Bad press for the "fest

[540Greg]

Look at the shirt the kid is wearing in the top pic of this article. http://www.news10.net/display_story.aspx?storyid=23371

It's a complete shame what happened. A second grade teacher dies do to poor judgment from these kids. The kids will be going away for a while.

Greg S.

[BMWALDO]

Rrr... Crap ya... Read that on bf.c

[roadwarrior687]

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r23/roadwarrior687/07114145031_folsom-crash2-185.jpg

:eeps:

[Test_Engineer]

I'm gonna guess there are not many of those shirts out there, so someone on here must know something. :eeps:

[wag-zhp]

I don't know who the drivers were, but here's a link to the article in the local paper:
http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/107841.html

Sorry, looks like the link is having a problem... Here's the text:

Regional digest: Police say woman killed in street racing incident
Published 12:00 am PST Sunday, January 14, 2007
Story appeared in METRO section, Page B2

Print | E-Mail | Comments (14)

FOLSOM -- A 53-year-old wife and mother on a weekend shopping trip was killed in a car wreck Saturday by a teenage driver who was street racing, Folsom police said.

The woman, driving a black Toyota Solara, was pulling out of the Folsom Premium Outlets and turning onto Iron Point Road when a red Dodge Stealth broadsided her about 2:45 p.m., said Officer Michelle Beattie, Folsom police spokeswoman.

As officers and a civilian performed cardiopulmonary resuscitation, an ambulance took the woman to Mercy San Juan Medical Center.

She was pronounced dead about 5 p.m., according to the Sacramento County Coroner's Office.

The coroner identified the victim as Susan McNew of Shingle Springs and said she was married with children.

Beattie said witnesses had seen the Dodge and a white BMW 5-series vehicle apparently racing and changing lanes erratically for some distance.

Witnesses said the cars had reached speeds of 60 to 80 mph in an area where the speed limit is 45 mph, and there was substantial weekend traffic, Beattie said.

"There were a lot of people out shopping and going to restaurants," she said.

The Dodge and the BMW each carried a 17-year-old male driver and passenger. The Dodge driver was taken to the hospital and treated for pain, then arrested. His passenger also was treated and released.

The BMW driver, who was unhurt, also was arrested. His passenger was sent home.

All the teens knew each other, Beattie said.

"They're all 17," she said. "They're all boys. They're all friends. A woman shopping and heading home is caught in the middle of their game and killed. It's tragic."

Both drivers will be charged with vehicular manslaughter and reckless driving, Beattie said. Their names were not released because they are minors.

No drugs or alcohol were involved in the collision, she said.

-- Hudson Sangree



And here's a link to the comments on the article:
http://www.sacbee.com/dyn/comments/standard/comments_separate.html?uri=http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/107841.html&o=d&ud=u&avatar=n&tie_to=107841

I'm thinking loss of vehicles and jail time would be in order for the drivers.

[BMWE30freak]

that sucks. I've done stupid things in my car before but nothing that stupid.

[shragon]

:thumbdwn: :thumbdwn: :thumbdwn: :thumbdwn:

RIP Susan McNew

[Paul Christian]

YES!!!RIP Susan Mcnew,and the her familys lost as well...........

[dboy11]

This is all to comon problem with young kids that think they can drive.....and have these cars that sport some serious power.

Really to bad for the family of the teacher!

[wwb4]

My prayers and condolences go out to Susan McNew's family and loved ones.

[mark_m5]

My condolences to Susan McNew's family too.

Interesting development from the news link: "Under a new state law that went into effect January 1, a driver found responsible for another person's death during an illegal street race faces a prison term of up to 10 years. The passengers in the two vehicles could also face charges under the new law if it is determined they played a role in encouraging the race."

That new law should be publicized in order to help in it's deterrent effect. If these guys had known about it, would they have raced?

While I don't think there should be a law preventing kids from having a powerful car, I think parents should do everything they can to prevent kids from acquiring cars with a power to weight ratio of more than 1hp/20lbs in their first several years of driving; and parents need to TALK to their kids about the risks.

[Brad323i]

Folsom is the next town over from me. I about pissed myself when I saw that. They should be locked up for life.

One of the officer's that arrived on scene was a female and her child was tought by the lady that got killed. Talk about tough to see.

[BMWE30freak]

I agree with the power to weight ratio. For the first year I had my licence I drove a Prius :thumbup:

Now I've got my E30 which I made pretty darn fast, but if I had that when I first started I have a feeling that it would be destroyed by now. Also, some kids are ALOT more responsible then others. I'm not saying that I'm REALLY responsible, but I got my pilots licence before I even drove a car for the first time :D

The main point is, kids need to learn to be more responsible these days. THey have WAY more freedom then they ever used to and much more responsibility.

[94is]

My condolences to Susan McNew's family too.

Interesting development from the news link: "Under a new state law that went into effect January 1, a driver found responsible for another person's death during an illegal street race faces a prison term of up to 10 years. The passengers in the two vehicles could also face charges under the new law if it is determined they played a role in encouraging the race."

That new law should be publicized in order to help in it's deterrent effect. If these guys had known about it, would they have raced?

While I don't think there should be a law preventing kids from having a powerful car, I think parents should do everything they can to prevent kids from acquiring cars with a power to weight ratio of more than 1hp/20lbs in their first several years of driving; and parents need to TALK to their kids about the risks.
I don't understand why a passenger should have to accept any liability for that. :dunno:

[BMWE30freak]

Well, they could have provoked the race. Trust me, when I have other kids in my car I have a tendancy to be more stupid behind the wheel :(

[94is]

Well, they could have provoked the race. Trust me, when I have other kids in my car I have a tendancy to be more stupid behind the wheel :(
Then thats your fault, not your friends. Unless someone holds you at gunpoint, you have complete control over what you do.

[Brad323i]

Then thats your fault, not your friends. Unless someone holds you at gunpoint, you have complete control over what you do.

It's called guilt by association and/or by accessory. Street racing is a crime.

[94is]

It's called guilt by association and/or by accessory. Street racing is a crime.
I agree that it is a crime, but I find it unfair that a passenger who has absolutely nothing to do with what's happening should be charged.

[Cliff]

The passengers in the two vehicles could also face charges under the new law if it is determined they played a role in encouraging the race."

I agree that it is a crime, but I find it unfair that a passenger who has absolutely nothing to do with what's happening should be charged.

So would most people, which probably why the law was written to limit it to passengers who "played a role in encouraging the race."

[Brad323i]

I agree that it is a crime, but I find it unfair that a passenger who has absolutely nothing to do with what's happening should be charged.

A lot of the law is written in such that the courts interpret and rule based on the individual cases and based on case law, Stare Decisis (previous court rulings). Then you factor a jury into the equation and you never know what to expect.

In law enforcement we use the term "charge up and charge all," meaning file any charge legally possible and let the DA (district attorney) decide what they want to pursue for court prosecution. This way the lessor included charges can be dropped while the heavier charges remain.

Remember: Police done press charges, they file them to the DA's office only. If the DA agrees, he/she will pursue the filings and charges will be brought.

[mark_m5]

94is, Cliff:
I'm not a proponent of that law, just reporting what I found in the news report. My personal opinion is that kids (including me when I was young and foolish) will do stupid stuff at the slightest provocation. I had a supercharged Chevy Camaro Z/28 and loved to hear the sound of the engine roaring at redline through a tunnel or residential neighborhood, backwards on the sidewalk, whatever.:yikes: OK, maybe not backwards on the sidewalk, but you get my point. However, I drove like a little old man when my mom was in the car.:angel:

Years of driving Japanese imports after that taught me patience.:snooze: Now, I'm having more fun, but trying to stay mellow.

Passengers have an effect on how you drive. If you're running on Testosterone or have something to prove to someone who is, then "it's on." :stickpoke Sadly, passengers play a role. I think the government is trying to make passengers take some responsibility if they are instigating trouble. It's like "Conspiracy" law. You don't have to be the "trigger man" to go be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.:bang:

So, as they say, it is what it is. C'est la vie. If you don't like it, start a ballot initiative. I'd start one, but I'm too apathetic.:) ...at least I vote...

[Cliff]

Cliff:
I'm not a proponent of that law, just reporting what I found in the news report.

I know. I was just quoting you quoting the law.

[JRoss22]

Look at the shirt the kid is wearing in the top pic of this article. http://www.news10.net/display_story.aspx?storyid=23371

It's a complete shame what happened. A second grade teacher dies do to poor judgment from these kids. The kids will be going away for a while.

Greg S.

The Drivers are both on house arrest right now. I have met the driver of the stealth. He is best friends with a guy at my work. Its a shame what happened but everyone makes mistakes and has to live with the consequences for the rest of there lives. I wouldn't be surprised if he has nightmares from the crash.

[Vroomer]

"Spare the rod, spoil the child."

May their parents be charged as well.

[1995_e36M3Blue]

My condolences to Susan McNew's family.


While I don't think there should be a law preventing kids from having a powerful car, I think parents should do everything they can to prevent kids from acquiring cars with a power to weight ratio of more than 1hp/20lbs in their first several years of driving

I do agree with you on the fact that Parents should explain these risks, I do not however agree on your opinion on whether or not parents should provide kids with powerful cars. It is my thought that by putting a teenager in a powerful car which they will in most cases cherish, that the individual will feel obligated to preserve this vehicle and not endanger themselve or the vehicle. I do belive that there is a limit to what a new/young driver should have access to as far as power though.

[mark_m5]

I do agree with you on the fact that Parents should explain these risks, I do not however agree on your opinion on whether or not parents should provide kids with powerful cars. It is my thought that by putting a teenager in a powerful car which they will in most cases cherish, that the individual will feel obligated to preserve this vehicle and not endanger themselve or the vehicle. I do belive that there is a limit to what a new/young driver should have access to as far as power though.

I like your tag line!

I think that some people care about their stuff, and some people don't - and there's no connection between caring and being careful. I take good care of my stuff, and always have. My brother used to be a lot less caring about his stuff. We didn't get cars as gifts - we earned our cars, but we both got stupid with power. I ended up crashing more (though more than half weren't technically my fault).

If you're a kid, of course you'll want no limits on power. If you're a parent, and considering giving a gift car to a kid, I'd advise that:

1. The kid won't appreciate a car he doesn't earn as much as a car that he earned. Even if he earned it, if it's powerful, the temptation to drive badly may be overwhelming. If he doesn't care about the car, he's got nothing to lose. I call this the "Daddy will fix it" mentality.

2. The more powerful the car, the quicker it gets the driver in trouble. A seasoned driver may know his limitations but an unseasoned driver doesn't. He'll most likely discover them the hard way. I call this the "Son, you're ego's writing checks your body can't cash" mentality.

Solution: Make sure the kid survives by learning skills on a 318i instead of an M3.

[MrTom]

I really hate to say it, but this is exactly why i was not allowed to get my drivers license until i turned 18.

My parents may have been on to something there...

[Buyse13]

Time out. These kids really screwed up yes. The took a great womans life which I think is terrible but looking them up does nothing to help them. Yea it will keep them off the street but I highly doubt they will pick up racing again. Not to long ago a guy at my school racing his super modded turbo eclipse at lunch, and i was several car lengths behind doing a little over the speed, but I watched his car get wrapped around a telephone poll doing well over 100mph. I am scared to death of racing now.

These boys learned a big lesson they should of learned in drivers ed from this. This is truly a heart breaking story but we have to be real. I read some of those comments from the article and I was disgusted with how these people are thinking. things like:

"No substitute for maximum punishment of these murderers. Try the 17-year old animals as adults."

"These punks need to lose driving priveleges for the rest of their lives! Nothing less. Lock them up and when released, no driving ever again." -This same woman then began to blame the parents of the kids and society as a whole.

"Did you see the mother of the teenager that was driving the Dodge Stealth. Oh not my kid,,,Please lady get a clue. Your kid was racing in his 40K sports car you bought him! You might as well give him a case of beer and the keys. Why in the world would a parent give their kid that kind of car to drive. I am sure this mother did not even know where her kid was. Well I hope you like seeing your kid through glass or bars for the next several years. Try them as adults and lock them up!"

One woman who is a teacher of people my age, 17-18 said this:
"But I also have a problem with putting these young men in prison for a long time, say more than 10-15 years. They're 17 years old, they're immature, and they're given powerful machines. They didn't willfully kill the teacher; they acted negligently. I don't believe for a second that other young people are going to slow down if these four guys go to prison for a long time b/c they will think it won't happen to them. They don't think anything bad will ever happen to them. Education of teens & parents is key to this problem!"

which i can totally agree with. Letting them sit in jail does nothing. Prision is a correctional facility. Not a sit and rot to death room. This is what truely disgusted me next:
"micamMFEM...you are coming across as quite the enabler and apologist. You are part of the problem if you are supposedly "teaching" these 15 - 18 year olds and making excuses for them. Again, my heart goes out to the victim's family, which probably has more morals and a truer scope on reality than you can even imagine having."

Hundreds of people speed extremely fast every day. I would say about 75% of the members in the community have done this "crime" at least once in their life if not more. Fast speed can and at times does equal a fatality. But that doesn't mean go to jail for life like all these people wish would happen.

In my honest opinion as a peer to these boys what would be a suiting punishment for them is one year in prison and to spend a day in jail on the day of the teacher's every birthday, wedding anniversary, children's birthdays, and husband's birthday until he is 21. He should have to watch media clips of the scene, reading all publications about the accident, and write to the family of his remorse on each specialty day he spends in jail. He should also have to complete a driver safety course annually.

Things like this just do not fade away and they do not need huge amounts of time in a jail cell. These images will follow him forever. I feel terrible for the family lose, but I also feel bad for the teens involved because they will be forever haunted by this one race and their punishments will be too harsh when they are determined.

[mark_m5]

The consequences you propose are interesting, but instead of going to jail for a day every year, maybe a more productive consequence would be to do something for the victim's family every year.

I think a smaller percentage of people actually race than your estimate. Granted, maybe 80***37; of people drive faster than the speed limit, but a much smaller percentage try to go crazy fast (20-30 mph over the speed limit).

Either way, I agree that education and prevention are the best approach. Punishment is something that can be totally avoided if somebody took the right step to prevent the offense from occurring in the first place.

[Vroomer]

as a peer to these boys

Revisit this thread after you get married and have a kid or two. Let me know what you think then.

[wag-zhp]

Time out. These kids really screwed up yes. The took a great womans life which I think is terrible but looking them up does nothing to help them. Yea it will keep them off the street but I highly doubt they will pick up racing again. Not to long ago a guy at my school racing his super modded turbo eclipse at lunch, and i was several car lengths behind doing a little over the speed, but I watched his car get wrapped around a telephone poll doing well over 100mph. I am scared to death of racing now.

These boys learned a big lesson they should of learned in drivers ed from this. This is truly a heart breaking story but we have to be real. I read some of those comments from the article and I was disgusted with how these people are thinking. things like:

"No substitute for maximum punishment of these murderers. Try the 17-year old animals as adults."

"These punks need to lose driving priveleges for the rest of their lives! Nothing less. Lock them up and when released, no driving ever again." -This same woman then began to blame the parents of the kids and society as a whole.

"Did you see the mother of the teenager that was driving the Dodge Stealth. Oh not my kid,,,Please lady get a clue. Your kid was racing in his 40K sports car you bought him! You might as well give him a case of beer and the keys. Why in the world would a parent give their kid that kind of car to drive. I am sure this mother did not even know where her kid was. Well I hope you like seeing your kid through glass or bars for the next several years. Try them as adults and lock them up!"

One woman who is a teacher of people my age, 17-18 said this:
"But I also have a problem with putting these young men in prison for a long time, say more than 10-15 years. They're 17 years old, they're immature, and they're given powerful machines. They didn't willfully kill the teacher; they acted negligently. I don't believe for a second that other young people are going to slow down if these four guys go to prison for a long time b/c they will think it won't happen to them. They don't think anything bad will ever happen to them. Education of teens & parents is key to this problem!"

which i can totally agree with. Letting them sit in jail does nothing. Prision is a correctional facility. Not a sit and rot to death room. This is what truely disgusted me next:
"micamMFEM...you are coming across as quite the enabler and apologist. You are part of the problem if you are supposedly "teaching" these 15 - 18 year olds and making excuses for them. Again, my heart goes out to the victim's family, which probably has more morals and a truer scope on reality than you can even imagine having."

Hundreds of people speed extremely fast every day. I would say about 75% of the members in the community have done this "crime" at least once in their life if not more. Fast speed can and at times does equal a fatality. But that doesn't mean go to jail for life like all these people wish would happen.

In my honest opinion as a peer to these boys what would be a suiting punishment for them is one year in prison and to spend a day in jail on the day of the teacher's every birthday, wedding anniversary, children's birthdays, and husband's birthday until he is 21. He should have to watch media clips of the scene, reading all publications about the accident, and write to the family of his remorse on each specialty day he spends in jail. He should also have to complete a driver safety course annually.

Things like this just do not fade away and they do not need huge amounts of time in a jail cell. These images will follow him forever. I feel terrible for the family lose, but I also feel bad for the teens involved because they will be forever haunted by this one race and their punishments will be too harsh when they are determined.

The consequences you propose are interesting, but instead of going to jail for a day every year, maybe a more productive consequence would be to do something for the victim's family every year.

I think a smaller percentage of people actually race than your estimate. Granted, maybe 80% of people drive faster than the speed limit, but a much smaller percentage try to go crazy fast (20-30 mph over the speed limit).

Either way, I agree that education and prevention are the best approach. Punishment is something that can be totally avoided if somebody took the right step to prevent the offense from occurring in the first place.

Excellent posts. Buyse13, I like your perspective. mark_m5, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[Buyse13]

Revisit this thread after you get married and have a kid or two. Let me know what you think then.

I will still think as I do now. When I am married these kids will still be my peers, when I have a kid or two they will still be my peers. I think you are not understanding this honestly. These boys accidentally killed her. It was not set up for this to happen. I have done plenty of stupid stuff and something goes wrong and someone gets hurt. People dont plan for things to go wrong. They were not thinking. Yes they should be punished. They already know not to do this again, but they still have to serve time just for the peace of mind of the family that is now without a loved one. Serving years and years in prison will not correct the wrong decision they have made and so rather than waste a good portion of these teens life let them try to do something with it. Let them try to mature from this as i am sure they already have.

Instead of you telling me to look back in a few years, why don't you try to think back when you were a senior in high school and the thing you did. Would you think the way you do now? I highly doubt you would.

and for your comment of:

"Spare the rod, spoil the child.
May their parents be charged as well."

Their parents are already being punished with the fact that they child is associated or committed a murder. Locking them up will do nothing. They are parents, they are supposed to trust their kids and encourage responsibility and reward actions that show maturity. I think you have it all wrong personally and it is people like you on the jury of these kids trial that will cause them to be charged with a federal crime that will hold them back for the rest of their lives.

[Vroomer]

I will still think as I do now. When I am married these kids will still be my peers, when I have a kid or two they will still be my peers. I think you are not understanding this honestly. These boys accidentally killed her. It was not set up for this to happen. I have done plenty of stupid stuff and something goes wrong and someone gets hurt. People dont plan for things to go wrong. They were not thinking. Yes they should be punished. They already know not to do this again, but they still have to serve time just for the peace of mind of the family that is now without a loved one. Serving years and years in prison will not correct the wrong decision they have made and so rather than waste a good portion of these teens life let them try to do something with it. Let them try to mature from this as i am sure they already have.

Maturity and growing up at what price? The life of another? Then slap them on the wrist? That's too high a price in my book.

Instead of you telling me to look back in a few years, why don't you try to think back when you were a senior in high school and the thing you did. Would you think the way you do now? I highly doubt you would.

:tsk:

Does someone else want to tell him whence I came or should I? If I had not the focus nor the mindset nor the drive and desires I had all through high school, that I have maintained up until now, I would not be where I am now. Don't let the ages of my cars mislead you as to how old I am. Drop me a pm if you want to know my personal high school up to now history.


and for your comment of:

"Spare the rod, spoil the child.
May their parents be charged as well."

Their parents are already being punished with the fact that they child is associated or committed a murder. Locking them up will do nothing. They are parents, they are supposed to trust their kids and encourage responsibility and reward actions that show maturity.

Who gave them their weapons of mass destruction? Their parents.

The two street racers suffered from a "lack of respect." Lack of respect for the gifts they were given and the blessings they received. My generation is plagued with the same problem and a lot are growing out of it the hard way. Saying "May I take your order, please" is a real wake up call for a lot of people. It pains me to see that someone had to die so that two kids could grow up.

This is one of my favorite articles ever published. I invite all to check it out: What it takes to be great (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm). The answer might surprise you. :thumbup: Too bad some people live in and for the moment. :thumbdwn:

I think you have it all wrong personally and it is people like you on the jury of these kids trial that will cause them to be charged with a federal crime that will hold them back for the rest of their lives.

The DA sets the level of the charge based on the evidence, not the jury. The jury agrees or disagrees with the DA. See Brad's post above.



My life experiences are different than yours. They have shaped my world view more so than any book, lecture, Power Point slide show, or academic environment ever has and ever will. May you learn life's lessons from the mistakes of others. May you emulate the right choices of others.

[BMWDogberto999]

: popcorn:

:asshole: Vroomer

I agree with Buyse13, it'd be like going to jail for saying a racial word when you're five, and don't know what it means. Don't ruin the teen's lives because they made one mistake, tell them what they did wrong, make them pay for it (other then by serving life) and create solutions so it doesn't happen again.

[Buyse13]

Maturity and growing up at what price? The life of another? Then slap them on the wrist? That's too high a price in my book.

Yes i agree with you, the death of a person is always going to be too high of a price, but now that one life is gone why throw away two more because of them. They have already screwed their life up permanently. They are to young to not have a second chance and that is one thing this country stands for, second chances. Punish them yes! but I dont consider that a slap on the wrist. There is a major flaw with punishing teens these days. A Denton, Texas student pushes a teacher aide and is now sitting in jail for four years. She didn't even get the option of probation and had no other offenses of assault. Does that seem fair to you?

They should have a just punishment to equal the crime but an example cannot be made of these teens. Teens don't even pay attention anymore to these "examples" that are trying to be made. their punishment should be specifically tailored to this tragedy and rather than be an "example" it should be a testament to not just teens but everyone else who finds excessive speed fun.

ho gave them their weapons of mass destruction? Their parents.

The two street racers suffered from a "lack of respect." Lack of respect for the gifts they were given and the blessings they received.

Now you don't make sense. Yes their parents did give them the cars, but as you say yourself it was their choice to have this lack of respect. Not the parents. The parents have no involvement why should they be to blame. If you are wanting to see the parents also go down for this then so should BMW and Dodge for making these cars. So should the other manufacturers that produced any sort of after market performance parts for allowing these teens to have more power. It is crazy for the parents to be charged with anything.

The only way it would seem fit is if the kids announced to their parents before hand saying "Hey im going street racing see you guys tomorrow" Which would never of happened.

[airjack]

: popcorn:

:asshole: Vroomer

I agree with Buyse13, it'd be like going to jail for saying a racial word when you're five, and don't know what it means. Don't ruin the teen's lives because they made one mistake, tell them what they did wrong, make them pay for it (other then by serving life) and create solutions so it doesn't happen again.

Umm, You don't get life for a conviction of vehicular homicide. If these kids are charged as adults and convicted, the sentencing range is about 3 to 8 years max. Even if they get the top end of the sentence range they can be released after about 4 to 5 years. with good behaviour, ect..

I'm sorry, but I dont buy the comparison of a five year olds utterance of a word that they have no idea of its meaning, with two young adults racing a car up a busy street, with passengers in their cars. I know what your trying to say, but I just don't buy it.

I don't know whats right or whats fair, but I do know my sympathies are with the victims husband and children who no longer have a wife and a mother, and not whether or not a lawful punishment is correct in the eyes of lay people.

[BMWDogberto999]

I was making a reference as to how you were all over reacting at how the kids should be linched, and comparing their immaturity to a five year old making a stupid mistake to a 17~ year-old making a different, more serious, mistake.

Can't we all just have an e-hug?

[Vroomer]

The only way it would seem fit is if the kids announced to their parents before hand saying "Hey im going street racing see you guys tomorrow" Which would never of happened.

I'm not buying it. Agreeing to disagree. You can have the last word.

[Brad323i]

Regardless of how anyone acted as a kid, there's no excess today how kids act on the road. Period.

It wasn't tolerated then and it never will be. The ONLY difference today is the lack of parenting and the frequency of these tragedies happening because of this culture.

If you have a license to operate a motor vehicle and you violate the law, your held to the same standards as an adult. Regardless of being ages 16 or 17.

[mark_m5]

The ONLY difference today is the lack of parenting and the frequency of these tragedies happening because of this culture.


+1

BMWDogberto999: Sorry, but they knew what they were doing. They were taking a huge risk, they knew it, were getting a thrill out of it, and screwed up.

Vroomer: I wish more people displayed the talent for grammar and eloquence exhibited in your posts.:bow: I agree with your points too. I'd be curious to see which schools were responsible for your higher education.

Buyse13: I realize that the prospect of facing a jury over charges like this is scary, especially when you see apparently irrational behavior in the legal system. I totally understand that. I've decided the best approach is to keep as far away from a courtroom experience as possible. I did stupid stuff as a kid, but never as stupid as what those kids did. Deserted streets in the middle of the night with no traffic seemed safe... :eeps:

[Mike_Check]

+1

BMWDogberto999: Sorry, but they knew what they were doing. They were taking a huge risk, they knew it, were getting a thrill out of it, and screwed up.

Vroomer: I wish more people displayed the talent for grammar and eloquence exhibited in your posts.:bow: I agree with your points too. I'd be curious to see which schools were responsible for your higher education.

Buyse13: I realize that the prospect of facing a jury over charges like this is scary, especially when you see apparently irrational behavior in the legal system. I totally understand that. I've decided the best approach is to keep as far away from a courtroom experience as possible. I did stupid stuff as a kid, but never as stupid as what those kids did. Deserted streets in the middle of the night with no traffic seemed safe... :eeps:
Charge the parents with vehicular homicide, charge the kids with reckless operation class 3, take the licenses away for life, and teach the people who can learn from a lesson, a lesson.

Anybody that fails to see the severity...what if it was you? And your kids, or mom, or grandma...and you get t-boned by some fukkup that thinks his Stealth is sweet. All over that kids parents allowing him to drive that kind of car, and hi thinking he will impress somebody.

All he did was impress his hood into that poor woman's head.

Defend his ass now.

[mark_m5]

Charge the parents with vehicular homicide,


Why? for doing nothing to prevent it? You did nothing either. Should we charge you? That's just stupid.


charge the kids with reckless operation class 3, take the licenses away for life, and teach the people who can learn from a lesson, a lesson.


They killed someone, which means the driver ALONE should be charged with vehicular homicide. The other kids involved should get the "reckless operation class 3" or whatever, and lose their license for a few years.


Anybody that fails to see the severity...what if it was you? And your kids, or mom, or grandma...


That's life. It usually ends in death. For 50,000 people a year, it ends in death having to do with a car. The woman who got hit could have potentially avoided her fate by being more alert. If I saw a family member killed by a jerk kid, I'd probably be locked up for assault or murder myself, because I'd have a little street justice...
:behead:


...parents allowing him to drive that kind of car...

...has nothing to do with it. Kids die in Toyota Corollas. Car type has no bearing...

... and [] thinking he will impress somebody.

That's the point, 100***37;. The driver's mindset, which makes him guilty and mostly responsible.


Defend his ass now.

Nobody's defending the driver, but you're attacking the parents, the other kids, and everybody else too.

I think a lot of people have less than 100% faith in the justice system and society to handle this type of behavior in a way that we feel is appropriate.

You and I disagree on what is appropriate. I'd like to see these events prevented through education. You want to punish somebody, hoping that severe enough punishments will scare kids into avoiding racing. The problem is, they're doing it deliberately because it's scary. Scaring them more won't do anything. It just adds to the thrill.

Go ahead, flame suit ready.:flame:

[Mike_Check]

Why? for doing nothing to prevent it? You did nothing either. Should we charge you? That's just stupid.



They killed someone, which means the driver ALONE should be charged with vehicular homicide. The other kids involved should get the "reckless operation class 3" or whatever, and lose their license for a few years.



That's life. It usually ends in death. For 50,000 people a year, it ends in death having to do with a car. The woman who got hit could have potentially avoided her fate by being more alert. If I saw a family member killed by a jerk kid, I'd probably be locked up for assault or murder myself, because I'd have a little street justice...
:behead:


...has nothing to do with it. Kids die in Toyota Corollas. Car type has no bearing...

That's the point, 100***37;. The driver's mindset, which makes him guilty and mostly responsible.



Nobody's defending the driver, but you're attacking the parents, the other kids, and everybody else too.

I think a lot of people have less than 100***37; faith in the justice system and society to handle this type of behavior in a way that we feel is appropriate.

You and I disagree on what is appropriate. I'd like to see these events prevented through education. You want to punish somebody, hoping that severe enough punishments will scare kids into avoiding racing. The problem is, they're doing it deliberately because it's scary. Scaring them more won't do anything. It just adds to the thrill.

Go ahead, flame suit ready.:flame:
The kid was racing because he had a Stealth R/T. Twin turbo 3.0 V-6 340 horse. Would you let your 16-17 year old drive that? I think that any sane parent that gave a sh!t wouldnt. The kids in the car have learned their lesson I think...they arent included, they should be terrified to drive for life. 50,000 people die because of an accident. This wasnt an accident. It was a preventable crime. I am not attacking the parents any more than they deserve. Do you really think that the dead woman has any fault whatsoever? You say she does..."she should have been more alert." WTF is the matter with you? She was alert enough to know she was going to die probably when she saw the bumper of that Stealth barreling at her. You cant judge distance with any accuracy when the idiots are going 70 in a 35mph zone! The parents are as responsible as the kid is. If you cant judge you childs maturity level enough to know that he will race a 350 horsepower car, then you should have a chat with child services.

This wasnt the first time he raced either. Gimme a break man...blame the murdered victim... thats cheap.

[pridetwo]

:thumbdwn: street racing for the lose:thumbdwn: its terrible that such a tragedy happens. and it's kids like these that have us contemplating raising the driving age.:tsk: I just hope 'fest doesn't get implicated in this. that would suck.

[Buyse13]

I think that any sane parent that gave a sh!t wouldnt.

So just because a parent buys their child a performance car means they don't give a sh!t? So how does that make my parents look when they hand me the keys to my 3 series?

This wasnt an accident.It was a preventable crime.
If this wasn't an accident what was it? A conspiracy against a second grade teacher No matter how you twist it, it was still an accident. please, step down. :soapbox:

I am not attacking the parents any more than they deserve. Do you really think that the dead woman has any fault whatsoever?

You have no reason to attack the parents. They had no part in this other than two years ago when they cars were bought for the kids. These parents are as shocked as we are if not more because every day they see the greatness in these kids, the achievements and the milestones in their lifes. So far of these guys all we have seen is the crime they committed. And you are right about judging distance, but she sure could of seen that these boys were moving very quickly if she ever bothered to give it more than just a glance when pulling out of Applebee's at two am in the morning. It almost could seem like both parties involved in the wreck were being negligent with their driving, but we do not know what really happened inside of the teachers car except that it got hit hard resulting in her tragic death.


The parents are as responsible as the kid is. If you cant judge you childs maturity level enough to know that he will race a 350 horsepower car, then you should have a chat with child services.

Are you serious? Parents do not give a gift that they feel a child is going to abuse. Parents don't do something for a child that they feel uncomfortable about. Sure they might of been a little uneasy, but so is every parent when their child turns sixteen and gets their drivers license because it opens up a whole new box of risks.


I'd like to see these events prevented through education. You want to punish somebody, hoping that severe enough punishments will scare kids into avoiding racing. The problem is, they're doing it deliberately because it's scary. Scaring them more won't do anything. It just adds to the thrill.


I completely agree with you on that mark_m5. Not only are people my age doing this as a thrill and taking a huge risk, but my generation and those that will precede me have been taught that with great risk comes a great reward even if their really is no actual reward, we have been drilled in our mindset that their will be a majestic reward. Trying to make an example of this will do nothing but shove these kids into jail while they suffer more than they should. Our justice system tries to hard to show "examples". Just look at the wonderful "example" of being caught with illicit drugs. Seems like it is on the rise and their "example" is not really working to well other than slapping huge punishments on people that were within a mile of a drug bust and under the age of 18 that are still in high school so they must be involved. The justice system seems to enjoy picking at and locking away kids of my generation and it is very obvious here in this thread of elders throwing punches and over powering them with rhetoric and the like only because of a greater amount of experience and a major difference in education.


Time for the Baby Boomers to go bust.

[Buyse13]

it's kids like these that have us contemplating raising the driving age.

Why should this even be a contemplation? Its kids like these that make up about 0.01***37; of the driving population of 16-18. The only reason why you notice them is because of their recklessness so they seem abundant when yet you have no idea that the car in the lane next to you is being driven by a 17 year old girl.

I just hope 'fest doesn't get implicated in this. that would suck.

And no the fest has nothing to do with this other than a t-shirt. They are not even apart of the equation.

[Vroomer]

mark_m5 and Brad323i, Private Messages sent. Enjoy.

[E30 325IS]

All I have to say is... Know the facts before you judge people. What kinda people actually believe the media???

Everything is an acquisition right now. There is no proof as of this point

[Chief915]

Any death on the street is a tragedy! What bothers me is that all the discussion here is based on speculation of what some say happened.

Let me share this.....

I'll start by saying that when one of the locals that drive that street regularly was interviewed by a local fish wrap, said that there was plenty of un-abstructed view and had the driver of the car that was hit looked before she pulled out, she would not have pulled out.
When the reporter than asked the PD for their response to that statment, the officer said:
"If a person ran a red light and was struct by a drunk driver, is it the fault of the driver that had been drinking?"

The reason I'm responding to this forum is because we all have something in common. Our love for BMW,s and should be able to be objective for that reason.

His '92 325I BMW was purchased with money he earned working for 2 years, it was not a gift. Like most of us, he has spent countless hours repairing and cleaning his car, and is as proud of that car as you or I.

We have all made mistakes in our lives, some more serious than others. As far as the charges go, just because cars were going fast, does not mean that they were racing.
I don't know where someone got the idea that the stealth had 340 hp! The stealth was a "91 and had a whopping 168 hp, just under the massive 180 hp of lthe 325I.

And how about racing among all the traffic in front of the OUTLETS, not real likely. Oh yea, the time of the accident was 2:45PM. Not the ideal time for a race.

It just really bothers me when so many that don't know really know what happened want to blame the kid, parents, family dog, even bimmerfest. After all, thats where the desire to become a BMW owner originated.

See you at bimmerfest '07 where I'll buy another shirt. (I hope that no one takes a picture of me wearing it when I spank my kid!)

[mark_m5]

I agree with everything you said, Chief. Just one question:

What do you mean by "was interviewed by a local fish wrap"?
:dunno:
:eeps:

[Kurt Martin]

I agree with everything you said, Chief. Just one question:

What do you mean by "was interviewed by a local fish wrap"?
:dunno:
:eeps:

Sounds like he is referring to the local newspaper. It alludes to the practice of wrapping fish in newpaper. Usually meant as an insult.

[mark_m5]

Sounds like he is referring to the local newspaper. It alludes to the practice of wrapping fish in newpaper. Usually meant as an insult.

That's gross. Newsprint tastes nasty. Don't ask me how I know... :eeps:

I thought he meant something else, like a female reporter in a tight skirt... :angel:

[Brad323i]

Sounds like he is referring to the local newspaper. It alludes to the practice of wrapping fish in newpaper. Usually meant as an insult.

Bingo. A newspaper of poor reputation.

[Keith]

Bingo. A newspaper of poor reputation.


Surprise surprise!!!! :rolleyes: :tsk:

[Cliff]

I'll start by saying that when one of the locals that drive that street regularly was interviewed by a local fish wrap, said that there was plenty of un-abstructed view and had the driver of the car that was hit looked before she pulled out, she would not have pulled out.

That sounds an awful lot to me like blaming the victim. Too bad she didn't survive the crash to defend herself...

[E30 325IS]

That sounds an awful lot to me like blaming the victim. Too bad she didn't survive the crash to defend herself...



What ur not thinking about is that there is more than one victim here. Yes, she lost her life in a tragic accident, she has alot of prayers and thoughts with her and her family.
What if these kids are being punished for something that is not their fault. Again, they are suspected of racing, were not proved to be racing.
If they are innocent of the crime they are being charged with, what kind of impact has the media and all the people that have already judged them have on their lives... no one deserves that. Is it ok that there are people that are trying to stick up for them? Can it be that there is no fault? Or is it that if it's not one person's fault it has to be the other's? Someone has to be to blame right? WRONG !!
Innocent until proven guilty...

[Cliff]

What ur not thinking about is that there is more than one victim here. Yes, she lost her life in a tragic accident, she has alot of prayers and thoughts with her and her family.
What if these kids are being punished for something that is not their fault. Again, they are suspected of racing, were not proved to be racing.
If they are innocent of the crime they are being charged with, what kind of impact has the media and all the people that have already judged them have on their lives... no one deserves that. Is it ok that there are people that are trying to stick up for them? Can it be that there is no fault? Or is it that if it's not one person's fault it has to be the other's? Someone has to be to blame right? WRONG !!
Innocent until proven guilty...

The only facts available are those in the article linked to in the original post. The Sacbee article seems to have been archived, although I recall it being in general agreement with the first article. The articles are likely quoting police sources for facts about the crash. I have no reason to doubt them.

If you'd like to post links to realiable sources of factual evidence that contradicts the news reports (i.e.: other news sources, police reports, court documents, etc.), then go for it. Otherwise, your opinion is noted and is no more valid than my own.

[E30 325IS]

All I'm tryin to say is there is not factual evedence or proof of the situation available to the public or media. If all you have to go by is a news reports or what the media has to say think about how reliable your source is before you judge someone.

[Brad323i]

Surprise surprise!!!! :rolleyes: :tsk:

Law agencies for the most part hate the media. BUT on the other hand, it serves as a checks and balances for our government (federal) making things public.

All I'm tryin to say is there is not factual evedence or proof of the situation available to the public or media. If all you have to go by is a news reports or what the media has to say think about how reliable your source is before you judge someone.

By the end of most articles, the writers opinion is usually tossed around in it. The Sac Bee is notorious for ripping the Sacramento Sheriffs Dpt. Unless there are clear facts and for sure direct quotes from an interview, never call it accurate. Even with interviews, reporters tend to slant the responses from my experience.

P.S. This thread awakens every other week! :D

[mark_m5]

Law agencies for the most part hate the media. BUT on the other hand, it serves as a checks and balances for our government (federal) making things public.


They aren't the only ones. The media isn't as unbiased and concerned with facts as it should be. Even in interviews.

There was a building burning next door to where I lived about 20 years ago, and there's this guy who says "check this out, I'm gonna tell those reporters I saw the whole thing." after he just showed up at the same time as everyone else:confused: . Sure enough, they interview him and it aires - and it was total B.S.:tsk:

Not to mention, you always see them take stuff out of context to sensationalize. Plus, you know they have an agenda. It's "whatever will sell." It's not about the truth.:(

[Buyse13]

Media in general also tries to push teenagers into the ground as if we are the enemy on the inside and trying to create anarchy. And with a teacher involved it just makes it much much easier for the media to accuse the teenagers involved of racing and pinning all the blame on the youngsters before anyone that is reading the article has the chance to focus on the big picture rather than how the media targets teens in a blame game.


ya i know this sounds very much like i am saying "we are the true victims" but that is not what i am going for. Between the ages of 12 and 22 the media has predetermined as vile and rebellious no matter what the circumstances are. A person between those ages either wasn't paying attention, being intolerant, or at complete fault which results in something bad happening.

sometimes this is completely not true, but generally this is the case.