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View Full Version : S-03s are a real blast in sub-freezing weather.


Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 09:44 PM
Was out playing after going out with friends today.

Whee! It's fun to have the response of a summer tire with worse traction than contitouring contacts. Power oversteer is something I very rarely get to play with. :D

TD
12-29-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Was out playing after going out with friends today.

Whee! It's fun to have the response of a summer tire with worse traction than contitouring contacts. Power oversteer is something I very rarely get to play with. :D

I think you'd believe me when I say I can kick my tail out at will right now. It's kind of unnerving.

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by TD
I think you'd believe me when I say I can kick my tail out at will right now. It's kind of unnerving.

In an M3 I'd be unnerved. In my car, countersteering is a rare treat. ;) (And it still takes a hard 90 degree turn at high revs in first or second gear to do it.)

Mystikal
12-29-2002, 09:59 PM
I can only imagine the fun with AWD and such low grip levels. With my snows and RWD I have to take extra care to avoid coming ALL the way around. Especially with one rear wheel spinning. :cry:

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Mystikal
I can only imagine the fun with AWD and such low grip levels. With my snows and RWD I have to take extra care to avoid coming ALL the way around. Especially with one rear wheel spinning. :cry:

My seat vibrates in the corners. :p I wish I had one wheel spinning. :(

Mystikal
12-29-2002, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
My seat vibrates in the corners. :p I wish I had one wheel spinning. :(

Trust me, it's annoying as hell. I have literally had the inside wheel spinning for 100ft after a turn in 2nd. The car barely accelerates. This is in the cold, of course.

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Mystikal
Trust me, it's annoying as hell. I have literally had the inside wheel spinning for 100ft after a turn in 2nd. The car barely accelerates. This is in the cold, of course.

I'd just like to be able to turn ADB off. :p In sharp corners under power, the car feels and sounds like a vibrating bed. :mad:

nate
12-29-2002, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
In an M3 I'd be unnerved. In my car, countersteering is a rare treat. ;) (And it still takes a hard 90 degree turn at high revs in first or second gear to do it.)

:lmao:

Thankfully, I can still get a bit of power oversteer occasionally, but it does push too much.

With a bit more front bite, I the car would be quite a bit more balanced.

Speaking of 90, that is the fastest that I have had to correct for oversteer in my car. Kinda hairly :yikes:

nate
12-29-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I'd just like to be able to turn ADB off. :p In sharp corners under power, the car feels and sounds like a vibrating bed. :mad:

:lmao: :lmao:

Pull the fuse again :p

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by nate328Ci
:lmao: :lmao:

Pull the fuse again :p

Last time I did that, there were places on my tires where the tread depth was 50% of that of the rest of the tire. :p Too expensive.

nate
12-29-2002, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Last time I did that, there were places on my tires where the tread depth was 50% of that of the rest of the tire. :p Too expensive.

I think you might need to work on your threshold braking :p

Can't you feel a single wheel lock up? I know I can sense it when the ABS is working one wheel, but I haven't had to feel one wheel lock w/o ABS since the E28 533i. I never ruined any tires :p

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by nate328Ci
I think you might need to work on your threshold braking :p

Can't you feel a single wheel lock up? I know I can sense it when the ABS is working one wheel, but I haven't had to feel one wheel lock w/o ABS since the E28 533i. I never ruined any tires :p

I can feel it... But if I'm, say, going into the stopbox (especially when there's a guy standing at the end), I'm not going to let up on the brakes just because a rear wheel has locked up. :p

nate
12-29-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I can feel it... But if I'm, say, going into the stopbox (especially when there's a guy standing at the end), I'm not going to let up on the brakes just because a rear wheel has locked up. :p

How do you lock a rear wheel on a car with such heavy front bias?

Don't be such a puss, many cars are out there sans-ABS :flipoff:

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by nate328Ci
How do you lock a rear wheel on a car with such heavy front bias?

Don't be such a puss, many cars are out there sans-ABS :flipoff:

Lots and lots of brake dive. :P

nate
12-29-2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Lots and lots of brake dive. :P

Still, you shouldn't be locking a rear wheel...

And, yes, I have seen the braking pic in your sig. Not too great :eek:

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-29-2002, 11:01 PM
Out of curiosity, how heavy is the braking bias?

nate
12-29-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Out of curiosity, how heavy is the braking bias?

I really don't know the exact specs

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by nate328Ci
Don't be such a puss, many cars are out there sans-ABS :flipoff:

Nick, I think that you would do yourself a world of good by picking up a cheap, older car with handling "character" and no electronic nannies...well, so long as you didn't hurt yourself with it. :p Something like an E30 w/o ABS (preferably a 1984 318i), a mid 80's Mustang or F Body with a 302 or 305 (respectively) or an '85 Corvette (final year w/o ABS) would be great teaching tools. There are others...

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by Clyde@work
Nick, I think that you would do yourself a world of good by picking up a cheap, older car with handling "character" and no electronic nannies...well, so long as you didn't hurt yourself with it. :p Something like an E30 w/o ABS (preferably a 1984 318i), a mid 80's Mustang or F Body with a 302 or 305 (respectively) or an '85 Corvette (final year w/o ABS) would be great teaching tools. There are others...

Some day I'll get myself an old Miata. :p

Edit: I suspect, though, that most cars without ABS are substantially easier to prevent from locking than our current generation Bimmers.

pdz
12-30-2002, 06:45 AM
the ones that i hate in summer?

they're quite decent in the slush and snow.

'was pleasantly surprised. they are far better than the brig. RE92's on the rexy, which are horrible in any weather condition.

have played with S03's in the slush. those tires float and it was like being a cali-boy surfer in a car.

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Some day I'll get myself an old Miata. :p

Edit: I suspect, though, that most cars without ABS are substantially easier to prevent from locking than our current generation Bimmers.

A Miata just won't do. It's overengineered handling is too benign and close to perfect. Sure, it feels great and is quite capable, but the idea is for you to learn how to overcome tragic flaws. A Miata won't do that for you.

pdz
12-30-2002, 07:08 AM
tragic flaws and handling?

how about a z3 3.0 or an m roadster or m coupe?

:D

there IS beauty is the semi-trailing arm suspension carried over to the z3 platform. i just couldn't find it at the track.

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by pdz
tragic flaws and handling?

how about a z3 3.0 or an m roadster or m coupe?


That's almost exactly what I'm talking about...but they still have too many nannies. Anything more than a rev limiter is too much for what I'm talking about. And maybe a chime if the door is open with the key int he ignition...maybe. :D

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 07:22 AM
I guess you seem to think its a bad thing that the most unbalanced, twitchy and unaided car I've ever driven is an E36 325i. :p

nate
12-30-2002, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I guess you seem to think its a bad thing that the most unbalanced, twitchy and unaided car I've ever driven is an E36 325i. :p

An E36 is docile as a kitten compared to an E30 or, especially, a 2002...

Its at-the-limit behavior is just a bit less refined E46.

pdz
12-30-2002, 07:25 AM
...while apparently fragile (have only seen three cars that needed frame welding to fix the rear suspension pulling away, personally ha ha ha), is a pure revelation compared to the e30 rear suspension.

much more forgiving. kind of; the e36 is still so much more prone to that you-have-not-a-good-idea-where-the-limit-is and suddenly it snaps into oversteer. the e46 is the best handling 3 series ever, because it communicates, is so stable, and utterly forgiving of boneheaded input.

nate
12-30-2002, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by pdz

there IS beauty is the semi-trailing arm suspension carried over to the z3 platform. i just couldn't find it at the track.

:lmao: :lmao:

The old rear suspension was a ton of fun. Breathe on the throttle either direction and the tail is coming around. :D Not forgiving, not fast, or great handling, just good for tail-out fun :D

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I guess you seem to think its a bad thing that the most unbalanced, twitchy and unaided car I've ever driven is an E36 325i. :p

I don't think it...

pdz
12-30-2002, 07:38 AM
i dunno why you don't put yourself out of your misery and get a used WRX or something?

it's really easy to get it to slide, drift and snap around on OEM equipment.

i know you object to the interior and it is built like a semi-disposable car, but it has most of the parameters you seem to want.

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 08:01 AM
Having put a couple thousand miles on one, frankly I hate driving it.

The WRX is a blast at 10/10ths, but it's terrible around town. I don't like the clutch, or the gearbox, either. I'd love to swap steering racks, though.

I would MUCH rather get an old E36 325/328 than a WRX. As it is, I intend to hold on to the xiT for at least a year or two more. I'm happy enough with it that I'd much rather wait and see what's coming.

(And guys, I know the E36 is docile. :p Some day, I'll get myself a twitchy car to have fun with.)

pdz
12-30-2002, 08:14 AM
'tis true.

each car has very different clutch and shifter feel. i have grown to like the way the WRX shifts and the mechanism feels less fragile than the one on the E46s.

here's a thought: this is so obvious i know that you've already done it: but are you running less air pressure in the rears so you can provoke esaier oversteer?

it's far cheaper, if this works, then playing with swaybars.

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 08:32 AM
My experience is that you have to be running the rears at ridiculously low pressures in order to result in any twitchiness. :p I've generally been running at 40-42 all around.

pdz
12-30-2002, 08:57 AM
i had to play a lot with the pressures on the M coupe to figure out a balance where the snap oversteer wouldn't bite my ass.

on the 993, it is the same. the factory suggests a heavy bias toward pumping up the rears to keep understeer as the primary characteristic. needless to say, it took some doing, but is really neutral now. less scary than the M coupe, but neutral.

anyway, i applied this same thing to the xiT and WRX at the track and it is a far cheaper solution than sways. it's not ridiculously low, it's more akin to 38/34 or 40/35. i'm not bugging too much with the rexy since it's getting new sneakers soon.

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by pdz
anyway, i applied this same thing to the xiT and WRX at the track and it is a far cheaper solution than sways. it's not ridiculously low, it's more akin to 38/34 or 40/35. i'm not bugging too much with the rexy since it's getting new sneakers soon.

What tires on the xiT? For autocrossing with the RS-As, running the fronts about 5psi higher than the rears was pretty good at taming understeer (so long as I remembered to slow down before turning). Fronts were at 48-49 by the end of the season in a futile effort to tame the sidewall rolling. For regular street driving I've been ~40 front / 38 rear, but I don't drive hard enough to get anywhere near the edge.

pdz
12-30-2002, 09:40 AM
at the track.

don't autocross, so i guess my issues are not exactly the same as st. nick's.

track in the xiT is momentum and late-breaking whereas you're asking the car to do something it's not exactly amenable to in autocrossing.

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 09:43 AM
Autox is definitely not something the car is really suitable for. :p

I look forward to getting on the track.

nate
12-30-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by pdz
at the track.

don't autocross, so i guess my issues are not exactly the same as st. nick's.

track in the xiT is momentum and late-breaking whereas you're asking the car to do something it's not exactly amenable to in autocrossing.

Blackdawg? Is that you?

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Autox is definitely not something the car is really suitable for. :p

It took me about 5 or 6 events until I realized that the xiT is plenty adequate for local autocrossing in the DC region...or rather will be with suitable tires.

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Clyde@work
It took me about 5 or 6 events until I realized that the xiT is plenty adequate for local autocrossing in the DC region...or rather will be with suitable tires.

It's adequate, but it still isn't exactly suited.

·clyde·
12-30-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
It's adequate, but it still isn't exactly suited.

Where did I lose you? Where did I say that it was well suited for autocrossing? All these people trying to put words in my mouth today :rolleyes:




:angel:

Nick325xiT 5spd
12-30-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Clyde@work
Where did I lose you? Where did I say that it was well suited for autocrossing? All these people trying to put words in my mouth today :rolleyes:




:angel:

Asshole.


:angel:

Mystikal
12-30-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by nate328Ci
Blackdawg? Is that you?

It took him 2 months folks, but he got it!

Really, for someone who spends as much time as you on the board, I figured you would have picked up on that a long time ago.