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lwall
03-10-2007, 03:30 PM
Which of these two cars is the more reliable?

irobinson
03-10-2007, 04:31 PM
That depends on your point of view. I had an A6, and it was a good car, just usual German car crap. Nothing that left you on the side of the road, but annoying (and it didn't help that the dealer was a little lazy).

krash
03-10-2007, 04:32 PM
Which of these two cars is the more reliable?

No data.

535xi isn't out yet.

But historically, BMW scores well in J.D Powers relative to Audi.

AzNMpower32
03-10-2007, 05:02 PM
If anything, it should be the BMW. However, neither are known for their reliability. Audi the luxury brand of VW.........

The 5 will be more exciting to drive than the A6. However, I do like the A6 a lot, but the way they force you to order expensive option packages on top of each other drives me :mad: . Oh and no shifting for yourself either.

mapezzul
03-10-2007, 05:13 PM
Oh and no shifting for yourself either.

Same with the BMW, no manual until SOP 09/07.

Ugly Bear
03-10-2007, 08:56 PM
No data.

535xi isn't out yet.

But historically, BMW scores well in J.D Powers relative to Audi.

Recent issue of Consumer Reports on cars places BMW and Audi approximately in the same place, average reliability. In predicted reliability Audi is 7 places higher. Here is the list

Toyota +48% better than average
Honda +48%
Acura +36
Lexus +35
Subary +34
Hyundai +31
Infiniti +15
Mitsubishi +7
Mercury +5
Mazda +5
Audi -4
Lincoln -8
GMC -11
Volvo -13
Ford -13
Kia -13
Buick -14
BMW -16
Pontiac -16
Chevrolet -21
Dodge -24
Chrysler -24
Nissan -28
Saab -31
Suzuki -31
VW -31
Porsche -35
Saturn -52
Cadillac -52
Jeep -53
Jaguar -59
Hummer -70
Land Rover -97
Mercedes -123

So, according to CR, BMW is less reliable than Ford and Buick. :cry:

kevinp
03-11-2007, 05:11 AM
and KIA too:clap:

mapezzul
03-11-2007, 05:24 AM
CR is a bunch of hog wash.... they only poll their subscribers, not an ideal sample. Also the less electronics, the less problems. The inability for someone to figure out how to set a preset or how the memory seats work constitutes a problem. Last time I checked I did not know a single person that subscribed to this magazine. I take this stuff with a grain of salt but Audi and BMW have been doing much better in recent years. :thumbup:

GolferEngineer
03-11-2007, 06:41 AM
:tsk: CR is a bunch of hog wash.... they only poll their subscribers, not an ideal sample. Also the less electronics, the less problems. The inability for someone to figure out how to set a preset or how the memory seats work constitutes a problem. Last time I checked I did not know a single person that subscribed to this magazine. I take this stuff with a grain of salt but Audi and BMW have been doing much better in recent years. :thumbup:

CR is the only reliable source. You CANNOT trust JD Powers because, if you look at the categories, every car wins something. CR is unbiased and I've been a life member for over 15 years. I've toured their facilities and I know they can be trusted with honest reporting.

CR is not the only place to look. I bought a 2002 Sentra based on CR's reccommendations - it turned out that the following year it went from highest to lowest ratings and I have the repair receipts to prove it.

CR also said the 2006 5 series was reliable and reccommended it. I've had mine in the shop averaging at least once a month for the past year!

So, use CR and other reports as as starting point but don't blindly trash them! They're the last good hope we have for unbiased reporting.

krash
03-11-2007, 06:53 AM
J.D Power is generally considered a better benchmark than Consumer Reports. Based on the 2006 survey, BMW was above the industry average (and actually in the top 10 and above Infiniti). Audi was below the industry average, and of course, Land Rover--as usual--was in last place by several miles. BUT REMEMBER, the 535xi isn't out yet, so it isn't included in these stats.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a313/silvercts/JDPOWERS.gif


CR is the only reliable source. You CANNOT trust JD Powers because, if you look at the categories, every car wins something.


This is not really true. Every car wins something??? Not Land Rover. J.D Power results are based on more statistically relevant data. Your personal experiences and the fact that you have been a CR member for 15 years are not statistically relevant.

GolferEngineer
03-11-2007, 07:41 AM
CR tests the cars, JD Powers does not.

JD Powers does not have labs to tour, etc. It is based only on opinions, NOT testing data!

krash
03-11-2007, 08:00 AM
CR tests the cars, JD Powers does not.

JD Powers does not have labs to tour, etc. It is based only on opinions, NOT testing data!

I don't want to start a CR vs J.D Power war. Both are useful. CR does test & rank cars, so do Road & Track, Car and Driver and MotorTrend. Remember, the results of those type of tests are often subjective and DO NOT measure long term reliability.

However, being Six Sigma certified, I really appreciate J.D Power's quantitative analysis with regard to measuring problems per every 100 vehicles. J.D Power is not biased. Not at all.

If I had to make a decision based on CR or J.D Power, I'd go with J.D Power.

Ugly Bear
03-11-2007, 09:29 AM
CR is a bunch of hog wash.... they only poll their subscribers, not an ideal sample. Also the less electronics, the less problems. The inability for someone to figure out how to set a preset or how the memory seats work constitutes a problem. Last time I checked I did not know a single person that subscribed to this magazine. I take this stuff with a grain of salt but Audi and BMW have been doing much better in recent years. :thumbup:

Well, counting that there are 2 million+ subscribers (I do subscribe btw - last page is always hilarious :rofl: ), results are statistically OK. And at any rate better than manufacturer statement (one-sided, of course) or car magazine information (paid by advetisement). Generally the list does represent (at least to me) what I have heard myself about Land Rover, Jaguar and Merc at one end of the spectrum and about Lexus or Infiniti at another :) . And yes, if something is too complex to figure out - it is a problem as it is anywhere else, like in computers, for one thing. iDrive is a hideous user-interface design (I am software professional), BMW really needs professional help there :mad: .

Now, average reliability is not a bad place to be IMO. Nothing wrong really with Huyindai to be ahead: they are simpler cars with older engine design (benefit is that bugs are fixed). I bet if BMW built 1985 model using today's tools and materials it would last forever.

Ford and Buick are odd indeed. However, I did hear that Ford improved in the last 4 years albeit I never owned one. I did own a Jeep at some point and it was pretty bad.

Ugly Bear
03-11-2007, 09:35 AM
:tsk:
CR also said the 2006 5 series was reliable and reccommended it. I've had mine in the shop averaging at least once a month for the past year!

Since I am still waiting for my MY07 530xi: what kind of problems did you have?

Ugly Bear
03-11-2007, 09:40 AM
CR does test & rank cars, so do Road & Track, Car and Driver and MotorTrend.

First, magazines are commercial enterprises. I personally don't trust anything that is paid by advertisement. Now, C&D and other mags stated several times: they test how car drives, ie driver satisfaction, they practically never test how reliable the car is. So if car is fantastic on the track, C&D will praise it even if it is going to spend 90% of its time in the shop. And it will blast 100% reliable 2.0L 4-banger family sedan with 10s 0-60 time albeit for 90% of the population the second car would be a better choice.

Pjuran
03-11-2007, 10:20 AM
I currently have a 2003 A4 3.0 Quattro. Great car.

Picked up a 550i a few weeks back and love it. No regrets at all. I was looking at the A6 4.2 quattro S-Line but the rates on the BMWs were way better and wanted to try something new. I also was not crazy about the styling of the A6.

I have a feeling that the 550 will not match the Audi in bad weather driving. But that is to be expected. When the snow comes next season I just swap out the summer tires for some all seasons or winter tire and take my chances.

Love the Audi A8 L 4.2. That's a really nice rig! Better than the 7 series in my opinion.

GolferEngineer
03-11-2007, 10:43 AM
I don't want to start a CR vs J.D Power war. Both are useful. CR does test & rank cars, so do Road & Track, Car and Driver and MotorTrend. Remember, the results of those type of tests are often subjective and DO NOT measure long term reliability.

However, being Six Sigma certified, I really appreciate J.D Power's quantitative analysis with regard to measuring problems per every 100 vehicles. J.D Power is not biased. Not at all.

If I had to make a decision based on CR or J.D Power, I'd go with J.D Power.

JD Powers does not test cars! Why would you ever, being six sigma certified, go with statistical data that is not based upon scientific methods?

Yes, we should also use any test reports from magazines, etc. but to base scientific decsions on non-scientific data (opinion polls of customers) is incorrect. What JD Powers gives you is the apparent reliability of cars based on customer feelings NOT testing results. You may also realize that opinion polls are also skewed in favor of American cars by car buyers that believe they are buying American - which is totally false.

GolferEngineer
03-11-2007, 10:54 AM
Here is a quick list of the problems:

Recalls for the steering sensor, rear shocks and O2 sensor that caused the check engine light to come on.

Sirius radio reception problems that have not been fixed after numerous service calls and the controller and antenna replacement.

An acoustic buzz/resonance problem with the front speakers that is unresolved.

An Aux audio input level that became too low after a software upgrade was done - still unresolved.

The iDrive display and stereo won't come on sometimes unless the car sits overnight - this is still unresolved after a PUMA software download.

Not to mention that I had a drifting to the left after the rear shocks were replaced, left the car and they said there was no problem. I drove the car out of the dealer's lot and the drift was still there. Took it back and the service manager noticed it immediately. They resolved it by swapping front and back tires - I really don't think this is the proper solution.

Other problems were caused by the service department including glue residue on the paint when the antenna was replaced. Numerous dirt and grease marks in the interior that the service folks left and didn't clean up.

I could go on (Oh, yeah, they ate some of the candy I had in my driver's door pocket and didn't even have the decency to throw the wrapers away - they were on the drivers side floor when I picked it up).

And to think I choose this dealer becayse of the service department.

mapezzul
03-11-2007, 11:03 AM
:tsk:

CR is the only reliable source. You CANNOT trust JD Powers because, if you look at the categories, every car wins something. CR is unbiased and I've been a life member for over 15 years. I've toured their facilities and I know they can be trusted with honest reporting.

CR is not the only place to look. I bought a 2002 Sentra based on CR's reccommendations - it turned out that the following year it went from highest to lowest ratings and I have the repair receipts to prove it.

CR also said the 2006 5 series was reliable and reccommended it. I've had mine in the shop averaging at least once a month for the past year!

So, use CR and other reports as as starting point but don't blindly trash them! They're the last good hope we have for unbiased reporting.

Yeah well, you bought a car based on their review and it was lousy, so how does that make them reliable? My point was not believe anything you read and make an educated judgment based on several sources but then you go on to say how it is the only reliable source... strange.
As for the 3 Audi's I have had they have had no issues (knocking on wood). My MINI, and BMW have had more issues than I care to discuss. My Rover was a nightmare. I have had a few VWs with no issues; one that is still driving with 185K miles (1999 Passat). My friends have had Hondas and Toyotas that are always having issues, and Nissans that are bomb proof. So is there any real logic to car reliability.... I think not. It is a crap shoot in most accounts, just that most cars with old/less technology are usually better... I am just thankful we have longer warranties in the US than most other locations.:thumbup:

Ugly Bear
03-11-2007, 11:32 AM
Here is a quick list of the problems:

Recalls for the steering sensor, rear shocks and O2 sensor that caused the check engine light to come on.

Sirius radio reception problems that have not been fixed after numerous service calls and the controller and antenna replacement.

An acoustic buzz/resonance problem with the front speakers that is unresolved.

An Aux audio input level that became too low after a software upgrade was done - still unresolved.

The iDrive display and stereo won't come on sometimes unless the car sits overnight - this is still unresolved after a PUMA software download.

Not to mention that I had a drifting to the left after the rear shocks were replaced, left the car and they said there was no problem. I drove the car out of the dealer's lot and the drift was still there. Took it back and the service manager noticed it immediately. They resolved it by swapping front and back tires - I really don't think this is the proper solution.


So more or less serious stuff I guess are recall and iDrive weirdness. I am not sure about Sirius, but XM reception always sucked in all cars I had it in (and at home and in office). Ended up canceling all sat radios and didn't order one with E60. It is useless if you live in a wooded area like I do.

What was wrong with shocks?

GolferEngineer
03-11-2007, 11:43 AM
So more or less serious stuff I guess are recall and iDrive weirdness. I am not sure about Sirius, but XM reception always sucked in all cars I had it in (and at home and in office). Ended up canceling all sat radios and didn't order one with E60. It is useless if you live in a wooded area like I do.

What was wrong with shocks? There was a recall on the rear shocks and mine had to be replaced.

GolferEngineer
03-11-2007, 11:44 AM
Yeah well, you bought a car based on their review and it was lousy, so how does that make them reliable? My point was not believe anything you read and make an educated judgment based on several sources but then you go on to say how it is the only reliable source... strange.
As for the 3 Audi's I have had they have had no issues (knocking on wood). My MINI, and BMW have had more issues than I care to discuss. My Rover was a nightmare. I have had a few VWs with no issues; one that is still driving with 185K miles (1999 Passat). My friends have had Hondas and Toyotas that are always having issues, and Nissans that are bomb proof. So is there any real logic to car reliability.... I think not. It is a crap shoot in most accounts, just that most cars with old/less technology are usually better... I am just thankful we have longer warranties in the US than most other locations.:thumbup:

You're correct. After all the problems I've had the Audi's are looked better all the time.

Ugly Bear
03-11-2007, 01:22 PM
I don't want to start a CR vs J.D Power war. Both are useful. CR does test & rank cars, so do Road & Track, Car and Driver and MotorTrend. Remember, the results of those type of tests are often subjective and DO NOT measure long term reliability.

However, being Six Sigma certified, I really appreciate J.D Power's quantitative analysis with regard to measuring problems per every 100 vehicles. J.D Power is not biased. Not at all.

If I had to make a decision based on CR or J.D Power, I'd go with J.D Power.

Actually, speaking of JD Power. It seems that they only collect information on NEW cars. When last time we purchased two new cars, I received JD Power questionnaire 3 months after the purchase. Of course I filled it perfectly! After that, I never received anything from JDP. On the other hand, I am getting CR questionnaire every year. So it appears that JDP reflects NEW cars while CR reflects cars of all ages.

jacksonhunter31
03-15-2007, 07:11 PM
Not to distract from this scintillating exchange on the relative merits of CR or JD Power, but the OP was looking for a comparison of BMW and Audi. I have a new 535 on order for ED, have owned an 03 Audi A4 Quattro since new...the differences in my mind are pretty clear. BMW's are engineered to be about the driving experience, less time and attention is paid to the interior and there is a basic plainness to the interiors. Audi's are plusher on the inside, the internal electronic controls are better integrated. From an exterior design standpoint, the new BMW's are breathtakingly daring. Really strong design statements, very masculine cars. The Audis much less agressive in design, and softer.. of course beauty is in the eye of the beholer, but the exterior design of the 5 series is a big reason why I'm getting one instead of an A6.

One other big difference..BMW leads the planet in resale value--this matters a great deal if you like to trade cars often (as I do) because it makes leasing cheaper in the short term and buying cheaper in the long run.

bargamon
03-16-2007, 07:26 AM
My 03 allroad was a great car with no problems to speak of.

The higher the level of tech the higher the disatisfaction.

Drives get frustrated with some things and you often hear "this should not happen to a $65k car!!!!!". The thing is its a $43,000 vehicle with lots of options! Options don't make a car better "quality wise".

Lots of truths on this forum regarding the question. Bottom line is how close is your dealer and how long you planning to keep the car?

For me its a lease and its gone when the warranty is done.

If IM buying for the long haul I keep the options to a minimum. Things like active suspensions and turbos tend to get expensive to fix should they break out of warranty.

Thinngs like comfort seats, logic 7 and leather are value aded and won't require fixing.

Nav systems can be had for a fration fo the cost with a good garmin and cool mount for it. ITs portable for other vehicles also!

Is there any better value than a 525 that can be had at discount now? Load it up with options and two more cylinders can add $20 grand, a good 45***37; increase!

Its all relative to your values.

For me, I left Audi because I want a mid size sedan (a4 is tired and too small) with a MT and since I lease BMW's rates cant be beat. Audi's business plan for some time is to reduce its dependency on lease. In north carolina, quattro is nice, but a similar A6 would cost me $130 more per month for a car that costs 4 grand less!

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my new 530i, but all things being the same I would have been driving an Audi.

lwall
03-16-2007, 03:14 PM
great post. thanks