 01:49 PM
Having a rear bias of music in the car was never "normal" or "correct" or even "good".

It only stemmed form the fact that when car stereos first came up the car manufacturers hadn´t made povisions for decent sized stereo speaker setups in front. At best there were tiny holes for tiny speakers that could neither play loud nor well. So the easiest (aftermarket) fix was to put bigger speakers in the back. Just cut a hole in the rear parcel shelf and of you go. That would play louder and actually reproduce a bit of bass.

Unfortunately through this we have all been conditioned to think that´s the way a stereo in a car should sound.

Unles your in the habbit of standing with your back to the stage in a concert, it shouldn´t

You wouldn´t put huge speakers behind the couch in your livingroom and small ones next to the TV either now would you?

So the front bias of the Logic 7 is a sign of a good system, not a bad one. Do not use the fader to get a rear bias. You will not only mess up the tonal balance but also the front staging that the Harmann engineers put so much effort into. The rear speaker in the L7 are meant and built not to carry the actual music signal but only a spatial effects signal. That´s why the tonal balance shifts when you trim your car to the rear because the rear speakers are menat to carry only certain frequencies. BMW should have left the fade away, but then could you imagine the Rants that we would be seeing here?

So put all settings to neutral (the Logic 7 really does sound best and most natural that way) and relax. Get used to it and over time you will find that the listening experience is much more natural and rewarding in this setting.

after you´ve accustomed yourself to higher class musical reproduction, you´ll be the one wondering whenever you ride with friends why they have stereo setup that sound so annoyingly wrong.

So when somebody gets into your car and complains your stereo sounds strange just look at him arrogantly and call him a phillistine. :rofl:

Btw, I used to tweak and judge on competition grade car stereo systems. And the best of those had tiny or no rear speakers at all. In fact I won national finals with a car without any rear speakers

FRONT STAGING IS GOOD :D

JSpira
11-22-2005, 02:01 PM
Having a rear bias of music in the car was never "normal" or "correct" or even "good".

It only stemmed form the fact that when car stereos first came up the car manufacturers hadn´t made povisions for decent sized stereo speaker setups in front. At best there were tiny holes for tiny speakers that could neither play loud nor well. So the easiest (aftermarket) fix was to put bigger speakers in the back. Just cut a hole in the rear parcel shelf and of you go. That would play louder and actually reproduce a bit of bass.

Unfortunately through this we have all been conditioned to think that´s the way a stereo in a car should sound.

Unles your in the habbit of standing with your back to the stage in a concert, it shouldn´t

You wouldn´t put huge speakers behind the couch in your livingroom and small ones next to the TV either now would you?

So the front bias of the Logic 7 is a sign of a good system, not a bad one. Do not use the fader to get a rear bias. You will not only mess up the tonal balance but also the front staging that the Harmann engineers put so much effort into. The rear speaker in the L7 are meant and built not to carry the actual music signal but only a spatial effects signal. That´s why the tonal balance shifts when you trim your car to the rear because the rear speakers are menat to carry only certain frequencies. BMW should have left the fade away, but then could you imagine the Rants that we would be seeing here?

So put all settings to neutral (the Logic 7 really does sound best and most natural that way) and relax. Get used to it and over time you will find that the listening experience is much more natural and rewarding in this setting.

after you´ve accustomed yourself to higher class musical reproduction, you´ll be the one wondering whenever you ride with friends why they have stereo setup that sound so annoyingly wrong.

So when somebody gets into your car and complains your stereo sounds strange just look at him arrogantly and call him a phillistine. :rofl:

Btw, I used to tweak and judge on competition grade car stereo systems. And the best of those had tiny or no rear speakers at all. In fact I won national finals with a car without any rear speakers

FRONT STAGING IS GOOD :D
Excellent analysis. I think the most important point is to set the system to neutral. Of course, what hasn't been discussed is whether Logic7 was turned on and, if so, to which setting. I preferred concert hall and kept everything fairly neutral.

el_duderino
11-22-2005, 02:15 PM
Rear speakers for 2-channel stereo are a communist plot.

mkh
11-22-2005, 05:33 PM
I guess when they call this a "surround sound" system, they mean it the same way a home surround sound system has a front bias with background filler giving it an immersive effect. Or.. maybe not?
Surround sound is for movies ONLY. For music, the correct terminology should be "Multichannel". In a correctly setup multichannel system, the rear channels are ONLY for the recreation of hall ambience and spatial cues, not for direct sound sources, and they should be set at VERY LOW volume (ie. you can only hear them with you ear against the speakers, otherwise you won't even notice their presence). All direct sound sources should be coming from the front. For example, if you hear a system with music or vocals coming from the rear speakers - this is a wrong setup!

For car audio, before DSP technology, rear speakers are designed for rear passengers, not for surround effect. Now with DSP, such as the Logic 7, manufacturers are trying to implement home mutichannel audio into automobile. So, do not use (or setup) your Logic 7 as a surround sound system because they are not intended to be used that way.

Your friends think you've got your system adjusted incorrectly because they have no idea of what surround sound and mutichannel is.

el_duderino
11-22-2005, 06:35 PM
Surround sound is for movies ONLY. For music, the correct terminology should be "Multichannel". In a correctly setup multichannel system, the rear channels are ONLY for the recreation of hall ambience and spatial cues, not for direct sound sources, and they should be set at VERY LOW volume (ie. you can only hear them with you ear against the speakers, otherwise you won't even notice their presence). All direct sound sources should be coming from the front. For example, if you hear a system with music or vocals coming from the rear speakers - this is a wrong setup!

For car audio, before DSP technology, rear speakers are designed for rear passengers, not for surround effect. Now with DSP, such as the Logic 7, manufacturers are trying to implement home mutichannel audio into automobile. So, do not use (or setup) your Logic 7 as a surround sound system because they are not intended to be used that way.

Your friends think you've got your system adjusted incorrectly because they have no idea of what surround sound and mutichannel is.

I thought mine was more concise.

tierfreund
11-22-2005, 10:49 PM
Rear speakers for 2-channel stereo are a communist plot.

:rofl: :thumbup:

DonziJosh
11-23-2005, 06:04 AM
Unfortunately through this we have all been conditioned to think that´s the way a stereo in a car should sound.

Unles your in the habbit of standing with your back to the stage in a concert, it shouldn´t

You wouldn´t put huge speakers behind the couch in your livingroom and small ones next to the TV either now would you?

FRONT STAGING IS GOOD :D


Excellent points!

On the way to work this morning I had adjusted the fade to the rear about 4 or 5 clicks to imitate the sound dispersion of "traditional" car stereo setups (as one poster had suggested in another thread) and yeah... the sound got muddy.

So, front staging it is! Thanks to all.

J.

gr8sho
11-29-2005, 06:21 AM
Excellent analysis. I think the most important point is to set the system to neutral. Of course, what hasn't been discussed is whether Logic7 was turned on and, if so, to which setting. I preferred concert hall and kept everything fairly neutral.

Do you have iDrive? The only cboices I have in my non i-Drive car are Music and Cinema. BTW, there is NO mention of these setting in my OM.

For grins based on this thread, I tried both the music and the cinema settings. Made NO difference playing MP3s but it had a pronounced effect on FM radio. For morning talk radio, using cinema mode made use of the center speaker and music setting was more like traditional strereo with the music biased in the front left corner of the car from what I can tell.