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View Full Version : Getting tired of the AT threads


jcarlilesiu
01-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Let me first off say that I am not trying to demonize or make the complaints of those with Auto trans problems any less justified. I came from a mitsubishi, and understand fully a problematic car and the frustration of dealing with one. Especially when the company won't recognize it.

With that said though, the constant flow of threads over the issue is becoming tiresome. On the first page alone, 5 threads are in regard to the transmission issue SOME of you are experiencing. Many of the other threads have been somewhat hijacked with the transmission issues even though they didn't start out on that topic.

From an '04 X3 owner, who is extremely satisfied with this car and has zero transmission issues, I visit this thread regularly (although I don't post much) in regard to many of the other topics up for discussion. Lately, the forum has become a complain forum, rather than a forum with constructive data, findings, and fixes.

Is it possible to consolidate the transmission issue to a thread or maybe 2 and give some other topics the ability to be noticed and discussed?

kjboyd
01-14-2008, 03:49 PM
or maybe you can just stop reading them.

I'm glad your 04 has no problems.

By the way, who put the bitch pills in the water today. WE are all a little cranky it seems.

hunterz4
01-14-2008, 04:55 PM
jcar, Kinda funny to start a thead to complain about other people complaining about a significant issue that we face with this transmission. And I do not mean this to be a complaint about your complaining about the complainers, I just am making an observation. I am happy for you that you have had no problems with yours. In fact we bought our 07 based on an 06 loaner we received from BMW. If you looked at the transmission poll thread you will see that in spite of this issue most people would buy an X3 again. BMW has a winner with this SAV but they really need to step to the plate and take care of whatever is causing this problem. There does seem to be good X3 infomation generally and I think that most who are experiencing the problem would prefer to spend their time discussing other aspects of the X3 experience but that is not going to happen until this issue is resolved.

AzNMpower32
01-14-2008, 05:18 PM
We should merge the AT threads. It's becoming a repeat on repeat on repeat. Now when new owners get an X3, they're more concerned about determining whether their car has a transmission issue instead of putting up pictures or giving a review.

davelv
01-14-2008, 06:13 PM
Excuse me!!! Pictures or living? I think being alive is far more important.

If I had not posted on this forum, BMWNA would not have intervened to immediately and without any hassle, provide a loaner for two weeks and reprogram the transmission/DME.

So until BMW has recalled the X3 to fix everyone's, I think this forum is one of the few tools possible to keep this issue at the forefront!!!!.

And no one is stopping all of you happy pre-2007 X3 owners from posting any thread you want. Go ahead and do it, but leave the rest of us the option to continue talking about how to get the AT problem fixed.

Evlengr
01-14-2008, 06:26 PM
Thankfully this is in the fore front where it belongs. Again this isn't an issue concerning poor paint quality, I need new floor mats, etc....

Burying this on page 4 won't make it go away.

Corporate BMW and I have been in contact several times in the past month (including today). Once this is done for all X3 owners I will leave it be.

IMO there should be a recall. Then if you don't feel you need it--fine! And if you do better yet. This way everyone is covered and the owner can be the decision maker, not a corporation.

doubledeclutch
01-14-2008, 06:40 PM
I think it's fine that owners voice their concerns and complaints about the transmission. That's a good thing. But lets indeed have one thread and not 10.

MMME30W
01-14-2008, 06:49 PM
By the way, who put the bitch pills in the water today. WE are all a little cranky it seems.

True, I noticed it as well. Phase of the moon? :dunno:

sojglenn
01-14-2008, 07:43 PM
I agree with 1 thread. Make it a sticky if you don't want it to go away. I agree it is getting tiresome.

MMME30W
01-14-2008, 07:52 PM
Let me first off say that I am not trying to demonize or make the complaints of those with Auto trans problems any less justified. I came from a mitsubishi, and understand fully a problematic car and the frustration of dealing with one. Especially when the company won't recognize it.

With that said though, the constant flow of threads over the issue is becoming tiresome. On the first page alone, 5 threads are in regard to the transmission issue SOME of you are experiencing. Many of the other threads have been somewhat hijacked with the transmission issues even though they didn't start out on that topic.

From an '04 X3 owner, who is extremely satisfied with this car and has zero transmission issues, I visit this thread regularly (although I don't post much) in regard to many of the other topics up for discussion. Lately, the forum has become a complain forum, rather than a forum with constructive data, findings, and fixes.

Is it possible to consolidate the transmission issue to a thread or maybe 2 and give some other topics the ability to be noticed and discussed?

Bro - People talk about what's on their mind. Its a car forum.

If you don't like the plethora (hope I used that word right. :) ) of AT threads, start one yourself. (No offence intended.)

I've said it before, BMW NA has a serious problem on their hands; my guess is the Suits in corporate are preventing the engineers from issueing a recall.

Unfortunately its going to get some one hurt or God forbid seriously injured in a 2007+ X3 and them to get sued before they address the issue.

Bobert
01-14-2008, 08:06 PM
1 thread is a good idea, but lets make it a sticky at the top.

Evlengr
01-14-2008, 08:21 PM
Sticky thread---great idea--Thanks folks! Please realize although I am concerned about the safety and well-being of my family first and foremost and then the investment in this vehicle----- I am slo worried about other owners that may not read web sites like this.

If you love BMW's that much then you should all be equally worried.

It is human nature to let things go little by little if unchallenged and corprations are the worst violators of this ethical issue.

Think about it when you go to buy that new X6. Did they rush it out like they did they 6 spd AT?

Sonoman707
01-14-2008, 08:30 PM
I agree with 1 thread. Make it a sticky if you don't want it to go away. I agree it is getting tiresome.


:ditto:

mawana
01-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Is the X3 not issued in manual...?

dspeed
01-14-2008, 08:48 PM
I've been thinking along the same lines as jcarlilesiu.

kjboyd
01-14-2008, 08:49 PM
whether it is or is not issued in manual is not the point.

HT417
01-15-2008, 01:37 AM
+1 to the 1 sticky thread and we all copy and paste all of our still pertinent comments there.:thumbup:

MMME30W
01-15-2008, 03:17 AM
Agree with the sticky idea, that's sensible.

viii_ball
01-15-2008, 05:44 AM
or maybe you can just stop reading them.

Good advice. The nature of a forum allows you to skip over those topics for which you have no interest. Personally I would rather discuss issues and solutions than paint colors and see pictures. I have an X3 and I really don't car to see a picture of yours.

The discussion of the AT issue is very important from many standpoints.

STOP :bawling:

cbj
01-15-2008, 09:39 AM
I think they are frustrating as I have not been able to detect any myself in my 07 and can't join the discussion but its a discussion forum and people should be allowed to post what they want regarding their X3.

Sticky sounds like a great solution and having the information gathered in one thread should help the people who is trying to talk to BMWNA.

I do miss threads of new peoples X3s but I have seen several of the sport versions brand new on the street lately and what a nice looking package.

Havelcek
01-15-2008, 09:41 AM
I think they are frustrating as I have not been able to detect any myself in my 07 and can't join the discussion but its a discussion forum and people should be allowed to post what they want regarding their X3.

Sticky sounds like a great solution and having the information gathered in one thread should help the people who is trying to talk to BMWNA.

I do miss threads of new peoples X3s but I have seen several of the sport versions brand new on the street lately and what a nice looking package.

I'd rather have nothing to say than have a broken $45K car...want to trade?

JBasham
01-16-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm soooooo glad I can skip the AT threads. It sucks for you guys that are stuck with them. I hope BMW works something out. You all deserve better.

Sans Nil
01-16-2008, 03:34 PM
If you can't resist clicking on a thread with a topic of no-interest to you then I suggest you have larger issues than you're aware. A key feature of a threaded forum is you can skip over the posts that don't interest you. Not that hard is it? Sort of like changing a tv channel you don't care about. <<CLICK>>

Evlengr
01-16-2008, 03:46 PM
If you can't resist clicking on a thread with a topic of no-interest to you then I suggest you have larger issues than you're aware. A key feature of a threaded forum is you can skip over the posts that don't interest you. Not that hard is it? Sort of like changing a tv channel you don't care about. <<CLICK>>


These are the same folks that want the government to stop badddddd radio. I agree--change the channel.

kjboyd
01-16-2008, 04:12 PM
Think they support book burning too?

EricTheGreen
01-16-2008, 05:15 PM
Wasn't that a concept X3 David Hemmings drove in Farenheit 451?

CoupeCrazy
01-17-2008, 01:12 PM
My wife***8217;s 07 is a bit ***8220;herky-jerky***8221; while approaching a red light and lightly braking. It also has a slight half-second lag when accelerating, which I think is attributed to some sort of rough programming of the DBW system.

It does sorta suck, but***8230;

- Am I going to all of a sudden forget that I***8217;m not in my 6 speed A4 (which has close to
300 lb-ft of torque available at 1700 RPM) when I***8217;m pulling onto a crowded highway in
the X3?
- Am I going to make a bad decision while merging into traffic and then come on here with
a dramatic story about how my family almost got killed?
- Am I going to create an assload of posts about how terrible the tranny is when my wife
(who complains as much as any other woman) hasn***8217;t even noticed ***8220;the issue***8221;?

Nope!

I know the car has these characteristics and I***8217;ve adjusted my driving style accordingly. Seems pretty simple, no?

I think some people on these forums need to turn down the ***8220;Drama-meter***8221;. I***8217;m coming from VW and Audi forums, where people talk all sorts of **** and complain about trivial things***8230;but this X3 forum really takes the cake!

Evlengr
01-17-2008, 01:22 PM
Then dont read them---my wife's old 2005 accord shifted better. So I am supposed to dumb down my driving technique since a $40K plus vehicle that is designed to "adapt" to my style can't work right?

If you are going to comment on the posts you don't like about posting then read the posts.

bmwdonna
01-17-2008, 01:53 PM
I own many different makes of cars, muscle cars, chryslers, chevy and now BMW. Each car I own has a forum, and I have found that the information on these forums is invaluable and the bottom line is isn't that just part of what the forum is for ?

:angel:

vern
01-18-2008, 06:47 AM
Sticky thread---great idea--Thanks folks! Please realize although I am concerned about the safety and well-being of my family first and foremost and then the investment in this vehicle----- I am slo worried about other owners that may not read web sites like this.

If you love BMW's that much then you should all be equally worried.

It is human nature to let things go little by little if unchallenged and corprations are the worst violators of this ethical issue.

Think about it when you go to buy that new X6. Did they rush it out like they did they 6 spd AT?
Please get off your soap box,enough already.I feel for you with your problem but you are starting to repeat yourself. Good luck in your out come.
cheers
vern

bmwadam
01-18-2008, 08:10 AM
The only BMW model AT problems I've ever had was from 1) An old e34 ZF tranny that I had to replace twice (tried to fix it the first time, it didnt work so I had to go with a boneyard one) Granted this one had about 200k on the clock, and 2) All of these late model failures that I have had to deal with due to this lifetime fluid BS.

These problems have pissed me off enough to show me the value of a manual gearbox. Nuf SAID!

I know several people here in Chattanooga with 07 and 08 X3's who have NO problems. In fact I have yet to find anyone around here with this issue, and the guys at the dealer have told me that they havnt had any problems from customers with this issue yet.This is prob the real issue b/c until or unless it affects MANY cars, BMW will prob not issue a recall. They typically will presume that the fault must be on the driver, or some minor glitch only affecting a small number of cars. Either way it does suck to be one of the people in the small minority with this issue, and these forums are a good place as any to bitch about it soooo.....

Maybe it is a build batch issue? Certain cars built within a certain time frame?

Evlengr
01-18-2008, 10:46 AM
The only BMW model AT problems I've ever had was from 1) An old e34 ZF tranny that I had to replace twice (tried to fix it the first time, it didnt work so I had to go with a boneyard one) Granted this one had about 200k on the clock, and 2) All of these late model failures that I have had to deal with due to this lifetime fluid BS.

These problems have pissed me off enough to show me the value of a manual gearbox. Nuf SAID!

I know several people here in Chattanooga with 07 and 08 X3's who have NO problems. In fact I have yet to find anyone around here with this issue, and the guys at the dealer have told me that they havnt had any problems from customers with this issue yet.This is prob the real issue b/c until or unless it affects MANY cars, BMW will prob not issue a recall. They typically will presume that the fault must be on the driver, or some minor glitch only affecting a small number of cars. Either way it does suck to be one of the people in the small minority with this issue, and these forums are a good place as any to bitch about it soooo.....

Maybe it is a build batch issue? Certain cars built within a certain time frame?

The dealer and BMWNA continued to tell me that I was the only one with this problem until I dropped a stack of reprinted posts on the SA's desk. Then all of a sudden it was oh yeah and etc....

Now as far as the "Batch" ---yes it does seem to indicate that a certain build date has this problem. In answer to that it means a certain build does not have this problem. You would think it would be easy to sovle the problem, but we know half the battle is admitting there is one.

The BoatMan
01-18-2008, 02:24 PM
I will post what I want in regards to my X3 when I want. I do not care if you want to read it or not.

I am thankful for everyone who posts their issues with the X3 transmission. Start as many new threads as necessary.

Change the channel if you dont like the content. This is a message board for crying out loud.

X3 Skier
01-18-2008, 02:40 PM
Just for a little change of pace, I have a minor issue with my 6 speed. Yesterday when it was -10 in the parking lot, the shift linkage was a little stiff until the gear box warmed up.:rolleyes: Today, when it was -5, it was not as stiff. Sum total of manual transmission issues in 36000 miles. :D

Cheers

jdeday
01-18-2008, 06:09 PM
We should merge the AT threads. It's becoming a repeat on repeat on repeat. Now when new owners get an X3, they're more concerned about determining whether their car has a transmission issue instead of putting up pictures or giving a review.

Agree.... I use to enjoy visiting this board to read how other people are enjoying their X3's. But with all of the tranny threads it makes me want to stop visiting.

hot_croc
01-18-2008, 10:48 PM
Greetings!

Yes, this is my first post on bimmerfest, but hardly my first forum membership or post on a forum (I'm on CaymanClub, LotusTalk, NAM, etc.). My husband and I are considering a new X3. I came to bimmerfest looking for good information on this vehicle and what do I find but a bunch of whiners?!?

jcar is spot on: no one is saying your AT issues aren't serious or you shouldn't be allowed to express your concerns, what they ARE saying is that multiple threads on the exact same topic aren't necessary. And that's a premise of MOST forums: multiple threads of the same topic are combined into 1 - and if it's a hot-topic such as this, it gets stickied. So tell me, just what's wrong with a single stickied thread where all of the information can be centrally collected and easily located???

Stop being so defensive and think about it for a minute, it might actually start to make sense.

Cheers,

kjboyd
01-18-2008, 11:47 PM
what a nice first post.

Evlengr
01-18-2008, 11:49 PM
Actually I am one of the most vocal people (as most know) about this trannsmission issue and agree a sticky single thread would work well, but calling people whiners isn't the best way to introduce your self.

HT417
01-19-2008, 01:09 AM
Is this how you start out in all of the other forums, too??

We don't need or deserve the shotgun blast. If your issue is with certain posters/posts then go after them individually.

If you took the time to read all of the posts, you would have noticed that a lot of us have already stated our agreement with one thread and a sticky. And keep in mind that we apparently don't have a dedicated mod here so it's not as easy as just making a request to get it to happen.

hunterz4
01-19-2008, 04:43 PM
And keep in mind that we apparently don't have a dedicated mod here so it's not as easy as just making a request to get it to happen.

+1

hot - let us know how your test drive goes. If the tranny isn't working please don''t start a new thread.:) As you may be aware we have enough already and you are probably not aware of the ones that are long closed.

hot_croc
01-19-2008, 04:47 PM
what a nice first post.
Glad you liked it!
You should've seen what I was going to post!!! :rofl:

Seriously though... I typically don't get involved in threads like these, but this one got under my skin. All jcar did was make a simple (and logical) suggestion and *BAM* post after post lambasting him for the idea as if he were the very reason for all of the AT problems. :tsk: Not a very friendly environment.

kjboyd
01-19-2008, 04:53 PM
I was joking.

hunterz4
01-19-2008, 04:57 PM
I was joking.

This is actually a very friendly place. Good folks with helpful suggestions.

vern
01-19-2008, 06:03 PM
Change the channel if you dont like the content. This is a message board for crying out loud.
Your right as far as changing the channel but how about if you like the channel and you don't like the repeat over and over again. After awhile IMO its a waste of space and sounds like whinning.
cheers
vern

Evlengr
01-20-2008, 08:44 AM
As much as I am upset with the X3 and it's trannsmission I love the site. For the most part this site is very informative and I have even had occasion to talk to some of the posters personally.

Btw there are hundreds of posts here. This one just seems to garner the most interest since it is at the very least an expensive topic point on the vehicle.

Most of us are professionals in our fields and don't have time to spend mucking about with car problems that in itself is a cost. Oppurtunity Cost

I have asked for the tranny posts to be consolidated in the best interests of everyone. The next question is which posts are tranny posts? Is this one?

Then we will have a whole set of posts of which posts qualify. Lol.

Boile
01-20-2008, 09:06 AM
Lately, the forum has become a complain forum, rather than a forum with constructive data, findings, and fixes.


Every fix starts with a complaint. :dunno:

jcarlilesiu
01-21-2008, 11:03 AM
Hey... all I was saying was that it is tiresome to read several threads over the same issue.

Many of them don't even start out about the transmission issue, and some how morph into it. At which time, I stop reading and "change the channel". However; when the discussion is about something that interests me, and then the thread gets derailed... its frustrating.

I do sincerely hope that you all find a resolution to your issue. I hope that this board provides the method that you attain help. Hell, if I have problems in the future, I would love to have a method like this for sharing information and finding a resolution.

I think that you best bet in accomplishing this is to consolidate the conversation to one thread and work on the issue. By spreading the complaints and information over several threads, the effort to resolve the issue is lost, and the percieved situation from the outside looks like a whinning fest.

All those who wish to criticize me for creating a thread asking you to stop derailing threads, or creating multiple threads on the same subject are seeing their issue as paramount compared to others.

Didn't mean to start a flame war, just a simple request.

davelv
01-21-2008, 09:39 PM
How many of these anti-transmission postings are from BMWNA related personnas?

Seems kinda odd that all of a sudden there is a big push to squelch comments about the very dangerous AT.

doubledeclutch
01-21-2008, 11:48 PM
How many of these anti-transmission postings are from BMWNA related personnas?
Seems kinda odd that all of a sudden there is a big push to squelch comments about the very dangerous AT.

Yes, This tranny is very dangerous. I'm hearing that some X3's are spontaneously combusting because of the tranny. The whole car just going up in a massive fireball because of the tranny. No warning whatsoever. :ouch::slap::banghead::throw:

Evlengr
01-22-2008, 07:23 AM
Yes, This tranny is very dangerous. I'm hearing that some X3's are spontaneously combusting because of the tranny. The whole car just going up in a massive fireball because of the tranny. No warning whatsoever. :ouch::slap::banghead::throw:

Don't diminish a real problem with your sarcasm, if you haven't had to deal with it.

There are three key elements of a vehicle that should never be glossed over.

Drive Train

Brakes

Steering

two out of three in this case is not a winning combo.

davelv
01-22-2008, 09:40 PM
Yes, This tranny is very dangerous. I'm hearing that some X3's are spontaneously combusting because of the tranny. The whole car just going up in a massive fireball because of the tranny. No warning whatsoever. :ouch::slap::banghead::throw:

A very good description of an X3 being broadsided by a cement mixer truck at 45 mph because of AT hesitation.

UUNetBill
01-27-2008, 05:18 PM
I, too, thought there were a bit too many transmission posts in here, but like most of us, I just scanned through them or skipped them completely since ours seemed to be working okay. But guess what? Just shy of 19K on our '07 X3, just driving through traffic, the tranny went into limp mode - doing about 35mph and it went 'clunk' and the warning light came on, wouldn't shift at all. We pulled into a parking lot and tried to shut off and restart the car, same problem. You could feel the tranny hesitating and not wanting to go into R or D. Wouldn't engage SD at all. Called BMW roadside, they offered to send a flatbed (ETA unknown) but also suggested we try to make it to our local dealer if we thought we could make it. Only five miles, let's give it a shot. Drove about 2 in limp mode, then at a red light, wouldn't grab a gear at all. Feathered the throttle to try and get through the intersection, finally grabbed a gear and managed to limp home. Called BMW again, waited on hold, and restarted the car - all warning lights cleared, pulled out into the cul-de sac and everything seemed fine. Been good all weekend. We're only 800 miles from our next scheduled service, so we're gonna see if it holds for a week or so and see if the dealer can pull some codes, tell us what might have happened. I'm hesitant to have them apply any firmware upgrades since most seem to fix one problem but open up another one or two. I gotta say, though, NOT a reassuring state of affairs on a fairly new $43K car. . .

Sorry for the long post - had to vent. Needless to say, I'll be reading the tranny posts a LOT closer from now on. Keep 'em coming!

:dunno: :mad: :thumbdwn:

Zoltar
01-27-2008, 06:11 PM
I, too, thought there were a bit too many transmission posts in here, but like most of us, I just scanned through them or skipped them completely since ours seemed to be working okay. But guess what? Just shy of 19K on our '07 X3, just driving through traffic, the tranny went into limp mode - doing about 35mph and it went 'clunk' and the warning light came on, wouldn't shift at all. We pulled into a parking lot and tried to shut off and restart the car, same problem. You could feel the tranny hesitating and not wanting to go into R or D. Wouldn't engage SD at all. Called BMW roadside, they offered to send a flatbed (ETA unknown) but also suggested we try to make it to our local dealer if we thought we could make it. Only five miles, let's give it a shot. Drove about 2 in limp mode, then at a red light, wouldn't grab a gear at all. Feathered the throttle to try and get through the intersection, finally grabbed a gear and managed to limp home. Called BMW again, waited on hold, and restarted the car - all warning lights cleared, pulled out into the cul-de sac and everything seemed fine. Been good all weekend. We're only 800 miles from our next scheduled service, so we're gonna see if it holds for a week or so and see if the dealer can pull some codes, tell us what might have happened. I'm hesitant to have them apply any firmware upgrades since most seem to fix one problem but open up another one or two. I gotta say, though, NOT a reassuring state of affairs on a fairly new $43K car. . .

Sorry for the long post - had to vent. Needless to say, I'll be reading the tranny posts a LOT closer from now on. Keep 'em coming!

:dunno: :mad: :thumbdwn:


Interesting. Sorry about your trouble. Glad no one was hurt.
Have you had any of the previous software updates?
I believe there was a separate SIB for going into limp mode that was different from the standard trans complaint SIB.

UUNetBill
01-28-2008, 08:35 AM
Zoltar - thanks for the reply.

No, I haven't had the tranny touched since we bought the vehicle - I was pretty happy overall with the performance of the transmission, so I figured, "If it ain't broke. . ." After this one glitch, the car performed flawlessly all weekend, so we cancelled our service appointment for today and rescheduled it for next week to coincide with our first oil service. I'll have them pull codes when it's in to see if there was something else that may have triggered the tranny issue - as I understand it, all of the 'alphabet' systems (ABS, DTC, ESP, PDQ, etc.) are all tied into the ECU bus, so there may have been a related failure/glitch that caused the trans to bug out. I was thinking maybe grunge on a wheel sensor, something like that may have sent a stray signal to the computer and shut things down - hopefully, the diags will show a related issue, who knows?? :dunno:

On an unrelated note, the passenger side window has shown a drastic increase in wind noise over the last month or so. . .funny, I don't remember this much 'character' in any of my other BMWs over the years! :D

dug01
01-28-2008, 09:57 AM
Zoltar - thanks for the reply.

No, I haven't had the tranny touched since we bought the vehicle - I was pretty happy overall with the performance of the transmission, so I figured, "If it ain't broke. . ." After this one glitch, the car performed flawlessly all weekend, so we cancelled our service appointment for today and rescheduled it for next week to coincide with our first oil service. I'll have them pull codes when it's in to see if there was something else that may have triggered the tranny issue - as I understand it, all of the 'alphabet' systems (ABS, DTC, ESP, PDQ, etc.) are all tied into the ECU bus, so there may have been a related failure/glitch that caused the trans to bug out. I was thinking maybe grunge on a wheel sensor, something like that may have sent a stray signal to the computer and shut things down - hopefully, the diags will show a related issue, who knows?? :dunno:

! :D
I would take it in at once and get a loaner--limp mode is dangerous--what if it does it again when you are entering an interstate where traffic is moving at 70+MPH and you need rapid acceleration to enter--you would be hit for sure or off the road--take it in they will give you a loaner.

Evlengr
01-28-2008, 10:23 AM
UU I agree with Dugo1.

This is not something to be taken lightly.

You merge into traffic and that thing stalls out, the best you can hope for is a rear end collsion.

My wife and daughter (little one by my choice) won't get in my X3 at this point.

It goes in to THEE BMWNA mechanic tomorrow and even with their predictable response I am still having an independent BMW certified mechanic give it the go over.