'Performance hybrid' designation fading from usage

[hts]

This has been so frustrating for me. As a current potential buyer of a hybrid cross-over, I've become increasingly more PO'd by the fact that most available hybrids today (with one or two notable exceptions) are really more about performance then maximizing fuel efficiency. It's ridiculous. I'd gladly give up superior performance over a gas-only engine in order to get 35 mpg real-world. I think Ford/Mercury/Mazda gets it with their Escape/Mariner/Tribute, but I'm not sure any other SUV/cross-over manufacturer has gotten the message yet.

We're pretty much back to square one again--Honda CR-V, although I will take a look at the all-new Nissan Murano when it arrives next month, and I'm also interested to see if VW brings their new common rail diesel in the Tiguran when it's released in late 2008.

:mad:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-12-25-hybrid-marketing_N.htm

Automakers are starting to turn away from the notion of the "performance hybrid," the term coined to market gas-electric vehicles based on extra pep instead of fuel thriftiness.
Instead of just emphasizing performance, Toyota's (TM) luxury Lexus division plans to hawk its high-end hybrid vehicles as being better for the environment because they pollute less than rival brands.

Each of three Lexus hybrids only achieve one or two miles more per gallon than their comparable non-hybrid versions. The $104,000 Lexus LS 600h L super-luxury sedan gets 21 miles a gallon in combined city/highway driving, the $41,180 RX 400h SUV achieves 25 mpg, and the $54,900 GS 450h sedan merits 23 mpg.

[Ugly Bear]

Each of three Lexus hybrids only achieve one or two miles more per gallon than their comparable non-hybrid versions. The $104,000 Lexus LS 600h L super-luxury sedan gets 21 miles a gallon in combined city/highway driving, the $41,180 RX 400h SUV achieves 25 mpg, and the $54,900 GS 450h sedan merits 23 mpg.

Try to be realistic. No, really :) Technology is not that advanced yet. Only small hybrid as Prius will yield 35mpg+. Trust me - I owned one. It only produces 47+ if it is warm outside, you are a sole person in the car and you drive Prius like your grandma or "Prius people". Otherwise it is 35-40mpg car.

Now, if you want luxury car with AWD, I'd rather have 400h with 25mpg than, say, Infinity FX with 16mpg. Yeah, this is not 35, but there is no technilogy which would give you 35mpg in RX type SUV. Simply put, what is in the Prius only works in small cars: CVT + synergy drive. It cannot withstand loads and weight of a bigger car. That's why RX is different with electric motors driving AWD.

I can perhaps agree with having Camry 4-banger + hybrid in RX could produce 28-30mpg. On the other hand, maybe not - Camry is lighter car with no AWD, so Camry's drivetrain may not apply.

Here is my take: I am done with Prius, 40 mpg was good, but I want luxury car. Having said that, I will be happy to get hybrid BMW with 528/530-class dynamics and 28-30mpg. I don't need 1.5 liter I4 with CVT in the BMW.

Besides, 21mpg in 600L is 100%+ improvement over similar cars without hybrid drive. I'd rather have 21mpg that 10mpg. In fact, did you know that improving mileage by 2mpg in 10mpg truck saves more gasoline and CO2 than improving Prius from 45 to 50mpg?

[Zaphod]

From what I've read over at VWVortex.com, VW has dropped it's plans for a diesel in the Tiguan (in the US that is). It gets worse, if you want AWD it will have to be an slushbox. Not even DSG, just a plain ol' slushbox. :thumbdwn:

[hts]

From what I've read over at VWVortex.com, VW has dropped it's plans for a diesel in the Tiguan (in the US that is). It gets worse, if you want AWD it will have to be an slushbox. Not even DSG, just a plain ol' slushbox. :thumbdwn:

i'd like to think the guys on vwvortex are just speculating. just because one of them got an email from some no-nuthin VW CSR saying that they don't have any plans to bring the diesel over to the US, doesn't make it so of course.

I would think that a 35+mpg diesel Tiguran (some of those guys are saying it would be 40mpg+ based on European specs) would be very popular in the US. but what do i know?

:dunno:

[hts]

Checked out the new EX35 today--man is that thing TINY!! i predict they'll be giving them away (ie, big cash incentives) within 6 months. Prior to seeing it, I had thought that Infiniti might have a big winner on its hands with this one--now I think they've missed the boat entirely. It's virtually a 2+2.

[SmoothCruise]

I'm hoping Porsche releases their hybrid SUV that can go 75mph on electricity alone (although I'm not sure for how long.)

[Ugly Bear]

I'm hoping Porsche releases their hybrid SUV that can go 75mph on electricity alone (although I'm not sure for how long.)

What is so big deal with that? The battery technology is not that advanced yet to hold enough energy to actually sustain 75mph. I bet the whole thing won't do better than 20-22mpg.

[SmoothCruise]

What is so big deal with that? The battery technology is not that advanced yet to hold enough energy to actually sustain 75mph. I bet the whole thing won't do better than 20-22mpg.

Shrug, just think it's cool. However, battery technology can sustain 75mph speed for a long time, as demonstrated electric sports cars that have been out for the past 4 years.

[Ugly Bear]

Shrug, just think it's cool. However, battery technology can sustain 75mph speed for a long time, as demonstrated electric sports cars that have been out for the past 4 years.

Electric sports car have lithium batteries that hold a lot more change than typical nickel hydride. Problem is, even Tesla has trouble using Li batteries - they simply EXPLODE when overheated (remember all those exploding notebooks stories from the last year). Tesla even has separate A/C unit cooling batteries. Toyota gave up on Li in Prius, next gen will still be using NiH battetries. The whole Prius stack lasts about 2 miles and that's when moving such small and light car. I don't believe Porsche batteries will last more than a few minutes at 75mph. Yeah, they are making claims, but so does every TV commercial. Do you believe in TV commercials? :D

[SmoothCruise]

Electric sports car have lithium batteries that hold a lot more change than typical nickel hydride. Problem is, even Tesla has trouble using Li batteries - they simply EXPLODE when overheated (remember all those exploding notebooks stories from the last year). Tesla even has separate A/C unit cooling batteries. Toyota gave up on Li in Prius, next gen will still be using NiH battetries. The whole Prius stack lasts about 2 miles and that's when moving such small and light car. I don't believe Porsche batteries will last more than a few minutes at 75mph. Yeah, they are making claims, but so does every TV commercial. Do you believe in TV commercials? :D

I'm not talking about the Tesla which haven't been sold and to me is complete vaporware. The Venturi Fetish has been out for 4 years now, and is the first production electric sports car:

http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/4/5/5/2/3/Venturi-Fetish-4.jpg

Will cost you about $400k. Can go upto 100mph and has a range of about 250km.

[Zaphod]

i'd like to think the guys on vwvortex are just speculating. just because one of them got an email from some no-nuthin VW CSR saying that they don't have any plans to bring the diesel over to the US, doesn't make it so of course.

I would think that a 35+mpg diesel Tiguran (some of those guys are saying it would be 40mpg+ based on European specs) would be very popular in the US. but what do i know?

:dunno:

That is exactly my hope too. With a diesel that would be quite a nice vehicle provided that the rattle and squeek gremlins don't show up like they do in many VWs. The auto only for AWD is still a sticking point for me though.

I did see one on a carrier, problably a photo car but the proportions are very nice. Better looking than an X3 IMO.

[Penforhire]

It is kind of sad that the old Honda HX plain gasoline models meet or beat most current hybrids for gas mileage. I know crash standards may have changed but so have available materials (carbon fiber production parts on several cars today) and finite element modeling to reduce weight.

I think they are worried that a small gutless hybrid will not sell well (e.g. Honda Insight). To me, a hybrid that gets less than 50 MPG is PC BS.

[pilotman]

I still don't understand why people are obsessed with hybrids.

They just don't make economic sense.

This math has been done over and over, i think this is how it works.

If you drive 15,000 miles per year, and you get 25mpg, you are using 600 gallons of gas per year, at $2.95 per gallon that is $1,770.

On the other hand, if you drive the same number of miles per year, yet you get 32mpg, you are using 469 gallons of gas, for $1,384.

That is only $386 difference, or a little more than lousy dollar per day.

So you're really not saving a significant amount by getting a hybrid.

Factor in the major price premium for hybrids, and it just isn't worth it, you are in fact LOSING money for the first 5 years or so, and now that the tax credit is rapidly evaporating, there is even less of an incentive.

It is patently obvious that the majority of Americans still don't really care about fuel economy, becuase it only saves them a few hundred dollars a year or so....it is ONE FACTOR to consider, but when you look at your yearly savings, its pretty insignificant, at least for most of us on this board, who aren't at the poverty line.

So, the automakers are focusing on offering performance hybrids....because they are more expensive, it makes more sense to market them as 'luxury/performance'.

it makes people feel good about themselves, but they probably wind up driving more in their hybrid and INCREASING their fuel economy.

It just isn't a major consideration, unless $1 per day is really significant for your budget, and for some people it may be...

Just my take.

So to the OP, why is fuel economy your dominant concern, over driveability, etc. when you are only going to save about a $1 per day?

Is it about the money for you, or are you concerned about the environment, or you just don't want to support OPEC? (Not poking fun, all three are valid answers).

[Ugly Bear]

Is it about the money for you, or are you concerned about the environment, or you just don't want to support OPEC? (Not poking fun, all three are valid answers).

It is about environment first AND money second.

[pilotman]

It is about environment first AND money second.

for me, its about politics.

We could zero out the entire middle east if we could dramatically decrease our dependency on foreign oil.

But that is an entirely separate topic all together.

[blueguydotcom]

No diesel for the Tiguan? Bummer.

[Ugly Bear]

for me, its about politics.

We could zero out the entire middle east if we could dramatically decrease our dependency on foreign oil.

But that is an entirely separate topic all together.

+1

[hts]

for me, the OP, it was mostly about reducing our country's dependence on oil from those <edited, some may have been offended by my terminology> 3rd world states that have us in a stranglehold. unfortunately, as you've so eloquently outlined in your thesis above, when i did the research and ran the numbers, i simply could not justify it economically (i.e., it would cost me way too much to make far too little of a political statement). perhaps hydrogen or electrical (resultant from coal burning utilities, no doubt) is the future, because i'm certainly not seeing it in gas-electric hybrids, at least not for the crossover/suv class we're currently looking at.

:-(

[645ilubu]

Hopefully, the 35mpg mandate will make performance AND economy a reality in the next 5 - 10 years. Nissan and Honda already have plans to bring over diesels for their mid-size cars, which means all the other makes will have to follow suit to get in on the action.

I'd be very tempted by a mid-size diesel.

[blueguydotcom]

I saw a tiguan this weekend at the auto shot. The EX35 too.

The tiguan's got attractive proportions in my eyes. And I love VW interior/exterior design. The prospect of that car with the diesel is attractive to me. They had a Jetta TDI that promised mid 40s city and mid 50s highway. Hell if they can pull off high 30s with a Tiguan TDI, that'd make a livable family car.

EX35 - nose is too long. Interior seems decent but I couldn't stomach dropping 35k on a car like that. I'd rather just ED a 335i if I'm spending in the mid-30s.

FWIW, the new WRX hatch is a different car compared to the old WRX. Really Subaru did a pretty nice job with the vehicle. Still it seemed cheap feeling for 26k.

Saw a Clubman too. The Clubman's an interesting idea but I'd probably not go that route as the 3 doors and the ambulance rear seem odd. just go back to the hatch and 4 doors around.