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rbmw
02-23-2007, 08:39 AM
I ordered an 08 535i thru ED, scheduled for early May. This would be my first BMW (I currently drive a Volvo S60 R - which is great BTW) so I'm very excited! :)

I opted for most options, with the exception of active steering. Black sapphire and natural brown. As pricing isn't available for 08 yet I don't know what it's going to actually cost me, but the deal is $1K over Munich invoice.

A few quick questions:
1. Any other points I need to be aware of when negotiating the final deal? (I plan on paying for the car, not leasing it) Hidden dealer costs, etc.
2. I have young kids whom I drive around occasionally. The dealer recommended against rear side impact airbags, as BMW's philosophy is that kids are better off without airbags in the back. I don't know of other manufacturers who have the same philosophy.
3. From the BMW site I learned that the 530 is actually lighter than the 335. I assume that the 535 will weigh about the same as the 530. What is the reason for the 5 being lighter than the 3? Should be fun in terms of performance, I can't see how the 550 would be any faster than a 535, as an example...


Thanks! :thumbup:

SteVTEC
02-23-2007, 09:34 AM
3. From the BMW site I learned that the 530 is actually lighter than the 335. I assume that the 535 will weigh about the same as the 530.Nope, you're looking at a minimum 200 lb increase in weight vs the 530. The engine goes from magnesium alloy to aluminium, and you're strapping two turbos onto it with associated extra plumbing. A fully equipped 535i is probably not going to be significantly lighter than a 550i.

What is the reason for the 5 being lighter than the 3?An approximately 200 lbs heavier engine in a 335i offsets the 100 lbs heavier body in an E60, thus making a 335i heavier than a 530i. Equipped with the same exact engines and options, an E60 will be about 100 lbs heavier than an E90 3er.

Should be fun in terms of performance, I can't see how the 550 would be any faster than a 535, as an example...The 550i isn't going to be much if any heavier, and it still has a lot more power than the 535i. A 535i will probably weigh about 3700 lbs and has 300hp/300tq. The 550i weighs 3800 lbs and has 360hp/360tq. That works out to about a 15 percent power to weight ratio advantage for the 550i over the 535i.

rbmw
02-23-2007, 10:23 AM
Good info, thanks. I guess that with a vishnu chip mod the picture would look somewhat different/better. The chip upgrade did wonders to my R.

Ugly Bear
02-24-2007, 05:06 PM
Remember also that 535 is turbo, so its 300 horses are not the same as V8 horses.

SteVTEC
02-24-2007, 06:42 PM
Remember also that 535 is turbo, so its 300 horses are not the same as V8 horses.
how so?

HPIA4v2
02-24-2007, 08:14 PM
:)

Ugly Bear
02-24-2007, 10:19 PM
how so?

Because torque is not as smooth as you might think. Try driving 335i and see if you like it. I didn't. Turbo lag is prominent and torgue is low below 1500rpm. Bumps in power when first and second turbo kick in are very prominent. V8 is smooth and powerful all the way from idle, no bumps, no sudden change is power output. Maybe I am picky, but so far I am happy I test drove 335 and prompty changed my order from 2008 535 to 2007 530. 2007 may be slower 0-60 but it was more pleasant to drive in typical daily traffic, 0-40mph. My other car is Infiniti FX45 and 4.5L V8 310hp engine feels vastly different from 300hp 3.0 turbo. Your mileage may vary, of course.

SteveinBelAir
02-25-2007, 04:12 PM
Because torque is not as smooth as you might think. Try driving 335i and see if you like it. I didn't. Turbo lag is prominent and torgue is low below 1500rpm. Bumps in power when first and second turbo kick in are very prominent..

Umm...the N54 engine does not have sequential turbos. Each turbo is fed from three cylinders. They work in parallel, together, at the same time.

Ugly Bear
02-25-2007, 08:47 PM
Dunno. That's what it felt like. Try 335, see what you feel. Maybe it was my imagination.:)

Ugly Bear
02-26-2007, 12:14 AM
Actually, this graph somewhat explains is:

http://www.automobilemag.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0609_2007_bmw_335i_coupe_dynamometer_chart/

Torque largely does not exist below 1300, then steadily increases on one rate, then another and peaks at 2300 or so. I guess I felt that peak at around 2500. Looks like you have to rev the engine up a bit before engaging gears. This should work well with manual, but probably not so well with automatic unless BMW is bringing a new auto for 535i. Can't find dyno graph for 530i though.

I'll go try 335 one more time. Maybe second time my impression is going to be different.

mapezzul
02-26-2007, 07:23 AM
There is no perceivable lag in the turbo engine.... The turbos spin up almost immediately. There is more lag in the auto tranny than the engine. That is a fact. The difference in the turbo versus the V8 is more in the V8's nature to want to rev, the turbo does not need that and has constant torque available much of the rev range. Best of luck!:thumbup:

Ugly Bear
02-26-2007, 03:47 PM
There is no perceivable lag in the turbo engine.... The turbos spin up almost immediately.

Well, here how it feels to me: I press accelerator and observe that engine rpm is going up but car barely moves. I keep pressing and at about 1500rpm car suddenly beging moving faster - a bit of a jerking movement. I keep pressing and at about 2500 rpm a bit more power come on line.

In naturally aspirated engine feeling is a more linear without any bumps in power. It is slower if you step on it, but power feels more proportional to the accelerator pressure if you will...

niktee
03-03-2007, 03:24 AM
Give us the freakin' '08 530i! Damn BMW NA! I'm not power hungry I don't have the budget for the 550, don't want the gutless 528, and have never been enamored with anything turbo. Just one man's opinion. This entire thing has me thinking about Audi when the lease is up in December.

SteVTEC
03-03-2007, 05:14 AM
Actually, this graph somewhat explains is:

http://www.automobilemag.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0609_2007_bmw_335i_coupe_dynamometer_chart/

Torque largely does not exist below 1300, then steadily increases on one rate, then another and peaks at 2300 or so. I guess I felt that peak at around 2500. Looks like you have to rev the engine up a bit before engaging gears. This should work well with manual, but probably not so well with automatic unless BMW is bringing a new auto for 535i. Can't find dyno graph for 530i though.

I'll go try 335 one more time. Maybe second time my impression is going to be different.
You're not interpreting the dyno properly. From idle to 1500 rpm they're getting the wheels rolling and aren't even on the gas yet. Then at 1500 rpm they punch it which explains the near vertical spike in the torque curve. Actually, that's just as good as most naturally aspirated motors because throttle response is never instantaneous on engines, and the engine is still accelerating while it's responding. That's very good response right there. At 2300 rpm is some momentary overboost which settles out after 1 rebound cycle under closed loop control. The engine makes peak torque below 2000 rpm, so they just didn't get on it quick enough to see that. They would have had to nail it from idle probably. I can show you a bunch of naturally aspirated engine dynos that look similar to this with a big vertical jump at the start from having the dyno start recording before you're at full throttle, and I can also show you naturally aspirated engines that have far bumpier torque curves than this. This is a pretty impressive engine. Most turbo engines that have a response curve this good fall flat on their faces above about 5000 rpm, but this one keeps going. I've seen some dynos from 330i's and they're a bit bumpier since their characteristics are dominated by the 3-stage variable intake switching in and out and not turbos. The 325i engine (and presumably the 328i) has a much smoother torque curve due to not having the variable intake manifold, but a lot less torque. As for the 535 engine with an automatic, it should be great. The torque converter will stall high enough that it'll be able to build boost from a dead stop and get you off the line hard. It won't be anything like some other turbocharged cars where the turbo doesn't even spool until about 2700 rpm, which leaves you dead in the water until about 20 mph. With a manual, just don't put the engine under any significant load below where the turbo spools and it'll be fine, like trying to roll out of a slow corner in 3rd gear. You'd need the V8 for that.

SteVTEC
03-03-2007, 05:18 AM
Give us the freakin' '08 530i! Damn BMW NA! I'm not power hungry I don't have the budget for the 550, don't want the gutless 528, and have never been enamored with anything turbo. Just one man's opinion. This entire thing has me thinking about Audi when the lease is up in December.I'm with ya. :rolleyes:

niktee
03-03-2007, 05:40 AM
I'm with ya. :rolleyes:

FINALLY! Thanks! I would really like to know the corporate weasel reasoning behind this bad, bad marketing decision. If we can get enough people bitchin', maybe the Ivory tower will listen.

krash
03-03-2007, 05:59 AM
FINALLY! Thanks! I would really like to know the corporate weasel reasoning behind this bad, bad marketing decision. If we can get enough people bitchin', maybe the Ivory tower will listen.

This has been discussed a lot.

When introducing the twin turbo 300hp engine, they could have kept the 255hp engine variants in the US Market.
330 & 335
530 & 535

There really wouldn't be any material difference in terms of performance gap relative to when they were selling the 325/330 and 525/530.

In fact, it would be more consistent to what they did in the past.

For some reason, they seemed to have wanted more performance separation between the base models and the higher end model.

SteVTEC
03-03-2007, 07:04 AM
FINALLY! Thanks! I would really like to know the corporate weasel reasoning behind this bad, bad marketing decision. If we can get enough people bitchin', maybe the Ivory tower will listen.Despite what it says in my sig, I'm actually on the fence now due to this. On a positive note, the 528i does approach the performance of the N52 530i for less than the price of last year's 525i (in automatic, which is what I'd get), so that's something to consider. But I still really want a 530i, so why should I settle for less? I don't want a 535i because the only way to enjoy that power legally is either at the track or on the autobahn. I like more moderately powered engines that you can have fun winding out without driving like a complete idiot. But the base E350 has more power and 0-60's in 6.5s. The Audi A6 3.2 (FrontTrak Multitronic) does it in about 6.6. The 528i is 7.1? Weaksauce.

I dunno. I don't want to buy it this year only for them to bring back the 530i in a year or two which is what I wanted in the first place, and then be stuck with a car that I'm not going to be satisfied with. And I'd prefer to buy BTW, not lease. sigh...

Back to fence sitting.:tsk:

chonko
03-03-2007, 07:45 PM
Give us the freakin' '08 530i! Damn BMW NA! I'm not power hungry I don't have the budget for the 550, don't want the gutless 528, and have never been enamored with anything turbo. Just one man's opinion. This entire thing has me thinking about Audi when the lease is up in December.

I think it is brilliant that we are getting power boost along with some minor interior adjustments at marginal price increase
Remember, if you are ordering Automatic transmission, there is actually a price decrease compared to MY2007 price.
With Automatic transmission the 528 is $475 cheaper than the 525i and $800 more if you are going with the Manual transmission.
The 535i is $625 more than the 530i with Automatic transmission and $1900 more if you are going with the Manual transmission.
In terms of net impact you are looking at 1.3-4% price increase with the 535i, and -1.1 to 1.8% price change.
So I don't honestly see what is wrong with this deal.
Just my two cents opinion

casper
03-03-2007, 08:43 PM
You need to take another look at pricing delta considering that delivery and dealer prep are higher for MY2008

chonko
03-03-2007, 10:37 PM
You need to take another look at pricing delta considering that delivery and dealer prep are higher for MY2008

You have a valid point.
Let us look at a similarly equipped 535i with ZPP & ZSP and a 530i including Destination charges and the new Dealer preparation charges.
530i with MT= $52,795 MSRP, and 530i AT= $54,070 MSRP
535i with MT/AT=$55,260 MSRP
Price difference bracket =$1,190 to $2,465 (2.2-4.7***37; increase)

For a 525i versus 528i with ZPP & ZSP
525i with MT=$48,695, 525i with AT = $49,970
528i with MT/AT = $50,360
Price difference range = $390 to $1665 (0.8-3.4 ***37; increase).

So, yes, there is a price increase, but I still think it is reasonable, especially if you consider inflation running at about 2***37;.

On the overall, even with options, you within the proximity of percentage increase that I mentioned in my previous post, and I still think they are nominal.

SteVTEC
03-04-2007, 06:53 AM
I think it is brilliant that we are getting power boost along with some minor interior adjustments at marginal price increase
Remember, if you are ordering Automatic transmission, there is actually a price decrease compared to MY2007 price.
With Automatic transmission the 528 is $475 cheaper than the 525i and $800 more if you are going with the Manual transmission.
The 535i is $625 more than the 530i with Automatic transmission and $1900 more if you are going with the Manual transmission.
In terms of net impact you are looking at 1.3-4% price increase with the 535i, and -1.1 to 1.8% price change.
So I don't honestly see what is wrong with this deal.
Just my two cents opinionOn paper it does look great, but paper specs aren't what we're talking about. :)

chonko
03-04-2007, 09:20 AM
On paper it does look great, but paper specs aren't what we're talking about. :)

Excuse my ignorance.

kevinp
03-04-2007, 11:28 AM
Here we go: popcorn: : popcorn:

rich/minn
03-04-2007, 11:43 AM
You have a valid point.
Let us look at a similarly equipped 535i with ZPP & ZSP and a 530i including Destination charges and the new Dealer preparation charges.
530i with MT= $52,795 MSRP, and 530i AT= $54,070 MSRP
535i with MT/AT=$55,260 MSRP
Price difference bracket =$1,190 to $2,465 (2.2-4.7***37; increase)

For a 525i versus 528i with ZPP & ZSP
525i with MT=$48,695, 525i with AT = $49,970
528i with MT/AT = $50,360
Price difference range = $390 to $1665 (0.8-3.4 ***37; increase).

So, yes, there is a price increase, but I still think it is reasonable, especially if you consider inflation running at about 2%.

On the overall, even with options, you within the proximity of percentage increase that I mentioned in my previous post, and I still think they are nominal.

Chonko is 100% right on. I was wrong a little while back. I thought for sure the net total increrase for the turbo with automatic, would of been at least $2,500. The net increase of $1190 for a automatic 535, is a great bargin,imo. I almost wish, that I waited for the 2008 535. However, i got a deal, on a 2007 bmw 530 sport, that i could not pass up. $4,000 off the price, a great money factor(.20 mark-up for a total of, .00120) and no mark up on the acqusition fee. :)

Ugly Bear
03-04-2007, 01:06 PM
As for the 535 engine with an automatic, it should be great. The torque converter will stall high enough that it'll be able to build boost from a dead stop and get you off the line hard.

I am not interpreting dyno, I am trying to use to explain what I felt while test driving 335i (twice) the last month. Did you try 335 with auto? It does not leave you dead until 20mph, but it does leave you dead until 15mph. Sure, if you step on it at every traffic light, it probably feels great. Real life, however, is different. Car in front of you begins moving. You slowly press accelerator to follow. Power is weak. You press more and car jumps. Now next light is red, car in front begins breaking, you release gas pedal. Engine rpm drops below 1500. Light goes green so you press gas again. No power. Press more, sudden bump in power, exaggerated by the fact that sometimes auto downshifts at this very moment. Manual is, of course, different. You are in better control.

Now, back to dyno. Compare

335ci (http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=647)http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=647

330 (http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?Flap=Graph&ChartsID=198) http://www.rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?Flap=Graph&ChartsID=198

330 engine torque curve appears more linear. Again, I am not arguing that TT is not fast or is not powerful. It is. I am arguing about its performance in daily city commute. I typically do not engage in high g acceleration from traffic light to traffic light - maybe that's my problem :)

I am also not sure why TT is not available on E60 in, say, UK, and instead 530 is getting 272hp as well as there is (supposedly lower cost than 550) 540. It is not even available in Germany, according to this: http://www.bmw.com/generic/de/de/products/automobiles/download/pdf/5_LI_datasheet.pdf

palmster
03-04-2007, 01:09 PM
Got $2,000 under the munich base delivery price of $47,990. Thought it was a good deal, but after I signed the paperwork, I was told that the money factor on the lease is .00319 for a 12k/yr 60% residual lease. This is quite high, given the current lease program for the 07's is .0020.

Does anyone know if the dealers have flexibility on this money factor. While they seemed to be discounting the car, the money factor makes the monthly payment for the 08 5's seem like 07 payments on the 7 series. Not sure why they doing this. Was told there could be better lease deal before I pick the car up in June. Anyone out there know when these lease programs come down to earth?

aficionado
03-04-2007, 02:02 PM
Just a couple notes on price.

One reason BMW's are expensive is the currency exchange rate.

1 dollar buys .75 euros. This means a $1 cup of coffee in the U.S. will cost $1.31 in Germany. A WEAK U.S. dollar makes imports more expensive.

So, base soly on the exchange rate, BMW needs to raise their prices, otherwise they will make less money per car.

By the way the Japanese buy and sell Yen when needed.

munich5
03-04-2007, 09:53 PM
Because torque is not as smooth as you might think. Try driving 335i and see if you like it. I didn't. Turbo lag is prominent and torgue is low below 1500rpm. Bumps in power when first and second turbo kick in are very prominent. V8 is smooth and powerful all the way from idle, no bumps, no sudden change is power output. Maybe I am picky, but so far I am happy I test drove 335 and prompty changed my order from 2008 535 to 2007 530. 2007 may be slower 0-60 but it was more pleasant to drive in typical daily traffic, 0-40mph. My other car is Infiniti FX45 and 4.5L V8 310hp engine feels vastly different from 300hp 3.0 turbo. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Could not agree with you more. The 550i offers raw, naturally aspirated power. Although BMW has very creatively engineered the new 3.0 Bi-Turbo engine, it still lacks the consistency and "umph" of the V8 motor. I find that the Turbo engine does have turbo lag, perhaps less that most traditional turbos, but it's still there in some form.

FireWalker
03-05-2007, 11:45 AM
Give us the freakin' '08 530i! Damn BMW NA! I'm not power hungry I don't have the budget for the 550, don't want the gutless 528, and have never been enamored with anything turbo. Just one man's opinion. This entire thing has me thinking about Audi when the lease is up in December.
I do agree with your first sentence. However, have you looked at the specs for the new 528 ?
0-60 in 6.5s for manual, is hardly 'gutless' and new 'sport' auto coming mid-year which hopefully will improve the numbers for the auto as well.
Personally, i'm not even considering the 528, but I don't think it's performance will be much different from last years 530.

Ugly Bear
03-05-2007, 08:13 PM
This has been discussed a lot.

When introducing the twin turbo 300hp engine, they could have kept the 255hp engine variants in the US Market.

In fact, it would be more consistent to what they did in the past.

For some reason, they seemed to have wanted more performance separation between the base models and the higher end model.

There are few things I am not getting. Maybe someone could explain. First, why US is always getting less engines? Why no V8 540? Second, why US is getting E60 TT while Europe is getting 530l I6 with 272hp? Third, Why BMW is suddenly into turbo? What's wrong with naturally aspirated 3.5L I6? They do can make it, can't they? There was M3 I6 after all...

Would it be better to have 528 I6, 535 I6, 540 V8 and 550 V8 instead?

SteVTEC
03-06-2007, 06:00 AM
There are few things I am not getting. Maybe someone could explain. First, why US is always getting less engines? Why no V8 540? Second, why US is getting E60 TT while Europe is getting 530l I6 with 272hp? Third, Why BMW is suddenly into turbo? What's wrong with naturally aspirated 3.5L I6? They do can make it, can't they? There was M3 I6 after all...

Would it be better to have 528 I6, 535 I6, 540 V8 and 550 V8 instead?In response to your other reply, I think part of what you were experiencing with the 535i is just not knowing how to drive an engine with a different type of powerband. Yes, a turbo engine will still respond a bit differently than an NA one. Just adjust your driving pattern accordingly. In light load driving in traffic, I could definitely see how you'd feel a lot more lag since there's very little exhaust energy to wind up the turbos with.

As for a 3.5L Inline-6, no that's not practical. Inline-6 engines are very poor as far as space efficiency goes. The engine would have to be even longer, in which case it wouldn't fit into the smaller 3 or 1-series cars, OR it'd have to switch to an iron block which would be a lot heavier than aluminum or the magnesium alloy blocks and screw up the weight distribution. Previous 3.4-3.6L I-6 engines from BMW were iron block and extremely heavy, a bit longer, and also had cylinder walls that were thinner than some race engines which isn't good for long-term durability. Hence, BMW is going to turbos. V-6 engines are far more space efficient and can get big displacements in smaller form factors.

RichReg
03-06-2007, 05:34 PM
I do agree with your first sentence. However, have you looked at the specs for the new 528 ?
0-60 in 6.5s for manual, is hardly 'gutless' and new 'sport' auto coming mid-year which hopefully will improve the numbers for the auto as well.

Apparently, the brochure for the '08 E60 seems to say that the Sport Automatic Transmission will only be available for the 535i & 550i:
(page 14)

http://aronkober.com/Documents/08%205%20Brochure.pdf (http://aronkober.com/Documents/08***37;205%20Brochure.pdf)

FireWalker
03-06-2007, 08:37 PM
Yes, you're right. Still not bad numbers at all for the 528. Would be interesting to see how much it will affect the 535 and 550 numbers, if any.

ks-man
03-09-2007, 11:17 PM
After a little research I'm surprised that people are concerned about Turbo Lag. Edmunds review said the 335 had no noticeable turbo lag and Car and Driver only had positive things to say about the 335. I then read some of the posts on the 335 boards and most (granted not all) people said they could never tell it was turbo except for the blazing speed a.k.a. no turbo lag.

Is there a reason we should expect the 535 to be any different?

goodman
03-10-2007, 12:23 AM
Remember also that 535 is turbo, so its 300 horses are not the same as V8 horses.
I have not driven a 335, but I used to have a 94 Toyota Supra Turbo, with a 3.0 liter straight 6 and twin turbos making 320 hp. There was a lot of ink in the press and from Toyota about how the twin sequential turbos eliminated lag, but they really didn't eliminate it completely. And it could get a little hairy when the second turbo kicked in while you were in 2d gear going around a slow corner. The turbo whine sounded like a jet when you stepped on it, and when you backed off the throttle, the whine would be replaced by the chuffing of the exhaust. Very nice. Gas mileage was not that great in this 3500 lb vehicle. It would deliver 17 mpg when I was having fun and 19 mpg when I wasn't having any. I always thought this car should have had a V8.

A 335i makes 300 hp from a 3.0 liter straight six with twin turbos, while a Lexus 3.5 liter, naturally aspirated V6 makes 306 hp. I wonder which is the more elegant solution toward achieving 300 hp.

SteVTEC
03-10-2007, 03:50 AM
After a little research I'm surprised that people are concerned about Turbo Lag. Edmunds review said the 335 had no noticeable turbo lag and Car and Driver only had positive things to say about the 335. I then read some of the posts on the 335 boards and most (granted not all) people said they could never tell it was turbo except for the blazing speed a.k.a. no turbo lag.

Is there a reason we should expect the 535 to be any different?You should never believe anything a magazine says purely because most automotive press these days are nothing but fronts for manufacturers PR departments. Manufacturers have been saying "lag is gone" from turbo engines for years now, all of the automotive press complies by just repeating what the manufacturers say (and don't want to put their advertising revenue at risk by daring to be critical), and then when you go on forums like these suddenly you hear about lag, AFTER people have already bought the cars. Go figure, LOL.

As far as actual 335 owners, they're all in "new car bias" mode, are not likely to acknowledge any flaws and if they do they'll downplay them, and as a result you're probably not going to get a truly objective assessment. With my first new car (a Honda), fanboy mentality had already set it solidly for this particular car, and for daring to voice some pretty obvious and GLARING flaws with the car I was nearly flamed right off the site. So people that are in the know about the flaws aren't likely to speak up either. I just speak my mind and don't really care.

Want the other side of the story? Go to www.clublexus.com and look in the IS350 or Car Chat forums. Try to find some people that test drove the 335i and then see what they thought, and why they didn't buy the BMW. Probably reliability concerns, but they'd take note on engine differences too. Then you'll have both sides of the story.

ks-man
03-10-2007, 06:32 AM
You should never believe anything a magazine says purely because most automotive press these days are nothing but fronts for manufacturers PR departments. Manufacturers have been saying "lag is gone" from turbo engines for years now, all of the automotive press complies by just repeating what the manufacturers say (and don't want to put their advertising revenue at risk by daring to be critical), and then when you go on forums like these suddenly you hear about lag, AFTER people have already bought the cars. Go figure, LOL.




I don't know, reading the reviews they definitely point out some negatives (mainly the electronics and Idrive as well as the cost premium). If it was straight PR you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with the car. The reviews are glowing about the performance particularly with respect to the turbo engine. I would be suspicious if there wasn't anything wrong with the car, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There just doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the integration of the twin-turbo engine and that is what I'm focusing on.

chonko
03-10-2007, 07:11 AM
I don't know, reading the reviews they definitely point out some negatives (mainly the electronics and Idrive as well as the cost premium). If it was straight PR you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with the car. The reviews are glowing about the performance particularly with respect to the turbo engine. I would be suspicious if there wasn't anything wrong with the car, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There just doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the integration of the twin-turbo engine and that is what I'm focusing on.

I agree with you. The reviews on the 335i are not just PR reviews, the car indeed merits everything single praise it has received in the performance department.
There are the usual complains like electronics, styling and the ever-present cup-holder, but nothing major.
Turbo lag- yes there is; is it perceptible- I would say to the trained ear, and at ultra low revs. The engineers did not claim to have eliminated it, their actual words were " turbo lag is almost a thing of the past"
Should we expect the same from 535i- absolutely, and I think it will be even better.

SteVTEC
03-10-2007, 09:51 AM
I don't know, reading the reviews they definitely point out some negatives (mainly the electronics and Idrive as well as the cost premium). If it was straight PR you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with the car. The reviews are glowing about the performance particularly with respect to the turbo engine. I would be suspicious if there wasn't anything wrong with the car, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There just doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the integration of the twin-turbo engine and that is what I'm focusing on.All I'm saying is beware what you read in auto magazines. Just because a magazine says something is awesome and that they couldn't find any flaws with it doesn't mean that flaws don't exist, or that they're not serious. They may have downplayed a big flaw as unimportant, or not even mention it. And magazines ARE influenced by mfr press departments, are influenced by advertising revenues and "marketing arrangements", and by subscriber base demographics, among other things. Don't believe for a minute that you're getting 100% objective and unbiased coverage and analysis of cars, because the auto rags are anything but.

YMMV.

palmster
03-10-2007, 12:48 PM
I'm sorry to rant, but with all due respect, your exchange rate theory is correct in theory but NOT factual. This suggestion is the oldest dealership excuse in the book to jack up sales. Are you a dealer or have you just been duped into beleiving this?

I would hope BMW buyers are ALOT more intellegent than your statement.

If exchange rates of the EURO really determined price increases then BMW and especially Porsche would have been out of business years ago. Infact BMW and Porsche are the most dominant German trading corporates in the currency markets today. The reason both are able to sell cars in markets where the EURO is expensive relative the USD or JPY is they buy structured currency derivatives and vanilla/exotic option structures to either enhance investment returns or hedge future exchange rate movements as they relate to production costs and future sales forecasts. Given the success of their hedging programs BMW can still produce their 2007 and 2008 models pretty darn close to 1999-2000 costs. Porsche is only in business today because of their currency trading. This is fact. Look at the financial statements. These two companies in particular at this very moment have leveraged their huge balance sheets and have BILLIONS OF EURO notional on their books. Their positions are more substantial than the largest hedge fund punters and central bank players and they have enough to cover margin calls.

By the way the Japanese are currency manipulators and have kept JPY weaker than the USD for years. This grew Toyota into the biggest car company in the world. The dealers complained they had to raise prices of Camrys because in order for the japanese to repatriate $ based sales to Japan they lost money.. HOG WASH! As we see now, they were compensated nicely to hold Long USD currency contracts, just as BMW will for holding Long EUR, short USD positions.


When someone tells you BMW needs to raise their prices due to the exchange rate, because they will make less money on the car, you should immediately walk out of the dealership and never return or do business with them again. If their hedging program blows up and they claim chapter 11 status, perhaps this statement will hold true.

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Just a couple notes on price.

One reason BMW's are expensive is the currency exchange rate.

1 dollar buys .75 euros. This means a $1 cup of coffee in the U.S. will cost $1.31 in Germany. A WEAK U.S. dollar makes imports more expensive.

So, base soly on the exchange rate, BMW needs to raise their prices, otherwise they will make less money per car.

By the way the Japanese buy and sell Yen when needed.

Ugly Bear
03-10-2007, 03:01 PM
In light load driving in traffic, I could definitely see how you'd feel a lot more lag since there's very little exhaust energy to wind up the turbos with.

Exactly. But that's 90% of my daily driving. And unfortunately, there is no NA engine available except 528 and 550. With xi only 528 left. Maybe BMW assumes that everyone drives on highways, :dunno:

How I am suppose to "adjust my driving pattern" - rev the engine up, jump and hit the car in front of me? Or get used to traffic light racing? :)

I still don't get why BMW went into TT, especially in E60. Why not 540 V8 and 530 I6 like in Europe? I suspect they assume that all Americans care about is horsepower and 0-60 times and to compete with Infiniti and Lexus they MUST provide 300hp 6-cylinder engine.

Funny, Audi seems to be moving away from turbo while BMW is suddenly thinks it is the greatest thing.

Ugly Bear
03-10-2007, 03:07 PM
A 335i makes 300 hp from a 3.0 liter straight six with twin turbos, while a Lexus 3.5 liter, naturally aspirated V6 makes 306 hp. I wonder which is the more elegant solution toward achieving 300 hp.

Of course Lexus. If I was buying new car 6 months from now when only available AWD car from BMW with decent power would be 535xi, I would buy Audi A6 instead, especially since they also have 4.2 V8 Quattro. A6 is a good car and the only thing I disagree with is Audi odd overassited steering, but that bugs me less than turbo.

Ugly Bear
03-10-2007, 03:17 PM
As for a 3.5L Inline-6, no that's not practical. Inline-6 engines are very poor as far as space efficiency goes.

Errrh... What's wrong with 330 horses in 3.2L I6 in M3? Or maybe bring back 300hp 540? I'd rather have V8 AWD, like Audi A6 4.2.

RichReg
03-10-2007, 04:24 PM
If exchange rates of the EURO really determined price increases then BMW and especially Porsche would have been out of business years ago. Infact BMW and Porsche are the most dominant German trading corporates in the currency markets today. The reason both are able to sell cars in markets where the EURO is expensive relative the USD or JPY is they buy structured currency derivatives and vanilla/exotic option structures to either enhance investment returns or hedge future exchange rate movements as they relate to production costs and future sales forecasts. Given the success of their hedging programs BMW can still produce their 2007 and 2008 models pretty darn close to 1999-2000 costs. Porsche is only in business today because of their currency trading. This is fact. Look at the financial statements. These two companies in particular at this very moment have leveraged their huge balance sheets and have BILLIONS OF EURO notional on their books. Their positions are more substantial than the largest hedge fund punters and central bank players and they have enough to cover margin calls.

By the way the Japanese are currency manipulators and have kept JPY weaker than the USD for years. This grew Toyota into the biggest car company in the world. The dealers complained they had to raise prices of Camrys because in order for the japanese to repatriate $ based sales to Japan they lost money.. HOG WASH! As we see now, they were compensated nicely to hold Long USD currency contracts, just as BMW will for holding Long EUR, short USD positions.


When someone tells you BMW needs to raise their prices due to the exchange rate, because they will make less money on the car, you should immediately walk out of the dealership and never return or do business with them again. If their hedging program blows up and they claim chapter 11 status, perhaps this statement will hold true.

Just an FYI but, hedging and hedging strategies are not inexpensive in themselves, If the dollar maintained its strength against the Euro, then for the LONG term, BMW, Porsche, etc. wouldn't have to practice any hedging AT ALL. But the fact of the matter is that the Euro has been higher than the dollar for some 3 1/2 years now so eventually, the higher cost WILL catch up to all of the European manufacturers. But that's why they do things like build plants in China, etc. This can help dissipate the effect, but make no mistake, it is not a declining cost for them....it rises every year that they have to continue working their "strategies".

FireWalker
03-10-2007, 05:38 PM
Of course Lexus. If I was buying new car 6 months from now when only available AWD car from BMW with decent power would be 535xi, I would buy Audi A6 instead, especially since they also have 4.2 V8 Quattro. A6 is a good car and the only thing I disagree with is Audi odd overassited steering, but that bugs me less than turbo.
Here's even more competition from Audi...

Flee67
03-10-2007, 07:16 PM
Previous 3.4-3.6L I-6 engines from BMW were iron block and extremely heavy, a bit longer, and also had cylinder walls that were thinner than some race engines which isn't good for long-term durability.
The "Big Six" from BMW, which was used in the E28 and E34 5ers (among others) are known for their long term durability, as long as they are serviced appropriately.

chonko
03-10-2007, 07:55 PM
Here's even more competition from Audi...

The A5 is comparable to the E92 335i in terms of pricing, whilst the S5 is comparable to the E92 335i in terms of performance.
The A5/S5 are in the same class as the E92 328/335 depending on the A5 engine variant..

chonko
03-10-2007, 08:01 PM
Of course Lexus. If I was buying new car 6 months from now when only available AWD car from BMW with decent power would be 535xi, I would buy Audi A6 instead, especially since they also have 4.2 V8 Quattro. A6 is a good car and the only thing I disagree with is Audi odd overassited steering, but that bugs me less than turbo.

On what basis is the Lexus 3.5 litre V6 a more elegant proposition than the N54 engine.
I think we need to look at the entire characteristics of the engines.
1. Peak Horsepower and RPM.
2. Peak Torque
3. Toque bandwidth
4. Fuel management
5. Engine smoothness
6. Weight of the engine

palmster
03-10-2007, 08:18 PM
I agree RichReg hedging is a variable cost, but you can be rest assured BMW is no dummy in this regard and have employed several zero cost hedging strategies as well.

My post was in reply to a person in the forum who was justifying BMW price increases with a weakening USD. Over the long run, if BMW cannot effectively hedge costs then yes that person might be correct. Interest rates are rising in EURO zone, so perhaps their overnight funding costs on european balance sheet positions may rise, but the funding costs for their US balances are surely hedged appropriately against higher, flat, and lower US rates. how much of this really filters down into an increase in price? We'll never know until we become treasurer or CFO of the firm. My bet is not a heck of alot.

In the meantime lets enjoy the product.

Ugly Bear
03-10-2007, 08:45 PM
On what basis is the Lexus 3.5 litre V6 a more elegant proposition than the N54 engine.
I think we need to look at the entire characteristics of the engines.
1. Peak Horsepower and RPM.
2. Peak Torque
3. Toque bandwidth
4. Fuel management
5. Engine smoothness
6. Weight of the engine

On pleasure to drive in typical conditions (not on a racetrack and not at 100mph). #5, I guess. GS350 is pretty snappy in sport mode, quiet and smooth in stop'n'go.