PDA

View Full Version : Deciding between 535 and 550? Get the 550!


Roger Sherman
05-24-2007, 08:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I drove both '08 models of 535 and 550.

There is no comparison between the two.

The 550 is a V8 and you can 'feel' the difference: the power!

550 has a commanding heavy feel, accelerates with 'power', while the 535 feel lighter, feels a little less controlled. 535 strains to reach the same speed (even though the 0-60 might be comparable)

The sound of the V8 when it starts is a mean aggressive growl - music to my ears.

If you are deciding between the two, save some extra dough, and go for the 550!
Its worth it.

zen68
05-24-2007, 09:10 PM
550 has a commanding heavy feel, accelerates with 'power', while the 535 feel lighter, feels a little less controlled. 535 strains to reach the same speed (even though the 0-60 might be comparable)

1+ :thumbup:

irobinson
05-25-2007, 12:09 AM
Haven't driven a 535, but there is no replacement for displacement.

And, you are right. That V8 just sounds cool.

epiphone3
05-25-2007, 07:09 AM
I love the 550i, but, there is one caveat to this discussion.... the 535i will have you stopping at the fuel pumps a lot less often! This is part of the decision!

Tio
05-25-2007, 07:16 AM
I love the 550i, but, there is one caveat to this discussion.... the 535i will have you stopping at the fuel pumps a lot less often! This is part of the decision!

I hope not more often than my 645Ci. I looked this morning and saw 12.8 mpg as my average over the last few months.

Russ Williams
05-25-2007, 09:30 AM
If you have enough money to buy a 550i then the 4-5 less mpg really is not going to make that much difference but the performance will make a huge difference. I was thinking about getting an '05 530i but when my broker told me he could get me a 545i for what I was looking to spend, and after driving one, the decision was a no-brainer. My pleasure with this vehicle continues to grow daily and I will be driving it for many years to come. This is my first BMW and I am already hooked for life.

jacksonhunter31
05-25-2007, 10:49 AM
The OP is right--no comparison. The 535 feels light and lithe, modern and refined. The 550, heavy and ponderous, the engine like something from a mid-seventies stock car, lots of noise, little gain in 0-60 or top end...but hey it's just an opinion and to each his own. IMHO the 535 employes the best, most advanced powerplant on the planet--the 550--noise for the boys who need and like that. Not dissimilar to the folks who buy Harleys instead of BMW bikes...:)

Mac Daddy
05-25-2007, 11:14 AM
The OP is right--no comparison. The 535 feels light and lithe, modern and refined. The 550, heavy and ponderous, the engine like something from a mid-seventies stock car, lots of noise, little gain in 0-60 or top end...but hey it's just an opinion and to each his own.

You're right about that -- everyone has their own opinion. Here's mine:

The 535 does feel a little lighter and "tossable", but I strongly disagree that it feels more refined. The N62 engine is very refined (where are you getting "loud"?) and muscular at the same time, and feels like it is exerting less effort than the N54 at similar load levels. There is not a large difference on the "top end", as you say, but the 550 is definitely faster, and moreso as the speeds climb.

I was strongly considering the 535, and would agree that it is the better buy. What sealed it for me was the lack of a manual transmission when I needed the car.

Not dissimilar to the folks who buy Harleys instead of BMW bikes...:)

I realize that there is some hyperbole going on here, but that is a truly absurd comparison.

Vitacura
05-25-2007, 12:34 PM
I am also trying to decide between the 535i or the 550i. The price difference between the two is about 12k after I configured them the way I want to. I drove them both and like them both, but do not regret having to stay with the 535i due to my budget. Very nice ride!

ANZAC_1915
05-25-2007, 12:44 PM
I found the engine note of the 550 to be apologetic at best. The 550 seemed strong at highway speeds but off the mark the 535 seemed sharper. In terms of "oh wow" throttle response the 535 has it down, of course I have not driven an 08 550 yet but I was not so impressed with the 07. With a better transmission and sport package I might consider it.

casper
05-25-2007, 01:07 PM
The 550, heavy and ponderous, the engine like something from a mid-seventies stock car, lots of noise, little gain in 0-60 or top end...but hey it's just an opinion and to each his own. IMHO the 535 employes the best, most advanced powerplant on the planet--the 550--noise for the boys who need and like that. Not dissimilar to the folks who buy Harleys instead of BMW bikes...:)

Wow!! How wrong can someone be? It is obvious that you have not driven a 550 sport. I understand that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but at least drive one before you give one, don't you think?

Deutschecar
05-25-2007, 01:50 PM
I have one (550i sport) and its exactly what i want it to be. Solid, sporty and luxurious. I was tempted by the 535 (only for the xi factor) and soon there will be some nice mods available which will add some really usable power. The things i happen to really like, some people might not. I like heavy steering, i like road feel, and for my $ the 550 was a great decision (bows). FYI, i have had my car for 1 week (800 miles) and have averaged 18.2 mpg. I was surprised by that #. I dont drive in any way that would warrant "good" mpg numbers, for the record. The one thing i was a tiny bit disappointed in was the exhaust note. Dont get me wrong,its very nice, but not really balsy IMO. But i guess if it was louder, people would say it was TOO loud..right after they complained about the ROUGH ride. Good luck!!

bmwguynj
05-25-2007, 02:30 PM
I previously had an 01 530i & 06 530xi and loved both vehicles. I was a happy camper & enjoyed the quickness of both 6 cylinder cars, however then I was exposed to my brother's 545i and I was enticed by the power and solid feel of that amazing vehicle and thereby spoiled by it.

Since then I have always been longing for a 545 / 550i and finally I made the jump to an 08 550i and I'm even more amazed now.

The 535i is a huge improvement on the previous 530s, however if money is not an object and being practical doesn't matter, the 550i is your dream vehicle.

jacksonhunter31
05-25-2007, 02:45 PM
Wow!! How wrong can someone be? It is obvious that you have not driven a 550 sport. I understand that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but at least drive one before you give one, don't you think?

Wow--an opinion on engines is now "wrong"..how about "I disagree", or "I beg to differ", And I stand by the comments--next year BMW will do something dramatic to the 550, or the 535 will cannibilize sales...people who test drive cars for a living seem to agree as well, I read this after my post this am: (even used the same word--ponderous--I'm feeling a little bit vindicated)

Car and Driver's review: "As torquey as the 550i is, though, it is only marginally quicker than the 535i, and as the road bent deeper into the mountains, we noticed the additional weight in the nose more and more. For all the additional power of the V-8, the overtly sporting nature of the car in six-cylinder guise is spoiled. It feels surprisingly ponderous and much larger than the smaller-engined cars***8212;still a gratifyingly fast and powerful four-door, but no longer a sports sedan.

The twin-turbo inline-six, quite frankly, renders the 550i obsolete, a tool for ignorant status seekers and those with a vendetta against Mother Earth. If that***8217;s the way you feel, though, save yourself $10,000 and just turn on the pump at a gas station and lay the nozzle on the ground. In addition to the inline-six***8217;s better feel and responses at the limit and better fuel economy, the 535i just barely trails the 550i in performance categories that matter on U.S. shores."

But again, it is okay to disagree--spending an extra 10-12k to get a V8 is a viable choice, I didn't make it for some good reasons--and I suspect fewer others will as well with this new engine..

Deutschecar
05-25-2007, 03:09 PM
As an "ignorant status seeker" with a vendetta against Mother Earth, i would clearly feel lost in one of the lesser models......:rolleyes: Oh well, i really like my car... I am sure whatever decision the OP makes will be whats best for him/her.

BMWSTL
05-25-2007, 04:34 PM
Bill Howard of BMWCCA had this to say:

The new six-cylinder engines make a big difference. The 3.0-liter six in the base 528i is indeed powerful, much like the old 535i. The 3.0-liter turbocharged six in the 535i continues to be cat quick, as it is in the 3 Series sedans and coupes, and returns fuel economy on the high side of 20 mph in you don***8217;t punch the throttle too much. The 550i with the same V8 engine as last year adds a bit more power on top of the 535i, but frankly it may not be much and we expect 550i sales will shrink a bit as part of the 5 Series sales pie.

http://www.bmwcca.org/node/8275

Lou

My08535i
05-25-2007, 08:39 PM
Alright, lots of good up and down information about both models.

Now alittle bit about me, I have worked in sales at Richmond BMW for almost 2 years. I have seen so many models come up.

I had an 03 M3 Convertible for 2 years, and then traded it in on an 04 M3 Convertible Laguna Seca Blue over black which I have now had for just over 2 years, and now I am ready for something new. Working at the dealership I have been looking at the 5 series for a while now, but ever since I read about the new 08's coming out I waited for it.

So I drove the 535i and the 550i (also drove an 06 M5 a few times) but on May 11th, I placed my order for a 2008 535i Titanium Silver with Black Lthr and Bamboo Wood with Navigation, Heads Up, Lane Departure Warning, Prem. Sound, Ipod Adapter, Anthracite Headliner, SPORT Automatic Trans. , Prem Pkg, Cold Wthr Pkg, Sport Pkg. , HD Radio, and Comfort Access, I think thats everything. I plan to put on the Aero Kit, and some M6 Wheels.

But since I ordered it, I have constantly thought about switching to a 550i, but after reading that in 2008 an '09 550i will come out with possibly a twin turbo V8, or just an increased HP V8, I deciding I would rather go with the newest Technology engine so when the new 550 motor comes out at least I wont have "the older engine." But everyone has their own opinion there. Secondly MPG is a better in the 535i so that was another supporting factor for me, and Third Price Difference if I can keep $8500-9000 in my pocket and still enjoy my new car, why not?

Today we got in a 2008 550i Sport in Deep Sea Blue Metallic, and in the sun that color was hott!! Kinda looked like interlagos blue, with the aero kit, kinda looked like an M5. I am now thinking about switching my color to DS Blue.

Below I will post pics of my current M3, and pics of the new 550i in DS Blue. My name is DJ and it was nice to have met all of you, If you need some help of have questions let me know, and I'll do my best to answer them.

PalmTreeMD
05-26-2007, 04:04 AM
So I drove the 535i and the 550i (also drove an 06 M5 a few times) but on May 11th, I placed my order for a 2008 535i Titanium Silver with Black Lthr and Bamboo Wood with Navigation, Heads Up, Lane Departure Warning, Prem. Sound, Ipod Adapter, Anthracite Headliner, SPORT Automatic Trans. , Prem Pkg, Cold Wthr Pkg, Sport Pkg. , HD Radio, and Comfort Access, I think thats everything. I plan to put on the Aero Kit, and some M6 Wheels.

But since I ordered it, I have constantly thought about switching to a 550i, but after reading that in 2008 an '09 550i will come out with possibly a twin turbo V8, or just an increased HP V8, I deciding I would rather go with the newest Technology engine so when the new 550 motor comes out at least I wont have "the older engine." But everyone has their own opinion there. Secondly MPG is a better in the 535i so that was another supporting factor for me, and Third Price Difference if I can keep $8500-9000 in my pocket and still enjoy my new car, why not?

Today we got in a 2008 550i Sport in Deep Sea Blue Metallic, and in the sun that color was hott!! Kinda looked like interlagos blue, with the aero kit, kinda looked like an M5. I am now thinking about switching my color to DS Blue.


I just ordered a 535 in Deep Sea Blue. I saw the color in my local dealership on a 550 also and it is truly stunning! Taking European Delivey in August. Can't wait!

bimmerturn
05-26-2007, 04:35 AM
there is no replacement for displacement.

And, you are right. That V8 just sounds cool.

+1 :thumbup:

My08535i
05-26-2007, 07:32 AM
A build slot became available and my ordered car got bumped, it goes into production on Monday, and I should have the car mid June, and I switched to color- Deep Sea Blue with Black with Bamboo Trim

casper
05-26-2007, 08:00 AM
Wow--an opinion on engines is now "wrong"..how about "I disagree", or "I beg to differ", And I stand by the comments--next year BMW will do something dramatic to the 550, or the 535 will cannibilize sales...people who test drive cars for a living seem to agree as well, I read this after my post this am: (even used the same word--ponderous--I'm feeling a little bit vindicated)

Car and Driver's review: "As torquey as the 550i is, though, it is only marginally quicker than the 535i, and as the road bent deeper into the mountains, we noticed the additional weight in the nose more and more. For all the additional power of the V-8, the overtly sporting nature of the car in six-cylinder guise is spoiled. It feels surprisingly ponderous and much larger than the smaller-engined cars-still a gratifyingly fast and powerful four-door, but no longer a sports sedan.

The twin-turbo inline-six, quite frankly, renders the 550i obsolete, a tool for ignorant status seekers and those with a vendetta against Mother Earth. If that's the way you feel, though, save yourself $10,000 and just turn on the pump at a gas station and lay the nozzle on the ground. In addition to the inline-six's better feel and responses at the limit and better fuel economy, the 535i just barely trails the 550i in performance categories that matter on U.S. shores."

But again, it is okay to disagree--spending an extra 10-12k to get a V8 is a viable choice, I didn't make it for some good reasons--and I suspect fewer others will as well with this new engine..

On mine the delta in price is only about $8000 on similarly equiped cars, but if you add the aero kit and wheels to the 535 you will be with about $4000 delta, and because I am leasing, the real delta is closer to zero.

I understand that because the 550 i more expensive, some will prefer the 535, but to say that the 535 is better without having driven a 550 ?

bimmerturn
05-26-2007, 10:23 AM
My 550i gives me average 23MPG which is only 2 or 3 miles less than the 535, so the gas mileage is really not a very strong statement for me. If I had to do it again it will be the M5 and then you can start talking about gas mileage. :)

Russ Williams
05-26-2007, 10:43 AM
If you can afford an M5 I really do not think gas mileage is an issue. ;) ;)

petesamprs
05-26-2007, 11:04 AM
On mine the delta in price is only about $8000 on similarly equiped cars, but if you add the aero kit and wheels to the 535 you will be with about $4000 delta, and because I am leasing, the real delta is closer to zero.

I understand that because the 550 i more expensive, some will prefer the 535, but to say that the 535 is better without having driven a 550 ?

I think that's the same conclusion I and others came to in this thread (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205582).

Basically you start out with an $8k difference, but after you make your 535i more 550-like you're only at around $3-4k. And if you're leasing the 550 is the clear winner since that $4-5k difference is out of pocket with a 535 (vs. residualized with a 550) and the 550 lease program is more attractive right now.

iversonm
05-26-2007, 12:55 PM
As an "ignorant status seeker" with a vendetta against Mother Earth....:rolleyes:

The best part of C&D's statement is that they probably fawn over the Hummer H2 in the same isssue.

EddieB
05-26-2007, 01:17 PM
As an "ignorant status seeker" with a vendetta against Mother Earth, i would clearly feel lost in one of the lesser models......:rolleyes: Oh well, i really like my car... I am sure whatever decision the OP makes will be whats best for him/her.

I can't opine as to whether or not gas guzzlers are a vendetta against Mother Earth--but how truly reliable are BMW V-8s? It seems to me their forte are the inline sixes and the handling that goes along with that design.

Deutschecar
05-26-2007, 02:22 PM
Lets see, a motor they have been making a while.....a motor they just started making...I feel pretty good about it. I have had gas guzzlers, but 18 mpg in mostly stop and go is ok by me. What is the desired conclusion to this kind of thread? If you dont want a 550...dont buy one..if you want a 535.***** it. I have other cars, and in my world its perfect. Do other peoples' decisions have to be bad in order for you(insert reader) to feel better about the one you make? I get what i like. I knew if i got the 535 i would wait about 5 days before calls to Vishnu would be made. I have modded cars, i wanted a Luxury Speed Sled, and thats what i got.

italia550i
05-26-2007, 04:45 PM
Well I am hoping for the best of both worlds...

I went to my dealer and asked if I could order a 535 Sport (amongst other options) with the M Aero package, 172M wheels, and M5 mirrors and have it all done at the factory and added to the total price of the car for iether purchase or lease options. He said it could be done.

Once the car is delivered and through the breakin period, I'm istalling the Vishnu chip. The net result is a car that is, when compared to a 550:

1. As attractive (even more so with the M5 mirrors)
2. Is faster and quicker by a fair margin
3. Handles better
4. Has better fuel economy (not a real concern of mine)
5. And less than I would pay for a 550

BMWSTL
05-26-2007, 04:57 PM
The net result is a car that is, when compared to a 550:

...
3. Handles better
...


A 550i with ZSP has an M-Sport suspension. The M-aero package is body trim, not suspension upgrades (in the US anyway). What's your basis for concluding that a 535 with 19's that doesn't have the M-Sport suspension will handle better than a 550 ZSP that does?

Did the dealer break down his quote to add the mirrors, 172M wheels and M-Aero kit, and can you share the additional cost?

Lou

italia550i
05-26-2007, 06:12 PM
A 550i with ZSP has an M-Sport suspension. The M-aero package is body trim, not suspension upgrades (in the US anyway). What's your basis for concluding that a 535 with 19's that doesn't have the M-Sport suspension will handle better than a 550 ZSP that does?

Did the dealer break down his quote to add the mirrors, 172M wheels and M-Aero kit, and can you share the additional cost?

Lou

That's true about the suspension, but based on the early reviews and my limited time in both, the 535 did feel more tossable and not as BIG and heavy as the 550. I will probably throw on some aftermarket sport springs as well to the 535 for a few hundered.

Also, my SA said that the sport suspension of the 550 and 535 are the same. I thought they were different as well and the BMW literatue that I have seen inditates that they are so... :dunno: Emission should be able to give us a definitive answer on the differences between the two.

I don't have a quote yet (was supposed to call back yesterday) but I will share once I do.

My08535i
05-26-2007, 06:48 PM
A build slot became available and my ordered car got bumped, it goes into production on Monday, and I should have the car mid June, and I switched to color- Deep Sea Blue with Black with Bamboo Trim

Changed it again, Space Gray on Blk. Final now.

EddieB
05-26-2007, 07:41 PM
, the 535 did feel more tossable and not as BIG and heavy as the 550. I

If you want tossable, stick to a 3er. :)

irobinson
05-26-2007, 08:55 PM
Also, after having owned a few turbo cars, on really hot days they seem to loose a little power. Unless you have a manly intercooler, heat will affect the performance. At least in sometimes hot climates like Southern California.

NA V-8 is not going to feel as, lets say, "sluggish" on a hot day than a turbo car.

JSpira
05-26-2007, 09:33 PM
Well I am hoping for the best of both worlds...

I went to my dealer and asked if I could order a 535 Sport (amongst other options) with the M Aero package, 172M wheels, and M5 mirrors and have it all done at the factory and added to the total price of the car for iether purchase or lease options. He said it could be done.


Not 100% sure about the aero package, but if the wheels you want are not regular options, the only way you can get them is to have the dealer sell you them and credit you a small amount for take-offs. Same for the mirrors. The factory does not do this type of custom work. I'm fairly certain that the aero package is not applied at the factory, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Look on the build site for bmwusa.com. If you can't build it, you can't order it ex factory.

bmwguynj
05-26-2007, 10:04 PM
Well I am hoping for the best of both worlds...

I went to my dealer and asked if I could order a 535 Sport (amongst other options) with the M Aero package, 172M wheels, and M5 mirrors and have it all done at the factory and added to the total price of the car for iether purchase or lease options. He said it could be done.

Once the car is delivered and through the breakin period, I'm istalling the Vishnu chip. The net result is a car that is, when compared to a 550:

1. As attractive (even more so with the M5 mirrors)
2. Is faster and quicker by a fair margin
3. Handles better
4. Has better fuel economy (not a real concern of mine)
5. And less than I would pay for a 550

Why, why, why not just get the 550i Sport? All your aftermarket efforts including adding the OEM Aero Kit is already approaching the 550i price range.

Sure you will have worse gas mileage in a 550i, but like you said in Item#4, you don't care.

Also M5 Mirrors are nice, but they belong on an M5, not a 535i or 550i.

IMHO if the price were close between a fully loaded 535i and a 550i with only some options (at least Sport Package), I'd go for the 550i and sacrifice some of the amenities I would have gotten in a loaded 535i because what it comes down to is the fun factor in driving this magnificent 550i beast.

And lastly if you still want to lease, there is no value in adding aftermarket components to your vehicle and the lease payments for a loaded 535i vs a decently loaded 550i maybe closer than you think.

My08535i
05-26-2007, 10:36 PM
Not 100% sure about the aero package, but if the wheels you want are not regular options, the only way you can get them is to have the dealer sell you them and credit you a small amount for take-offs. Same for the mirrors. The factory does not do this type of custom work. I'm fairly certain that the aero package is not applied at the factory, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Look on the build site for bmwusa.com. If you can't build it, you can't order it ex factory.

The Aero Kit is installed at the port, when the vehicles come off the boat.

juventus
05-26-2007, 10:51 PM
Let me jump in this 535 vs 550 skirmish as well.

I ordered the 535 after having given the 550 serious thought - too expensive for me. I feel that for those who can afford the 550, you can get an M5 for maybe a little extra, for eg. on ebay.

The 550 pales in front of the M5. In other words, the 535 is a whole lot cheaper than the
M5.

Before you guys kick my rear, let be admit that the 550 is a wonderful car.
But the M5..........

SouthBayM5
05-27-2007, 12:06 AM
There is very little difference between a 550 and 535 performance wise. I can say this because I've driven both. That is why they gave the '08 550 M-like body styling for the sport package. They realize that the the 535 is going to cannibalize 550 sales, so they create a gimmick of an 'exclusive' 550 sport package for people that aren't price sensitive and want the 'best.' Personally, I think the 535 is a better power plant, especially for 10-12k less. I just bought my wife a 535xi wagon and we're both loving it. :)

SouthBayM5
05-27-2007, 12:18 AM
Let me jump in this 535 vs 550 skirmish as well.

I ordered the 535 after having given the 550 serious thought - too expensive for me. I feel that for those who can afford the 550, you can get an M5 for maybe a little extra, for eg. on ebay.

The 550 pales in front of the M5. In other words, the 535 is a whole lot cheaper than the
M5.

Before you guys kick my rear, let be admit that the 550 is a wonderful car.
But the M5..........

I agree with this guy. If your going to spend all this extra dough to mod your 550 into a M5 wannabe, you might be better off actually buying an M5 (plus you won't be voiding your warranty with after market mods). If you add up the cost of custom wheels, exhaust, tuning kits, etc., you'll find that you've almost made it to M5 range if you've bought your 550 new. a fully loaded 550 has an MSRP close to $80,000 btw. If you are getting a regular 5 series, stick with the 535, and don't waste your money on a 550. If you can afford a 550, its not much of a stretch to a M5. I bought an M5 and I'm never looking back. There is just no comparison.

juventus
05-27-2007, 12:52 AM
Hey SouthBayM5.

Have you ever driven the pre-LCI e60 525 or 530. How does the 535 compare with them-handlingwise, etc. I had a 2006 Non sport 525. My 535i SP is en route and I've never even test driven one.

SouthBayM5
05-27-2007, 01:13 AM
Hey SouthBayM5.

Have you ever driven the pre-LCI e60 525 or 530. How does the 535 compare with them-handlingwise, etc. I had a 2006 Non sport 525. My 535i SP is en route and I've never even test driven one.

I've driven a pre-LCI 530 wagon as a loaner from the dealer. It didn't have the sport package and I feel like it had more body roll than our 535 wagon. However, you definitely feel the road a little more with the sport rims and tires, but it isn't too bad. Congrats on the new car, you're going to love it! :thumbup:

Roger Sherman
05-27-2007, 07:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0US31KjEbQ

You can almost hear the reviewer drooling about 5.25 minutes into it, and towards the end as well.

BMWSTL
05-27-2007, 08:57 AM
See also the video on the 5-series rally drive. Interesting comments during the test drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev0oMSvR434&mode=user&search=

Lou

JSpira
05-27-2007, 08:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0US31KjEbQ

You can almost hear the reviewer drooling about 5.25 minutes into it, and towards the end as well.
I was waiting for him to get pulled over for speeding in a residential area :eek:

Good video though.

Tanin
05-27-2007, 10:04 AM
There is very little difference between a 550 and 535 performance wise. I can say this because I've driven both. That is why they gave the '08 550 M-like body styling for the sport package. They realize that the the 535 is going to cannibalize 550 sales, so they create a gimmick of an 'exclusive' 550 sport package for people that aren't price sensitive and want the 'best.'


The E60 is also at the end of its life cycle and BMW trickles downs M accessories just before phasing out a model. They have done this for years and nearly every model.

IMO the buyer looking for the 550 will still buy the 550. However, if you are on the fence for whatever reason (ie. $) the engine in the 535 now gives you a very good reason to justify your purchase. Both are great vehicles but they do have a slightly different audience.

Deutschecar
05-27-2007, 10:50 AM
The E60 is also at the end of its life cycle and BMW trickles downs M accessories just before phasing out a model. They have done this for years and nearly every model.

IMO the buyer looking for the 550 will still buy the 550. However, if you are on the fence for whatever reason (ie. $) the engine in the 535 now gives you a very good reason to justify your purchase. Both are great vehicles but they do have a slightly different audience.

Well said. I also think the release of the N54 in the 3 series first was a good thing for 535 buyers as some "adjustments" could be made (oil cooler etc). Whichever someone chooses, they are both a pleasure to drive.

SouthBayM5
05-27-2007, 12:42 PM
Agreed. Both are great cars.

pebblebeachguy
05-27-2007, 01:20 PM
Anything more than $20-25K for a car means you are looking for more than just basic transportation. You're looking for more. You're looking for the finer things in life. If you want the best, the flashship of the 5 series line, get a 550i. If the about $8K difference for the 550i vs the 535 is a big deal to you get the 535. If if it is a really bit deal, get a 528 or a Camry. But don't kid yourself (or try to kid anyone else) that is "just about as good" as a 550i.

SouthBayM5
05-27-2007, 06:28 PM
If you want the best, the flashship of the 5 series line, get a 550i.

Actually.. that would be the M5 dooder. However, I would agree that the 550 is indeed a FLASHship, as in all flash (ie: wannabe M5 body kit) and very little substance for the added cash. ;)

ANZAC_1915
05-27-2007, 06:43 PM
Also, after having owned a few turbo cars, on really hot days they seem to loose a little power. Unless you have a manly intercooler, heat will affect the performance. At least in sometimes hot climates like Southern California.

NA V-8 is not going to feel as, lets say, "sluggish" on a hot day than a turbo car.

Sure, and the V8 will make less power at 5,000 ft elevation. :rolleyes:

In fact, with such small turbos and such low boost pressure, I wouldn't expect the 535 to suffer from the "crap hot air" syndrome as other higher pressure turbo vehicles.

italia550i
05-27-2007, 06:48 PM
Why, why, why not just get the 550i Sport? All your aftermarket efforts including adding the OEM Aero Kit is already approaching the 550i price range.

Sure you will have worse gas mileage in a 550i, but like you said in Item#4, you don't care.

Also M5 Mirrors are nice, but they belong on an M5, not a 535i or 550i.

IMHO if the price were close between a fully loaded 535i and a 550i with only some options (at least Sport Package), I'd go for the 550i and sacrifice some of the amenities I would have gotten in a loaded 535i because what it comes down to is the fun factor in driving this magnificent 550i beast.

And lastly if you still want to lease, there is no value in adding aftermarket components to your vehicle and the lease payments for a loaded 535i vs a decently loaded 550i maybe closer than you think.

Based on what the Vishnu chip does for the 335, the same chip in the 535 will make it considerably faster than the 550. My estimate is at least a half second faster 0-60 than the 550. The fun factor just went WAY UP. :thumbup: That ability to take the car to a completely different level performance wise (with just a simple and modification) is my main reason for leaning toward the 535. Price isn't a real concern for me either

Re. M5 mirrors are not for 550s or 535s... I don't agree with that. I think they are much nicer looking and simply compliment the lines of the car. How can you limit improved aesthetics to one model? Now if we are talking about putting quad tail pipes or an M badge, I would agree with you.

What can I say, I am still on the fence myself... and it looks like I need to clear some things up with my SA regarding the additions I want to do. So, we shall see.

Deutschecar
05-27-2007, 07:24 PM
Sure, and the V8 will make less power at 5,000 ft elevation. :rolleyes:

In fact, with such small turbos and such low boost pressure, I wouldn't expect the 535 to suffer from the "crap hot air" syndrome as other higher pressure turbo vehicles.

Its called heat soak. I cant imagine in "stock" form it should be too much of a problem. Turn up the boost a bit and you could start to, i guess, but only with some reasonably "spirited" driving in a pretty warm climate.

bmwguynj
05-27-2007, 08:32 PM
Based on what the Vishnu chip does for the 335, the same chip in the 535 will make it considerably faster than the 550. My estimate is at least a half second faster 0-60 than the 550. The fun factor just went WAY UP. :thumbup: That ability to take the car to a completely different level performance wise (with just a simple and modification) is my main reason for leaning toward the 535. Price isn't a real concern for me either

Re. M5 mirrors are not for 550s or 535s... I don't agree with that. I think they are much nicer looking and simply compliment the lines of the car. How can you limit improved aesthetics to one model? Now if we are talking about putting quad tail pipes or an M badge, I would agree with you.

What can I say, I am still on the fence myself... and it looks like I need to clear some things up with my SA regarding the additions I want to do. So, we shall see.

I understand and appreciate your enthusiasm, I still believe that since this is not a money issue for you will overall be happier with a 550i.

By the way what will also be the cost for the Vishnu chip and installation and could it possibly void your factory warranty?

bmwguynj
05-27-2007, 08:35 PM
Actually.. that would be the M5 dooder. However, I would agree that the 550 is indeed a FLASHship, as in all flash (ie: wannabe M5 body kit) and very little substance for the added cash. ;)

Ahh another humble M5 owner puts in his 2 cents.....

ANZAC_1915
05-27-2007, 08:37 PM
Its called heat soak. I cant imagine in "stock" form it should be too much of a problem. Turn up the boost a bit and you could start to, i guess, but only with some reasonably "spirited" driving in a pretty warm climate.

No it isn't. Heat soak is heat from the engine itself affecting fuel vaporization, ie affecting cylinder head temps. So you can get heat soak on a naturally aspirated engine too.

Turbos themselves add a lot of heat as they charge the incoming air, which is why intercoolers are used to drop the charge temp before it goes into the engine, otherwise detonation may occur. If the ambient temperature is high enough, without a sufficient temp drop from the intercooler, you can certainly make less power.

Regardless, hot air is not as dense as cold air, so you will always make more power with cold air, whatever the type of engine (turbo or NA).

italia550i
05-27-2007, 08:56 PM
By the way what will also be the cost for the Vishnu chip and installation and could it possibly void your factory warranty?

Should be about $1300, and you install it yourself. When you go to the dealer, you remove it (takes 15-20 minutes) and it is undetectable by the dealer.

My08535i
05-27-2007, 09:35 PM
I would rather wait for dinan to create some mods for the 535.

Deutschecar
05-28-2007, 11:27 AM
No it isn't. Heat soak is heat from the engine itself affecting fuel vaporization, ie affecting cylinder head temps. So you can get heat soak on a naturally aspirated engine too.
).

Maybe this will help you. **Heat Soak**
Heat soak occurs when the intercooler can't shed the heat that it removes from the compressed air of the turbo. On a hot day, the intercooler can, like a sponge, become "soaked" with heat and lose its effectiveness.
Heat soak is one of the major reasons that turbocharged cars tend to run slower when the weather is warm.Common solutions to improve heat soak is the use of a higher-capacity intercooler, or one that's mounted more in-line with the air flow, as in front-mount intercoolers**** Seems car forums are full of people who know.....something, sadly not everything. Hope this helps:) .

Emission
05-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Actually.. that would be the M5 dooder. However, I would agree that the 550 is indeed a FLASHship, as in all flash (ie: wannabe M5 body kit) and very little substance for the added cash. ;)

A bit Pompous.

Personally, I'd take the 550i over the M5.

Every M5 I have driven has been completely unsatisfactory for public roads. The torque curve is wrong, the transmission (SMG) isn't friendly, and the ride isn't pleasant. On the track, I have found the M5 too big to toss, and too fat to fly. About the only reason I could see buying an M5 would be ego.

The 550i has gobs of torque way down low, and the manual transmission is a charm. The ride isn't punishing, and the fuel economy is downright reasonable for the power. The best part is driving around in one with an aerokit, and smiling at people who tell you they like your M5. :thumbup:

EddieB
05-28-2007, 01:01 PM
A bit Pompous.

Personally, I'd take the 550i over the M5.

Every M5 I have driven has been completely unsatisfactory for public roads. :thumbup:

Well if you want handling a 3er is the way to go, but I still say BMW's inline six is the best most reliable engine in their inventory.

irobinson
05-28-2007, 06:23 PM
Sure, and the V8 will make less power at 5,000 ft elevation. :rolleyes:

In fact, with such small turbos and such low boost pressure, I wouldn't expect the 535 to suffer from the "crap hot air" syndrome as other higher pressure turbo vehicles.

Well, since I didn't have a high pressue turbo (an Audi 1.8t, probably about 7psi stock) in my car, I guess that does not apply to me.

Heat is going to affect the how well the intercooler works, especially in places that see 95+ temps all summer.

Sure, at elevation the turbo is going to do better. But at 5000+ ft you are not going to see as much as heat as you do in the lower elevations. And if it was 100+ at 5000ft, heat is still going to have an effect.

ANZAC_1915
05-28-2007, 09:12 PM
Maybe this will help you. **Heat Soak**
Heat soak occurs when the intercooler can't shed the heat that it removes from the compressed air of the turbo. On a hot day, the intercooler can, like a sponge, become "soaked" with heat and lose its effectiveness.
Heat soak is one of the major reasons that turbocharged cars tend to run slower when the weather is warm.Common solutions to improve heat soak is the use of a higher-capacity intercooler, or one that's mounted more in-line with the air flow, as in front-mount intercoolers**** Seems car forums are full of people who know.....something, sadly not everything. Hope this helps:) .

The effect of a high ambient temperature is going to have a bigger effect than any "heat soak", unless the car is sitting stationary for a while. Most intercoolers are located away from the sources of heat from the engine and are designed to have air flowing over them. Heat soak can affect any engine, and no engines like hot air in the intake.

SouthBayM5
05-28-2007, 10:24 PM
A bit Pompous.

Personally, I'd take the 550i over the M5.


Nothing pompous about it bud. No ego, just facts. M5 is top of the line and no aero kit will ever turn a 550 into one. FYI, my comment about the M5 being king was actually responding to this post:

Anything more than $20-25K for a car means you are looking for more than just basic transportation. You're looking for more. You're looking for the finer things in life. If you want the best, the flashship of the 5 series line, get a 550i. If the about $8K difference for the 550i vs the 535 is a big deal to you get the 535. If if it is a really bit deal, get a 528 or a Camry. But don't kid yourself (or try to kid anyone else) that is "just about as good" as a 550i.

This guy was disparaging the 535 with the whole "If you want the best you will get a 550" line of reasoning, so I felt it was appropriate to point out that if you confident enough to claim something as the 'best,' you sure as heck better own the top of the line. Whew.. that was quite a run-on sentence.

Anyway, if you took the time to read the rest of this thread, you see that I have actually been defending the 535, which according to the OP is inferior to the 550. I respectfully disagreed contending that, for the money, the performance difference between the 550 and 535 is negligible at best. This is the reason they gave us the new 'exclusive' aero kit with the 550 sport package, so BMW could create a differentiating factor between two very similar performing cars. That however is not true when we are talking about the performance difference between the M5 and 550; there is an undeniable step-up there.

As a side note, for similar optioned cars, it is about a $10k step between each model. $65k for the 535, $75k for the 550, and $85k for the M5. So if money is no object, as many 550 owners have claimed, then why not buy a M5? It is the comfort! The every day driveability! The M5's torque curve is all wrong, they say. And oh.... by the way... because you own an M5, you're an arrogant prick for even weighing in on this issue. However, it is ok when some 550 owners look down their nose at the 535 owners and laugh (possibly as they toast each other with Krug?), saying smugly, 'If you wanted REAL luxury and REAL performance, you'd buy a 550, filthy peon." I hope the irony isn't lost on everyone...

As was said before, all iterations of the 5 line are GREAT cars. Some serve different purposes than others, but all are top of their class. Just ask me, my wife's baby hauler is the 535xiT and my daily driver is th M5, and I love them both for different reasons. Ok... I'm done. **Get's off of soapbox**
:soapbox:

Emission
05-28-2007, 11:26 PM
As was said before, all iterations of the 5 line are GREAT cars. Some serve different purposes than others, but all are top of their class. Just ask me, my wife's baby hauler is the 535xiT and my daily driver is th M5, and I love them both for different reasons. Ok... I'm done. **Get's off of soapbox**
:soapbox:

Agreed.

I bet few realize that the base 2008 5-Series, the 230-hp 528i, is faster than the top-of-the-line M5 of just two decades ago. Yes, the 1988 M5 was rated 0-60 at 6.7 seconds. The 2008 528i is rated 0-60 in 6.5 seconds!

As you said, "...all iterations of the 5 line are GREAT cars."

There may be just a $10K step between 5-Series models, but the "real-world" jump between the 550i and M5 is significant. While the 550i can be leased for about $900/month, the M5 will cost you about $1400 per month. There are aggressive lease programs on the 550i that are not carried to the M-cars.

SouthBayM5
05-28-2007, 11:48 PM
Agreed.

I bet few realize that the base 2008 5-Series, the 230-hp 528i, is faster than the top-of-the-line M5 of just two decades ago. Yes, the 1988 M5 was rated 0-60 at 6.7 seconds. The 2008 528i is rated 0-60 in 6.5 seconds!

We talk about this all the time at our office (a bunch of car guys). I believe that we are literally witnessing the second, and possibly final, pinnacle of the internal combustion motor (the last being the late 1960's to early 1970's). The sheer amount of cars out there, with stunning performance, boggles the mind. I remember when 230 hp was a god awful amount of power. I remember DROOLING a the 1990 850i, which put out 300hp. THAT was the top of the BMW line. Period. Now, people don't bat an eyelash at the 300 hp that the 335 is putting out. I was explaining how monumental the new bi-turbo motor is to a layman, and you know what answer I got? Well isn't that just a regular 3-series, I mean it isn't an M3 right? I wanted to beat the guy over the head with a wiffle bat, and explain the nuances of automotive evolution, and how this is one of the most efficient and technologically advanced consumer motors ever built. We really have become spoiled.

jcflys
05-29-2007, 01:40 AM
I came up with a 25K plus difference between the M5 and a 550i. I would also spend another 15K on mods for the M5, plus higher insurance rates. I do love the current M5, but as a daily driver the cost difference and depreciation of the M5 just didnt make sense for my needs. I only drive short hops of several miles or less which are not what the M5 was really meant for.

I do like that the new 550i has some great new lines and will fit my driving style very nicely. I may have to switch to an M5 when the new body style comes out and all the kinks are worked out.

SouthBayM5
05-29-2007, 02:01 AM
I came up with a 25K plus difference between the M5 and a 550i.

My qualification was that they were similarly loaded out. The difference is much less then. Granted, if you a buy a 550 with zero options, the difference is much more. Here is a fully loaded 550 and an M5 with everything but full leather (because that option isn't available on the 550). Difference is more like $10k, maybe w/ gas guzzler and tax it is $15k. I have to admit, those new sport rims are pretty bitchin on the 550.

http://blogdule.com/550.jpg
http://blogdule.com/M5.jpg

Roger Sherman
05-29-2007, 09:00 AM
I agree that all the 5 series models are Great cars - Superb handling.

At the same time, I believe you get what you pay for.
IMHO, 535 has better performance than 528, 550 has better performance than 535, and M5 has better performance than 550.

I am upgrading from a 525 and want to make a big jump.
I did not feel that another V6 (535) was a big enough of a jump for me.
I test drove both the 535 and 550, and I could definitely see a significant difference for me which was enough to justify spending the additional cash. After driving both the models, if someone cannot feel the difference, or it is not big enough for them, they should save their money and buy the 535.

Even though I did not test drive the M5, I am sure it will feel better than the 550. However I am not willing to pay for the M5-to-550 price differential for the performance I need at this point.

When the new models come out in 2011, I will consider the M5 at that time.

At this point, I feel I have made a good choice going from 525 to 550.

JSpira
05-29-2007, 09:06 AM
All good points, ahem, except that BMW has never made a V6.

I agree that all the 5 series models are Great cars - Superb handling.

At the same time, I believe you get what you pay for.
IMHO, 535 has better performance than 528, 550 has better performance than 535, and M5 has better performance than 550.

I am upgrading from a 525 and want to make a big jump.
I did not feel that another V6 (535) was a big enough of a jump for me.
I test drove both the 535 and 550, and I could definitely see a significant difference for me which was enough to justify spending the additional cash. After driving both the models, if someone cannot feel the difference, or it is not big enough for them, they should save their money and buy the 535.

Even though I did not test drive the M5, I am sure it will feel better than the 550. However I am not willing to pay for the M5-to-550 price differential for the performance I need at this point.

When the new models come out in 2011, I will consider the M5 at that time.

At this point, I feel I have made a good choice going from 525 to 550.

chuck92103
05-29-2007, 09:09 AM
All good points, ahem, except that BMW has never made a V6.

:rofl:

mdreiling
05-29-2007, 09:16 AM
The price difference between the 550i and M5 becomes even greater when you factor in the real world price discounts associated with a 550i Euro delivery which is not available to M5 buyers.

Functionality wise, if you want an automatic transmission, you can get one (or sport auto) in a 550i, in a M5, you're out of luck.

Tanin
05-29-2007, 10:50 AM
My qualification was that they were similarly loaded out. The difference is much less then. Granted, if you a buy a 550 with zero options, the difference is much more. Here is a fully loaded 550 and an M5 with everything but full leather (because that option isn't available on the 550). Difference is more like $10k, maybe w/ gas guzzler and tax it is $15k. I have to admit, those new sport rims are pretty bitchin on the 550.

http://blogdule.com/550.jpg
http://blogdule.com/M5.jpg

If you subtract Active Cruise and Night Vision from the 550 (don't believe they are available on the M5) the build for a 550 6sp. and M5 6sp. with that in consideration brought me to @ $74K and $89K. As you stated roughtly $15K. Although, my actual build when I ordered included the full leather ($92,740) ** Not including GGT

The issue isn't MSRP but "actual" purchase price and MF. I leased my vehicle and was able to drive the 550 off the lot with approx. $2,500 out of pocket and under $890 per month. Did I want the M5***8230;***8230;***8230;***8230;***8230;***8230; Absolutely!!!! Was the price difference minimal? Absolutely not!!! BMWFS lease rates for the M cars are silly. My same car with a V10 would have cost me an additional $600 - $700 per month. I could park a 535i in my garage next to my 550 for that price.

Emission
05-29-2007, 10:58 AM
The issue isn't MSRP but "actual" purchase price and MF. I leased my vehicle and was able to drive the 550 off the lot with approx. $2,500 out of pocket and under $890 per month. Did I want the M5......Absolutely!!!! Was the price difference minimal? Absolutely not!!! BMWFS lease rates for the M cars are silly. My same car with a V10 would have cost me an additional $600 - $700 per month. I could park a 535i in my garage next to my 550 for that price.

Not to mention the additional insurance and fuel costs of an M5 over a 550i...

I would imagine the difference between insurance and fuel costs for the 535i vs. 550i would be negligible.

Deutschecar
05-29-2007, 10:59 AM
Well if you want handling a 3er is the way to go, but I still say BMW's inline six is the best most reliable engine in their inventory.

Saw several E92s this weekend..:thumbup: What a beautiful car. That was actually my first choice, but i would have had to wait (i am a child, and have a serious immediate gratification problem) until sometime around Aug/Sep to get what i wanted. Under 100k, one of the nicest packages on the road IMO. $47k and around 2k in mods, and there isnt much on the road you couldnt hang with.

pebblebeachguy
05-29-2007, 02:56 PM
So...it's agreed that everyone's 5 series is the best model for what they want it to be. Everyone is happy and life is good. :)

For a while, I was afraid that there may have been a long winded M5 apologist standing on a soap box with his sensitive feelings hurt. Perhaps the comments hit too close to home.

M6OnTheWay
06-06-2007, 09:40 PM
Not to mention the additional insurance and fuel costs of an M5 over a 550i...

I would imagine the difference between insurance and fuel costs for the 535i vs. 550i would be negligible.

I agree...my 645ci to my 07 M6 insurance went from 3100 to 3700...not even worth mentioning....my mpg are down about 3 mpg...nothing to break the bank...So if you are pushing the budget that much, perhaps you should be reevulate your priorities. Anyway I was an owner of a 540i sport package back in 02...they gave me a 530i with the v8 (my car was in for service) and auto tranny which I could have save a couple of grand over the lease...it was the same damn car except for the speed and the additional badge. I actually questioned my decision when I had the 530...but if you can afford it, it does not mean to go for the more expensive car all the time. I know I loved my 540i but after that I really questioned my decision. Probably a little off topic...but I think the 535i is an incredible buy if money is a major decision. I know I seriously regretted getting my 540i after having it for a year and driving that 530i...But the V8 is always a much nicer than V6, even with turbo.

Russ Williams
06-07-2007, 09:49 AM
$3100 for insurance on a 645ci?? How many accidents/speeding tickets are on your driving record??

mkaresh
06-09-2007, 07:49 AM
The OP is right--no comparison. The 535 feels light and lithe, modern and refined. The 550, heavy and ponderous, the engine like something from a mid-seventies stock car, lots of noise, little gain in 0-60 or top end...but hey it's just an opinion and to each his own. IMHO the 535 employes the best, most advanced powerplant on the planet--the 550--noise for the boys who need and like that. Not dissimilar to the folks who buy Harleys instead of BMW bikes...:)

Interesting that lighter and more tossable for one person is the same as less "commanding" and less controlled for another.

I'd love to test drive both cars with the six-speed manual, but it seems that even BMW dealers are stocking manuals less and less often.

adgrant
06-09-2007, 09:11 AM
The best part of C&D's statement is that they probably fawn over the Hummer H2 in the same isssue.

I doubt that. The H2 is pretty much regarded as a sick joke by almost everyone except the idiots that buy them.

Charles
06-09-2007, 12:50 PM
Turbos themselves add a lot of heat as they charge the incoming air, which is why intercoolers are used to drop the charge temp before it goes into the engine, otherwise detonation may occur. If the ambient temperature is high enough, without a sufficient temp drop from the intercooler, you can certainly make less power.

Regardless, hot air is not as dense as cold air, so you will always make more power with cold air, whatever the type of engine (turbo or NA).

Thats why we have spray bars to cool them down.
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/dei-080130_w.jpg

jumpinjoe
06-09-2007, 01:20 PM
There are reports of the 335i running hot. I think part of the problem is the small intercooler used, which is insufficent for hard driving conditions. This becomes more evident when the car is chipped. Many owners will go for this upgrade, at only about $1,000 cost. The enigne should be reliable, but will require more frequent oil changes, maybe every 4,000 to 5,000 miles with synthetic. With increased power, there is more wear on the car, and warranty could become an issue. You have to expect to pay to play :>)

adgrant
06-09-2007, 03:01 PM
There are reports of the 335i running hot. I think part of the problem is the small intercooler used, which is insufficent for hard driving conditions. This becomes more evident when the car is chipped. Many owners will go for this upgrade, at only about $1,000 cost. The enigne should be reliable, but will require more frequent oil changes, maybe every 4,000 to 5,000 miles with synthetic. With increased power, there is more wear on the car, and warranty could become an issue. You have to expect to pay to play :>)

Not if you just lease the car for three years and give it back to BMW.

Emission
06-10-2007, 10:12 AM
There are reports of the 335i running hot. I think part of the problem is the small intercooler used, which is insufficent for hard driving conditions. This becomes more evident when the car is chipped. Many owners will go for this upgrade, at only about $1,000 cost. The enigne should be reliable, but will require more frequent oil changes, maybe every 4,000 to 5,000 miles with synthetic. With increased power, there is more wear on the car, and warranty could become an issue. You have to expect to pay to play :>)

Intercooler temps have very little to do with regards to oil temps. You can have high engine temps, and low intake temps... or low engine temps and high intake temps!

Every intercooler is a compromise. Bigger is better, but bigger costs more, weighs more, and is more air to be compressed when the throttle is pushed (lag). The intercooler on the 335i is just fine for stock.

LarryCOS
03-04-2014, 06:29 PM
I live at over 6,000 feet and drive to over 10,000 feet every weekend. My tuned 535 will walk away from 550's in this case. I tested both in my area and the 535 won. I have an '08 535xi with AR down pipes, afe resh air and a Cobb Sport Tune Stage 2.

schpenxel
03-04-2014, 07:06 PM
6 year old thread... Good job

EddieB
03-04-2014, 07:08 PM
6 year old thread... Good job

lol

535i_Biturbo
03-04-2014, 08:58 PM
chip a 535 and it's nighty night 550

damacho
08-25-2014, 02:18 PM
couldn't agree more with you. The 550's have more engine issues, higher gas consumption, faster yes but not by much and don't feel nearly as nice as the e60 535's in my opinion. They're stiff and feell more like a sports car where the 535 gives you both power and comfort!

flipwils11
08-26-2014, 05:20 AM
6 year old thread... Good job

Fantastic, :rofl: so true. Is this a ploy to get a higher post count?