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gw
05-20-2008, 12:57 PM
Well, it has happened. Premium for my X 5 just hit $4. I was waiting for this to happen and then start a boycott of the biggest profiteers, Exxon Mobile.

I know that may effect some of my friends on this list who work for Exxon. I am sorry.

My boycott of Exxon Mobile would be a crusade until they reduce the price of premium to $2. It can be done. Gas prices have little to do with the supply and demand of oil. A barrel of oil is produced in the UAE for $1 (including the all the overheads like the private jets, harems, etc.) The $128 a barrel is simply profit making by the oil companies.

If there is a general boycott of Exxon Mobile...they will reduce the price. Or if we behave the way big oil excepts us to behave (desensitized) then don't be surprised with gas becomes $5

Kind regards,

GW

BTW, Iíll start using Sams $3.75 for premium. Not that I think Wal-Mart is any better than Exxon, but it is ten bucks cheaper per thankful.

335i Driver
05-20-2008, 01:24 PM
Mobile! :rofl:

Vodka G
05-20-2008, 01:55 PM
actually if you look at the profit that these oil co. are making is actually not all that much.if you look under their co. sheets you will find that yes that's a huge $$ amt that they are making BUT you also have to look at how much the Co. is work and whatz that % in Co. revenue/size vs profit.....and the % is actually not that high....is pretty normal compared to other Co.

so is not like the oil co. is making all that $$$ and that's why gas prices is UP at $4

the case is a simple supply and demand....demand have gone up worldwide!!!! and supply have stay constant for the past few years

results?? higher gas price

that's one aspect of it

the other is that the rest of the world have been paying about $4 a gallon for a long time before we did.......the US have just been sub.-ing our cheap gas price for a looong time.......just look at some euro countries.......

there are actualli some pros to a higher gas price....1st of all maybe car manf. will now consider importing smaller engine platforms for cars.....they dun do that rite now because our gas price WERE cheaper than anywhere else and people in the states wants the big displacement more power cars.....

i mean look at euro...they've got 318, 316, 320 etc etc which we dun have (and mind you they have roads that can go even faster than we can here in the US)

why?? because gas is double there....so people dun mind having a smaller engine (but the same car) taht can do more mpg...and for the peeps taht can afford they can also get the V8

is a matter of choice IMO

that's all i'll say for now

Fulltone74
05-20-2008, 02:11 PM
the other is that the rest of the world have been paying about $4 a gallon for a long time before we did.......the US have just been sub.-ing our cheap gas price for a looong time.......just look at some euro countries.......



Aside from various tax credits to oil companies for exploration, the U.S. DOES NOT subsidize the price of gasoline. They simply tax the gasoline dramatically less that other countries.

Taxing less is not the same as a subsidy.

The definition of a subsidy is the government actually paying for a portion of the true production cost of a product so that a supplier can sell below cost.


The reason that gasoline is 2X the price in Europe is because Europe puts 100% sales tax on the market price of gas.

The U.S. only has about 30 cents per gallon of excise taxes plus the sales tax percentage from each state. So that works out to around 50 cents a gallon. Europe is adding about $4 whole dollars a gallon in extra tax.

So Europes gas is not more expensive from a lack of subsidy, but from a excessive taxation.

vern
05-20-2008, 02:28 PM
Aside from various tax credits to oil companies for exploration, the U.S. DOES NOT subsidize the price of gasoline. They simply tax the gasoline dramatically less that other countries.

Taxing less is not the same as a subsidy.

The definition of a subsidy is the government actually paying for a portion of the true production cost of a product so that a supplier can sell below cost.


The reason that gasoline is 2X the price in Europe is because Europe puts 100% sales tax on the market price of gas.

The U.S. only has about 30 cents per gallon of excise taxes plus the sales tax percentage from each state. So that works out to around 50 cents a gallon. Europe is adding about $4 whole dollars a gallon in extra tax.

So Europes gas is not more expensive from a lack of subsidy, but from a excessive taxation.
+ 1 I love it when posters come out with the real facts and not the BS. Kudos to you Fulltone 74
cheers
vern

jesimmons
05-20-2008, 02:31 PM
Speculators are driving the price of crude up on world markets due to increased demand, political instability, and probably to some extent good old fashioned greed. Oil is traded on world markets in US dollars. US Dollars are shrinking in value on world currency exchanges - partly due to the financial mess brought on by the US Mortgage meltdown. Its a perfect storm so to speak and it has hit us right where it hurts most - the pocket book. Don't look for this to turn around quickly. Yes the Oil Companies are reaping the benefits - particularly those that are pumping crude and getting the $125 a barrel the market bears... But the Oil Companies don't set the market price. The market does.

Vodka G
05-20-2008, 04:11 PM
Aside from various tax credits to oil companies for exploration, the U.S. DOES NOT subsidize the price of gasoline. They simply tax the gasoline dramatically less that other countries.

Taxing less is not the same as a subsidy.

The definition of a subsidy is the government actually paying for a portion of the true production cost of a product so that a supplier can sell below cost.


The reason that gasoline is 2X the price in Europe is because Europe puts 100% sales tax on the market price of gas.

The U.S. only has about 30 cents per gallon of excise taxes plus the sales tax percentage from each state. So that works out to around 50 cents a gallon. Europe is adding about $4 whole dollars a gallon in extra tax.

So Europes gas is not more expensive from a lack of subsidy, but from a excessive taxation.


yep you are rite, (my bad)

and i think euro countries are doing the rite thing by heavy taxing on gasoline.......

but my point is that the oil co. is not thr problem with high gas price........is simply supply and demand...with a lil bit of speculation and trading

kevinp
05-20-2008, 04:28 PM
Here is a thought, just a thought...keep the flames set to stun please:)

NATIONAL DONT FILL YOUR TANK DAY (2008)

Instead of filling your car with $70.00 of gas, only buy $30.00 at a time. The gas companies daily revenues will drop by 50%. Granted that you will fill up twice as often but their cash in hand falls by 50% in one day.

Could this make a dent in demand?:dunno:

93LE
05-20-2008, 05:00 PM
A more effective boycott would be a rolling boycott, one month everybody boycotts Exxon, next month Shell,...etc. This would really screw with their quarterly earnings

mundo74
05-20-2008, 05:07 PM
How about this one: Increasing demand, declining major oilfeilds. At some point I hope this will become apparent to the ordinary gasoline consumer.

OCADA
05-20-2008, 07:43 PM
How about this one: Increasing demand, declining major oilfeilds. At some point I hope this will become apparent to the ordinary gasoline consumer.

Probably not. Most people argue:

1. Gas companies are just being greedy!!!!

Well, first, of course they are, business are supposed to be greedy to make money. Back in the 1980s-90s, when oil was $10 a barrel, did they forget to be greedy or something? Obviously there is something else at play here, namely hundreds of billions of additional consumers and diminishing reserves.

2. Gas companies profits are out of control!!

Compared to other industries, gas companies profit margins are still low. Did you guys know that water utilities have posted better profit margins than the oil companies? Those damn water Companies!!!!

Just check this out for further reading http://mises.org/story/2940

As for your boycott, its not really a boycott its consumer choice, half of the supply/demand chart. You not wanting to pay $4 a gallon is a choice. If its not worth it to you then don't drive.

Fulltone74
05-20-2008, 08:01 PM
yep you are rite, (my bad)

and i think euro countries are doing the rite thing by heavy taxing on gasoline.......

but my point is that the oil co. is not thr problem with high gas price........is simply supply and demand...with a HUGE AMOUNT of speculation and trading

Fixed...

Starab
05-21-2008, 06:56 PM
Nobody talks about ETHANOL which is also a culprit
It is cutting MPG by 3-5

SonomaDriver
05-21-2008, 07:10 PM
VodkaG got it right on the nose. Oil companies don't set the price of crude...the market does based on supply and demand.

OPEC screws with us by refusing to up oil output...price goes up.
U.S. interest rates go down, dollar goes down, investors head to oil as a investment..price goes up.

No new U.S. refineries in 30 years yet the population is up about 100 million...hello?

The is zero room in the system for flexibility. Between supply issues, demand (China, India, Africa all up) and constrictions on refining, this is NO SURPRISE.

bimmerguy288
05-21-2008, 08:02 PM
Bashing Exxon is a popular sport, especially when gas hits over $4. I too would like to pay $2 instead of $4 but here are some facts about the reocrd profit Exxon made in the best year of its history, 2007, forget about the many many years in which they didn't make much:

Exxon in 2007:

1. Revenue: $390 billion ( for those who don't know what revenue is, it's the total sales, NOT profit)

2. Income tax : $30 billion ( Note: this is not the sales tax you pay at the pump, this is the income tax on Exxon's earnings)

3. Net income: $40 billion.

Before the the $30 billion in imcome tax, Exxon also paid $31 billion in sales-based tax.


OK, let's look at the $40 billion in net profit, it's HUGE! but it's from $390 billions of sales! it's about 10% of the revenue. Can we honestly say a 10% profit is "windfall"? Many many companies routinely make more than 10% net profit, some much more, if anyone cares, I can provide some names. Why is Exxon's 10% profit margin (in their best year) so evil? When Exxon pays dividends to its shareholders, using its already taxed earning, the shareholders are taxed again.

At the end of the day, the governments milk more from Exxon's business activities ( in forms of sales tax you pay at the pump, sale-based tax and income tax Exxon pays, dividend tax its shareholders pay) than Exxon makes.

BTW, in case you don't know, Exxon controls about 5% of the worldwide oil production and it has to pay higher and higher price for a lot of the crude it buys too. Don't lay the blame on Exxon, Exxon has little to do with gas going up to $4.


Go ahead, boycutt the oil companies, see if it works ( you already know the answer).

Why is the oil price so high? It's supply and demand, plus rampant oil future speculations by traders. We used to be by far the world's biggest oil buyer but recently, oil consumption of the emerging economies, for the first time, passed that of the U.S. All you have to do is to go to China to see how many cars are on the roads compared to 10 years ago, and many many more to come, that's just China. When more and more people are competing for the same rsources, the price has only one way to go, up.


Now, can anyone please explain to me why 10% profit in their best year is so evil? For full disclosure, I don't work for any oil companies, I used to own some stocks of oil companies but sold too early.

I just feel it's silly and unfair to bash the oil companies when they achieve a 10% profit margin in their best year while so many other buisnesses also make 10% profit or more year in year out.

Z4 Steve
05-21-2008, 09:09 PM
The US has a lot of oil but because of enviromental wackos we can't drill for it. People felt at the time it was cheaper to import oil than to drill for it in the US. There is a ton of oil in Alaska, enough to take us off the Arab market. We need to get off the Arab market. Just take a look at how the Saudi's told Bush to pound sand. If it wasn't for oil then we wouldn't care about what happens in the Middle East.

cjwheeling
05-21-2008, 09:20 PM
We could try to minimize consumption? Honestly, these boycotts that pop up via email and board campaigns never accomplish much that I've heard of other than getting people to feel that their little contribution to "get the oil companies" actually has an effect.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

This is very similar to what happened in the 70s. (I know it was an embargo, but the result was the same) In response, automakers stopped pushing out 10MPG vehicles because no one was buying them anymore. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Toyota</st1:City>, Honda and Nissan became the major players that they are in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US </st1:country-region>primarily because they actually had somewhat reliable, fuel efficient vehicles available to sell.<O:p
<O:p
Watch what happens over the next few years; Honda and <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pToyota</ST1:p</st1:City> will probably take the lead in producing alternative energy vehicles or good hybrids available for cheap prices within the next two years. The current hybrids were a toe in the water; now that we know that they are becoming accepted in the mainstream; count on seeing them become the more normal transportation vehicle.
<O:p</O:p
Will it matter if gas is $10/gallon if your car gets 75MPG?

Z4 Steve
05-21-2008, 09:39 PM
We could try to minimize consumption? Honestly, these boycotts that pop up via email and board campaigns never accomplish much that I've heard of other than getting people to feel that their little contribution to "get the oil companies" actually has an effect.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

This is very similar to what happened in the 70s. (I know it was an embargo, but the result was the same) In response, automakers stopped pushing out 10MPG vehicles because no one was buying them anymore. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Toyota</st1:City>, Honda and Nissan became the major players that they are in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US </st1:country-region>primarily because they actually had somewhat reliable, fuel efficient vehicles available to sell.<O:p
<O:p
Watch what happens over the next few years; Honda and <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pToyota</ST1:p</st1:City> will probably take the lead in producing alternative energy vehicles or good hybrids available for cheap prices within the next two years. The current hybrids were a toe in the water; now that we know that they are becoming accepted in the mainstream; count on seeing them become the more normal transportation vehicle.
<O:p</O:p
Will it matter if gas is $10/gallon if your car gets 75MPG?

I remember the gas crunch in the 70s. Many people thought the world was coming to an end. I wasn't old enough to drive but I remember my day complaining about gas prices. He sold off the Ford LTD and bought a Honda Civic.

cjwheeling
05-21-2008, 09:44 PM
I remember the gas crunch in the 70s. Many people thought the world was coming to an end. I wasn't old enough to drive but I remember my day complaining about gas prices. He sold off the Ford LTD and bought a Honda Civic.
Exactly... I remember odd/even days.

BM2W
05-22-2008, 11:20 AM
Yup, supply & demand. Relatively static supply, increasing demand (e.g. India, China), but then again we're paying for this . . . Saudi Prince Al Waleed's diamond covered SL600

The Arabs are screwing with the West for Iraq, etc . . . . .

bimmerguy288
05-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Yup, supply & demand. Relatively static supply, increasing demand (e.g. India, China), but then again we're paying for this . . . Saudi Prince Al Waleed's diamond covered SL600

The Arabs are screwing with the West for Iraq, etc . . . . .

It's not just the West, the Chinese, the Indians, the Japanese, and many others pay pretty much the same price for crude. It's a world commodity,

Nick325xiT 5spd
05-22-2008, 01:09 PM
Well, it has happened. Premium for my X 5 just hit $4. I was waiting for this to happen and then start a boycott of the biggest profiteers, Exxon Mobile.

I know that may effect some of my friends on this list who work for Exxon. I am sorry.

My boycott of Exxon Mobile would be a crusade until they reduce the price of premium to $2. It can be done. Gas prices have little to do with the supply and demand of oil. A barrel of oil is produced in the UAE for $1 (including the all the overheads like the private jets, harems, etc.) The $128 a barrel is simply profit making by the oil companies.

If there is a general boycott of Exxon Mobile...they will reduce the price. Or if we behave the way big oil excepts us to behave (desensitized) then don't be surprised with gas becomes $5

Kind regards,

GW

BTW, Iíll start using Sams $3.75 for premium. Not that I think Wal-Mart is any better than Exxon, but it is ten bucks cheaper per thankful.
Basically, you're a ****ing idiot.

Adi
05-22-2008, 01:22 PM
...rampant oil future speculations by traders.

And here you hit the nail on the head. The US$ price of oil has doubled within the last 12 months. Demand has not doubled within those 12 months and neither has the supply halved...nor any combination of the two... to suggest this is a pure (or even mainly a) supply/demand issue. The main driver is money market sentiment (note: not market forces) driven by panicking market traders flailing around as a result of the credit crunch and the crashing dollar (leading them to move their money out of US$ and other 'soft' investments and into commodities like oil, gold, etc).

dakarm
05-22-2008, 06:22 PM
The US has a lot of oil but because of enviromental wackos we can't drill for it. People felt at the time it was cheaper to import oil than to drill for it in the US. There is a ton of oil in Alaska, enough to take us off the Arab market. We need to get off the Arab market. Just take a look at how the Saudi's told Bush to pound sand. If it wasn't for oil then we wouldn't care about what happens in the Middle East.

if i recall correctly canada is the #1 supplier of oil to the US with Mexico #2 and UAE/OPEC? close #3.

bimmerguy288
05-22-2008, 06:27 PM
And here you hit the nail on the head. The US$ price of oil has doubled within the last 12 months. Demand has not doubled within those 12 months and neither has the supply halved...nor any combination of the two... to suggest this is a pure (or even mainly a) supply/demand issue. The main driver is money market sentiment (note: not market forces) driven by panicking market traders flailing around as a result of the credit crunch and the crashing dollar (leading them to move their money out of US$ and other 'soft' investments and into commodities like oil, gold, etc).

Agreed. If there has to be a "windfall profit" tax ( not that I am in favor of one), it should be levied on the profits made by the oil future trader/investors, not the oil companies that actually do all the work and make 10% profit in a very good year.

Think about that, Exxon made $40 billion in net profit out of $390 billion in sales. It paid $30 billion in income tax, $31 billion in sales-based tax, and its shareholders get taxed again when they receive dividends. When is it going to be enough? The other day I was watchig my esteemed Senator Ben Cardin from Maryland on CNBC, he said the Congress should have a say in what the oil companies do with their after tax profit. How about the Congress should have a say in what kind of cars we are allowed to buy with our after tax $$$? Oh, wait, this sounded familiar, it's called communism. How do I know? I grew up in a communist country where people are buying more and more cars (one of the reasons for higher gas price). They aren't that communistic anymore.

There are plenty of blames to go around for high gas price but oil companies are not the main cause of it. They are just easy political targets for some politicians and an ill-informed public that know little about oil prices, all they see is what they pay at the pump and all they hear from the media is the oil companies make so much so much so they get angry at the oil companies, which dare to make 10% profit and operate in places where rebels may attack their facilities/employees, in places where some nuts would cut off their employees' heads and put the footages on the internet, in places where some governments may decide to confisticate their business if they want to nationalize oil and in places where hurricanes can knock down their oil rigs.

I pay the guy who cuts my grass $50 per cut, if he nets $5, he makes a "windfall" profit, according to the logic of some people. Hey, at least he is not working in a dangerous environment and he doesn't have to worry that his head may get cut off. BTW, the OP was also bashing Walmart, another easy political target. Poor Walmart make only $3 in net profit for every $100 of stuff it sells. Yet it's another evil corporation. I don't want to be in business that only has a 3% profit margin, let alone dealing with all the hassles from stupid politicians and interest groups.

mullman
05-22-2008, 06:43 PM
OK, let's look at the $40 billion in net profit, it's HUGE! but it's from $390 billions of sales! it's about 10% of the revenue. Can we honestly say a 10% profit is "windfall"? Many many companies routinely make more than 10% net profit, some much more, if anyone cares, I can provide some names. Why is Exxon's 10% profit margin (in their best year) so evil?

Great point.
As someone who has run several small businesses (with greater margins), I 100% agree, but you will not get the rabble to understand.
10% a 'windfall' profit margin - PLEASE!
Also, many funds own energy stocks, does the OP's 401K or investments own such? Probably.

I have a dear relative who bought a new F250 crew cab last year.
He does not have a boat, or camper, or tow anything, just wanted a big new truck.
I have received a half dozen emails from him about boycotting this or that fuel company, and I shake my head and hit delete.

For the price of fuel to lower, either the supply must increase, or the demand must decrease.
Global demand is at an all time high.
We have not built a new refinery in this country since the late 1970s.

This week I have been riding a vehicle that gets 75mpg, doing my part and having a blast.
Last weekend I chose a rental car that got 45 mpg.

I would be interested in what the OP has done versus just posting a shallow, short-sighted post on an internet chat room...

bimmerguy288
05-22-2008, 07:34 PM
Here are some of the big U.S. companies that have a higher profit margin (in their last fiscal year) than the evil 10% that the oil companies made in their best year:

Microsoft : 28%
Intel: 17%
Apple: 15%
P & G: 14%
MacDonalds: 11%
Pfizer: 16%
Goldman Sachs: 23%
Coke: 21%
Pepsi: 14%
Google: 25%
Disney: 12%
Berkshire Hathaway: 10.5%
and many many banks make 20% routinely, but not lately.

Now, should we boycutt these companies? Should they pay "windfall" profit tax? Should the Congress dictate what they should do with their after tax earnings too?

Adi
05-23-2008, 02:39 AM
Here are some of the big U.S. companies that have a higher profit margin (in their last fiscal year) than the evil 10% that the oil companies made in their best year:

Microsoft : 28%
Intel: 17%
Apple: 15%
P & G: 14%
MacDonalds: 11%
Pfizer: 16%
Goldman Sachs: 23%
Coke: 21%
Pepsi: 14%
Google: 25%
Disney: 12%
Berkshire Hathaway: 10.5%
and many many banks make 20% routinely, but not lately.

Now, should we boycutt these companies? Should they pay "windfall" profit tax? Should the Congress dictate what they should do with their after tax earnings too?

Actually, maybe the OP has a point. I notice Microsoft is at the top of that list and EVERYONE KNOWS that they are evil. :fingers:

Seriously... take a look at the oil futures business and how it has developed over the last few years. The volume of transactions has increased dramatically as the finance houses have got into speculating about price trends, ie created a new game in which to gamble pension fund money. Same is happening in other commodities like foodstuffs - look what is happening there eg: rice, which (if I remember correctly) has also doubled in price in the last 12 months. IMHO the oil price is building up into a classic market speculation bubble - which will burst.

Ganulin
05-23-2008, 01:21 PM
What about personal bugeting. I cant afford a smart cart so i just fill my car up once a payday. I have no problem carpooling and or walking to work. My wife goes between NYC and Boston for her work all year long. A train and buss pass for a month costs about the same as one tank of gass. Together last year i think we spent around $900 on gass for 2 cars and some 500$ on commuting passes. that beat the $5k+ from the year before. I think the gass prises are high but thats cause i dont make much. then again i found a way to not spend much either and it has made family time for the wife and i. The days of the sunday drive are comming back i can see it.:thumbup:

uncle ken
05-23-2008, 01:36 PM
It's nice to see so many well-informed answers!

In the late 1970s as the oil fields of Texas and Oklahoma began to dry up, USA oil imports rose quickly. Work began on processes to convert the vast oil reserves in the oil shale deposits of CO and WY. The oil crisis ( a distribution crisis, not a shortage) of 1972 woke everyone up.

Seeing a threat to their newly acquired cash flow, OPEC responded by upping production. Oil fell below $10.00 a barrel. Many small exploration companies went out of business in Texas, unable to sustain themselves at that price. Interest on the conversion of shale to oil ground to a halt.

Meanwhile, over the next 30 years many Third World economies finally came of age. LIfe spans lengthened and family size dwindled in India and China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUwS1uAdUcI

Fast forward to 2007/8. World oil production is capped at 85 million barrels a day. But demand has now risen to 86.5 million barrels per day. Inventories fall as demand exceeds supply. Oops!

The United States [Bush] begged Saudis for more oil. But look at it from the Saudis' point of view: with 4% of the world's population the US consumes 20% of the oil produced. The Saudii oil fields are also finite, OPEC can no longer arbitrarily increase production as it did 30 years ago. Meanwhile all that imported oil results in a net cash outflow of $750 billion dollars annually from the USA. Currently we consume 21 million barrels a day of which 16 million is imported.

So what do the Demagogues of DC do? Call the oil execs to the Hill for another spanking. Idiots. Accusing Exxon of fixing prices ignores the fact that Exxon is only responsible for 2% of the world's oil production. 70% comes from state owned companies like Pemex in Mexico and their cousins in Venezuela, Russia and so on.

It's simple supply and demand. The only way to get relief is to increase domestic oil production.

There are large oil deposits off both coasts - untouchable due to environmental regulation. There are vast fields in the seas off Alaska, ANWR, ditto. The oil contained in the oil shale would suffice for another 200 years Ditto ditto ditto. Half the oil we burn goes to stationary power plants. all of which could be converted to nukes in a decade but ditto ditto ditto. Refineries are impossible to construct ditto ad nauseum...

In the long term alternate power sources will be developed but that ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes. And all the solar cells, windmills and tidal generators won't make a significant dent in our needs. Either we drill our vast resources or the American Dream is about to turn in to a nightmare. Of course, this is exactly what the greenies want... The British Empire was felled by Socialism, America defeated the USSR in the Cold War but now we are going off the cliff for a few f***ing caribou and some polar bears that are doing just fine.

The Left has put on a Green Suit and is bent on running Capitalism and Individual Liberty into the ground.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/21/AR2008052102428.html

In conclusion: oil prices are not going to go down again. The effects will resonate throughout society. The days of cheap air travel are over. Groceries and other goods that are trucked across the continent will cost much more. Our standard of living is likely to deteriorate significantly over the next few decades. Nobody knows the future but I suspect the chances that Congress will act appropriately rather than engaging in more histrionics are slim to none.



The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it.
H. L. Mencken

mullman
05-23-2008, 01:41 PM
good work, uncle ken!

bimmerguy288
05-23-2008, 03:52 PM
The greenies say we can't drill off the coast of Florida. Guess what? the Chinese oil companies are coming to drill near Cuba. There isn't a thing we can do about it. The people who want to put in all the restrictions are often the same ones that complain the loudest in a silly fashion when gas price goes up.

e36m34life
05-23-2008, 05:18 PM
How about we hunt all the major greenies down, lock them all up, and meanwhile start drilling where oil is known to exist here in the US.

While they are locked up, secretly feed them polar bear meat that is disguised as beef from cows, and only tell them what they were really eating after a year has passed. :D And periodically send them pictures of the oil rigs and refinieries being built on the lands and waters they so dearly and stupidly tryed to stop from happening.

Fu**ing greenies

akhbhaat
05-23-2008, 06:42 PM
How about this one: Increasing demand, declining major oilfeilds. At some point I hope this will become apparent to the ordinary gasoline consumer.You're trying to introduce sense to a fuel price thread. Better stop before it gets ugly. :rofl:

This topic frequently appears in PoliSci, and I invest a significant amount of time in them there. I don't feel like cross posting, but if you want to see some (relatively) serious, leveled discussions on the matter, go over there and find one of the various oil threads on the front page.

JBZ
05-23-2008, 07:38 PM
And here you hit the nail on the head. The US$ price of oil has doubled within the last 12 months. Demand has not doubled within those 12 months and neither has the supply halved...nor any combination of the two... to suggest this is a pure (or even mainly a) supply/demand issue. The main driver is money market sentiment (note: not market forces) driven by panicking market traders flailing around as a result of the credit crunch and the crashing dollar (leading them to move their money out of US$ and other 'soft' investments and into commodities like oil, gold, etc).

Like it or not this is the real answer. Until the market is safe, traders and investors are betting on commodities for a safe haven against a bear market and devalued dollar. Hey it wasn't a shortage that led to the tech stock rise and fall and neither was the housing rapid rise due to a shortage. Investors have no place to put money now and what they did to tech stocks and housing they are doing to commodities. Not to be doom and gloom but this is leading up to the perfect financial storm. For americans who are just living on the edge, this could be the straw that breaks a lot of peoples back.

rye
05-24-2008, 01:22 AM
Invest in oil...you'll at least get some of your money back. :D

Z4 Steve
05-24-2008, 01:32 AM
Exactly... I remember odd/even days.


Me too.

Z4 Steve
05-24-2008, 01:35 AM
Did anyone see on the news when the CEO of Shell told Maxine Waters that the reason gas is high is because the government will not let the oil companies drill for oil or build new refineries? Then Maxine Waters let it slip out the the Democratic plan is to one day have the government run the oil companies.

bimmerguy288
05-24-2008, 05:41 AM
Like it or not this is the real answer. Until the market is safe, traders and investors are betting on commodities for a safe haven against a bear market and devalued dollar. Hey it wasn't a shortage that led to the tech stock rise and fall and neither was the housing rapid rise due to a shortage. Investors have no place to put money now and what they did to tech stocks and housing they are doing to commodities. Not to be doom and gloom but this is leading up to the perfect financial storm. For americans who are just living on the edge, this could be the straw that breaks a lot of peoples back.



It's really a combination of a different factors: stagnant output (man-made by OPEC and nutty regulations), increase demand worldwide, rampant speculation/investment by traders/hedgefunds, falling dollars and some other stuff.

Everytime the gas price goes up, the idiots in the Congress would haul the oil companies executives in for grilling, to put up a dog and pony show and to score political points. Some of them don't even realize how stupid they sound when they open their mouth. Same thing when they grill the Federal Reserve Chairmen. They just make themselves look like a fool.

Evlengr
05-24-2008, 08:24 AM
Here are some of the big U.S. companies that have a higher profit margin (in their last fiscal year) than the evil 10% that the oil companies made in their best year:

Microsoft : 28%
Intel: 17%
Apple: 15%
P & G: 14%
MacDonalds: 11%
Pfizer: 16%
Goldman Sachs: 23%
Coke: 21%
Pepsi: 14%
Google: 25%
Disney: 12%
Berkshire Hathaway: 10.5%
and many many banks make 20% routinely, but not lately.

Now, should we boycutt these companies? Should they pay "windfall" profit tax? Should the Congress dictate what they should do with their after tax earnings too?

The difference you fail to mention is that when google raises it prices or apple or Disney they don't impact the price of food, clothing, medical supplies, etc..... The others you mention are not necessities and do not have a trickle down effect on other goods. So yes they should be held to a higher level of accountability.

Some round about comments:


There was a movie years ago with George C. Scott called, "The Formula". He is the CEO of a major oil company similar to Exxon. At one point he is questioned about the "Arabs" and the Oil business. His reply, "Son we are the Arabs, we are not in the oil business we are in the oil shortage business.

Another thing I find odd is that Condoleeza Rice had an oil tanker named after her by Chevron in appreciation for her work with them. No one finds it a conflict of interest this same women is making global decisions with oil companies on behalf of the American public? And now mya run for VP. Her and half the people in office should recuse themselves.

My point..Look at the whole picture.

BM2W
05-24-2008, 05:37 PM
re: nationalizing US oil companies . . . Maxine Waters (and the rest of the Congressional bozos) should go crap in her hat - PeMex's output has declined 43% since being nationalized, and Mexico may soon have to begin importing oil to meet domestic needs:yikes:

Politician - fromt the Greek - poli, meaning "many", and ticks, small, blood-sucking pararsites. We should fire them all and start ove, with term limits. JMO.

gtxragtop
05-25-2008, 05:12 AM
Speculators are driving the price of crude up on world markets due to increased demand, political instability, and probably to some extent good old fashioned greed. Oil is traded on world markets in US dollars. US Dollars are shrinking in value on world currency exchanges - partly due to the financial mess brought on by the US Mortgage meltdown. Its a perfect storm so to speak and it has hit us right where it hurts most - the pocket book. Don't look for this to turn around quickly. Yes the Oil Companies are reaping the benefits - particularly those that are pumping crude and getting the $125 a barrel the market bears... But the Oil Companies don't set the market price. The market does.

BINGO ++1 :mad:

Pinecone
05-27-2008, 06:57 AM
1) In January gas prices (at the pump) fell 13 cents per gallon. Why? Because consumption fell 1%. How much less driving is 1%?

If you drive 15,000 miles per year, 1% is reducing your driving by a whopping 150 miles per year. Divided by 50 weeks (taking into account a vacation where you don't drive, but mainly to make the math easier), means driving 3 miles PER WEEK less. Make one less trip to the store. Make one trip that hits two things versus separate trips. VERY minor change in driving habits.

2) When was the last time you checked your tire pressures? I forget the exact numbers, but it is something like if everyone in the US would check and set their tire pressure properly we wuld reduce our gas consumption by some 5% or so. WITHOUT CHANGING OUR DRIVING HABITS. Just putting air in the tires.

3) How many people do you see accelerating to a red light because they are looking far enough ahead and thinking. That would probably reduce gas consumption by several percent by just looking ahead and driving smarter.

jesimmons
05-27-2008, 09:47 AM
The US has a lot of oil but because of enviromental wackos we can't drill for it. People felt at the time it was cheaper to import oil than to drill for it in the US. There is a ton of oil in Alaska, enough to take us off the Arab market. We need to get off the Arab market. Just take a look at how the Saudi's told Bush to pound sand. If it wasn't for oil then we wouldn't care about what happens in the Middle East.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. However, correct me if I'm wrong... The US imports very little crude oil from Saudi Arabia. Most US oil imports come from Canada and Venezuela. We care about what the Middle East does because they are sitting on the vast reserves that are <b>currently</b> supplying a large percentage of the worldwide demand.

I've also seen reports that The US is sitting on shale oil deposits that dwarf the amount of oil the Saudi's, Kuwaiti's, Iraqi's, etc. have combined. Research the Bakken Formation (covering Colorado, North dakota, Wyoming). Problem is, at previous market prices, it was too expensive to produce. Eventually, if the US does not start producing its own oil reserves in concert with switching to alternative fuels (and I don't mean food-based Ethanol - thats a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO), we will be bankrupted by our own (Government's) short sightedness.

uncle ken
05-27-2008, 10:04 AM
However, correct me if I'm wrong... The US imports very little crude oil from Saudi Arabia. Most US oil imports come from Canada and Venezuela.
Based upon data from the U.S.Energy Information Administration, the U.S. produces 5.1 million barrels (34%) of crude oil per day while importing 10.1 barrels (66%) per day. The top five countries we import from on a daily basis are:

Canada - 1.8 million barrels
Mexico - 1.6 million barrels
Saudi Arabia - 1.4 million barrels
Venezuela - 1.1 million barrels
Nigeria - 1.0 million barrels

2/08 figures

mf86
05-27-2008, 05:52 PM
Oil prices are not going to go down. Uncle Ken pretty much said it best. The only way to truly lower oil prices is to lower demand--that means doing things like finding alternative energies, etc. The world is developing, and the world needs more energy to run. Unless we find a better way soon, we're going to be in for some interesting times....

jesimmons
05-29-2008, 12:14 PM
I found this article to be most informative.

Read it and :cry: : http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8878