Good Morning Bimmerfest !! [Archive] - bimmerfest

Artslinger

02-12-2003, 05:31 AM

I guess the hood opening including the kidney grills is a thing of the past... bummer. The slopping front end makes the car look less aggressive. What is with the high rear end on all the new cars lately, I hate it. The mirrors look better then the current ones. Over all not to bad looking... for a PS picture.

Guest84

02-12-2003, 05:33 AM

Hmm, I'm reading up above "E60" and "E90"....I'll guess "E69".

JST

02-12-2003, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Alex Baumann
Good Morning valuable members of the Fest. Here's something for you to get a little amused :D

http://bilder.autobild.de/bilder/1/29373.jpg

OK, now I need bets, Which model is this ?
:p

Can anyone fairly tell me that the above car looks better than this?

http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2003/01/05/WKA2003010551993_pv.jpg

operknockity

02-12-2003, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by Artslinger
I guess the hood opening including the kidney grills is a thing of the past... bummer. The slopping front end makes the car look less aggressive. What is with the high rear end on all the new cars lately, I hate it.
I like the grill built in to the hood better too. The hood line across the front end over the grill really breaks up the lines of the car.

The high read end is becoming more and more common and I've sorta gotten used to it already.

bren

02-12-2003, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by JST
Can anyone fairly tell me that the above car looks better than this?

http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2003/01/05/WKA2003010551993_pv.jpg

That is tough to say...since we are looking at them from different angles.

The greenhouse on that reminds me of an Intrepid. What is it?

in_d_haus

02-12-2003, 06:27 AM

I've seen that pic Alex...it's the new Pontiac Sunfire!

JST

02-12-2003, 06:27 AM

Originally posted by bren
That is tough to say...since we are looking at them from different angles.

The greenhouse on that reminds me of an Intrepid. What is it?

Pontiac G6, or a thinly veiled version of the next Grand Am.

EDIT: Here is the front:

http://osx.wieck.com/pv/WKA/2003/01/05/WKA2003010551976_pv.jpg

WRS

02-12-2003, 06:36 AM

E46 replacement!:dunno:

02-12-2003, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by JST
Pontiac G6, or a thinly veiled version of the next Grand Am.

I never thought we'd see the day. A Grand Am looks infinitely better than a 3 series. :tsk:

Zaphod

02-12-2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by TD
I never thought we'd see the day. A Grand Am looks infinitely better than a 3 series. :tsk:

I really like the look of the car, but, I'm sure it will be FWD with pushrods and crappy interior materials.

It's kind of frustrating how GM can get so close to a decent car and blow it completely in the details. Everyone that was looking at the Solstice at last years International Auto Show in NY was drooling over it. I doubt it has even a remote chance of being built anywhere near what the concept car looks like. :(

Artslinger

02-12-2003, 06:48 AM

Whatever Pontiac that is a picture of... be realistic it will never look that good when in production. And you will have crappy Pontiac mechanicals and build quality.

JST

02-12-2003, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Artslinger
Whatever Pontiac that is a picture of... be realistic it will never look that good when in production. And you will have crappy Pontiac mechanicals and build quality.

Well, yeah. I'm certainly not suggesting that the next Grand Am is a realistic alternative to the next 3 series. I'm just saying that it will look better, which in its own way is kind of sad.

And even if the Pontiac that is produced doesn't look 50 percent as good as the show car, what was the last good looking BMW show car? The X coupe? Please. The only thing we've been able to say about BMWs recently is "hopefully it won't look as bad as that when it's built."

Sigh.

02-12-2003, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Zaphod
I really like the look of the car, but, I'm sure it will be FWD with pushrods and crappy interior materials.

It's kind of frustrating how GM can get so close to a decent car and blow it completely in the details. Everyone that was looking at the Solstice at last years International Auto Show in NY was drooling over it. I doubt it has even a remote chance of being built anywhere near what the concept car looks like. :(

Actually, one word (a name actually) suggests that things might actually be different now at GM- LUTZ.

As in Bob Lutz.

I expect there to be far better products coming out of GM soon, both in design and quality. Lutz is a car guy and if you look at what he's done so far (he commissioned the Soltice and is responsible for the GTO), he's earned the benefit of th3e doubt, IMO.

Remember, this is the same Bob Lutz who was appointed as the first president of BMW Motorsport GmbH when it was spun off from BMW back in 1972.

SteveMD

02-12-2003, 07:16 AM

This gets worse and worse. :cry: Before anyone forgets how handsome and purposeful sedans used to look:

Jaguar Mark II (http://www.vicarage-jaguar.com/history.html) :drink:

JST

02-12-2003, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by TD
Actually, one word (a name actually) suggests that things might actually be different now at GM- LUTZ.

As in Bob Lutz.

I expect there to be far better products coming out of GM soon, both in design and quality. Lutz is a car guy and if you look at what he's done so far (he commissioned the Soltice and is responsible for the GTO), he's earned the benefit of th3e doubt, IMO.

Remember, this is the same Bob Lutz who was appointed as the first president of BMW Motorsport GmbH when it was spun off from BMW back in 1972.

Yes, but lest we forget, he is also the same Lutz that championed bringing European Fords to the United States and calling them Merkurs. He is a car guy, but his business sense is not infallible.

Still and all, I agree that the products coming out of GM will improve under Lutz's tutelage, even if he missteps here and there. Even some of the new GM products initiated before he came on board (CTS and now especially the SRX) look very good compared to their rivals.

Zaphod

02-12-2003, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by TD
Actually, one word (a name actually) suggests that things might actually be different now at GM- LUTZ.

As in Bob Lutz.

I expect there to be far better products coming out of GM soon, both in design and quality. Lutz is a car guy and if you look at what he's done so far (he commissioned the Soltice and is responsible for the GTO), he's earned the benefit of th3e doubt, IMO.

Remember, this is the same Bob Lutz who was appointed as the first president of BMW Motorsport GmbH when it was spun off from BMW back in 1972.

I have no doubt that Lutz will be a powerful force at GM - the GTO is a clear example.

However, that car existed in Australia. GM's downfall over the last 30 years is letting the bean counters determine what goes out the door on a new ground up design. If he can get around that (and that may not be easy) and bring GM into the 21st century as far as materials and drivetrain engineering I might consider looking at GM again.

I know I sound cynical, but, I'm reading "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors" right now and it's unbelieveable the crap that DeLorean had to put up with. Hmm, DeLorean did the GTO too!

02-12-2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by JST
Yes, but lest we forget, he is also the same Lutz that championed bringing European Fords to the United States and calling them Merkurs. He is a car guy, but his business sense is not infallible.

Still and all, I agree that the products coming out of GM will improve under Lutz's tutelage, even if he missteps here and there. Even some of the new GM products initiated before he came on board (CTS and now especially the SRX) look very good compared to their rivals.

Personally, I think the Merkur idea was good in theory but executed extremely poorly.

You've got a product that already exists in a segment that is taking off (smaller Euro sedans with road feel), why not try to sell it. IMO, it failed because they were given a stupid name and then were sold along side Mercurys which, at that time, consisted of EXTREMELY fuddy-duddy products (the Grand Marquis, a Ford Escort clone and the Topaz). Give them a stand alone brand name and even sell them along side Fords (rather than Mercurys) and it might have worked.

Oh, and kill the two-tiered wing.

Alex Baumann

02-12-2003, 08:08 AM

OK, I'm back :)

Yup, that is supposed to be one of the first CG images of the upcoming E90.

The magazine is coming out tomorrow, I'll scan the rest of the images , if there's any.

Maybe I won't :eek:

:D

F1Crazy

02-12-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Alex Baumann
Maybe I won't :eek:

:D

Hey, no joking here, this is serious business!:nono:
Don't make me do that:slap:

:D :D :D

Alex Baumann

02-12-2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by F1Crazy
Hey, no joking here, this is serious business!:nono:
Don't make me do that:slap:

:D :D :D

Hehe, OK, OK, I know I have a responsibility here :D

JST

02-12-2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by TD
Personally, I think the Merkur idea was good in theory but executed extremely poorly.

You've got a product that already exists in a segment that is taking off (smaller Euro sedans with road feel), why not try to sell it. IMO, it failed because they were given a stupid name and then were sold along side Mercurys which, at that time, consisted of EXTREMELY fuddy-duddy products (the Grand Marquis, a Ford Escort clone and the Topaz). Give them a stand alone brand name and even sell them along side Fords (rather than Mercurys) and it might have worked.

Oh, and kill the two-tiered wing.

My family, being Fordites, had a Scorpio and an XR4Ti, too, for a little while. Both were excellent products, although the build quality and powertrains on each were substandard.

You are correct about the marketing. Merkur was a dumb name, and LM dealers didn't (and still don't) sell performance cars very well (go in and talk about an LS and you'll see what I mean).

The question for Lutz is whether Cadillac dealers will do any better. The CTS and the entire new range of Cadillac products are quite a departure from the traditional de Ville set; can someone with plaid pants, a white belt and white shoes sell a car that was developed on the Nurburgring (or even pronounce Nurburgring)? Time will tell.

02-12-2003, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by JST
My family, being Fordites, had a Scorpio and an XR4Ti, too, for a little while. Both were excellent products, although the build quality and powertrains on each were substandard.

You are correct about the marketing. Merkur was a dumb name, and LM dealers didn't (and still don't) sell performance cars very well (go in and talk about an LS and you'll see what I mean).

The question for Lutz is whether Cadillac dealers will do any better. The CTS and the entire new range of Cadillac products are quite a departure from the traditional de Ville set; can someone with plaid pants, a white belt and white shoes sell a car that was developed on the Nurburgring (or even pronounce Nurburgring)? Time will tell.

Which hints at an idea I was vaguely alluding to in my prior post-

These Euro-like products might be best marketed under an entrirely new brand rather than attempt to change the associated image of an existing brand.

To most people under 50, Cadillac sedans are seen as what you drive prior to getting your chauffered ride in a Cadillac "station wagon" (hearse). It's seen as something for the geriatric set that can afford better than simple a Grand Marquis.

Plaz

02-12-2003, 08:51 AM

I like 'em both. :dunno:

The HACK

02-12-2003, 09:07 AM

Looks good. I like it. When can I put down a deposite for it Jon? :thumbup:

Seriously, Bangle's team can come up with a car shaped just like an Austin Martin Vanguish with traditional BMW design elements and everyone here will be jumping all over it. :dunno:

Lemmings. :angel:

F1Crazy

02-12-2003, 09:09 AM

Funny thing about Cadillac and Japanese luxo brand dealers is that whenever you go there and start looking at their sports sedans they will imediately point out that their car is to beat BMW. When you ask what makes the car superior to bimmer thay'll point out to trunk space, back seat, bigger displacement engine and other things that mean nothing to enthusiasts, primary sports sedan buyers. Fact is that this market segment is on the rise and everybody wants a piece of it but it means complete product and they are not prepared.

Edit: Sorry for stealing the thread, just my thoughts.

I like it! Final design may be good.

Alex Baumann

02-12-2003, 09:14 AM

Bangle was complaining about the designs of the last generation BMWs 'Same sausage, different length' was a phrase which we laughed at.

But, when I look at the E65 and the latest (even masked) pictures of the E60, they are looking pretty similar to me. Large kidneys, big headlights, second trunk line on the rear fender etc.

I thought they wanted to differentiate the models, even in the same model range.

:dunno:

Masskrug

02-12-2003, 09:55 AM

It doesn't seem that there is any cohesiveness of design coming out of BMW these days.

All the new designs are very uncomfortable. They do not rest easy on the eyes either immediately or later. This is on purpose? For what? Same answer as to why a dog licks his balls?

JST

02-12-2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by The HACK
Looks good. I like it. When can I put down a deposite for it Jon? :thumbup:

Seriously, Bangle's team can come up with a car shaped just like an Austin Martin Vanguish with traditional BMW design elements and everyone here will be jumping all over it. :dunno:

Lemmings. :angel:

Of course that's a ridiculous charge. I dislike Bangle's designs because they are ugly, not because of their provenance. I believe that I have posted that the E60 is actually a pretty nice looking design, and that it belies the contention that the E65 is as ugly as it is for "functional" reasons.

As much as I dislike SUVs, I actually also think the E53 is one of the best looking of the group.

So I am not a "lemming." I'm just someone who likes cars that don't make me want to vomit.

rwg

02-12-2003, 01:39 PM

To expand a little bit on what Hack said, would someone please explain to me what is so Banglified and wrong with this car? Sure, it has eye brows and a different headlight treatment. Other than that, what we can see is an evolutionary change to the current 3 series. Yes, I know we can't see the trunk. But, we can't see the trunk, so you can't tell me that's why you are calling it ugly.

You think the grand am looks better than your current 3? I don't see that the car in the pic is all that much different.

It's depressing. I think we could put a link up that didn't work, claim it was a new BMW, and people would be claiming they could see it and it was ugly.

Masskrug

02-12-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by rwg
To expand a little bit on what Hack said, would someone please explain to me what is so Banglified and wrong with this car? Sure, it has eye brows and a different headlight treatment. Other than that, what we can see is an evolutionary change to the current 3 series. Yes, I know we can't see the trunk. But, we can't see the trunk, so you can't tell me that's why you are calling it ugly.

You think the grand am looks better than your current 3? I don't see that the car in the pic is all that much different.

It's depressing. I think we could put a link up that didn't work, claim it was a new BMW, and people would be claiming they could see it and it was ugly.

My ugly may be your pretty. You like the huge slab sides? The odd shaped headlights with all divergent angles? The tiny anal fogs? The Mustang front fascia?

BTW the new pontiac concept was at the NAIAS and I saw it in the flesh. It looks very good. (forget about extrapolated the drive part).