What has happened to BMW?

[billinstuart]

Good evening all. I just joined, in an attempt to possibly explain some of the aspects about why I'm terminally disappointed in my new 325i, and change my opinion to favorable. I can feel underneath all the superfluous electronic crap there's a really good car screaming to get out. I don't trust the dealer, and BMW NA doesn't feel like they should reply. Have I missed something??

[Llando88]

What is your issue?

[billinstuart]

I don't like a car telling me what it wants to do. I can't permanently disengage the worthless traction control, and because of that got stuck the other day. The brakes are great from 90 mph, but impossible to apply/modulate at low speeds. Probably part of the "pretensioning" system I really don't like the fact that BMW doesn't want me to know anything about the car, or perform any routine maintenance. Controls are overly complex and for the most part useless or simply toys. Can't refer to the manual, cuz it's in the trunk. Is the spare in the glovebox? (oh yea, no spare, not all bad). BMW used to be a great drivers car, but now it's just gimmicky transportation for little old ladies. Unfortunately, this criticism is not just about BMW, but many other German cars as well. The statement was made "Porsche doesn't understand cup holders". Well, BMW does, unfortunately.

[gbelton]

I don't like a car telling me what it wants to do. I can't permanently disengage the worthless traction control, and because of that got stuck the other day. The brakes are great from 90 mph, but impossible to apply/modulate at low speeds. Probably part of the "pretensioning" system I really don't like the fact that BMW doesn't want me to know anything about the car, or perform any routine maintenance. Controls are overly complex and for the most part useless or simply toys. Can't refer to the manual, cuz it's in the trunk. Is the spare in the glovebox? (oh yea, no spare, not all bad). BMW used to be a great drivers car, but now it's just gimmicky transportation for little old ladies. Unfortunately, this criticism is not just about BMW, but many other German cars as well. The statement was made "Porsche doesn't understand cup holders". Well, BMW does, unfortunately.

With all that said, you might want to consider selling your BMW 325 and focus on the American market. It's really dissapointing to hear your opinions about European and Asian automotive engineering but you will soon become even more pissed when the American market catches up. They will(American automotive engineering) because this is the way of staying highly competitive. It's coming my friend...

Hey, I hear your cry about not being able to maintain your cars, especially the newer BMWs. Good luck and try not to blame BMW, AUDI, Mercedes, and other auto manufactures for adding technilogical advances the people and the government has asked for...

[billinstuart]

Good design, and engineering, is the process of solving a problem efficiently. Usually, the simplist, most reliable method is desired.."straightforward" engineering. Unfortunately, BMW has forgotten this, or chooses to ignore it...even their service publication "Techdrive" alludes to the fact that BMW designs their DSC/AST systems for the less competent "drivers", or should we simply call them "vehicle operators"?

My complaint is their overcomplex systems simply don't work well, and are ergonomically not up to par with the rest of the vehicle. Trying to keep up with the Asian car makers? Japanese TRY to get over the speed limit (100km/hr) but can't because of traffic...and THIS is your benchmark?? Japanese cars are generally not drivers cars. Period.

This isn't my first German car, but first BMW. Actually, it's my wifes, that's why I'm stuck with it. But the situation is so bad that we fight everytime I have to drive the damn thing. Hopefully it will get wrecked..and I hope the safety stuff works, but I'm not real optimistic.

[Lanc3r]

Good design, and engineering, is the process of solving a problem efficiently. Usually, the simplist, most reliable method is desired.."straightforward" engineering. Unfortunately, BMW has forgotten this, or chooses to ignore it...even their service publication "Techdrive" alludes to the fact that BMW designs their DSC/AST systems for the less competent "drivers", or should we simply call them "vehicle operators"?

My complaint is their overcomplex systems simply don't work well, and are ergonomically not up to par with the rest of the vehicle. Trying to keep up with the Asian car makers? Japanese TRY to get over the speed limit (100km/hr) but can't because of traffic...and THIS is your benchmark?? Japanese cars are generally not drivers cars. Period.

This isn't my first German car, but first BMW. Actually, it's my wifes, that's why I'm stuck with it. But the situation is so bad that we fight everytime I have to drive the damn thing. Hopefully it will get wrecked..and I hope the safety stuff works, but I'm not real optimistic.



:rofl:

May we ask, what is your car?


Edit: Chevy truck?

:confused: :rofl:

[procrit]

I am sorry to hear this BillinStuart. is it so complex because of the options you have on this vehicle or are all BMW this complex? perhaps you should take it back to your dealer and ask them to demonstrate & explain it to you in the simplest terms.

[beewang]

...
This isn't my first German car, but first BMW. Actually, it's my wifes, that's why I'm stuck with it. .....

I know your post is Chum Bait, but I'll bite, so here goes:

1) You are NOT stuck with it because it "ain't" your car

2) If your wife agress with you then you need to dump the car and get one of these babies... its everything you wanted and nuthing more

http://tinyurl.com/y2nksm

3) Base on your comments I must assume you are still leasing one of these phones from MaBell

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:-LLmYUXOc0UrWM:http://www.nlol.org/images/phone_rotary.jpg:tsk:

[beewang]

Good design, and engineering, is the process of solving a problem efficiently. Usually, the simplist, most reliable method is desired.."straightforward" engineering. Unfortunately, BMW has forgotten this, or chooses to ignore it...even their service publication "Techdrive" alludes to the fact that BMW designs their DSC/AST systems for the less competent "drivers", or should we simply call them "vehicle operators"?

Your comments are outrageously ABSURD!, the traction controls is created originally for Formula 1 racing (read: the pinnacle of automobile racing, the BEST DRIVERS in the WORLD). The technologies as such triggles down to passenger vehicle as the cost is brought down to a commercial viable level. It is teh same thing with the ABS system. Fact is safety technologies such as ABS, DTC (aka Traction Control) saves lives regardless of the skill level of the drivers.



My complaint is their overcomplex systems simply don't work well, and are ergonomically not up to par with the rest of the vehicle. Trying to keep up with the Asian car makers? Japanese TRY to get over the speed limit (100km/hr) but can't because of traffic...and THIS is your benchmark?? Japanese cars are generally not drivers cars. Period.

Since you are new at the BMW gig, I will let you slide on this one. Do a lil' research and you will realize that everthing BMW designed and created in the last decade is being analyzed and copied by the Japanese/Korean auto industry. We all have the tendecy to blur things out and act as if we are knowledgeble. But a lil's research will add credibility to your statement and at the minimum, make an A$$ of out yourself.


...This isn't my first German car, but first BMW. ....

BMW is a much different car than Volkswagen....;)

[billinstuart]

A couple comments:

1) As an avid ex sportscar racer, I'm aware of the sophisticated electronics on F1. I believe it was banned, and many drivers rejected it because they could do as well without it. Same with ABS. And quite frankly, you can't race or aggressively drive a current car without removing/deactivating all the supposed "electronic driver enhancements". So it's not "absurd". And yes, I'm pissed because I wasted my money on the car, even if my wife drives it. Sometimes I gotta ride with her cuz she won't always ride in my truck. (A word of caution, you can criticize anything you want except a mans truck!)

2) I guess I'm just old school. I DRIVE my cars, and I certainly don't need the car telling me what it wants to do. BTW, the car is just a 325i. I consider myself pretty technically savvy..I understand digital engine management, and the DSC with yaw sensors, etc., but if they insist on building cars for the masses, then even non-tech types should be able to operate them. The bottom line is..I simply don't think BMW did a good job with this car. They have a terrific platform, but dropped the ball on the details.

3) '66Mustang GT. Had one, new, 225 hp/4speed. Also had a 66 GT350H. Y'know, the stock new Mustang will blow the doors off even the old Shelby. Well, so would my 71 300SEL6.3.

[Rsavory]

As you know, the 325i is the base model designed for the masses, not the enthusiast. I'll bet that if you tried on an M3 or a 330i coupe with a manual tranny you would like it just fine.

I'm not a racer, but I know that there are lots of enthusiasts out there who love BMWs. They can't all be wrong.

[NateXTR]

Wow! I***8217;ve got to weigh in on this. I have a feeling that you don't fully appreciate your new car. Maybe in Florida things like traction control and ABS are redundant to the skills of a good driver. However, in Connecticut, we have crazy drivers, snow, rain, and twisty, hilly roads that feature trees that like to jump out in front of cars. After driving a Toyota Tacoma for the better part of a decade, I can say that my new BMW is both an excellent ride and a thrill to own.

I honestly believe that my car is near perfect. It is smarter than I. Rain sensing wipers, adaptive headlights that come on when they decide that it is appropriate, keys that tell the car who is going to drive (and adjust it accordingly), and a silky-smooth transmission that lets me have a little fun when I want to, or just works when I don***8217;t.

Every day, I am glad that German dudes in white lab-coats deemed my lowly 325 deserving of the abovementioned features. I'll even give up a dip-stick to have them.

[chuck92103]

I don't like a car telling me what it wants to do. I can't permanently disengage the worthless traction control, and because of that got stuck the other day. The brakes are great from 90 mph, but impossible to apply/modulate at low speeds. Probably part of the "pretensioning" system I really don't like the fact that BMW doesn't want me to know anything about the car, or perform any routine maintenance. Controls are overly complex and for the most part useless or simply toys. Can't refer to the manual, cuz it's in the trunk. Is the spare in the glovebox? (oh yea, no spare, not all bad). BMW used to be a great drivers car, but now it's just gimmicky transportation for little old ladies. Unfortunately, this criticism is not just about BMW, but many other German cars as well. The statement was made "Porsche doesn't understand cup holders". Well, BMW does, unfortunately.

Wow, don't know what to say to you. :dunno: BMW sales have tripled over the last 10 years topping over 1 millions units. Despite some quality issues, folks are still buying the ultimate driving machines at premium prices. Admittedly, a BMW is not for everyone.

[bimmerguy]

I agree on some points, I see no need for Idrive or Active steering. Or at least hide the Idrive under a cover, so I don't have to look at it. Very few electric power steering racks come close to the feel of a good hydraulic unit, even BMW admits this, by not using the standard electric rack on the M roadster/coupe.

I do think DSC is a very good thing to have on your side. Its like having a guardian :angel:

I love the SMG on the M3 but out of warrenty, it could get ugly.

[ajfB004]

I drove a 330i while the 7er was in for sercvice and I was imressed. i thought the car handeled well and was a flat out fast car. Have a 67 GTA 390 in the garage also and I will tell ya this the 330 was more fun ( except for teh exhaust note) becaus eit corners so well completely under control. The Mustang is a great straight line car and sounds mean but the 330 was dream.

[mason]

Well, all the controls seem very intuitive to me. Both my and I have tough time to understand why people complain about the iDrive. You sound like you only want to bare bone car. By the way, Senna was killed in Italy the very next year when F1 banned traction control.

May be an old, inefficient and noisy American car is for you.

I am going to be brave here. I THINK MUSTANG IS A AWFUL LOOKING CAR. I HAVE NEVER LIKED IT AND I ENVER WILL.

[Penforhire]

I understand some of your complaints but in the end analysis if you truly are "old school" then you should drive an old car.

I know of no car made with traction control that lets you permanently switch it off. They all re-engage at ignition on to avoid liability issues. How did you "get stuck" with it on? I find BMW's TC to be much less intrusive than my last car's TC (C5 Z06) and in my daily drive I have no incentive to turn it off.

I agree that low speed brake modulation is difficult but who really cares? Are you trying to literally stop on a dime? I'll accept some rough stops at low speeds for the benefits of self-drying pre-tensioning brakes. The braking from high speed is magnificent and that is what matters.

Is the car overly complex? It is if you think it is. IMO it is only a small ways along toward the future of electronics in cars. Do I like not having a dip stick? No, but I'll get over it.

edit - By the way, traction control is very evident in current F1 racing. That is the very reason Jenson Button qualified poorly for Honda but drove a magnificent race in Brazil. His TC system was whacked out in Quali.

[billinstuart]

In sand, sometimes you just kinda bull yer way thru it. Stopped dead 20 feet in, accelerator on the floor. I've driven all over Yurrip, and I can see where the mindset for their traction control comes from. However, not everyone lives in the land of frozen water.

I'm glad your key works..mine doesn't. Neither do the inertia reels on the belts, or the a/c, or the oil level readout, or the automatic mirror settings,...ad nauseum.

A truly intuitive system would use the air temp sensor to realize that at 90 degrees there was no snow, and with no wiper action there was no water to cause wheelslip. The car simply isn't as smart as you think it is..and if you're satisfied with that, you need a drivers school.

Senna died from a broken steering shaft thru his body at Imola. Had nothing to do with traction control. Ugly. Knew it was bad when the stewards just stared at the car.

Yes, the basic car is great..well balanced, that great inline 6, exceptional economy (has BMW adopted the wideband O2 sensor technology?), sturdy body structure, decent brakes from speed, all the attributes BMW has had for years. Yes they sell well. Of course the doctors wives and the gold chain set buy them..and BMW caters to them because they gots the money. It's not a car, it's rolling bling.

Frankly, the current car encourages complacency. It encourages non-interactive driving. Go ahead and talk on yer damn cellphone..if you get in over your head it will help keep you from rearending that Caddy in front of you. It pretends to monitor everything..lets the driver be a non-participant in the transportation experience.

Gee, a basic car. One where the driver is responsible for the actions of the car. What a unique idea. Effective creature comfort features. Fun to drive, handles well, quiet and comfortable. Dependable. Know anyone who produces such a vehicle? I do. BMW. But not in the last couple years.

[chuck92103]

There are plenty of "basic" cars available for you folks to buy. If you want basic go to one of the other brands.

However, BMW is one of many premium brands in which customers pay premium prices for features. BMW is simply catering to their customers.

I would hate to go back to the days of the basic TV. No LCD, no remote, no pay per view, etc.

[NateXTR]

Gee, a basic car. One where the driver is responsible for the actions of the car. What a unique idea. Effective creature comfort features. Fun to drive, handles well, quiet and comfortable. Dependable. Know anyone who produces such a vehicle? I do. BMW. But not in the last couple years.

Maybe a MINI?

[Mark_325i]

I have an '03 E46 sedan and an '88 E30 cabrio. I recently had an E90 loaner when the E46 was in for service and, simply put, that car made me want to keep my existing BMWs forever. You can certainly see the progression from E30 to E46 -- and it stops right there. I guess the E90 started with a clean sheet of paper (or CAD screen).

In the older Bimmers I feel like I am the driver. In the E90, I felt like I was a data inputter.

[chuck92103]

In the older Bimmers I feel like I am the driver. In the E90, I felt like I was a data inputter.

It is called progress. Like any technology, embrace it or fall behind. I imagine in 100 years when folks are flying from their homes we will run into the same line of thinking. :rofl: Oh I wish I can drive again. The flight is so stressful and short.

[Mark_325i]

I don't know what you mean, Chuck. Sounds like you copied that off one of those corporate inspirational posters. ;)

[chuck92103]

I don't know what you mean, Chuck. Sounds like you copied that off one of those corporate inspirational posters. ;)


:rofl: Maybe. Of course I have been watching to many episodes of "Beyond Tomorrow" too. Does it show. :dunno:

I just love that show. :thumbup:

[mason]

Senna died from a broken steering shaft thru his body at Imola. Had nothing to do with traction control. Ugly. Knew it was bad when the stewards just stared at the car.


Yes, the broken shaft.......but wasn't it caused by the car crash due to loss of traction?? I still remember vividly that the car slammed right to the fence after coming from the corner. Thus, should taction control be responsible??

[Penforhire]

Perhaps upon entering 20' into sand you will now consider touching the button that turns off traction control? Your example is not a very relevant complaint for a street car wearing sporting rubber.

BMW is continuing to move toward electronic nannys. You might say BMW used to be your type of car. Maybe. But only during the same time period that everyone's car was low-tech.

Who makes your type of car these day? Not many in America these days. Probably just some econoboxes and expensive sports cars (thinking Lotus Elise). You are not going to find a luxury vehicle without all the nannies. They are part of the definition now.

[nelore]

I am so glad I have joined this forum..tons of good reading..waiting on my 04 330 ci ZHP coming from Denver and it should be here by tuesday, Nov 1. As for us, forida residents, we are really stuck here in the flatlands..We have to drive 8 hours just to see some twisting road fun..sad

[billinstuart]

Penforhire, I'm afraid you're correct. However, this shouldn't necessarily be construed as progress, unless you're a hopeless techie. Having followed threads for several days here, I realize the majority of current BMW owners are pretty detached from their vehicle mechanically. Unfortunately, this will continue, as even modifying an exhaust system can often set a code in the engine management system. Everything, including power window operation, is computer controlled.

My disappointment is the change from "drivers" car to "operators" car. All Americans have a "right" to drive, no matter how incompetent they are. This is BMW's (and the industries) response to the decline in ability, rolling appliances for the masses. Cute toys for people who live in a cocoon of paved roads and valet parking.

[Mark_325i]

"billinstuart"

You are a lawyer, no?

[Rob325_in_AZ]

Billinstuart, in complaining about BMWs, it might be helpful if you held out another car (from this decade) that represents your ideal.

My suspicion is that you can't. You're coming off as another old-timer complaining about the loss of "the good ole days".

I agree with you that technology for the sake of technology is not a good thing (see idrive, especially early versions), but most technology has a reason.

Like it or not BMW is a luxury brand as well as a sport/enthusiast marque. Perhaps not so skewed toward luxury as Lexus, but in that general category. These cars are expensive.

You're complaining that people are 'removed from the driving experience' because they don't do a lot of maintainence themselves. Well, hello! these things aren't cheap. I have to work for a living. I'd lose more money by missing a day of work if I tried to stay home and fix it myself (assuming I could figure it out) than I would spend just taking it in to the dealer.

That doesn't mean I'm a badge-whore poser who lives life from valet to valet.

[chuck92103]

You're complaining that people are 'removed from the driving experience' because they don't do a lot of maintainence themselves. Well, hello! these things aren't cheap. I have to work for a living. I'd lose more money by missing a day of work if I tried to stay home and fix it myself (assuming I could figure it out) than I would spend just taking it in to the dealer.

That doesn't mean I'm a badge-whore poser who lives life from valet to valet.

Excellent point. We fight to make as much money as we can as we go through life. Yet we complain when the dealer wants $125 per hour to service a car. Factoring in overhead costs, the mechanic might be making $60-$80k per year. Barely enough to support a family in Socal.

If I took the time to change my oil, it would cost way more than the dealer charges.

Somehow we overlook the value of ones personal time or the value of spending time with family and friends. :)

[billinstuart]

Hardly an attorney, or a "suit" of any kind. I d have performed many mechanical repairs historically, but what really bothers me is the inability to form any kind of "bond" with the sterile thing. I feel like I'm contributing when I check the oil, tire pressure, etc. Just mundain maintenance. Sounds cheesy, but some cars have a "soul", a personality. Not this one. "Look at me, drive and feed me, but don't touch me. I predict in a few years ,there will be voice-over in cars.."Now Bill, aren't you going a little too fast..I'm gonna slow you down".

Quite frankly, any repair on a new, computer controlled car is out of reach of any individual, or even most non-factory repair shops for that matter. Despite the gubment and OBDII, only the factory shops have full access to all the necessary data streams, updates, flash codes, etc.

Expensive car? Not terribly. Old timer? Somewhat, but I keep up, and more importantly, have not lost track of what driving is all about. Ideal vehicle? Good question. Form follows function. Japanese? Naw, too gimmicky. Italian? Mixed bag, but I did like the Diesel Fiat wagon I drove all over Yurrip couple years ago. American? Some good stuff, some crap. 'Course there's always the pickup truck..unpretentious, functional, durable, fast,..hmmmm. BTW, why don't you see pickups in Europe?

[Penforhire]

A driver's vehicle? I suppose I ride a motorcycle to get closer to that experience. No sports car is as involving as a sporting motorcycle. If you want to be more involved with your drive maybe you should ride instead?

[Rob325_in_AZ]

Expensive car? Not terribly. Old timer? Somewhat, but I keep up, and more importantly, have not lost track of what driving is all about. Ideal vehicle? Good question. Form follows function. Japanese? Naw, too gimmicky. Italian? Mixed bag, but I did like the Diesel Fiat wagon I drove all over Yurrip couple years ago. American? Some good stuff, some crap. 'Course there's always the pickup truck..unpretentious, functional, durable, fast,..hmmmm. BTW, why don't you see pickups in Europe?
Pickup trucks? That's your idea of a driver's car? :confused: You're right, maybe a BMW is not for you. :dunno:

On the other hand, have you seen what pickup trucks have become? Monstrous beasts, with full extended cab, DVD players for the back seat... I would bet the electronics in the engine are becoming just as complicated and not for the do-it-yourselfer.

I don't do much more than check the tires (I'm kind of obsessive about that), check the oil, keep it clean, and take it in for scheduled maintainence. Oh, and drive it too - that is what I bought it for :p . I have no desire, nor the time, to become an auto-mechanic, nor do I feel that's required to enjoy my car.

[mason]

Pickup?? Loard my mercy. It is awful looking vehicle! It is like a fat slob wearing t-shirt and shorts walking into an opera hall. Technoligical advancement is all about further intergration and simiplication, doing more things with increasing simplicity. If you want to get your hands really dirty, you should get a car that built by Russia or China. You could then work on it everyday.

[billinstuart]

I guess no one read about criticizing a mans truck. And why on Gods green earth would someone who lives in NYC think they know how to drive a performance car. Anyone who thinks a navigation system or hands off bluetooth cell phone operation is an improvement sure as hell isn't a driver. And unfortunately, trucks are getting complicated, but no self respecting individual would own a jacked up 4wd 4 door truck, unless they also owned, or aspired to own, a BMW with nav system, rear backup alarm, hands off phone...

One thing this thread has done is make me aware that a large majority of BMW owners are elitist snobs who drive a BMW because it is just well built and decently fast bling. They think they're real drivers because of their car. Obviously I don't fit in here..I'm just a redneck truck owner who paid cash for his bimmer, certainly not "BMW material". I'll just reminisce about racing at Road Atlanta, and go back to Yurrip and drive real cars thru the Alps, while you wannabe racers figure out how to get your gold chain unwrapped from your cell phone.

I'm certain there are other real people who bought and drive BMW for their straightforward design great road manners. I apologize if I offend you, but you don't fit the category this is aimed at. But if you live in NYC, or brag about adding carbon fiber spoilers or some super sound system to your "drivers car" and criticize my position, you deserve worse.

This is my last post, for which many of you will be thankful. May you enjoy your futile life.

[gbelton]

Dude from Florida, it's not that serious and for what its worth the gold chain thing is reserved for Bentleys, Benzs, and RollsRoyce owners; good try though.:p

The thing about NYC is that it is close to NJ and Upstate NY where you can really drive any type of car that can muster the courage. [Twisties, etc...]

It's good to hear you go to RoadAltanta, so I guess this validates your ability to drive or watch others drive...:dunno:

Finally, you will meet many personalities on bimmerfest non of which are Elitist. They are passonate owners who are both drivers (in there own right) and car enthusiasts period.

Good luck with your life too.

[Gran Turismo]

BTW, why don't you see pickups in Europe?In Europe, a few (predominantly Japanese) pickups are actually bought - mainly by professionals who have the daily need to haul around smaller amounts of dirt/earth, building materials, plants and branches, etc.

Too bad you've already wrote your last post above, as otherwise you could have enlightened those uneducated European masses about the point of having their belongings getting wet and dirty in the back of a pickup... :rolleyes: It's also farther away to the next surf beach for most Europeans than in Florida, and those really needing lots of cargo space currently tend to chose i.e. a SUV as private car instead (dare I add for practical reasons?)

[mason]

I guess no one read about criticizing a mans truck. And why on Gods green earth would someone who lives in NYC think they know how to drive a performance car. Anyone who thinks a navigation system or hands off bluetooth cell phone operation is an improvement sure as hell isn't a driver. And unfortunately, trucks are getting complicated, but no self respecting individual would own a jacked up 4wd 4 door truck, unless they also owned, or aspired to own, a BMW with nav system, rear backup alarm, hands off phone...

One thing this thread has done is make me aware that a large majority of BMW owners are elitist snobs who drive a BMW because it is just well built and decently fast bling. They think they're real drivers because of their car. Obviously I don't fit in here..I'm just a redneck truck owner who paid cash for his bimmer, certainly not "BMW material". I'll just reminisce about racing at Road Atlanta, and go back to Yurrip and drive real cars thru the Alps, while you wannabe racers figure out how to get your gold chain unwrapped from your cell phone.

I'm certain there are other real people who bought and drive BMW for their straightforward design great road manners. I apologize if I offend you, but you don't fit the category this is aimed at. But if you live in NYC, or brag about adding carbon fiber spoilers or some super sound system to your "drivers car" and criticize my position, you deserve worse.

This is my last post, for which many of you will be thankful. May you enjoy your futile life.

I suppose a major caveat of some persons is generalization application. It is truly superficial for someone to believe people in NYC don't know performance vehicles (by the way, I don't believe a truck is a performance vehicle. It is utility / work vehicle) because that someone thinks NYC is all about Manhattan. It is even more disappointing to see someone blending certain super sound system, vehicle modifying and gold chain lifestyle onto the most of the urbanites. It only shows the unsophistication of that person.

If someone is believing BMW owners are some elite snobs, that person is uninformed and really shallow. One marketing report reported by Wall Street Journal actually pointed out that many snobs wouldn't instinctively think of buying a BMW when car shopping. BMW is actually hoping to get some snobs to splash some $$ on BMW cars.

If certain someone look for owners who like oversized spoilers and ear-breaking bass from the super sounsystem, he should look for Honda Civic and Toyota Zion owners instead of BMW's. The percentage is so much higher.

May be we do deserve worse because we do enjoy finer things in our lives. By the way, many of us do enjoy driving in the Alps that's why there is a European Delivery forum here.

[mwagner1]

Gosh,

If you dislike your BMW so much, there are plenty of wonderful Saturns, Fords, Chevy's, Buicks, Pontiacs etc out there!!! They all have such lovely interiors, great reliability records, great resale values, etc :p

Cheers,