Poll: How would you prefer to buy your next BMW?

[cozia83]

How would you prefer to buy your next BMW?

[Adumbration]

Interesting article if you live in the US:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...man/ncjf75.htm

[cozia83]

:-( It won't display the article...But I read it on your other post. It makes me sad.

[Adumbration]

I'm confident that the ultimate future of car sales will be for the most part over the internet, just like build and price but with an actual 'buy' button, etc.

But something interesting to consider is how test drives will be facilitated.

I'm wondering if there will be independent test driving centers that are similar to rent-a-car places, but specialize in renting cars just for a day, or a few hours. The idea is that they would have many makes and models, and you can buy a 4 hour pass for perhaps $100, and test drive whatever cars you want during that time.

Not only would being able to test drive back-to-back an Audi, MB, BMW, etc., save a lot of time, but it would make for a better test driving experience since the test drives are really back-to-back.

It may even make sense to rent the car you are zeroing in on at a normal rate for a couple of days to see how you like living with it.

[Adumbration]

Here's the article:

Break the car dealer monopoly

Would you like to buy a car directly from Ford, GM or Honda instead of from a car dealer? Would you like to shop on the Internet and cut out the local middleman? Sorry, you can***8217;t. In almost every state, laws prohibit you from buying a new car from anyone but a franchised dealer. Not satisfied with a government-enforced monopoly on sales of new vehicles, car dealers now are lobbying in some states for monopoly control over parts and service, too.

As a USA TODAY editorial declared on March 17, "Far from wrapping their arms around the Internet, auto dealers continue to see it as a threat to be turned away, by force of law if necessary."

The guys who own car dealerships are so powerful in state politics that the automakers themselves can***8217;t decide how their products are sold. After flirting with the idea of selling directly to customers over the Internet, GM and Ford have now responded to dealer complaints by rejecting the direct-sales approach. And just to demonstrate who***8217;s in the driver***8217;s seat, the two auto giants pledged allegiance last week to the old-fashioned dealers. The firms released letters saying that companies such as CarOrder.com, which is trying to get around the traditional dealer network, won***8217;t be able to serve the customer as well as incumbent car dealers.

It***8217;s a funny country we live in, isn***8217;t it? The Department of Justice is trying to break up Microsoft because the company got millions of consumers to choose Microsoft software. Meanwhile, officials don***8217;t seem to have a problem with state governments forcing consumers to buy from local car dealers. You might wonder, because GM and Ford actually build the cars and provide the warranties, what exactly is the value added by the dealers to justify their tax on your purchases? The fact that they need a government monopoly tells you the answer.

And the fact that they have persuaded state politicians to give them one is amazing. Can you think of anyone with a less sympathetic claim to government assistance? Personally, I don***8217;t think anyone should get special treatment from the government, but car dealers? We kicked unemployed people off the welfare rolls, but we***8217;re giving permanent support to car dealers? I can only imagine their lobbying pitch: "Well, it***8217;s true that we mark up the cars made by someone else; and yes, our financing plans carry higher interest rates than bank loans; and fair enough, our repair services are kind of pricey. But we should get protection from cheaper online competitors because, well ***8230; we***8217;ve talked to our sales managers and we***8217;ll throw in the rustproofing for free!" I***8217;m not saying that every car dealer follows the stereotype. I***8217;m sure there are many who offer honest, valuable service, so they should have nothing to fear from a free market. And consumers definitely deserve a free market.

Overcoming the lobbying power of the dealers won***8217;t be easy, but it can be done. In just about every state and local election, transportation is a big issue, whether you***8217;re talking about building more roads, constructing mass-transit systems or designating car-pool lanes. Whenever you get the chance, tell candidates for state or local office that the most important transportation issue to you is a free market in auto sales. If enough of us tell them to ax the middleman tax, the politicians will start listening.

[cozia83]

Please note: If you are a dealer and get special pricing it's not fair to vote for yourself.

[cozia83]

I'm confident that the ultimate future of car sales will be for the most part over the internet, just like build and price but with an actual 'buy' button, etc.

But something interesting to consider is how test drives will be facilitated.

I'm wondering if there will be independent test driving centers that are similar to rent-a-car places, but specialize in renting cars just for a day, or a few hours. The idea is that they would have many makes and models, and you can buy a 4 hour pass for perhaps $100, and test drive whatever cars you want during that time.

Not only would being able to test drive back-to-back an Audi, MB, BMW, etc., save a lot of time, but it would make for a better test driving experience since the test drives are really back-to-back.

It may even make sense to rent the car you are zeroing in on at a normal rate for a couple of days to see how you like living with it.

You're making a good point. It would be easier than the way the situation is now.

[vern]

Where would you get your car serviced? Good Independents are few in some areas and nobody knows your car as well as the dealers do even though many are very poor in the service area, IMO. I do like the thought of test driving all makes at one locale.
cheers
vern

[Adumbration]

Where would you get your car serviced?

I already view my dealership as simply a service center. I would imagine that the service aspect of dealerships would remain largely unchanged.

But the brick and mortar sales end of dealerships would cease to exist. Instead, BMWNA would manage a software team which maintains bmwusa.com, and a network of high-security parking lots of inventory located in cheap areas along with delivery boys that oversee and manage the lots. Order new online and wait for it to ship, or order from existing inventory and receive the delivery in a few hours.

[cozia83]

I already view my dealership as simply a service center. I would imagine that the service aspect of dealerships would remain largely unchanged.

But the brick and mortar sales end of dealerships would cease to exist. Instead, BMWNA would manage a software team which maintains bmwusa.com, and a network of high-security parking lots of inventory located in cheap areas along with delivery boys that oversee and manage the lots. Order new online and wait for it to ship, or order from existing inventory and receive the delivery in a few hours.

Exactly what I had in mind. And there would be no commissions; the people that work there get paid as secretaries or cashiers, at a fixed rate.

[cozia83]

I'd like to hear some reasons why people actually prefer the traditional dealer. I find it hard to believe that anyone who isn't a dealer himself and gets a special deal on the car would want to put up with all the stress and higher prices that a traditional dealer imposes.

Please either own up that you're a dealer who voted for this, or give us some good reasons that support your position.

[philippek]

I already view my dealership as simply a service center. I would imagine that the service aspect of dealerships would remain largely unchanged.

But the brick and mortar sales end of dealerships would cease to exist. Instead, BMWNA would manage a software team which maintains bmwusa.com, and a network of high-security parking lots of inventory located in cheap areas along with delivery boys that oversee and manage the lots. Order new online and wait for it to ship, or order from existing inventory and receive the delivery in a few hours.

Believe me when I tell that you BMWNA has no desire to deal directly with the end user. They know that is a PITA, and that's why they farm it out to dealerships and oversee the whole process with their CSI system (a flawed system, but the best they have). The system you are proposing would have BMW create a huge a customer service infrastructure, and that is not their core competency. Their core competency is engineering automobiles, and they have wisely decided to leave the down-and-dirty business of selling to local entrepreneurs who know their local marketplace.

[cozia83]

Believe me when I tell that you BMWNA has no desire to deal directly with the end user.

Why do they have ED if they have no desire to sell directly to the end user?

[BMW.Nick]

Why do they have ED if they have no desire to sell directly to the end user?

ED is there as an option for a VERY small percentage of BMW's customers. If BMW sold directly to the public, BELIEVE that you would pay a hell of a lot more than the ED pricing.

In another post you said that BMWs were worth invoice because that is what they sold them to dealers for. Did it ever occur to you that invoice exists because they are not one at a timing, they are selling ALL their cars to dealers?? If BMW sold to the public, the price would be MSRP and there would be NO discounts. And guess what, those ED cars are bought and sold to you by a dealer, not BMW itself.

BMW has no desire to, nor will they ever, sell their cars directly to the public except for the few who want to take advantage of their fantastic ED program.

[cozia83]

If BMW sold to the public, the price would be MSRP and there would be NO discounts.

I very much doubt that the direct price from BMW would be MSRP because dealers get paid on the markup and whatever they're making can thus be discounted from the MSRP price.

But even if it were MSRP, I'd be happier knowing that the full amount was going to a company that provides an actual product that I value and that has incentive to make the buying process as simple and evident as possible. I'm not happy knowing that my hard earned money is going to someone who just walks around with papers all day, and lies to me and tries to confuse me about every aspect of the buying process. That's not a service, that's a crime.

If BMW had fixed prices and salespersons were not paid on commission, I wouldn't mind walking in and paying the full price. BMW deserves that much money, but dealerships don't.

[BMW.Nick]

Wow, were you beaten by a dealer as a child?

You are talking about MANY members of this board when you speak down on dealerships. I understand that you are fresh out of college and ready to take on the world, but you obviously have no real grasp on how the world works yet. Dealerships provide a valid service to the public, whether you like it or not.

BMW dealerships in particular are not scavengers and scum as you seem to think. I don't know what they taught you and your friends at UVA, but you don't go around and generalize an entire profession and call them criminals. That is attack on my character as well as many others. You have read a few things on the internet and now assume that you know more than people who do this every day, when you've proven more than once that you still don't understand how it all works. That's fine, just don't pretend as though you do.

If you don't like dealing with a dealer, buy your cars second hand and be happy, otherwise there IS no other way. Even ED, which you love to throw out in every post, is performed via a dealership.

[cozia83]

Yes, I have had 3 consecutive negative, disgusting experiences with BMW dealers in this month alone. Here's a brief of my story, in case you haven't read it elsewhere:

-They agreed on a bank-negotiated discount only to inflate other numbers, including increasing the MF by more than 0.0004, which I was under the impression that they were not allowed to do

-Lied to us by saying that the 0.00165 MF for December is only for returning customers

I obviously did not do business with them. Instead, I e-mailed another dealer my exact offer, with the full lease calculation. He said that to get that deal, I need to come in and sign the papers. So, I went in. When we got to the dealership, they told us they couldn't make that deal. Again, another lie AND a waste of my time. Then, they tried to tell us that the car tax is going up in our state, which I researched when I got home, and is not the case. Yet another lie.

So forgive me if I have a sour taste regarding your profession. My profession has never given me incentives to lie and deceive people or act in any way that I consider to be unethical.

You can keep thinking that you're providing a valuable service, if it makes you feel better about lying to people all day.

[BMW.Nick]

Yes, I have had 3 consecutive negative, disgusting experiences with BMW dealers in this month alone. Here's a brief of my story, in case you haven't read it elsewhere:

-They agreed on a bank-negotiated discount only to inflate other numbers, including increasing the MF by more than 0.0004, which I was under the impression that they were not allowed to do

-Lied to us by saying that the 0.00165 MF for December is only for returning customers

I obviously did not do business with them. Instead, I e-mailed another dealer my exact offer, with the full lease calculation. He said that to get that deal, I need to come in and sign the papers. So, I went in. When we got to the dealership, they told us they couldn't make that deal. Again, another lie AND a waste of my time. Then, they tried to tell us that the car tax is going up in our state, which I researched when I got home, and is not the case. Yet another lie.

So forgive me if I have a sour taste regarding your profession. My profession has never given me incentives to lie and deceive people or act in any way that I consider to be unethical.

You can keep thinking that you're providing a valuable service, if it makes you feel better about lying to people all day.


You've had a bad run, for sure, but I have just about had it with you calling me a criminal indirectly, and now a liar directly. You don't know me or how I treat my clients, so please, stop assuming. you are the epitome of that old saying about ass-uming.

[cozia83]

You've had a bad run, for sure, but I have just about had it with you calling me a criminal indirectly, and now a liar directly. You don't know me or how I treat my clients, so please, stop assuming. you are the epitome of that old saying about ass-uming.

Like I said before, I apologize to CA's who work with people to get them the best deal possible.

[JW_BMW]

-They agreed on a bank-negotiated discount only to inflate other numbers, including increasing the MF by more than 0.0004, which I was under the impression that they were not allowed to do
They are allowed to add a max of .00040 to the buy rate if they so choose. That is allowed by BMW FS. What rate were they quoting you?


-Lied to us by saying that the 0.00165 MF for December is only for returning customers

If they are not collecting a SD from you up front in the drive offs than you will not receive the .00165 buy rate unless you qualify for OLP.

[cozia83]

They are allowed to add a max of .00040 to the buy rate if they so choose. That is allowed by BMW FS.

Right, but they increased it beyond 0.00040, which I thought they were not allowed to do. They were quoting us 0.00225. They were quoting above what they're allowed by 0.00005, without the SD, but above nonetheless.

If they are not collecting a SD from you up front in the drive offs than you will not receive the .00165 buy rate unless you qualify for OLP.

But I should be given the option to accept or decline the security deposit. They acted like they were doing us a favor, like "oh, and just to be really nice to you, we'll wave this fee." Why would they assume that I wouldn't want to pay money that I would eventually get back, and lower my rate at the same time? They never even asked me, or said anything about the multiple security deposits. They had a chance to be upfront with me, but chose to lie instead by saying it was only for returning customers.

[JW_BMW]

Right, but they increased it beyond 0.00040, which I thought they were not allowed to do. They were quoting us 0.00225. They were quoting above what they're allowed by 0.00005, without the SD, but above nonetheless.



But I should be given the option to accept or decline the security deposit. Why would they assume that I wouldn't want to pay money that I would eventually get back, and lower my rate at the same time? They never even asked me, or said anything about the multiple security deposits. They had a chance to be upfront with me, but chose to lie instead by saying it was only for returning customers.


Accepting the SD will not lower the buy rate any lower then .00165. Not accepting the SD on the other hand will raise the buy rate to .00180.

.00220 would have been the max rate allowed without collecting the SD. Anything higher the contract would not have been funded by BMW FS.

[cozia83]

Accepting the SD will not lower the buy rate any lower then .00165. Not accepting the SD on the other hand will raise the buy rate to .00180.

.00220 would have been the max rate allowed without collecting the SD. Anything higher the contract would not have been funded by BMW FS.

Ok, but that's the rate they quoted us (see my edit in the previous post). When we said that it seemed high, they didn't check their numbers, they didn't recommend that we make a security deposit. They just said "that's the rate."

I wasn't asking for lower than 0.00165. I just wanted that deal, but they said it was only for returning customers.

Another thing that really bugs me is that there's no way to hold them accountable for what they said. I wrote to BMW NA and BMW FS and told them about my experience, but they just said "we're sorry you had a bad experience. We'll pass your comments on to that dealership." But how does that stop them from doing it again?

So, can we agree that they were extremely dishonest with me?

[JW_BMW]

Ok, but that's the rate they quoted us (see my edit in the previous post). When we said that it seemed high, they didn't check their numbers, they didn't recommend that we make a security deposit. They just said "that's the rate."

I wasn't asking for lower than 0.00165. I just wanted that deal, but they said it was only for returning customers.

Another thing that really bugs me is that there's no way to hold them accountable for what they said. I wrote to BMW NA and BMW FS and told them about my experience, but they just said "we're sorry you had a bad experience. We'll pass your comments on to that dealership." But how does that stop them from doing it again?

So, can we agree that they were extremely dishonest with me?

I don't think anybody here has ever disagree with you that the Centers have not been dishonest. It is not fair and turns a fun experience into a nightmare. But, the point was you can't go around calling everybody that works for dealerships out like they are scum of the earth. That is also very unfair.

Keep in mind alot of the information you find online over the web was placed there by CAs.

You should find a board sponsor near you to work with you. That way you will see everything as it should.

[Kzang]

You have to think about this in a business way for BMW or any company out there that sell products.

Its like selling at bulk versus individual sells.

Dealers order ( I am only assuming, cause I don't know the actual numbers ) 30+ cars a month to place in their lots and show room for sales. If BMW sold cars individually they would lose out on profits thus not be able to continue their business.

You have to consider the cost of transporting Cars from Germany to USA. Transporting 30 cars at the same time would be significantly cheaper than transporting 1 car at a time to different locations ( your home ).

There are alot of factors you just don't know about and why BMW in Germany have dealer networks to sell the cars for them.

[JW_BMW]

You have to think about this in a business way for BMW or any company out there that sell products.

Its like selling at bulk versus individual sells.

Dealers order ( I am only assuming, cause I don't know the actual numbers ) 30+ cars a month to place in their lots and show room for sales. If BMW sold cars individually they would lose out on profits thus not be able to continue their business.

You have to consider the cost of transporting Cars from Germany to USA. Transporting 30 cars at the same time would be significantly cheaper than transporting 1 car at a time to different locations ( your home ).

There are alot of factors you just don't know about and why BMW in Germany have dealer networks to sell the cars for them.

30? Try 200+ Think about how much $$ has been invested by the Center to BMW each month. Thats why Centers buy cars below MSRP.

[philippek]

Why do they have ED if they have no desire to sell directly to the end user?

Have you ever done an ED? If you did you'd know that you still need a dealership and a CA for the front end and the back end of that transaction. BMW only deals with you directly for 2-3 hours, and the easiest part of the transaction at that.

[DBville]

Interesting concept, purchasing from BMW directly - But how would I test drive the car? Know that I liked the looks of it in person? That my fat butt actually fit into it? How would I figure out which color I like? Which seat cover feels good? A myriad of questions.

You must have some kind of a dealer or showroom network. Sleep Comfort mattresses are sold without a local warehouse - you go into their showrooms, figure out what you like, and then order to have it delivered to your house. You can assemble it, or they can send someone out. But, I need that showroom!!

I could do without the BS that accompanies many dealers. But, as I have said before, most consumers don't have a clue how to buy a car, and get taken advantage of. They are part of the problem. Dealers are filling a need. Their approach may not suit me, but if not, I'll just keep looking for a dealer until I find one that suits me. I did that with the 335 we just got - and I will do it again.

[cozia83]

I don't think anybody here has ever disagree with you that the Centers have not been dishonest. It is not fair and turns a fun experience into a nightmare. But, the point was you can't go around calling everybody that works for dealerships out like they are scum of the earth. That is also very unfair.

Keep in mind alot of the information you find online over the web was placed there by CAs.

You should find a board sponsor near you to work with you. That way you will see everything as it should.

I realize that I've been making a very negative generalization...but 100% of my experience with BMW dealers has been negative and has fit the "stereotype." Thus, how can I make draw any other conclusion?

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the information on this board. But do the dealers that post here give all this information to their clients that walk in without it? I doubt that they do because then they wouldn't have the upper hand and couldn't get as good of a deal.

One of my qualms with this business is that as soon as a customer walks into a dealership, the information is no longer in his hands. The dealer can claim anything, and there is no way for the customer to check or hold him accountable. Even if we all brought our laptops in and had access to wireless in the dealerships and we brought up this site, what would the dealer say? "Oh, there's a lot of misinformation on the internet."

The other one is that by having CA's be paid on commission, it gives them an incentive to lie to the customer.

If both the clients and the dealers had exactly the same undeniable information, and the dealers were paid a fixed rate instead of on commission, then I think the business would be more fair. Us customers wouldn't feel like prey, and the dealers wouldn't have incentive to lie.

[JW_BMW]

I realize that I've been making a very negative generalization...but 100% of my experience with BMW dealers has been negative and has fit the "stereotype." Thus, how can I make draw any other conclusion?

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the information on this board. But do the dealers that post here give all this information to their clients that walk in without it? I doubt that they do because then they wouldn't have the upper hand and couldn't get as good of a deal.

One of my qualms with this business is that as soon as a customer walks into a dealership, the information is no longer in his hands. The dealer can claim anything, and there is no way for the customer to check or hold him accountable. Even if we all brought our laptops in and had access to wireless in the dealerships and we brought up this site, what would the dealer say? "Oh, there's a lot of misinformation on the internet."

The other one is that by having CA's be paid on commission, it gives them an incentive to lie to the customer.

If both the clients and the dealers had exactly the same undeniable information, and the dealers were paid a fixed rate instead of on commission, then I think the business would be more fair. Us customers wouldn't feel like prey, and the dealers wouldn't have incentive to lie.

Thats 2 dealerships out of over 300.

As most of us have said...we do not disagree with you. Nobody likes being deceived. As with every walk of life, you will walk into some good ones and you will also walk into some bad ones.

I hope for your sake you meet a fair CA and get to work with an up front Center soon.

[ProRail]

Here's the article:

What you have posted appears (from the content) to be not the USA Today article but a commentary centered around the article. This presents a credibility problem.

[Kzang]

30? Try 200+ Think about how much $$ has been invested by the Center to BMW each month. Thats why Centers buy cars below MSRP.

Reading is your friend.. As I said on my previous post

I am only assuming, cause I don't know the actual numbers

[JW_BMW]

Here is the problem about paying a monthly salary instead of using commission CAs.

How much do you pay them? Min wage? $15 an hr? What happens to the CA that sells 20 vehicles a month vs the CA that sells 8 a month. Since its fixed income why would it matter to any CA how many they sell.

Maybe, more dealerships should try the Carmax model? Carmax CAs work on salary + a bonus for every unit they sell.

I agree many of the old bad habits of dealerships need to change. We now live in a very informed society. The old ways of keeping everything in the dark belongs in the dark ages.

As more and more Centers are brought out by corporations, I think we may see a more structured business.

[cozia83]

You have to think about this in a business way for BMW or any company out there that sell products.

Its like selling at bulk versus individual sells.

Dealers order ( I am only assuming, cause I don't know the actual numbers ) 30+ cars a month to place in their lots and show room for sales. If BMW sold cars individually they would lose out on profits thus not be able to continue their business.

You have to consider the cost of transporting Cars from Germany to USA. Transporting 30 cars at the same time would be significantly cheaper than transporting 1 car at a time to different locations ( your home ).

There are alot of factors you just don't know about and why BMW in Germany have dealer networks to sell the cars for them.

You are right, but I don't see why sales would go down if we had a dealer system with fixed pricing and no commissions. They may even increase since a huge headache would be avoided. Even if it were direct online sales, BMW could wait until they had X number of orders before shipping.

I'm just trying to throw out some ideas of how the business could be improved from both ends.

[cozia83]

Here is the problem about paying a monthly salary instead of using commission CAs.

How much do you pay them? Min wage? $15 an hr? What happens to the CA that sells 20 vehicles a month vs the CA that sells 8 a month. Since its fixed income why would it matter to any CA how many they sell.


The CA's should care about how many cars they sell simply because that's their job. Lots of businesses have "Employee of the Month" and other promotions for employees who go above and beyond (you mentioned Carmax). There could also be ratings. Sure, someone only sold 8 cars that month, but all his customers loved working with him, so he is very valuable to the dealership because he helps to support their reputation as customer-oriented.

Obviously, as with any business, people who perform poorly would be fired. If all the salespeople are giving everyone the same price, the ones who don't sell well are the ones who don't treat their customers well, and thus the ones the dealership wouldn't want as employees.

At JPMorgan, we have a quarterly review where the manager goes over 3 areas we exceed in and 3 areas that we can improve in. I want to improve simply because I want to do the best job possible. It gives me personal gratification to know that I am doing a good job.

As for their rate, it should be determined the same way other salaries are determined: cashiers don't do much, so they don't get paid much; engineers provide a service society can't do without, so they get paid a lot. It would all just follow the economic model of supply and demand.

[Kzang]

You are right, but I don't see why sales would go down if we had a dealer system with fixed pricing and no commissions. They may even increase since a huge headache would be avoided. Even if it were direct online sales, BMW could wait until they had X number of orders before shipping.

I'm just trying to throw out some ideas of how the business could be improved from both ends.


It this was the case every export/import company that uses dealers to sell their product would be doing it. US Customs and clearing goods is a big and important process I deal with it everyday at my work. Plus I doubt any single person on this forum will wait for an x amount of cars to be ready for shipment. Just about everyone on here who ordered their cars were counting the days till their car arrived at the port, then to vehicle check point and finally to the dealer.

[Kzang]

Here is the problem about paying a monthly salary instead of using commission CAs.

How much do you pay them? Min wage? $15 an hr? What happens to the CA that sells 20 vehicles a month vs the CA that sells 8 a month. Since its fixed income why would it matter to any CA how many they sell.

Maybe, more dealerships should try the Carmax model? Carmax CAs work on salary + a bonus for every unit they sell.

I agree many of the old bad habits of dealerships need to change. We now live in a very informed society. The old ways of keeping everything in the dark belongs in the dark ages.

As more and more Centers are brought out by corporations, I think we may see a more structured business.

+1 I agree whole heartedly here.

[Adumbration]

What you have posted appears (from the content) to be not the USA Today article but a commentary centered around the article. This presents a credibility problem.

The article that I quoted was written by James Freeman:

James Freeman writes the weekly TechnoPolitics column for Forbes.com. His column appears each Wednesday on USATODAY.com.

Personally, I don't doubt that it is accurate, but it was written in 2000, so I can't be certain what changes to the law have occurred in the last 8 years.

[cosmos]

I think the Internet sales departments (when properly setup like South Bay) is the best way to go. I know I have said it many times, but Philippe K was the best. It was almost too easy and I kept expecting a catch.

All I did was send an email, it was accepted and a few weeks later my car was ready. It was a smooth easy transaction. I was also not the first person to have apprehension and certainly not the first to praise him and send accolades for his top rate attention to detail.

I think the following is the new way of car sales: (please keep in mind this is New Years day and my head is a bit foggy)

You contact a dealer via the web, he sets up a test drive with a "test drive person", and this guy does not sell the car, but sells you ON the car.

You then meet with you sales guy and he sells you the car. If you have an issue it is handled by a QC guy.

All these people make fee's when the car is sold (and on a bonus with a revised CSI rating,) and are happy to do their job and do not look at it as doing you a favor.

These are people that take pride in their demanding, rewarding sales profession and are happy to provide good service to people who work hard to spend their money.

So to recap, I see dealer lots as just a place to compare one vehicle make against another, and the actual sales occurring by competent people like Philippe and others out their who make their job look easy when compared to the vast majority of incompetent idiots who call themselves sales professionals.

So I say keep the dealers, the system will fix itself.

[ToolFan]

It does not help that a lot of dealers stopped paying money on 100% CSI scores. The margins are getting smaller and so the dealership has to make cuts some how. "you get what you paid for" Maybe they should use that quote as a model. If you want to pay invoice, figure everything out for yourself, you just give them money and they give you the keys. Pay MSRP, maybe they will treat you like a king/queen, first in line for serivce, always get a loaner, have some one show you the whole vehicle and how it works. Which would you choose? Just throwing it out there for the heck of it.

[cwsqbm]

I've bought a few vehicles from dealers with a fixed price and no commissions. Its a much better experience than be pounced on when walking into a dealer. The lack of games when its time to finish the deal is a major plus too. I'm all for a fair profit, but in the adversarial system, most dealers seem to push too much and make the experience unpleasant.

[cozia83]

It does not help that a lot of dealers stopped paying money on 100% CSI scores. The margins are getting smaller and so the dealership has to make cuts some how. "you get what you paid for" Maybe they should use that quote as a model. If you want to pay invoice, figure everything out for yourself, you just give them money and they give you the keys. Pay MSRP, maybe they will treat you like a king/queen, first in line for serivce, always get a loaner, have some one show you the whole vehicle and how it works. Which would you choose? Just throwing it out there for the heck of it.

Yes, you get what you pay for, but service for the first 4 years is included in that price, and it's not like a BMW is really that cheap; it's a luxury, so I should be treated like a person in the luxury [car] market. If we just wanted transportation, we'd drive a Kia.

I don't mind figuring everything out myself, in fact, I prefer it because I know I won't cheat myself. The trouble I've had is with the dealers telling me BS like that the 0.00165 MF is only for returning customers.

Now, if the system continues to be the way it is, I think we customers at least need a way to hold the dealers accountable for what they say. Right now, the only thing we can do is walk out, but in tight markets like in the Northern Virginia area, that might mean that we don't get a BMW at all...

In an ideal world, BMWFS would make all their numbers public (exactly how the lease is calculated), the pricing would be fixed, and dealers wouldn't be paid on commission, thus removing any incentive they have to be deceitful. Or, we could order directly online.

[cozia83]

I've bought a few vehicles from dealers with a fixed price and no commissions. Its a much better experience than be pounced on when walking into a dealer. The lack of games when its time to finish the deal is a major plus too. I'm all for a fair profit, but in the adversarial system, most dealers seem to push too much and make the experience unpleasant.

A very enthusiastic +1!!!

[kjboyd]

www.vauxhall.com -- you can ORDER your car online with a discount.
check it out.

[SignHere]

I very much doubt that the direct price from BMW would be MSRP because dealers get paid on the markup and whatever they're making can thus be discounted from the MSRP price.

But even if it were MSRP, I'd be happier knowing that the full amount was going to a company that provides an actual product that I value and that has incentive to make the buying process as simple and evident as possible.

You don't think every direct sales model in use has absorbed all or most of the profit? Look at a typical Saturn dealer versus a Chevy dealer. Look at the CarMax financials, heck just check their prices! Almost all of their non-negotiable prices can be beat by almost any traditional dealer.

If you really wanted a better experience...you'd just pay the price on the window. But you don't, because you want to 'think' you got 'the best deal'. The problem with buying anything with a negotiable price is that you NEVER know if you got 'the best deal'.

[bimmerFUD]

You don't think every direct sales model in use has absorbed all or most of the profit? Look at a typical Saturn dealer versus a Chevy dealer. Look at the CarMax financials, heck just check their prices! Almost all of their non-negotiable prices can be beat by almost any traditional dealer.

Will the traditional dealer beat their price on the first offer they give me? No, I suspect they'll beat it only if I act like a mooch, a-hole, or spend a long time negotiating.

If you really wanted a better experience...you'd just pay the price on the window. But you don't, because you want to 'think' you got 'the best deal'. The problem with buying anything with a negotiable price is that you NEVER know if you got 'the best deal'.

I don't look for the "best" deal, but a "fair" deal. I know mooches and a-holes are getting a great deal, so at the least, I don't want to pay MSRP on a car when there's plenty of inventory. I pay well above what others claim here, but my time and sanity is worth something. But I do think the current sales model sucks.

I like the concept of the Saturn model and wish more manufacturers were following something like it. With BMW, I'm subsidizing the deals cut for mooches, a-holes, the dealer's buddies, or those simply willing to spend long hours negotiating. I'd rather pay more with a fixed price, with the hope that some of it goes into BMW R&D, than subsidize expert negotiators.

I definitely don't think car dealers should have government protection.

[cozia83]

With BMW, I'm subsidizing the deals cut for mooches, a-holes, the dealer's buddies, or those simply willing to spend long hours negotiating. I'd rather pay more with a fixed price, with the hope that some of it goes into BMW R&D, than subsidize expert negotiators.

I definitely don't think car dealers should have government protection.

Amen!

[PressHard]

Ok, but that's the rate they quoted us (see my edit in the previous post). When we said that it seemed high, they didn't check their numbers, they didn't recommend that we make a security deposit. They just said "that's the rate."

I wasn't asking for lower than 0.00165. I just wanted that deal, but they said it was only for returning customers.

Another thing that really bugs me is that there's no way to hold them accountable for what they said. I wrote to BMW NA and BMW FS and told them about my experience, but they just said "we're sorry you had a bad experience. We'll pass your comments on to that dealership." But how does that stop them from doing it again?

So, can we agree that they were extremely dishonest with me?

Quick question, does your financial institution offer a comparable lease? No I didn't think so. Does your bank pay you the same rate of interest on cd's they receive on loans? No, I didn't think so. I have no idea from who or where you bought your car but the salespeople and managers that are working in most BMW centers are the best in the business. Everyone has to make a fair profit. Not to mention that if you are referring to the BMW Loyalty MF discounts, you not only have to be a previous customer, you have to have completed 1/2 of your term.

Next time, avoid the hassle buy a Saturn or a used car from CarMax, they make nothing on the cars they sell.

[cozia83]

Quick question, does your financial institution offer a comparable lease? No I didn't think so. Does your bank pay you the same rate of interest on cd's they receive on loans? No, I didn't think so. I have no idea from who or where you bought your car but the salespeople and managers that are working in most BMW centers are the best in the business. Everyone has to make a fair profit. Not to mention that if you are referring to the BMW Loyalty MF discounts, you not only have to be a previous customer, you have to have completed 1/2 of your term.

The rate the dealership was giving us is equivalent to 5.something, I don't remember exactly what the something is. My bank gives me 4.something%, but if I can get a better deal from BMWFS, shy shouldn't I? The December rate from BMWFS was 3.9, I believe...?

I'm not opposed to the dealership making a profit, but I think it should be upfornt and on the price of the car. Once this price is negotiated, I don't think it's very honest of them to jack up prices in other places and hope I don't notice.

[cozia83]

I'd like to hear some reasons why people actually prefer the traditional dealer. I find it hard to believe that anyone who isn't a dealer himself and gets a special deal on the car would want to put up with all the stress and higher prices that a traditional dealer imposes.

Please either own up that you're a dealer who voted for this, or give us some good reasons that support your position.

I still haven't heard any points in favor of the traditional dealer. Should we assume there are none and that everyone who voted for the 3rd option is in fact a dealer?

[cwsqbm]

You don't think every direct sales model in use has absorbed all or most of the profit? Look at a typical Saturn dealer versus a Chevy dealer. Look at the CarMax financials, heck just check their prices! Almost all of their non-negotiable prices can be beat by almost any traditional dealer.

If you really wanted a better experience...you'd just pay the price on the window. But you don't, because you want to 'think' you got 'the best deal'. The problem with buying anything with a negotiable price is that you NEVER know if you got 'the best deal'.

I bought a Saturn back when they first came out. It was a great experience. No pressure, no hovering by the salesman, no "what will it take to get you in this car today." That phrase usually has me saying some smart ass remark just to piss the guy off, because I know right then I'm not buying from him.

I don't go for the absolute best price - I'm sure I could have saved a $100 or more off my last purchase, but at what effort? The dealer I got for Dodges has its best price on the window. As the owner put it many years ago - "its a fair price. You treat people right when times are good, and they'll come back when times are bad."