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View Full Version : 45 Day Review of iDrive with Nav


italia4
05-18-2007, 08:37 AM
After owning an iDrive with Navigation (on my 07 5 series) for 45 days, here are my opinions.

likes
split screen functionality
central location for information
traffic information
removal of clutter of buttons from dashboard
allows for long strings of text in entertainment mode
screens stays clean (non-touch screen)
ingenious way the puck stiffens when turning if there are no options left
availability of system while driving
location of screen near field of vision
perspective display of navigation

dislikes
slow scrolling through phone lists and ipod songs
slower input (non-touch screen)
slow scrolling around map
point of interest icons turning on and off is not that intuitive

Summary:
I was skeptical at first, as the iDrive has been much maligned. I must admit, the first few days, I struggled as it is not very intuitive and is not touchscreen (I am 35 with a very respectable backround in computers). However, as each day passes, I am becoming more accustomed to the system and I LOVE it. The overall power of the system, split screen, the simplicity of the design and it's appearance, has won me over. It is my favorite system so far. My previous Nav systems have been Toyota, Lexus, Mercedes, and I've used Audi, Acura, Subaru, and Cadillac. The iDrive is the benchmark.

Age observations
It seems the younger the passenger, the more they appreciate the system, the older folks that see (try out) the iDrive do not like it.

billbmw
05-18-2007, 02:46 PM
I love iDrive. It's not perfect, but I appreciate the additional functionality it brings to the vehicle. I really don't understand what all the fuss is about.

Bikie
05-18-2007, 02:50 PM
I'm 72 and it works for me. The search capabilities could use some work though.

GolferEngineer
05-18-2007, 03:29 PM
iDrive is OK but it needs a Human Factors and an ergonomic overhall. It should be more intuitive and "remember" more settings. The automatic tranmissions have more user performance memory than the iDrive. I've worked telecommunications for 34 years and we work VERY hard to make things easy to use and intuitive. Any re-design that lets me look LESS at the iDrive would be better. I do appreciate that it is NOT touch screen.

JSpira
05-18-2007, 04:55 PM
I've worked telecommunications for 34 years and we work VERY hard to make things easy to use and intuitive.

I know. Like the engineer at Bell Labs who, I guess somewhere in the 1970s, said hey, we don't have to give all Dimension users MET sets. We'll give them 2500 sets and 30-40 codes to remember and all they have to do is flash the switchhook and dial the code. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

stevepow
05-18-2007, 06:22 PM
iDrive is OK but it needs a Human Factors and an ergonomic overhall. It should be more intuitive and "remember" more settings. The automatic tranmissions have more user performance memory than the iDrive. I've worked telecommunications for 34 years and we work VERY hard to make things easy to use and intuitive. Any re-design that lets me look LESS at the iDrive would be better. I do appreciate that it is NOT touch screen.

You must be an old guy :yikes: :D

Sorry - couldn't resist. I'm knocking on the door of old guy too, but I like iDrive OK. Just too slow - I'm going to be an impatient old guy ;) .

But agree with you about touch screen - until they invent a smudge repellent surface, touch screens are terrible. My wife's Lexus has that and I'm always getting caught with the sun coming in at some angle and the screen is nothing but a blur of CSI waiting to happen. At least the BMW screen is almost always clear and aesthetically pleasing.

gjwilson
05-18-2007, 08:13 PM
After owning an iDrive with Navigation (on my 07 5 series) for 45 days, here are my opinions.

likes
split screen functionality
central location for information
traffic information
removal of clutter of buttons from dashboard
allows for long strings of text in entertainment mode
screens stays clean (non-touch screen)
ingenious way the puck stiffens when turning if there are no options left
availability of system while driving
location of screen near field of vision
perspective display of navigation

dislikes
slow scrolling through phone lists and ipod songs
slower input (non-touch screen)
slow scrolling around map
point of interest icons turning on and off is not that intuitive

Summary:
I was skeptical at first, as the iDrive has been much maligned. I must admit, the first few days, I struggled as it is not very intuitive and is not touchscreen (I am 35 with a very respectable backround in computers). However, as each day passes, I am becoming more accustomed to the system and I LOVE it. The overall power of the system, split screen, the simplicity of the design and it's appearance, has won me over. It is my favorite system so far. My previous Nav systems have been Toyota, Lexus, Mercedes, and I've used Audi, Acura, Subaru, and Cadillac. The iDrive is the benchmark.

Age observations
It seems the younger the passenger, the more they appreciate the system, the older folks that see (try out) the iDrive do not like it.


My two biggest complaints are :

1) change panel "focus" doesn't always take (ie when you move the iDrive knob back/forward right/left to jump to the next input section but nothing happens )

2) have to do too many steps to access common features. For example, to show a map on the screen you
a) move iDrive knob left to navigation
b) move iDrive knob back to saved address
c) move iDrive knob back to route list preferences
d) move iDrive knob back to map types
e) scroll iDrive to desired type
f) press iDrive to select desired map

To scroll through your list of preset radio stations, it's not as bad but you still have to
a) move iDrive knob left to entertainment
b) move iDrive knob back to presets/manual/all stations
c) move iDrive knob back to station list
d) scroll iDrive to desired type station

When one of the "move iDrive knob back" steps doesn't "take" it gets very frustrating.

FWIW I'm over 50. Does that make me one of the "old people"? I've worked with computers since high school, so it's not that I don't understand it or am afraid of it. I actually like it and want more features and functions that I can do with it. it's just that they need to look at ways to speed up the things you do frequently.

My X5 has a row of 6 buttons for storing "favourites" and this helps. (My 325 doesnt have this :cry: ) This is a good "quick and dirty" step but I think there are other things they could do within the iDrive interface itself.

For example, when selecting Entertainment, put "focus" on the dial which the user last selected from. So If I was on FM/Presets/presets list then go right to here.

or when selecting Navigation, put the last Nav screen up right away. If the user then wants to enter an address for guidance, let them do it off the side scrolling menu or by pressing down on the iDrive button with the map up.

italia4
05-18-2007, 09:47 PM
I agree some tasks can take a few steps, however, the voice commands bypass many of these steps to get you right to the menu you need. Again, it takes some getting used to...but worth it.

The Lexus Nav was a smudge magnet, I kept an eyeglass cloth in the car and constantly cleaned it.

I like the functionality of the "soft buttons" on the Mercedes Command, but there's something magical when I spin the iDrive dial and the map scale changes. it's just....cool

vern
05-19-2007, 09:33 AM
My two biggest complaints are :

1) change panel "focus" doesn't always take (ie when you move the iDrive knob back/forward right/left to jump to the next input section but nothing happens )

2) have to do too many steps to access common features. For example, to show a map on the screen you
a) move iDrive knob left to navigation
b) move iDrive knob back to saved address
c) move iDrive knob back to route list preferences
d) move iDrive knob back to map types
e) scroll iDrive to desired type
f) press iDrive to select desired map

To scroll through your list of preset radio stations, it's not as bad but you still have to
a) move iDrive knob left to entertainment
b) move iDrive knob back to presets/manual/all stations
c) move iDrive knob back to station list
d) scroll iDrive to desired type station

When one of the "move iDrive knob back" steps doesn't "take" it gets very frustrating.

FWIW I'm over 50. Does that make me one of the "old people"? I've worked with computers since high school, so it's not that I don't understand it or am afraid of it. I actually like it and want more features and functions that I can do with it. it's just that they need to look at ways to speed up the things you do frequently.

My X5 has a row of 6 buttons for storing "favourites" and this helps. (My 325 doesnt have this :cry: ) This is a good "quick and dirty" step but I think there are other things they could do within the iDrive interface itself.

For example, when selecting Entertainment, put "focus" on the dial which the user last selected from. So If I was on FM/Presets/presets list then go right to here.

or when selecting Navigation, put the last Nav screen up right away. If the user then wants to enter an address for guidance, let them do it off the side scrolling menu or by pressing down on the iDrive button with the map up.
I'm one of the "old people" and if some of the features on the I Drive are to "Slow" try VC you might like it.
cheers
vern

GolferEngineer
05-19-2007, 10:27 AM
I know. Like the engineer at Bell Labs who, I guess somewhere in the 1970s, said hey, we don't have to give all Dimension users MET sets. We'll give them 2500 sets and 30-40 codes to remember and all they have to do is flash the switchhook and dial the code. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Well, Bell Labs learned from their mistakes! Hopefully, BMW can too!

Just a side note about phones - I remeber we (AT&T) put a new phone system in a NYC hotel one night (so we wouldn't disturb the guests) but to make the system work, we had the hotel re-number the rooms. It was a disaster when folks couldn't find their right room afterwards. Yep lots of knowledge from lots of mistakes!:tsk:

chuck92103
05-19-2007, 10:29 AM
You must be an old guy :yikes: :D

Sorry - couldn't resist. I'm knocking on the door of old guy too, but I like iDrive OK. Just too slow - I'm going to be an impatient old guy ;) .

But agree with you about touch screen - until they invent a smudge repellent surface, touch screens are terrible. My wife's Lexus has that and I'm always getting caught with the sun coming in at some angle and the screen is nothing but a blur of CSI waiting to happen. At least the BMW screen is almost always clear and aesthetically pleasing.

Check the Lexus forum. There is a glare/fingerprint film that goes over the Nav screen to prevent the issues you mentioned. About $12.

As far as iDrive goes I like it overall. Could be a little faster. I would rather have it than the Acura system. I test drove an MDX and there were 63 buttons on the center console plus an iDrive type controller. Another 12 buttons on the steering wheel. :dunno:

GolferEngineer
05-19-2007, 10:34 AM
You must be an old guy :yikes: :D

Sorry - couldn't resist. I'm knocking on the door of old guy too, but I like iDrive OK. Just too slow - I'm going to be an impatient old guy ;) .

But agree with you about touch screen - until they invent a smudge repellent surface, touch screens are terrible. My wife's Lexus has that and I'm always getting caught with the sun coming in at some angle and the screen is nothing but a blur of CSI waiting to happen. At least the BMW screen is almost always clear and aesthetically pleasing.


Yep, old at 55! iDrive is great at reducing the dashboard clutter and the concept is excellent. Take a look at the Acura RL and even worse the Inifiniti M35 dashboards - way too complicated, way too may controls to be fumbling with, etc. The Lexus touch screen probably causes more accidents or close calls than anyone admits to since you have to look at the touch screen to activate some controls.

I'll take iDrive and the clean look any day but like anything else it can be improved. AND, the improvements can come with software upgrades if BMW deems to do so since the user interface controls - the few buttons, knob and screen don't have to change.

OK, BMW, lets see some user interface upgrades based on real owner's suggestions! We might even pay a reasonable fee for some.

JSpira
05-19-2007, 11:34 AM
Well, Bell Labs learned from their mistakes! Hopefully, BMW can too!

Just a side note about phones - I remeber we (AT&T) put a new phone system in a NYC hotel one night (so we wouldn't disturb the guests) but to make the system work, we had the hotel re-number the rooms. It was a disaster when folks couldn't find their right room afterwards. Yep lots of knowledge from lots of mistakes!:tsk:
Ja well that is my point. This things are by their very nature interative. We canīt get to point X if we donīt go by point D.

And yes Iīve heard stories similar to the hotel story, perhaps even the same story. Glad someone invented flexible numbering.

GolferEngineer
05-19-2007, 11:54 AM
Ja well that is my point. This things are by their very nature interative. We canīt get to point X if we donīt go by point D.

And yes Iīve heard stories similar to the hotel story, perhaps even the same story. Glad someone invented flexible numbering.

Agree! I guess we're the ones making it better for our future generations. I'm enjoying the ride and the forum, though!

gjwilson
05-19-2007, 12:24 PM
<snip>

I'll take iDrive and the clean look any day but like anything else it can be improved. AND, the improvements can come with software upgrades if BMW deems to do so since the user interface controls - the few buttons, knob and screen don't have to change.

OK, BMW, lets see some user interface upgrades based on real owner's suggestions! We might even pay a reasonable fee for some.

This is a excellent point, the software is upgradeable and features can be added and improved with time (assuming, of course that the hardware is there to support the feature)

A few of things I will add.

First, it would be nice to know what version of software I am running. Right now it seems like I can only guess based on descriptions on this board like "if your main screen looks sort of brown then you are v23 but if it's grey it's v25" or something like that. I'm not sure why they don't show the software version somewhere as a menu item in one of the info windows. There appears to be a "secret back-door" method of accessing some menues which might give you this, but it's not for the general public.

Second, it seems that some software upgrades are on a "customer complaint" basis. I'm not sure what happens when you run out of warranty, but a software upgrade could become a pricey proposition.

Third, I hate that they change the main screen colour with different software versions. In the PC world this is often refered to as the application "skin". This is definitely something that should be user selectable.

Fourth. While I'm dreaming in technicolour. it would be great if they open sourced the software and let enthusiasts contribute to updates/changes (ie like Linux). I know, I know, no way it's going to happened, software is tied too much to performance of engine etc etc. But it would be great if I could change the programming for some of the UI elements I didn't like.

Don't get me wrong. I like the iDrive and I want to see them continue improving on the software.

It's similar to when Apple introduced the mouse into mainstream PC's All the MS-DOS PC heads laughed and criticised it. Now try to find a computer without a mouse.

MSAMMY
05-19-2007, 10:09 PM
It's similar to when Apple introduced the mouse into mainstream PC's All the MS-DOS PC heads laughed and criticised it. Now try to find a computer without a mouse.

You're absolutely right, now even our Bimmers have an Idrive "mouse"!!!

My biggest complaints with the Idrive is:

1. Slow response time when moving from screen to screen at times.
2. I have comfort access and when I get into the car by grabbing the door handle to unlock the car, get in and press the start button, I'm off and driving when the Idrive is still booting up. This is a pain especially when I'm backing out of a parking space and listening for the park distance control to "beep" to ensure I'm not about to back into something!!!

Other than that, Idrive is just fine IMO :thumbup:

ks-man
05-20-2007, 09:19 AM
My two biggest complaints with Idrive are:

1) That you can't put the entertainment on the assistant window (I would prefer to have the Map on the main window and my radio on the mini one but I have to do the reverse. It basically makes the map ineffective b/c it is so small, but I hate not seeing the radio information. Also if the map is on the main window and I don't need directions I don't need anything on the assistant window (I like the arrow display when I am getting directions).

2) The perspective map doesn't have street names. This just doesn't make sense to me. The perspective map is so much better than the 2D maps, but what is the point when it doesn't give you street names? Is there something wrong with mine, or is this just a glitch in the programming?

Apart from that I've been pretty happy with it. I'd also echo what an earlier user said that when I choose navigation from the main window it should go to map right away and not require 3 movements...oh well.

wrobbins8047
05-23-2007, 05:42 PM
I been messing with it for about 3 days now, and it is growing on me.

Is there a better way to search, such as finding the local Auto Zone? Every place I need to goto I can't find it in the directory.

cBeam
05-23-2007, 08:04 PM
I really like iDrive.

iDrive in combination with HUD (no need for maps or arrows on the screen) plus voice command is really strong. VC let's me easily dial contacts in my address book. And it does a decent job understanding my accent.

Biggest need for improvement: It is too slow on boot up. And voice command does not work well with windows open, not sure if anything can be done when the ambient noise level is too high.
Then I find it cumbersome to enter an address into NAV. Sending destinations via email to the car as they announced for Europe would easily mitigate that for me. Hope they'll bring it to the US.

quote:
"Apart from that I've been pretty happy with it. I'd also echo what an earlier user said that when I choose navigation from the main window it should go to map right away and not require 3 movements...oh well."

Try voice command "map". It works like a charm.

JSpira
05-23-2007, 08:06 PM
Sending destinations via email to the car as they announced for Europe would easily mitigate that for me. Hope they'll bring it to the US.

That's been a feature in the U.S. for a while now, specifically via BMW Assist. Works quite well.

cBeam
05-23-2007, 08:25 PM
Do you mean I can email destinations to my car (in the US)? If I read BMW-Assist info on their web site it sounds different. Like I had to initiate the process from my car and can not do it sitting in front of my computer before I go to my car (?)

BMW Assist:
"Directions
Find your way.

For the shortest route to the nearest gas station, ATM, point of interest or street address, just push your SOS button and a friendly response specialist will direct you. On most 2007 models produced after 9/06 you can also now have the destination and phone number sent to your on-board navigation system with a push of the "Concierge" button, located under Communications and BMW Assist in your iDrive menu"

JSpira
05-23-2007, 09:46 PM
[quote=cBeam;2398533]Do you mean I can email destinations to my car (in the US)? If I read BMW-Assist info on their web site it sounds different. Like I had to initiate the process from my car and can not do it sitting in front of my computer before I go to my car (?)

quote]

I meant that destinations can be send by e-mail, or actually SMS, to your car. I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply YOU could e-mail it.

That is probably 2-3 years off.

ks-man
05-23-2007, 10:47 PM
I really like iDrive.


Then I find it cumbersome to enter an address into NAV. Sending destinations via email to the car as they announced for Europe would easily mitigate that for me. Hope they'll bring it to the US.

quote:
"Apart from that I've been pretty happy with it. I'd also echo what an earlier user said that when I choose navigation from the main window it should go to map right away and not require 3 movements...oh well."

Try voice command "map". It works like a charm.


Right back at you...try using voice command to enter addresses. While not perfect it is much better than typing it into iDrive :p

cBeam
05-23-2007, 11:39 PM
I don't think it is possible to enter a new destination using voice recognition. At least not with my version of iDrive.

VR for names and addresses is pretty tricky anyway. They never get my name right when I order a coffee at Starbucks. So it's either me or there are humans out there that also have trouble with their individual voice recognition routines...

mason
05-24-2007, 07:16 AM
dislikes
slow scrolling through phone lists and ipod songs
slower input (non-touch screen)
slow scrolling around map
point of interest icons turning on and off is not that intuitive

Summary:
I was skeptical at first, as the iDrive has been much maligned. I must admit, the first few days, I struggled as it is not very intuitive and is not touchscreen (I am 35 with a very respectable backround in computers). However, as each day passes, I am becoming more accustomed to the system and I LOVE it. The overall power of the system, split screen, the simplicity of the design and it's appearance, has won me over. It is my favorite system so far. My previous Nav systems have been Toyota, Lexus, Mercedes, and I've used Audi, Acura, Subaru, and Cadillac. The iDrive is the benchmark.

Age observations
It seems the younger the passenger, the more they appreciate the system, the older folks that see (try out) the iDrive do not like it.

I am not sure if touch screen is good for drivers. Consider this, you would have to lean forward whenever you input something. It is inconvenient. Now, you can just reach down the nob next to you and turn.

In general, everything is quite intuitive. I grasped the general concept 5 minutes into the test drive.

chuck92103
05-24-2007, 09:04 AM
I am not sure if touch screen is good for drivers. Consider this, you would have to lean forward whenever you input something. It is inconvenient. Now, you can just reach down the nob next to you and turn.

In general, everything is quite intuitive. I grasped the general concept 5 minutes into the test drive.

I agree. My 6 series is in for the iDrive update and some other things so they gave me a 2007 328 wagon loaner which does not have iDrive.

After using iDrive for two years, I think the 328 loaner is dangerous to drive and fiddle with the radio/cimate, etc. which is so low on the dash. You really have to take your eyes off the road. :eek: I really appreciate the display at the same level as the gauges.

ks-man
05-24-2007, 05:24 PM
I don't think it is possible to enter a new destination using voice recognition. At least not with my version of iDrive.

VR for names and addresses is pretty tricky anyway. They never get my name right when I order a coffee at Starbucks. So it's either me or there are humans out there that also have trouble with their individual voice recognition routines...

I'm not sure what car/version of iDrive you have but it does work on mine. I say enter address and it asks "what part of the address would you like to enter" and it defaults on my Chicago location. I then say "town/city" or "street name."

I'd say it gets it right accurately about 60-70% of the time, and the other times I need to do about one or two repeats. Usually I can get the whole thing entered in about 40 seconds.

The nice thing is I can start driving right away and I usually have the destination by the time I get to the main road. It is only worth it to use this system if you are driving. If you aren't then you'd want to use the iDrive mouse to enter it, but it can be dangerous to enter an address and drive at the same time. If I was more patient it wouldn't be an issue.

Ugly Bear
05-27-2007, 09:41 AM
+1

First, I believe everyone agrees that concept of less clutter and single controller for nagivation is a Good Thing. Now, concept and implementation are two completely different things. Think about telephone: it is a simple idea to dial a number. However, it can be implemented as rotary phone, touch phone or, God forbid, as a switchboard or a phone where you enter numbers with Morse code. Which one would you prefer? They are all implementations of the same concept.

iDrive can use some redesign to reduce amount of clicks and to bring most commonly used features closer, especially features often used together, like Entertainment + Nav or Nav + Phone. Scrolling should be faster, iPod adapter should support gapless playback and remember position in the track, tone and volume settings should be stored per source/station (many radio stations overboost bass), tone/fader controls should be closer, main screen should have configurable favorites section with icons (1-8 hardware buttons in MY08 is a kludge) and perhas remember last sections visited (like smartphone remembers last application used). If there is no space on screen, a single click could take you to Favorites section. I would place Favorites in the center and moved Settings to a separate button replacing lock'unlock doors button on the console. Lock/unlock could go to the door where it is placed in most cars anyway.

JSpira
05-27-2007, 09:51 AM
+1

First, I believe everyone agrees that concept of less clutter and single controller for nagivation is a Good Thing. Now, concept and implementation are two completely different things. Think about telephone: it is a simple idea to dial a number. However, it can be implemented as rotary phone, touch phone or, God forbid, as a switchboard or a phone where you enter numbers with Morse code. Which one would you prefer? They are all implementations of the same concept.

iDrive can use some redesign to reduce amount of clicks and to bring most commonly used features closer, especially features often used together, like Entertainment + Nav or Nav + Phone. Scrolling should be faster, iPod adapter should support gapless playback and remember position in the track, tone and volume settings should be stored per source/station (many radio stations overboost bass), tone/fader controls should be closer, main screen should have configurable favorites section with icons (1-8 hardware buttons in MY08 is a kludge) and perhas remember last sections visited (like smartphone remembers last application used). If there is no space on screen, a single click could take you to Favorites section. I would place Favorites in the center and moved Settings to a separate button replacing lock'unlock doors button on the console. Lock/unlock could go to the door where it is placed in most cars anyway.

Without haptic feedback, iDrive scrolls very quickly now. Personally I would have preferred that BMW adjust the haptic program rather than remove it, but all in all, itīs an improvement.

Regarding "last section visited", that is also a current feature. My car goes from the accept screen immediately to wherever I was last.

The iPod adapter suggestions (gapless playback etc.) are not iDrive dependent. Iīm not sure if these could be addressed via Progman or not.

Ugly Bear
05-27-2007, 10:11 AM
I don't mean just 'last screen' as favorites. I mean shortcuts like "Nav home", "Call home", "My favorite FM", "My favorite iPod playlist", "Tone controls", etc.

Having Nav/Entertaintment and Nav/Phone split screens is a good idea too as someone have mentioned earlier.

Maybe I haven't found it yet, but I think Nav should be able to fetch addresses from phonebook.

JSpira
05-27-2007, 10:16 AM
I don't mean just 'last screen' as favorites. I mean shortcuts like "Nav home", "Call home", "My favorite FM", "My favorite iPod playlist", "Tone controls", etc.

Having Nav/Entertaintment and Nav/Phone split screens is a good idea too as someone have mentioned earlier.

Maybe I haven't found it yet, but I think Nav should be able to fetch addresses from phonebook.

I believe European-spec cars can synchronize with an address book, although that might be via your computer, not sure.

Regarding last screen, you had actually said "last screen visited" so that's different than favorites. Some of what you are asking for is accomplishable via the Favorites buttons. Have you used them? They work really well. They don't have icons visible but if you put your finger near a button, not actually even touching, you get info about that button on the Onbord Monitor.

NAWOW
06-12-2007, 02:40 AM
I'm a bit confused by what Jspira has just said. Favorites? Put your finger over the button? What button? What Favorites?

I'm still new to iDrive so forgive my ignorance. I though I had started to get it figured out and then the dealer went and updated my software. Back to the old "Where the heck is that option again???"

That said, the system is OK. Much better than asking for directions but I make wrong turns anyway. It gives food for thought about what might be possible in the future. Addresses called up to NAV from the phone's address book through VR for instance?

NAWOW
06-12-2007, 02:43 AM
And what's "haptic feedback?" Is that whe the knob resists further movement when there are no more options?

If so, has this feature been removed? Mine is still there after a software update but it might not be the ultimate version...

NAWOW
06-12-2007, 02:51 AM
Got something for iDrivers with Nav to try:

Can you simultaneously have "Map North oriented" on the main screen and "Perspective" view on the helper screen? When I try this it forces both screens to "Perspective" view.

It can also happen with other combinations but this is the one I remember.