PDA

View Full Version : Toyota Rav4


jo-e90
01-02-2008, 09:35 AM
Someone in previous post recommended the Rav4 as an less expensive more reliable alternative to the X3.
Anyone here compared the two?

Andrew*Debbie
01-02-2008, 09:59 AM
We did.

RAV-4 has better predicted reliability.
RAV-4 V6 gets slightly better gas mileage. 2WD 4-cyl RAV-4 gets much better gas mileage, but it is slow.
RAV-4 V6 is faster 0-60. At least when it is lightly loaded.
RAV-4 is a much newer design. X3 is based on a very good, but dated platform.
RAV-4 is available as a 2WD car. (save $$ if you don't need AWD)


X3 drives like a BMW, not an SUV.
X3 has Ultimate Service. No expense for service or any repairs for 4 years / 50K miles
X3 is far faster in real world driving, even though it looses in a drag race.
X3 is a luxury car with a luxury interior. RAV-4 has cloth seats standard...
X3 is available for European Delivery


We took advantage of several different incentive programs. Our X3 wasn't more expensive than a RAV-4 V6 4WD.

Evlengr
01-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Other than the fun of going to Europe (which I love since I was born and lived there) what is the point of ED?

Andrew*Debbie
01-02-2008, 12:56 PM
Other than the fun of going to Europe (which I love since I was born and lived there) what is the point of ED?

You get to drive your X3 in Europe.
Delivery at BMW Welt in Munich.
You get a discount. For a 2008 X3

US POE MSRP $38,000
US POE Invoice $34,960


ED MSRP $35,340
ED Invoice $32,515

All other line items are the same.


Lease residual is based on US POE MSRP no matter where you pick up the car.


If you haven't read my blog take a look. It covers our 2007 ED trip. We picked up our car at the old customer center, not die Welt.

HG132
01-02-2008, 01:53 PM
Andrew*Debbie provided you with some pertinent facts that are very true...although I no diddly about ED.

I suggest you drive the RAV and the X and decide for yourself. Once you drive a BMW there's not really a decision to be made. I don't want to sound condescending, but to compare the X to the RAV is like comparing a porterhouse to a cheese steak.

x3ronnie
01-02-2008, 02:00 PM
Andrew*Debbie provided you with some pertinent facts that are very true...although I no diddly about ED.

I suggest you drive the RAV and the X and decide for yourself. Once you drive a BMW there's not really a decision to be made. I don't want to sound condescending, but to compare the RAV to the X is like comparing a porterhouse to a cheese steak.

I have to agree. The X3 is luxurious and the seat seems to 'cradle' this driver. I feel as if a hand closes around around me when I sit in the driver's seat. I had my '04 X3 in the shop and drove a Highlander for a few days, and the difference was drastic! For comfort the X3 can't be beat. Let me also say that the X3 goes in the snow almost as if the ground were simply wet. Not sure on the Rav4, but if winter handling is a consideration the X3 is very sure footed.

cbj
01-02-2008, 02:01 PM
Other than the fun of going to Europe (which I love since I was born and lived there) what is the point of ED?

Evlengr you disappoint me and did not mention the transmission :) The Rav4 transmission gets good review for its smooth shifting.

HG132
01-02-2008, 02:50 PM
The X3 is luxurious and the seat seems to 'cradle' this driver. I feel as if a hand closes around around me when I sit in the driver's seat.

X3ronnie is right on the money...nothing hugs you like the Bimmer.

Evlengr
01-02-2008, 03:52 PM
You get to drive your X3 in Europe.
Delivery at BMW Welt in Munich.
You get a discount. For a 2008 X3

US POE MSRP $38,000
US POE Invoice $34,960


ED MSRP $35,340
ED Invoice $32,515

All other line items are the same.


Lease residual is based on US POE MSRP no matter where you pick up the car.


If you haven't read my blog take a look. It covers our 2007 ED trip. We picked up our car at the old customer center, not die Welt.

I don't do leases due to average of 15- 20k miles per year. However, still foggy on the ED thing. Aren't there freight charges, import taxes, etc...?

I mean it seems to good to be true. I was born in Switzerland, lived in Austria and know Germany well. What's the catch?

sdbrandon
01-02-2008, 03:56 PM
I would lease a Rav4 until the new X3 comes out. Too many vehicles have leaped frogged passed the X3. It is a great drive, but one needs to look past that to see what you don't get. I don't feel the interior is luxurious at all. It does not even look similar to the 3,5,6 interiors.

I like the exterior of the X3. But cannot see buying a 10 year old design on the inside.

ericbell1
01-02-2008, 04:02 PM
We cross shopped the RAV with the X3 although like an earlier poster said, there was no point in us even driving the RAV after we took a spin in the X3.

The Sales Manager at the BMW dealership where we test drove thought we were ridiculous for even cross shopping the two. I suspect he thought we couldn't afford a new X3 (reason for comparing with a RAV) so he immediately started showing us their '04 CPOs. That was the end of him...

sdbrandon
01-02-2008, 04:07 PM
We cross shopped the RAV with the X3 although like an earlier poster said, there was no point in us even driving the RAV after we took a spin in the X3.

The Sales Manager at the BMW dealership where we test drove thought we were ridiculous for even cross shopping the two. I suspect he thought we couldn't afford a new X3 (reason for comparing with a RAV) so he immediately started showing us their '04 CPOs. That was the end of him...

You gotta love sale folks. His plan worked on you. :rofl: Buy a car out of spite. :thumbup:

Seriously though, the Rav4 is awesome for the money. My neighbor bought one and has about $15k to spare. He said if he was going to spend $40 he could get a loaded MDX.

zznalg
01-02-2008, 04:18 PM
I cross-shopped. The Rav seemed much slower -seat of the pants; the Rav's driver seat was extremely uncomfortable for me; the Rav only comes with an auto box (deal breaker for me).

The X3 is many leagues better as a luxury/sporty vehicle.

X3 Skier
01-02-2008, 04:51 PM
I don't do leases due to average of 15- 20k miles per year. However, still foggy on the ED thing. Aren't there freight charges, import taxes, etc...?

I mean it seems to good to be true. I was born in Switzerland, lived in Austria and know Germany well. What's the catch?

There are NO catches other than the 8 weeks or so it takes to get the car back from Europe. NO EU Taxes, NO Shipping Cost other than the standard delivery charge like in the USA, NO Insurance expense until it gets back to the USA, NO special prep charges.:thumbup:

Just make your deal at your dealer, pick the car/truck up in Munich @ BMW Welt, drive it for up to six months in Europe, drop off in Paris, Munich, Rome, Amsterdam or other major European Cites and get it back with any damage repaired at no cost about 8 weeks later at either your local dealer or the Performance Delivery Center in SC.

Read the ED Wiki in the ED board for lots of info. I did mine in Oct 04 when I picked up my X3 in Munich. Saved lots of bucks which I then blew on a fabulous European vacation in my new wheels.

Cheers

murmur11
01-02-2008, 06:35 PM
I don't do leases due to average of 15- 20k miles per year. However, still foggy on the ED thing. Aren't there freight charges, import taxes, etc...?

I mean it seems to good to be true. I was born in Switzerland, lived in Austria and know Germany well. What's the catch?

I saved well over 3 grand which covers more than our travel expense. However, don't forget the 'experience' side of ED. BMW Welt, Pickup Process, Autobahn, Euro trip with your new ride.... Down side? The wait for redelivery after dropoff is a pain.

MC-X3
01-02-2008, 10:29 PM
I've got a few comments for this thread. The reason for the ED savings (at least from my understanding) is that after you drive the car, BMW is Importing a used vehicle, which costs them fewer dollars. They pass that savings on to us.

On the RAV4 comparisons.
We had an '05 that was special ordered (premium pkg. and manual plus nearly everything elese). This car was my wife's daily driver. After 2 years she could not take the seats anymore. She was in pain after 15 minutes in the car. The seats have very poor back support. The newer model has softer seats, but we don't think they have any better support.

Leg space in the RAV was my main complaint. There is none.

Don't get me wrong, the RAV does have some nice features. The space in back with the rear seats removed is pretty decent. Very sure footed in the snow (we had blizzaks on it for winter).

She moved on to a MINI, and I ended up buying an X3 after test driving them while she was looking for a car.

snb3
01-02-2008, 11:35 PM
I would lease a Rav4 until the new X3 comes out. Too many vehicles have leaped frogged passed the X3. It is a great drive, but one needs to look past that to see what you don't get. I don't feel the interior is luxurious at all. It does not even look similar to the 3,5,6 interiors.

I like the exterior of the X3. But cannot see buying a 10 year old design on the inside.


What small SUV has surpassed the X3???
What don't we get in an X3? I'm not aware of a better driving small SUV.

It is dated but some (me incl) prefer the interiors of this generation of BMWs over the more current.

I wouldn't lease any Toyota. Just buy it outright.

Lance Alot
01-03-2008, 01:10 AM
I apologize if this is getting off topic, but I just got back from ED on an X3. It's a great experience and definetly saves you some money (around $3K in my case), but we spent that in just four nights in Europe. It's very expensive now with the dollar being so weak. Given the current conversion, you'll have a hard time paying for your entire trip unless you just go over to pick up the car and fly right back.

As for the RAV-4, it's not really a luxury SAV like the X3. If you drive them both and look at the interior, I think you'll see what I mean. The RAV-4 is a nice car for the money, but if you're going the luxury route - I think the Acura RDX or Land Rover are better comparisons. If you aren't going luxury, you should also consider the CRV.

X3 Skier
01-03-2008, 03:37 AM
It is dated but some (me incl) prefer the interiors of this generation of BMWs over the more current.

.....including NO iDrive, a major selling point to me! :rolleyes:

Cheers

murmur11
01-03-2008, 05:11 AM
.....including NO iDrive, a major selling point to me! :rolleyes:

Cheers

+1!! :thumbup:

Andrew*Debbie
01-03-2008, 05:30 AM
I've got a few comments for this thread. The reason for the ED savings (at least from my understanding) is that after you drive the car, BMW is Importing a used vehicle, which costs them fewer dollars. They pass that savings on to us.



BMW NA allocates a fixed number of cars to each dealer. ED cars come from outside of the normal dealer allocation. BMW NA does not pay dealers a CSI bonus on an ED car. That bonus is about the same size as the discount. Additionally they don't charge the MACO or training fee. If you are buying at invoice + $xxxx, you don't pay those fees. Since this is an extra sale, some high volume dealers are willing to take a reduced markup too.


Sales price on our 2007 X3 was $35,125.00. Residual of $30,395 was based on US POE MSRP of $39,475.00

Since we are paying rent on less than $5,000, our lease payments are in RAV-4 territory.

We did make a lease payment while the car was on the way back to us.




On the RAV4 comparisons.
We had an '05 that was special ordered (premium pkg. and manual plus nearly everything elese).

Toyota has since updated the RAV-4 to a new and larger car. BMW is still making an X3 that has been on the same platform since '04.

bmwadam
01-03-2008, 07:23 AM
Ok I gotta step up for the e83. Despite the fact that it is based off of the old e46 chasis, it is still an outstanding little sport utte. The e46 chasis was one heck of a setup. I have one hanging around my house that has over 170k on it and it still runs strong. As I have said before, the M54 powertrain has proven itself. Not so with the N52 and new auto crap box they have out right now.

BUT since it is an older design, I would not reccomend buying one new. (But if u do buy one new, dont get nav (it is an outdated POS), and before getting the sport package, test drive one with sport on a VERY bumpy road to see if it fits your driving style.) Pick yourself up a CPO car, 04 or 05. You save over 10 to 12k or more by doing this. Dont worry about miles. If the car has 40k or so (my wifes X3 had 29k and we picked it up for 28 with 2.9% financing for 4 years, with BMWFS making the first 2 payments) chances are all of the kinks have been worked out of it. I have owned 6 BMW's in my life (alltogether my family has owned over 12 of them) and all had in excess of 100k, one was pushing 250k. None of these cars were POS's. I dont buy junk.

As for free maintenance, this is a joke. If you are leasing a car every 3 years then it dosnt matter. BUT if you want to keep a car 6 to 8 years or more, then there "free maintenance" program will cause you serious problems in the long run. BMW's OCI's (Oil change intervals) are crap. Plain and simple. If you want to keep your car in top running order, you need to use a real fulls syn oil like Mobil 1 0W40 (not the Castrol that BMW puts in your car) and you need to change it every 6 to 8k miles. REGARDLESS of what the computer says. And their insistence on lifetime fluids is another sick joke. If you trust this, you will began to have catastrophic failures witht he tranny around 120k to 160k miles. If you can go longer than this, you are running on borrowed time.

Much of their free maintenance you can do in your own driveway with a little knowhow. I have done MANY things on these cars, (tranny swaps, suspension rebuilds, to name just a few) I do not take any of them to the dealer. And I am no mechanic. I am a second year law student. (If you still dont want to work on your car, educate yourself about it, and find a good indy once the warranty is up) Its just that I have other things I would rather spend my money on, and no matter how much money I make one day, I will NEVER spend more than 40k when I purchase a car. BMW's are overpriced out the door, but if you wait a few years they really become one heck of a deal.

Proper prevenative maintenance and care really helps these cars go the distance, age well and give you MANY years of driving pleasure even if the tech is a little outdated. As for the Rav4? Ive driven the new one. It does not drive like the X3. Period. Although the X3 isnt for everyone, it is a drivers car. There are some people who would be better off in a Rav4.

dug01
01-03-2008, 07:36 AM
Other than the fun of going to Europe (which I love since I was born and lived there) what is the point of ED?
And also the X3 production is being moved to the US---so now you can do USD instead of ED...:D.........maybe the US built X3's will be better built---

Andrew*Debbie
01-03-2008, 08:37 AM
you need to use a real fulls syn oil like Mobil 1 0W40 (not the Castrol that BMW puts in your car) and you need to change it every 6 to 8k miles.


BMW Synthetic is a full Synthetic. It is made for BMW by Castrol in Europe. It is NOT the same as Castrol Syntec made and sold in the US. Mobile 1 and the BMW branded German Castrol are the only 2 recommended oils widely available in the US.

German Castrol FAQ:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=718643#Post718643


The made in Germany Castrol branded Castrol, should work but it is 0w-30. The BMW branded Castrol is 5w-30 or 5w-40.

snb3
01-03-2008, 08:51 AM
Mobil ! is no longer fully syn

UncleJ
01-03-2008, 09:08 AM
The new RAV V6 is a much nicer car than the old cute ute. It is not in the same class as the X3 but it is fast and nimble for all that. However if I wanted fast and nimble at a reasonable price I would get the WRXsi. It doesn't ride quite as bad as the X3 over rough pavement but it is FAST and nimble. It is also not in the same class as the X3, but is much quicker.

HG132
01-03-2008, 10:50 AM
I would lease a Rav4 until the new X3 comes out. Too many vehicles have leaped frogged passed the X3. It is a great drive, but one needs to look past that to see what you don't get. I don't feel the interior is luxurious at all. It does not even look similar to the 3,5,6 interiors.

I like the exterior of the X3. But cannot see buying a 10 year old design on the inside.

I don't know if you have driven a newer X;however, it's typical of BMW, the more money you spend the better, the more luxurious the interior. As for a comparison to a 3, I have a 3 and my X's interior is infinitely nicer and more comfortable.

bmwadam
01-03-2008, 11:11 AM
snb3 how is Mobil 1 no longer fully synthetic? Do you have a link to your information?

As for Castrol, yes it is true that BMW synthetic is full syn, but this is harder to come by and it is more expensive if you pay BMW to change it when your free maintenance has expired than if you just went down to autozone, bought Mobil 1 0w40 and did it yourself. I have never found German Castrol at an auto zone, BUT Mobil 1 is readidly available.

I prefer the 0W40, it works out great for me. But my main point is I do not trust BMW OCI's. 15 to 20k oil changes (or more), even if it is full syn, is way too long. I do not exceed 10k on my OCI's or 6 months, which every comes first, although if I do a lot of city driving, I stick with about 7500 OCI's.

x3eer
01-03-2008, 01:01 PM
snb3 how is Mobil 1 no longer fully synthetic? Do you have a link to your information?

As for Castrol, yes it is true that BMW synthetic is full syn, but this is harder to come by and it is more expensive if you pay BMW to change it when your free maintenance has expired than if you just went down to autozone, bought Mobil 1 0w40 and did it yourself. I have never found German Castrol at an auto zone, BUT Mobil 1 is readidly available.

I prefer the 0W40, it works out great for me. But my main point is I do not trust BMW OCI's. 15 to 20k oil changes (or more), even if it is full syn, is way too long. I do not exceed 10k on my OCI's or 6 months, which every comes first, although if I do a lot of city driving, I stick with about 7500 OCI's.

Well.. If you want to say that the BMW free maintenance and/or oil change interval are a joke, then it has to be more realistic and you have to come up with some kind of data that we can trust. Because itís recommended by BMW and there are millions of BMW owners do their oil change service at the dealer in every 12K~15K as indicated on sevice reminder display or every year (low mileage oil change service), which ever comes first. You canít just come and say, ďWell.. The way they are doing is a joke and I donít even trust them.Ē :dunno:

snb3
01-03-2008, 02:16 PM
snb3 how is Mobil 1 no longer fully synthetic? Do you have a link to your information?

As for Castrol, yes it is true that BMW synthetic is full syn, but this is harder to come by and it is more expensive if you pay BMW to change it when your free maintenance has expired than if you just went down to autozone, bought Mobil 1 0w40 and did it yourself. I have never found German Castrol at an auto zone, BUT Mobil 1 is readidly available.

I prefer the 0W40, it works out great for me. But my main point is I do not trust BMW OCI's. 15 to 20k oil changes (or more), even if it is full syn, is way too long. I do not exceed 10k on my OCI's or 6 months, which every comes first, although if I do a lot of city driving, I stick with about 7500 OCI's.

I think as of last yr, Mobil 1 did a slight change to their bottles, @ the same time changed their base to dino-based. I remember people were running around trying to get the last of the older Mobil 1s. Think the webside was "Mike, the oil guy" or something like that. If it is indeed still pure syn, I stand corrected.

Andrew*Debbie
01-03-2008, 02:26 PM
I think as of last yr, Mobil 1 did a slight change to their bottles, @ the same time changed their base to dino-based.


http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.asp


Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with Supersyn Technology



Last time I checked, This is the only other oil BMW NA recommends for the X3.

dformica
01-03-2008, 02:36 PM
i test drove the ford edge and escape before buying an 04 cpo. there was know comparison in power for me . their quality was ok. i traded in my 06 f-150 crewcab 4x4 gas sucking truck for my bmw. 13 mpg around town wasn't cutting it. i've already surpassed that number and loving the drive.

yadi812
01-03-2008, 02:42 PM
We got a 2004 x3 for the price of a new cr-v or rav4 we were considering. So far we are pretty happy with our decision :thumbup:. It's true that the bimmer is a driver's car, the others simply felt out of its league. I really could care less about the cup holders, interior design and creature comforts. That our x3 came with all of that is pure bonus as far as I'm concerned. The other bonus is that your car doesn't look like every other car on the street ;).

yadi812
01-03-2008, 02:53 PM
As for free maintenance, this is a joke. If you are leasing a car every 3 years then it dosnt matter. BUT if you want to keep a car 6 to 8 years or more, then there "free maintenance" program will cause you serious problems in the long run. BMW's OCI's (Oil change intervals) are crap. Plain and simple. If you want to keep your car in top running order, you need to use a real fulls syn oil like Mobil 1 0W40 (not the Castrol that BMW puts in your car) and you need to change it every 6 to 8k miles. REGARDLESS of what the computer says. And their insistence on lifetime fluids is another sick joke. If you trust this, you will began to have catastrophic failures witht he tranny around 120k to 160k miles. If you can go longer than this, you are running on borrowed time.

Much of their free maintenance you can do in your own driveway with a little knowhow.

I agree with you on that and have no plan to extend the maintenance warranty on mine. However, doesn't BMW recommend 5W30 or 5W40? I know there are a lot of opinions on oil, any reason you decided on the 0W40?

bmwadam
01-03-2008, 05:15 PM
Well.. If you want to say that the BMW free maintenance and/or oil change interval are a joke, then it has to be more realistic and you have to come up with some kind of data that we can trust. Because itís recommended by BMW and there are millions of BMW owners do their oil change service at the dealer in every 12K~15K as indicated on sevice reminder display or every year (low mileage oil change service), which ever comes first. You canít just come and say, ďWell.. The way they are doing is a joke and I donít even trust them.Ē :dunno:

I have a LOT of exp. with M50 engines. I can go back to the M50's they put in the e34's, to the M52 in my e36, to the M54 in my mom's e46 and wifes e83. Oil breaks down. Free radicals in your engine attack the base components of the oil every time the engine is running. It has to do with oxidation. I am no chemist, but the reality is when I have worked on cars with over 100k that have followed BMW's OCI, they have tremendous amounts of sludge and carbon build ups on the cams, valves, and there is much more wear present throughout the engine, versus cars whose owners didnt trust this. If you were to take the valve cover off of my e36 (I had it off a few weeks back) you would see very little engine wear and NO sludge or other buildups. I have never gone over 8k on a change, although I have thought about extending it out to 10k because I do mostly highway driving now. My e36 has over 160k on it. BUT if you look at my moms car, which has the same engine as the early X3's (cant speak for the new N engines yet but the principle is the same) you will see sludge and more wear even though it has the same mileage. The previous owner of that car followed BMW's OCI's.

BMW is offering free maintenance with their cars, they only offer up to a 6 yr, 100k mile warranty. After that the car is no longer their responsibility. As I stated in the post, if you lease a car every 3 years, OR you plan on replacing your car every 6 years, it really dosnt matter how you change your oil, as long as you follow BMW's recomendations. The less they change the oil, the less it costs them.

But if you really doubt me do this: Next time you change your oil at 15k, take a sample of it. Go to www.blackstone-labs.com. For about 25 bucks they will do an oil anaylsis for you and tell you how the oil is wearing, and how often you should change it. They send you the kit to sample it with for free, you only pay when you send them the sample back. Check it out. Also if you dont plan on keeping your car well over 100k, then my advice dosnt apply to you anyway.

As for why I use 0W40. Well German Castrol is very hard to find, Mobil 1 is ALWAYS available where I live, and it is a VERY good oil. Plus it is BMW approved. I prefer it over the BMW Castrol because I think it is a better oil. It has worked out very well for me and I have ran it in the M52/54 engines with great success. But then again that is just my preference. 0W40 works just as well as 5W40. Go to bobistheoilguy.com and read about it. My biggest recomendation is that no matter what you use (as long as it is a full synthetic), change it frequently, dont trust the computer!

Andrew*Debbie
01-03-2008, 08:12 PM
BMW is offering free maintenance with their cars, they only offer up to a 6 yr, 100k mile warranty. After that the car is no longer their responsibility. As I stated in the post, if you lease a car every 3 years, OR you plan on replacing your car every 6 years, it really dosnt matter how you change your oil, as long as you follow BMW's recomendations. The less they change the oil, the less it costs them.




While that is true, BMW AG recommends the same oil change interval in markets where they don't include service with the sales price of the car.


If you plan to keep the car more than 4 or 6 years, I agree the correct thing is to send off oil samples for analysis. I've read through reports posted at bobistheoilguy. Some people reported that the BMW synthetic does hold up for 15,000. I've also seen some recent reports from 335i owners with synthetic oil that was worn out after 1,500 miles. (These are cars that see significant track time) In the past I've said changing synthetic oil more often then 6,000 miles is as useful as burning $20 bills. Now I'm not so sure. At least not for a 335i.

It depends on how the car is used.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=981162&fpart=1

I've used the BMW branded Castrol mostly because I'm at the dealer getting the oil filter kit and I'm too darn lazy to drive somewhere else. Current X3 is on a 2 year lease and I just don't care...

snb3
01-03-2008, 08:46 PM
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.asp





Last time I checked, This is the only other oil BMW NA recommends for the X3.




proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks

"blend"

bmwadam
01-04-2008, 07:41 AM
MY old 1985 e28 car also had a computer that told you when to change the oil. It was a string of lights on the instrument cluster. It usually took about 8 to 10k of my driving before it told me to change it. Point is BMW has done this long before they even offered free maintenance. And I still cant bring myself to trust it. I think 10k OCI's for highway driving may work, but I am sending off a sample to make sure of this. When I was doing the 7500k on my e36, mostly in town, stop and go, hard driving , blackstone labs told me this was what I needed to do. My e36 has basically the same engine as the M54B30. If I can really go 15k, then I will. I dont like burning 20's either. But I also want my engine to last. I dont plan on replacing my 10yr old car for another 5 years or so, my pile of law school debts will prevent me from buying another car, so I need it to go more than 200k for me. I also want to keep the X3 (30k miles now) well over 100k so I need it to stay sludge free as well.

Im still confident that Mobil 1 is a true syn. They blend they are talking about are a combination of additives and synthetic basestocks to the oil. It has to do with fighting breakdown and oxidation. Although I am no expert, if you can show me facts that state otherwise I will stand corrected. And Im not some paid crony of Mobil 1, I am sure there are better oils out there. GC may even be better, I just like stiking with an affordable, easily obtainable oil, that helps protect my engine and give me better fuel economy.

What all of us need to do is start an OCI post. Those that want to particpate need to send their oils off for sampling, and give detailed information on driving style, type of engine, climate, etc so we all can determine just what the best OCI is for our cars. bobistheoilguy is a good place to go, BUT its hard to find info on BMW specific cars.

dug01
01-04-2008, 10:44 AM
I prefer the 0W40, it works out great for me. But my main point is I do not trust BMW OCI's. 15 to 20k oil changes (or more), even if it is full syn, is way too long. I do not exceed 10k on my OCI's or 6 months, which every comes first, although if I do a lot of city driving, I stick with about 7500 OCI's.

Of course its your money but you are wasting resources with 7500 OCI's--about 3 years ago there was an extensive test of motor oils done--CR and others were involved--they took a group of NYC cabs and installed rebuilt engines in all--some had various brands of dino oil and some had synthetic oil--after 100k miles of the worst driving imaginable the engines were disassembled and compared for sludge and wear. The results were that all the dino filled engines looked the same--conclusion--doesn't matter what brand dino oil you use--the synth oil was slightly better on wear and they changed oil in the synth filled cabs once for every 3 in the dino oiled cabs--none showed much sludge--sludge is a thing of the past......final conclusion--for most motorists dino oil changed at 5000 miles is fine--for extreme conditions synth but changed at 15k miles is OK..you can just change the filter at 7500. Oh-- BTW the dino filled cabs changed their oil at different intervals--up to 7500--still no difference in wear --I go by BMW recommendations and save $80...


"proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with Supersyn Technology"
HUH??? Does anyone know what all that means??? :dunno:

bmwadam
01-04-2008, 11:53 AM
Well sludge is not a thing of the past unfortunately, I am seeing it in many of the high mileage e46's and e39's Ive worked on that followed BMW's recomendations. Also I wouldnt trust a test on NYC cabs to determine how you should change the oil in your BMW. Pushrod GM engines can take a LOT more abuse than BMW's valvetronic and overhead cam setup. Eve3n if the cabs were overheadcam Fords you still cannot compare them to a BMW engine. Different engines perform and age differently.

The best thing to do (I am repeating myself here) is an oil anylasis. BMW's OCI's will not work for everyone. It dosnt cost me 80 bucks to change my oil anyway. I can do it for 58 with 7 qts of syn and a filter. At my OCI's I am usually changig it twice a year. Maybe 3 times if I drive more. Its a small price to pay to keep my engine running well for many years outside the warranty period.

jo-e90
01-04-2008, 01:54 PM
If my oil is dirty BLACK at 6000 miles, should I wait until the 7500 OCI?
How long do you continue using dark oil?

Evlengr
01-04-2008, 03:19 PM
Look at it his way. It's cheaper to change the oil at 5 - 7.5k intervals then a set of rings.

$100 is a lot cheaper than several k.

I wasn't aware of the analysis lab via internet and will defintely take advantage of it if I keep this vehicle after next week.

It puzzles me that anyone that recommends such long intervals in a vehicle that is supposed to be driven hard.

I personally bought this X3 since an M class was impractical, but I needed something that handled close to one.

If you don't drive a BMW fast and edgy what's the point in owning one? Might as well buy the RAV 4 the other thread talks about.

Andrew*Debbie
01-04-2008, 05:14 PM
If my oil is dirty BLACK at 6000 miles, should I wait until the 7500 OCI?
How long do you continue using dark oil?


Color may not tell you much. Send a sample off for analysis.



http://www.blackstone-labs.com/gas_engines.html

x3eer
01-04-2008, 05:20 PM
Well sludge is not a thing of the past unfortunately, I am seeing it in many of the high mileage e46's and e39's Ive worked on that followed BMW's recomendations. Also I wouldnt trust a test on NYC cabs to determine how you should change the oil in your BMW. Pushrod GM engines can take a LOT more abuse than BMW's valvetronic and overhead cam setup. Eve3n if the cabs were overheadcam Fords you still cannot compare them to a BMW engine. Different engines perform and age differently.

The best thing to do (I am repeating myself here) is an oil anylasis. BMW's OCI's will not work for everyone. It dosnt cost me 80 bucks to change my oil anyway. I can do it for 58 with 7 qts of syn and a filter. At my OCI's I am usually changig it twice a year. Maybe 3 times if I drive more. Its a small price to pay to keep my engine running well for many years outside the warranty period.

So you think BMW OCI is a joke and you don't trust oil test on NYC cabs that CR and others were involved, but your own OCI.. I see..

Andrew*Debbie
01-04-2008, 05:41 PM
It puzzles me that anyone that recommends such long intervals in a vehicle that is supposed to be driven hard.






I have two answers to this one. Both are pure speculation and should be read for their entertainment value only.

1
BMW AG build these engines and has done extensive lifespan testing. Their engineers know how often the oil needs to be changed to reach the design life of the engine/car. Changing the oil too frequently is detrimental to the environment and BMW is trying to minimize the impact of their cars.

I don't know the design life of the X3. For my 1990 535i it is 300,000 miles. X3 should be somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000

2
BMW has a business agreement with Castrol. As part of this agreement BMW has agreed to absurdly long oil change intervals so Castrol can advertise how great their oil is. Infrequent service intervals help to sell more cars too.


=====================





I personally bought this X3 since an M class was impractical, but I needed something that handled close to one.


An M5 has nearly twice the HP of a X3 3.0si.

BMW requires Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 oil in the M cars.
They also change all the fluids after the first 1200 miles. Not surprising. A 500 HP motor must warm up the oil a bit and put amazing amounts of pressure on the bearings. I'm not sure what the interval is after the initial service.


I do wonder why the 335i uses the same oil and same change interval as the X3 or 328i.

dug01
01-05-2008, 07:12 AM
. bobistheoilguy is a good place to go, BUT its hard to find info on BMW specific cars.
BUT its hard to find info on BMW specific cars

How about the owners manual that came with the vehicle--OH I forgot, the info in there is a "JOKE"....:D

AzNMpower32
01-05-2008, 07:21 AM
If the oil lasts 15k miles, the filter certainly won't. People who change the oil themselves after the full interval are unpleasantly surprised at the filter's condition.

Starab
01-05-2008, 07:29 AM
And also the X3 production is being moved to the US---so now you can do USD instead of ED...:D.........maybe the US built X3's will be better built---

Now BMWs being built in US (saving time-Liability-Costs for shippiing/cargo and time...)

the price of BMWs built in US should be should be the lower than ED.

Starab
01-05-2008, 07:37 AM
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.asp
Last time I checked, This is the only other oil BMW NA recommends for the X3.

I checked with bmwusa
Recommends Mobil, Castrol and Valvoline Synthetic only
Valvoline is only one that has full synthetic for high Mileage cars(Max Life-Full Synthetic)

X3 Skier
01-05-2008, 09:37 AM
the price of BMWs built in US should be should be the lower than ED.

And I should weigh thrity pounds less and have hair again. Both equally likely to happen.:cry:

Cheers

x3ronnie
01-05-2008, 10:32 AM
And I should weigh thrity pounds less and have hair again. Both equally likely to happen.:cry:

Cheers

Hey, it would nice though...hair again...:)

bmwadam
01-05-2008, 11:26 AM
I do not autmoaticaly trust BMW's OCI recomendations or some report which I have never seen done by CR on NYC taxis, non high performance cars built for an entirely different purpose than my X3 or 328i. Have you ever seen a NYC taxi X3? But I do trust an oil anyalsis done by a lab of MY oil, and my own exp. working on these cars.

One thing is sure: ANYONE who follows this 15k OCI for a 335i is asking for trouble. The fact that the OCI is the same as a 328i should automatically raise red flags. A friend of mine has a 335i coupe and I have driven it a few times, it is not possible to take it easy in that car.

HG132
01-05-2008, 01:18 PM
A lot of this is speculation. One of my father's past MB a 2001 E320 was found to have sludge in the engine. He had 100K in 2004 and he went every 7500 miles and PAID MB for his oil changes.

When I was in college I worked at a triplex and we recommended every 7500 miles for the "LOF." I am now dating myself :rofl: As part of the dealerships sales pitch, we would throw in lifetime oil changes. Service used--at that time--the best grade of oil. We still had cars coming in for blown gaskets, broken timing belts, blown engines, etc...

You do your best to be vigilant; however, quite frankly, sometimes it's a crap shoot.

bobbyjoe
01-06-2008, 10:25 PM
A little bit of deviation from the original topic - but since we are all talking about oil changes...

Has anyone here actually changed their own oil for an X3?

For those who have:
1. Is it really just like the E46 (http://www.bmw325i.net/maint_oil_change.shtml)?
2. How do you figure out the right oil level? Using the oil level light or what?

X3 Skier
01-07-2008, 03:43 AM
A little bit of deviation from the original topic - but since we are all talking about oil changes...

Has anyone here actually changed their own oil for an X3?

For those who have:
1. Is it really just like the E46 (http://www.bmw325i.net/maint_oil_change.shtml)?
2. How do you figure out the right oil level? Using the oil level light or what?

No clue on the procedure but I think I remember reading in the Roundel that the only way they could figure it out was to measure what came out and then add that back in and hope the oil level sensor notices any error from the stated capacity.

Cheers

bmwadam
01-07-2008, 08:36 AM
I have always changed my own oil. I cant even tell you how many times I have done this, and I have changed oil on almost every mainstream BMW model out there, this includes an e90 325i with the N52 motor.

I still have the dipstick on mine. It is exactly like an e46 car. With the N52 lacking a dipstick (I suspect this was done to encourage visits to the dealer) the best way to do it is to find out how much the engine takes after a drain, and always add this amount. I think it is somewhere around 7qts, it should be on the net somewhere. On my M54 I have to add 7 qts if I let the car drain for about 45 min or so. If not, its usually about 6.7.

Here again this highlights another problem: The oil sensor is triggered when the oil drops below an acceptable level, but it dosnt tell you how much to add, ALSO its not good to run an engine until it trips the oil sensor, your way too low at that point.

This should not be a problem on newer cars as they should not leak or burn oil, but as the car ages, only frequent oil changes can keep this from happening.

bobbyjoe
01-07-2008, 05:16 PM
I wonder how the dealership mechanics fill the right amount of oil. While the "make input equal to output" method would work (assuming no leakage/burning in between oil changes), it just seems so rough and inaccurate. I wonder if one of the hidden options in the OBC give a more precise value, or if they hook it up to a diagnostic computer or something...

I plan to do my own first oil change soon (Approaching the run-in 1200mile mark). Info at BMW325i.net seems pretty clear. Just need to get some ramps, torque wrench and some other tidbits (yes, I'm really a greenhorn), any pointers regarding good equipment to get appreciated.

And sorry to the OP... won't try to hijack this thread after this post. :)

x3ronnie
01-07-2008, 05:24 PM
My salesman told me that the only to determine if the oil level is correct is to weigh it. There was an X3 owner in whose oil level sensor was indicating low oil level, and the service tech had to drain out all the oil and weigh it. This is what I was told. Now I'm sure this thread will get buzzing, albeit off-topic.

Andrew*Debbie
01-08-2008, 04:54 AM
My salesman told me that the only to determine if the oil level is correct is to weigh it. There was an X3 owner in whose oil level sensor was indicating low oil level, and the service tech had to drain out all the oil and weigh it. This is what I was told. Now I'm sure this thread will get buzzing, albeit off-topic.

Don't believe what a salesman tells you.

Weigh it? The Car? The Oil? :rofl: Better yet, pour the used oil into a RAV-4 and weigh the Toyota.

Measure the oil by volume.

An easier way to check the sensor is drain and fill.

bmwadam
01-08-2008, 08:20 AM
To change your oil you need a very large socket, I think it is a 36mm, it is outside in my toolbox. Look at your cannister and see what size it is. You will also need a 17mm socket for the drain plug. IF you have the M54B30 or B25 you need 7 qts. Add 6, run the car for about 10 min or so, then check it with your dipstick. IF u have a level driveway and are a thin person, you can squeeze under the X3 without having to raise it up, BUT ramps may just be easier.

I am not sure on the N52. Ive only done it once, and I was basically helping a friend of mine. Just look at the cannister.