Extended Oil Drain Interval Info

[Pinecone]

There is a test that can tell you how close to needing changing your oil is. It is the Total Base Number test (TBN test). It is an extra cost option from Blackstone Labs (www.blackstone-labs.com).

The TBN tells how much capcity the oil has to combat acid build up. The only normal reason to change oil. According to Blackstone when the TBN gets down to 2, you really should change your oil.

I just did an oil sample on our M3 with 9,366 miles on the oil (it was changed at 1156 miles). The TBN was 6.5, which means PLENTY of life left in the oil.

Freash Castrol 10W-60 TWS oil has a TBN of 9.5.

So figuring the life to be from 9.5 - 2, or a range of 7.5, my oil has used only 40% of its life.

If you REALLY want to know how your oil life is, do a sample at and get a TBN test done. If they do not have a baseline on fresh oil, they will do one for free to add to their data. Don't guess and use feelings about oil, get the real scoop.

[The HACK]

Originally posted by Pinecone
There is a test that can tell you how close to needing changing your oil is. It is the Total Base Number test (TBN test). It is an extra cost option from Blackstone Labs (www.blackstone-labs.com).

The TBN tells how much capcity the oil has to combat acid build up. The only normal reason to change oil. According to Blackstone when the TBN gets down to 2, you really should change your oil.

I just did an oil sample on our M3 with 9,366 miles on the oil (it was changed at 1156 miles). The TBN was 6.5, which means PLENTY of life left in the oil.

Freash Castrol 10W-60 TWS oil has a TBN of 9.5.

So figuring the life to be from 9.5 - 2, or a range of 7.5, my oil has used only 40% of its life.

If you REALLY want to know how your oil life is, do a sample at and get a TBN test done. If they do not have a baseline on fresh oil, they will do one for free to add to their data. Don't guess and use feelings about oil, get the real scoop.

Thank you...I guess more "oil" to add to the fire. :)

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by The HACK
Thank you...I guess more "oil" to add to the fire. :)

Cute. NOT. :p

Just trying to put some science into all the opinion ot there.

Spending more time looking at the numbers, there are also a lot of other things that are consumed in teh oil as you run it. I know about zinc as it protects against occasional bearing to bearing contact. The oil started with 950 ppm zinc and at 9,300 miles still had 855 ppm zinc. The other materials showing up int he fresh oil and showing lesser levels in the used oil are:

Boron 136 63
Calcium 1610 1515
Magnesium 582 554
Phosphorus 793 722
Zinc 950 855

Interesting stuff oil.

[phrider]

If you are not planning on changing your own oil, what is the easiest way to get a good oil sample for Blackstone?

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by phrider
If you are not planning on changing your own oil, what is the easiest way to get a good oil sample for Blackstone?

Two ways.

1) Ask the person doing the change to grab a sample while draining. Or ask to go and grap the sampel yourself once they start the oil draining.

2) Get a piece of stiff tubing and shove it down the oil dipstick hole and suck CAREFULLY on the end to bring up oil. Drain into the container, repeat until container is full.

The second method is how I got my sample as I was not planning on doing a change until according to the service indicator.

I will probably do a sample every 3K miles, at least for a while.

[Pinecone]

Another data point. A person posted over on the OTHER board, that after 6,388 miles, their TBN was down to 4.5 on an S54. The service life indicator showing this as about halfway to scheduled service.

That still works out to over 9,500 miles until the point of significant worry about the low TBN.

This person did NOT do the 1200 mile oil change and drives mostly short trips. This person also doesn't push their car, claiming to rarely do 80 MPH, and only once to 90 or higher.

My car was driven on several long trips, including several 600+ mile days, and most times when I drive it, it is driven close to 100 miles that day. Mine also had 5 track days on it.

Which emphasizes that short trips are the hardest thing on your engine and oil.

Based on this additional data point. I will continue to do 1000 - 1500 mile first oil changes on new vehicles. And I will start doing regular oil analysis BETWEEN oil changes to see what is going on. I figure 4,000 - 5,000 miles between oil analysis would be comfortable for me.

[The HACK]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Another data point. A person posted over on the OTHER board, that after 6,388 miles, their TBN was down to 4.5 on an S54. The service life indicator showing this as about halfway to scheduled service.

That still works out to over 9,500 miles until the point of significant worry about the low TBN.

This person did NOT do the 1200 mile oil change and drives mostly short trips. This person also doesn't push their car, claiming to rarely do 80 MPH, and only once to 90 or higher.

My car was driven on several long trips, including several 600+ mile days, and most times when I drive it, it is driven close to 100 miles that day. Mine also had 5 track days on it.

Which emphasizes that short trips are the hardest thing on your engine and oil.

Based on this additional data point. I will continue to do 1000 - 1500 mile first oil changes on new vehicles. And I will start doing regular oil analysis BETWEEN oil changes to see what is going on. I figure 4,000 - 5,000 miles between oil analysis would be comfortable for me.

This person also does not deserve an E46 M3. I saw the post you are referring to.

Stuka managed to BURN through enough gas to get oil change at around 10,000 miles (not counting an inbetween oil change by me). Would be interesting to see if "this person" will continue to pull his oil for analysis, this way we'd get a good comparison between people who DO drive their car as intended, and people who baby their car.

My vote goes for driving car hard.

[The Roadstergal]

What's up with Boron? The other elements were down a little, but it was more than halved.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by The HACK
This person also does not deserve an E46 M3. I saw the post you are referring to.

Stuka managed to BURN through enough gas to get oil change at around 10,000 miles (not counting an inbetween oil change by me). Would be interesting to see if "this person" will continue to pull his oil for analysis, this way we'd get a good comparison between people who DO drive their car as intended, and people who baby their car.

My vote goes for driving car hard.

It wasn't STuka that gave this data point. This person was ona pace to have the service at about 12,600 miles. And with a lot of short trips, I could see that.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by The Roadstergal
What's up with Boron? The other elements were down a little, but it was more than halved.

From the looks of it, boron part of some additive that is used up in the oil.

Fresh oil is 136. Mine was 63 after 9,366 miles, the other data point I have was 83 at 6,388 miles.

I know the zinc is part of an additive that prevents bearing wear when the oil film fails.

[The HACK]

Originally posted by Pinecone
It wasn't STuka that gave this data point. This person was ona pace to have the service at about 12,600 miles. And with a lot of short trips, I could see that.

I know...Stuka's the only person that I know that managed a first oil service before 10,000 miles though. :thumbup:

[Mystikal]

Originally posted by The HACK
I know...Stuka's the only person that I know that managed a first oil service before 10,000 miles though. :thumbup:

My God, that's pretty impressive. :yikes:

[Pinecone]

Definately.

Let's see 600 some odd gallons in under 10K miles. That's about 16.7 MPG average OR WORSE.

[The HACK]

Last time I checked, he's averaging about 15 miles to a gallon.

I think he just had inspection I done not too long ago at 19,000 miles. :D

I think it's entirely possible for him to get to inspection II before his full maintenance runs out. :thumbup:

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by The HACK
Last time I checked, he's averaging about 15 miles to a gallon.

I think he just had inspection I done not too long ago at 19,000 miles. :D

I think it's entirely possible for him to get to inspection II before his full maintenance runs out. :thumbup:

Only if he extended it to 50K. It doesn't look like he will quite make 36K Inspection II. :bigpimp:

[The HACK]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Only if he extended it to 50K. It doesn't look like he will quite make 36K Inspection II. :bigpimp:

The GAUNTLET has been thrown...I'll bet he CAN make it 36K Inspection II if he really tried. Especially since he's probably going to attempt attending every single track school listed on the schedule this year. :lmao:

Unfortunately his "blown engine" episode set him back a few miles, he couldn't redline every gear for another 1,200 miles with the rebuilt engine...:(

[Stuka]

Originally posted by The HACK
The GAUNTLET has been thrown...I'll bet he CAN make it 36K Inspection II if he really tried. Especially since he's probably going to attempt attending every single track school listed on the schedule this year. :lmao:

Unfortunately his "blown engine" episode set him back a few miles, he couldn't redline every gear for another 1,200 miles with the rebuilt engine...:(

The break in was over a few thousand miles ago. I do plan on going to as many schools as humanly and financially possible this year. :thumbup:

With 11 track days and never using 6th on the freeway, and 3rd on the surface street, I was able to clear inspection 1 by 19000 miles. This year, I plan on going to every single event, barring that pesky wedding thing in April.

It'll be intersting.;) That would be some kind of record, wouldn't it? :thumbup:

Andy
02 M3 CB/Cloth SMG

[Pinecone]

I you make it to Inspection II by 36,000, without cheating, I will be impressed.

By cheating, I mean taking a long trip in 3rd, etc to artificially lower gas mieage.

[scottn2retro]

Everyone is talking about mileage intervals for oil changes.

How about time intervals for cars that only go a few thousand miles per year? :dunno:

[Mystikal]

Originally posted by scottn2retro
Everyone is talking about mileage intervals for oil changes.

How about time intervals for cars that only go a few thousand miles per year? :dunno:

Once a year, I believe.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by scottn2retro
Everyone is talking about mileage intervals for oil changes.

How about time intervals for cars that only go a few thousand miles per year? :dunno:

Once per year is correct. BMW will perform the oil service every year as part of the free maintenance.

The deal is the service indicator should NOT be reset, unless the car is expected to make it to the scheduled service within 60 days.

So a very low mileage car could have a LOT of oil changes before Inspection I.

[StevzZ3]

That's good info Pineman. Thanks.
Steve H.:thumbup:

[JPinTO]

Thanks for the info & link. I'll be trying out their service.

[in_d_haus]

Originally posted by Pinecone

This person also doesn't push their car, claiming to rarely do 80 MPH, and only once to 90 or higher.



Sounds like ATYCLB :D

[Ausgang]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Cute. NOT. :p

Just trying to put some science into all the opinion out there....

(snip)

Boron 136 63
Calcium 1610 1515
Magnesium 582 554
Phosphorus 793 722
Zinc 950 855

Interesting stuff oil.

I agree with the premise, but I have my doubts about the test method and some of the assumptions.

That is, I agree with the premise that scientifically valid data should be used to better understand changing in-service oil properties. I further agree that that data should be used to establish control limits for characteristics which would justify replacement of the oil.

That said, I have many reservations about the apparent simplicity of the conclusions made by the referenced test method.

(1) First, why no mention of Sulpher? Is it not a component of our fuels, and an element OEMs and fuel producers have targeted as detrimental. There has been much focus on reduction of it in fuels. Are there other elements we should be concerned about as well?

(2) What is the test method? Is it an ASTM or SAE recognized method? Is it just one of the numerous test methods used by the petroleum industry? More importantly, what level of precision does the method have if for example someone were to do an R&R study on it. If it's an Optical Emission Spect. (burning) method for example, it is far more sensitive at detecting certain elements moreso than others.

(3) How are the control limits chosen? No matter how impressive the test method itself is, someone has to decide that some numerical value is 'low' or 'high' enough to trigger the need to change oil.

I don't know how much the test costs, but if it's as sophisticated as one would expect it would need to be, the simpler solution would be to simply changed one's oil well before it is 'necessary'.

Thanks for the info by the way. I just needed to point out my doubts in any one method or criteria being universal.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by Ausgang
I agree with the premise, but I have my doubts about the test method and some of the assumptions.

That is, I agree with the premise that scientifically valid data should be used to better understand changing in-service oil properties. I further agree that that data should be used to establish control limits for characteristics which would justify replacement of the oil.

That said, I have many reservations about the apparent simplicity of the conclusions made by the referenced test method.

(1) First, why no mention of Sulpher? Is it not a component of our fuels, and an element OEMs and fuel producers have targeted as detrimental. There has been much focus on reduction of it in fuels. Are there other elements we should be concerned about as well?

(2) What is the test method? Is it an ASTM or SAE recognized method? Is it just one of the numerous test methods used by the petroleum industry? More importantly, what level of precision does the method have if for example someone were to do an R&R study on it. If it's an Optical Emission Spect. (burning) method for example, it is far more sensitive at detecting certain elements moreso than others.

(3) How are the control limits chosen? No matter how impressive the test method itself is, someone has to decide that some numerical value is 'low' or 'high' enough to trigger the need to change oil.

I don't know how much the test costs, but if it's as sophisticated as one would expect it would need to be, the simpler solution would be to simply changed one's oil well before it is 'necessary'.

Thanks for the info by the way. I just needed to point out my doubts in any one method or criteria being universal.


1) Because I didn't post it. The ones I posted were interesting because those were values that went DOWN with use. The complete report is a full page.

2) Not sure which methods they use, but this lab has been around a LONG time (under a different name) and the testing is by recognized methods. Which set of methods are used is not important, AS LONG AS, you only compare results from a single lab. And as long as you trust the lab to do a good job (which I do). BTW this lab got started and still does, mainly aircraft engine oil samples, including turbine engeins.

3) They use other results of other of the same engines. So E46 S54 results are compared against the averages of all S54 engine results. At first they did have some strange numbers, but with more results in, they have removed those out of normal range results, like from engines with high lead that failed shortly thereafter.

The test is under $20 per test if you pay in advance for a number of tests. The TBN test is an extra $10. For those of use with S54 engines, and $9 per L engine oil, the tests make a lot of sense.

For all others, regular oil analysis is good to spot strange trends. An engine oil analyisis can even tell you to change your air filter (high silica). :)

[Pinecone]

Oops. Just re-read your post as I am home with the oil analysis results in hand.

Sulpher is a problem in DIESEL fuels. ANd that is the area where they are trying to drastically reduce it in the pump fuels. Europe has already done so. Since this was a test for a gasoline engine, no sulpher readings. It would probably be done in a diesel engine sample.


I just noticed on their page that they also offer a total particle count. An interesting test for those debating stock versus K&N versus ITG filters. :)

[The HACK]

Pinecome, if you don't mind posting the information for the oil analysis lab I'd greatly appreciate it...I need the name of the lab, address and contact phone number.

I plan on sending in my transmission oil for analysis after 5,000 miles, and the particulate test seems very interesting as well...I can put the stock airbox back into my wife's car and leave the K&N in my car and pull oil after 5,000 miles for test as well. How big of a sample do they need? 1 quart? A test tube full?

Thanks in advance.

[bluer1]

Originally posted by The HACK
I know...Stuka's the only person that I know that managed a first oil service before 10,000 miles though. :thumbup:

Without hitting the track, I tried.

I'm past due this week and sitting at ~11k miles.
:eeps:

And I don't have the benefit of sideways-M3-fun
that Stuka has, so I'm probably not nearly as
silly as I could be.

I drive my car, that's what it's for!
:thumbup:

[Kaz]

Originally posted by Pinecone

Sulpher is a problem in DIESEL fuels. ANd that is the area where they are trying to drastically reduce it in the pump fuels. Europe has already done so. Since this was a test for a gasoline engine, no sulpher readings. It would probably be done in a diesel engine sample.


Actually Sulfur is also an issue in gasoline. It is currently an issue in US diesel fuel, as its concentrations here do not allow the optimal use of the common and effective common-rail high pressure diesel injection systems in European and Japanese diesel passenger cars. This also applies to gasoline direct injection (VAG's FSI, Mitsubishi's GDI, etc.). These require low sulfur levels for similar reasons, which US gasoline (except in certain states like California) does not meet.

What I haven't researched yet is how Cummins' new common-rail system in the Dodge Ram and the direct injection system in the new BMW N73 V12 Valvetronic get around this.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by The HACK
Pinecome, if you don't mind posting the information for the oil analysis lab I'd greatly appreciate it...I need the name of the lab, address and contact phone number.

I plan on sending in my transmission oil for analysis after 5,000 miles, and the particulate test seems very interesting as well...I can put the stock airbox back into my wife's car and leave the K&N in my car and pull oil after 5,000 miles for test as well. How big of a sample do they need? 1 quart? A test tube full?

Thanks in advance.

Blackstone Labs www.blackstone-labs.com

I don't have a specific contact there. I called and ordered a dozen pre-paid kits. They even gave me a free test to get a sample run of Castrol 10W-60 TWS. If you do your tranny oil, you might want to dcall and ask about them doing a sample of the fresh oil.

The sample bottle is maybe 6 - 8 ounces. I grabbed the sample with a tube through the dipstick. Suck up a tube full, drain it into the container - repeat.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by Kaz
Actually Sulfur is also an issue in gasoline. It is currently an issue in US diesel fuel, as its concentrations here do not allow the optimal use of the common and effective common-rail high pressure diesel injection systems in European and Japanese diesel passenger cars. This also applies to gasoline direct injection (VAG's FSI, Mitsubishi's GDI, etc.). These require low sulfur levels for similar reasons, which US gasoline (except in certain states like California) does not meet.

What I haven't researched yet is how Cummins' new common-rail system in the Dodge Ram and the direct injection system in the new BMW N73 V12 Valvetronic get around this.

Why would sulpher be more of a problem in direct injection gasoline engines?

With diesels it has to do with emissions, not only for common rail engines, but all diesel engines.

[Kaz]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Why would sulpher be more of a problem in direct injection gasoline engines?


Not sure but I am sure it was the main technical reason (there are economic ones as well) both VAG and Mitsubishi have cited against bringing gasoline DI to the US.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by Kaz
Not sure but I am sure it was the main technical reason (there are economic ones as well) both VAG and Mitsubishi have cited against bringing gasoline DI to the US.

Interesting.

[Pinecone]

OK< I have started a TBN database. If anyone would like to contribute numbers, please email or send me a forum PM with the results of your test. I would like date of test, oil type, car model, total miles, miles on oil at test, and TBN.

[JetBlack330i]

Originally posted by Pinecone

Based on this additional data point. I will continue to do 1000 - 1500 mile first oil changes on new vehicles. And I will start doing regular oil analysis BETWEEN oil changes to see what is going on. I figure 4,000 - 5,000 miles between oil analysis would be comfortable for me.
This is all good and interesting and may make financial sense if you had to pay for all your oil changes and were trying to minimize the associated cost.
Given that BMW gives us a free oil changes every 15K miles or so (and the assumption is that we can't trust the indicator), what's the point of scientifically determining that the best oil change point is at 12K, since you'll take a free oil change 3K later anyways?
For me, I'll stick with my routine of taking all free changes from BMW and blindly paying for an intermediate change at 7.5K miles. Even if the test determined that I didn't need to at that point, it can't hurt, right?
Oh, and the very first change is right after burn-in, at 1200 miles, not before.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by JetBlack330i
This is all good and interesting and may make financial sense if you had to pay for all your oil changes and were trying to minimize the associated cost.
Given that BMW gives us a free oil changes every 15K miles or so (and the assumption is that we can't trust the indicator), what's the point of scientifically determining that the best oil change point is at 12K, since you'll take a free oil change 3K later anyways?
For me, I'll stick with my routine of taking all free changes from BMW and blindly paying for an intermediate change at 7.5K miles. Even if the test determined that I didn't need to at that point, it can't hurt, right?
Oh, and the very first change is right after burn-in, at 1200 miles, not before.

Because the information is there. And I want to know. :)

And at some point in time BMW will no longer be paying for oil changes. So it would nice to know then.

If you don't want to help gather info, then don't.

[Ausgang]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Because the information is there. And I want to know. :)

And at some point in time BMW will no longer be paying for oil changes. So it would nice to know then.

If you don't want to help gather info, then don't.

In the interest of the science behind these tests, I'd be interested in the uncertainty and R&R of the test method(s) used.

If you or someone were willing to submit multiple samples from the same oil drain service at different times over a period of time, I could run a statistical analysis on the test method. (The only other thing we would need for this is the link to a NIST-traceable reference standard.)

Without knowing the precision and bias of the test, the numbers themselves have limited value.

Just a suggestion and offer.

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by Ausgang
In the interest of the science behind these tests, I'd be interested in the uncertainty and R&R of the test method(s) used.

If you or someone were willing to submit multiple samples from the same oil drain service at different times over a period of time, I could run a statistical analysis on the test method. (The only other thing we would need for this is the link to a NIST-traceable reference standard.)

Without knowing the precision and bias of the test, the numbers themselves have limited value.

Just a suggestion and offer.

Actually the lab will probably supply this info. A lot of big operators will want that info. Also required for turbine engine work. Either that, or we can look at the way most of these tests are done. Most of the metals are done with a Atomic Absorbtion flame test.

TBN is likely to be a titration with acid.

[phrider]

Since I have an M Roadster with an S54 engine, I thought I ought to give it the Blackstone "blood test."

Fortunately, it was a boring result on potential bearing problems.

But I did have one surprise. I drive my car irregularly, and typically only for short runs in heavy city traffic (surface streets, not freeways) in LA. With only 3318 miles on the oil and 7900 miles on the engine, the lab reported a TBN of 3.5 on the TWS 10W/60 oil. They suggested going 4,500 miles on the next oil change.

So, in stop / start city driving, it looks like the oil tests UNDER 5000 miles for changes. Certainly not 10,000 or 15,000.

Or does someone have another perspective on this?

[TGD]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Once per year is correct. BMW will perform the oil service every year as part of the free maintenance.

In my car they changed the oil, but they did not perform the full service. They say there is no need and to wait for the proper oilservice.

[F1Crazy]

An update on TBN analysis, it was just posted by Terry, Blackstone labs analyst on bobistheoilguy.com:

Blackstone labs was using reagent strips in each Dyson Analysis kit to take TBN values which is fine and works great.

Blackstone just purchased a Mettler Toledo machine to be able to process more tests and to make the reading of the results more repeatable.

You will notice your TBN values reading relatively less than before.The machine takes some of the subjective readings out of the equation as the test strips were color coded to get the TBN value. Two different techs may see a different shade of a color!

I applaud Ryan,Kristin and all at the lab for stepping out spending the money and upgrading the TBN capability.


Polaris labs uses a similar technique and they are extremely accurate readings but will show lower relative levels than seen at other labs reports.

Canadian Wearcheck customers see this same type test based on my interpretations of same.

During the transition we are recalibrating and if you are having the results read by Myself will have this taken into consideration.

A rule of thumb that was used by Ryan was 2.0 TBN as a condemnation level, now use 1.0 TBN for that level.

Remember TBN is just one angle on a complex mixture of the oil analysis puzzle !

I know there was a lot of discussion recently about this issue and I hope that this new machine will provide the repeatability and accuracy that I am enjoying thus far with the Blackstone/Dyson co-op samples.

Terry

and here is the original thread: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000590

[F1Crazy]

BTW, Pinecone, did you get another sample tested?

Anybody else doing oil analysis here? Can you post your results?

[intempo]

Anyone have recommendation on the oil change interval during break-in? Should I stick to the BMW recommendation or is there a better recommendaton?

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by F1Crazy
BTW, Pinecone, did you get another sample tested?

Anybody else doing oil analysis here? Can you post your results?

The oil was changed about 1 month ago, but I left on a business trip, so haven't seen the results. They should be in the BIG pile of mail. :)

[Pinecone]

Originally posted by intempo
Anyone have recommendation on the oil change interval during break-in? Should I stick to the BMW recommendation or is there a better recommendaton?

For break in, just change at 1200 miles.

[Kempe]

fascinating. I just change the crap out of my oil. I get paranoid at 5K miles.