New Camaro vs 1 series?

[superstock]

Any thoughts on the new camaro? I know pricing has not yet been released but the car is definitely attention getting. I figure it would undercut a 1 series by about 5-7k while offering 300-420hp and a real LSD and independent rear (no Mustang solid rear).

The car weighs 3800lbs in SS trim so it is not a lightweight car (not that a 1 series is) but the 6.2L LS3 from the corvette can help move it quite quick I'm sure.

So, what do you think?

[phantombmw]

I hear they will throw in a free mullet as well with purchase, not sure if that is true or not though.

Personally I don't think they will compete at all, I doubt the same buyers are looking at a BMW and a Camaro and comparison shopping, different market.

[lo-tek]

a mullet? I'm *so* there.

[cjwheeling]

I hear they will throw in a free mullet as well with purchase, not sure if that is true or not though.

Personally I don't think they will compete at all, I doubt the same buyers are looking at a BMW and a Camaro and comparison shopping, different market.
I'll be looking at both. Camaro's have always been one of the fastest cars on the road, but they have mostly been some of the lamest designed cars on the road.

the new one might rectify that.

[blueguydotcom]

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.

[cjwheeling]

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.
Actually, the 2001/2002 Z28/SS Camaros were very competent sports cars. Unfortunately, they were relatively ugly and priced themselves out of their market when fully equipped.

[One&Only]

Actually, the 2001/2002 Z28/SS Camaros were very competent sports cars. Unfortunately, they were relatively ugly and priced themselves out of their market when fully equipped.

I think that's what Blueguydotcom just said "This car won't live up to GM's PR."

[sycd]

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.

I had a Camaro Z28, Mustang GT, and now a 335i :eeps: Maybe I'm just weird but I keep an open mind when it comes to cars.

Today I'd probably buy a 69-70 as a week-end/hobby car though.

[BlackJetE90]

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.

+1

I would be mythed about someone cross shopping the two.

Camero is rumored to be priced at Mustang prices, so that will be its competition.

[BlackJetE90]

I would only get one if it was a transformer.

[BlackJetE90]

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.

Well for what its worth, the Camero SS just did 8:20 around the ring.

Beating cars like: E46 M3, 335i, Audi S5

[jkp1187]

+1

I would be mythed about someone cross shopping the two.

Camero is rumored to be priced at Mustang prices, so that will be its competition.

"Mythed"?

:confused:

[blueguydotcom]

Well for what its worth, the Camero SS just did 8:20 around the ring.

Beating cars like: E46 M3, 335i, Audi S5

I sincerely doubt it.

[Excitmnt94]

i think it looks great. the powerplant is very proven. im just worried about interior, chassis tuning, and overall fit and finish. i will be looking at one just to see it in person when they are released.

[phantombmw]

I sincerely doubt it.

look it up, it did do it in 8.20. :p

[Qbrozen]

look it up, it did do it in 8.20. :p

Awesome. A whopping 2 seconds quicker than a Cobalt SS. I'm impressed. :dunno:

Am I dissing the camaro? No. But I think this little factoid should illustrate that there is much more to car than lap times, 0-60, or 1/4 mile.

[superstock]

How did i know Blackjet and blueguy would be the first to downplay the camaro?

I will wait to pass judgement till I actually see, sit and drive the Camaro but if it is priced at 30k-32k or so for the SS it will definitely steal some BMW sales. Perhaps not from the more expensive M3 but definitely from the 135/335 cars. It depends on how it feels. It is heavy (so are the 1 and 3) but much more powerful with more than a 100hp/100ft lbs advantage. If the car handles (with a LSD it at least has the right equipment) then it could swipe some people stretching to try and get a BMW. At close to 40k for a well optioned 135 (45k for 335) there is definitely room in the low 30k segment.

It will appeal more to the ethusiast, racer and yes mullet heads who like their races 1/4 mile at a time. It would be nice to throw the car right onto the track without having to worry about upgrading intercoolers, oil coolers and radiators (thanks BMW!) Don't discount the mullet heads either; don't you think the new twin turbo BMW engine brought some mullet heads into the BMW fold?

I do think that the car is the right car at the wrong time though. If the 300hp V6 can get high 20s for MPG it should be ok but if the fuel economy stinks it will sit as soon as the impulse buyers are gone.

[superstock]

Awesome. A whopping 2 seconds quicker than a Cobalt SS. I'm impressed. :dunno:

Am I dissing the camaro? No. But I think this little factoid should illustrate that there is much more to car than lap times, 0-60, or 1/4 mile.

You drive the Cobalt SS? It is sick. I took a yellow SS out last week and it felt faster than my 335i. Definitely confidence inspiring and you actually wanted to drive fast in it. For the price they are asking it is a screaming deal.

And the seats are awesome. It is the perfect cheap track car; who cares what the interior looks like.

[Qbrozen]

You drive the Cobalt SS? It is sick. I took a yellow SS out last week and it felt faster than my 335i. Definitely confidence inspiring and you actually wanted to drive fast in it. For the price they are asking it is a screaming deal.

And the seats are awesome. It is the perfect cheap track car; who cares what the interior looks like.

I don't get it. If all you care about is speed, why are you driving a bimmer?

The Cobalt SS is a great performance bargain, no doubt. But could I tolerate driving it day in and day out? Nope. The near-luxury and luxury segments exist for a reason. Some people want more than bragging rights. I do care what the interior looks like, and more importantly what it feels like. I gotta be in it for 20 hours a week, so why wouldn't I?

It is the same reason I didn't buy a Mustang GT or a Z28 back in the day. I thought they were great ... until I drove them. Flimsy pieces of crap that went like hell.

I'm not judging the Camaro yet. But let's at least have realistic expectations. We're talking about car manufacturers, not magicians. If a buyer wants performance AND luxury, they gotta pay for it.

[superstock]

No such thing as a jack of all trades unfortunately. BMW isn't bad at it but in my opinion in comes off half a$$ in both regards. My 335i is too quiet, heavy and uninvolving to be a sports car and no where near soft or luxury enough to be a luxury car. You get something in the middle of both which did not appeal to me. I unfortunately had to learn this the hard way after living with the car. I just don't have any desire to drive the car; it is an appliance to me. A very good, top of the line appliance (no Camry) but not emotionally involving. Initially i thought it was sporty enough to please me but i was wrong; lesson learned.

And yes, i did look at a 135 but also found it lacking. The very slight edge in sportiness is not worth the money they want. I am going with a full sport car and gas saving beater. Best of both worlds. No need for luxury for me.

[superstock]

I gotta be in it for 20 hours a week, so why wouldn't I?



You need a job closer to home.

[Chris90]

If the 300hp V6 can get high 20s for MPG it should be ok but if the fuel economy stinks it will sit as soon as the impulse buyers are gone.

They announced MPG already for the V6, it's 26 mpg highway.

I think the car looks pretty sharp, but I don't see many cross*****ping the two.

[cjwheeling]

I don't get it. If all you care about is speed, why are you driving a bimmer?

Ironic that most people on this board say they bought the BMW for the performance, not the luxury. I'm primarily talking about the 3/5 series posters which I believe make up the majority of the posters here.


I'm not judging the Camaro yet. But let's at least have realistic expectations. We're talking about car manufacturers, not magicians. If a buyer wants performance AND luxury, they gotta pay for it.
Unless a manufacturer actually does make a car that meets the needs. Remember, this post was about the Camaro vs 1 series. The 1 series is the least luxurious, and arguably the most sporty series made by BMW. (M3 as a possible exception). I know it's silly to try to compare them now; but I'll bet that people shopping in the 1 series price range will be taking a serious look at the Camaro. I know I will.

[Qbrozen]

Ironic that most people on this board say they bought the BMW for the performance, not the luxury.

I don't think I've met those people, but, when you do run into them, you can just reply "go buy a motorcycle," because that's what I would say. Or, if you are afraid of bikes, get/buy a kit car (V8 Cobra anyone?). It will kick the bimmer's butt in pure performance.

The 1 series is the least luxurious, and arguably the most sporty series made by BMW. (M3 as a possible exception).

Yes, but even BMW's least luxurious car feels more solid and better put together than anything Chevy has ever offered within $10k of it.

I know it's silly to try to compare them now; but I'll bet that people shopping in the 1 series price range will be taking a serious look at the Camaro. I know I will.

Of course, saying you will take a "serious" look is really pushing it at this point. It ain't serious until you drive it and love it.

[Qbrozen]

No such thing as a jack of all trades unfortunately. BMW isn't bad at it but in my opinion in comes off half a$$ in both regards.

Well, you answered your own complaint. It comes down to who produces the best compromise within your budget and tolerances. It all can be boiled down quite mathematically. I'm sure there is an equation there somewhere. Performance + luxury quotient + price = X. Camaro: 8+3+30=41. 135: 6+5+30=41. :dunno:

Just making stuff up here. I'm bored, what can I say? :rolleyes:

[e30e]

I love the lack of snob appeal the camaro lacks for many on this site to take it seriously as a 1series competitor. The camaro is better looking, the interior looks a lot better than anything the f-body had, it has a great suspension, and its get pretty good fuel economy. Plus its a rwd and its small block Chevy which will not over heat like your twin turbo guys do and it will have tons of after market stuff at a fraction of the cost. The motor itself will last forever, sure there will be questions on build quality, but our bimmers are not exactly the greatest right now and GM's quality has improved at a much higher rate than ours has. Anyone considering the 135i and SS will definitely look at those things and on paper and most likely after the hype dies gm incentives will give this car a HUGE advantage.....



Oh yea its not a bmw and lacks the badge, the exact reason to buy it!

Good grief!!!

[phantombmw]

saying their build quality has increased more than BMW as of late is a bit mis-leading. If they were horrible before and had even a slight increase in build quality, statistically that would be a big jump. BMW quality has been historically pretty good, so it isn't really possible for them to make a big jump in build quality to compare them. Plus a chip for a 135 is anywhere from 100-1200 bucks for pretty large WHP gains. Not arguing just playing devils advocate. I still think they are meant for a different demographic. I owned a 97 Z28 and liked it, but at the time I didn't have the means to get a BMW (at least one that I wanted). It was a fun car at the time, plenty of power and never had any problems, but it just lacks the refinement of a BMW. I could never go back to driving a Camaro after having several BMW's, while I still have respect for the car and what it is, it just isn't the image I'm trying to portray. Call me a snob I guess.

[emPoWaH]

I look forward to seeing one in person. GM tends to be quite good at chassis tuning, judging by the CTS, Cobalt SS, SRX, and even the Acadia crossover, and since this is essentially an revised and improved G8 - a car universally lauded for its ride and handling - I don't think this Camaro will embarrass itself on the road.

The design and the specs are thoroughly modern... standard limited-slip diff, direct-injection V6, independent rear suspension, available four-piston Brembo brakes, and competition and sport modes for stability control. Of course it's not a luxury car; it's a Chevrolet, but at the same time, it's far more interesting than the mainstream boxes coming from Toyota and Honda. Luxury brands shouldn't be the only ones with interesting cars, and I'd love to see more of these distinctive inexpensive cars over in the US. The MINI is a start...

[e30e]

saying their build quality has increased more than BMW as of late is a bit mis-leading. If they were horrible before and had even a slight increase in build quality, statistically that would be a big jump. BMW quality has been historically pretty good, so it isn't really possible for them to make a big jump in build quality to compare them. Plus a chip for a 135 is anywhere from 100-1200 bucks for pretty large WHP gains. Not arguing just playing devils advocate. I still think they are meant for a different demographic. I owned a 97 Z28 and liked it, but at the time I didn't have the means to get a BMW (at least one that I wanted). It was a fun car at the time, plenty of power and never had any problems, but it just lacks the refinement of a BMW. I could never go back to driving a Camaro after having several BMW's, while I still have respect for the car and what it is, it just isn't the image I'm trying to portray. Call me a snob I guess.


For $1200 you know how much stuff that buys for small block chevy's..... and you know its alot more than a tune.

This camaro I believe (while I could be wrong) will blow all of the camaros of the past away in terms of everything.

[emPoWaH]

saying their build quality has increased more than BMW as of late is a bit mis-leading. If they were horrible before and had even a slight increase in build quality, statistically that would be a big jump. BMW quality has been historically pretty good, so it isn't really possible for them to make a big jump in build quality to compare them. Plus a chip for a 135 is anywhere from 100-1200 bucks for pretty large WHP gains. Not arguing just playing devils advocate. I still think they are meant for a different demographic. I owned a 97 Z28 and liked it, but at the time I didn't have the means to get a BMW (at least one that I wanted). It was a fun car at the time, plenty of power and never had any problems, but it just lacks the refinement of a BMW. I could never go back to driving a Camaro after having several BMW's, while I still have respect for the car and what it is, it just isn't the image I'm trying to portray. Call me a snob I guess.

I guess I never grew up in a period when the Camaro had an image problem, or any image at all, for that matter...

I was still a kid when the F-bodies were around. To me, the 2010 Camaro is a thoroughly modern, almost futuristic, techy, reinterpreted version of the quintessential 21st century American sports car. :eeps:

[adc]

Isn't the new Camaro basically a 2 door version of the G8 - mechanically speaking?

Not saying this is bad at all - just that it will perform, from any point of view, like a 200 lbs lighter version of the G8. And I'm not so sure about the lighter bit...

I think if I wanted to buy one of these rumbling puppies, I might go for the practicality of the 4 door G8, especially if it won't be loosing anything in the performance category. :dunno:

[emPoWaH]

Isn't the new Camaro basically a 2 door version of the G8 - mechanically speaking?

Not saying this is bad at all - just that it will perform, from any point of view, like a 200 lbs lighter version of the G8. And I'm not so sure about the lighter bit...

I think if I wanted to buy one of these rumbling puppies, I might go for the practicality of the 4 door G8, especially if it won't be loosing anything in the performance category. :dunno:

The Camaro V6 manual is 3741 lbs, the G8 V6 base (auto) is 3885 lbs. The Camaro does have 45 more horsepower.

The V8s are a similar story... the G8 GT has ~360 hp, and the Camaro V8 auto has ~400 hp. Both have cylinder deactivation. The Camaro V8 manual doesn't, and it has another 20 more horses.

[phantombmw]

I guess I never grew up in a period when the Camaro had an image problem, or any image at all, for that matter...

I was still a kid when the F-bodies were around. To me, the 2010 Camaro is a thoroughly modern, almost futuristic, techy, reinterpreted version of the quintessential 21st century American sports car. :eeps:

To me there wasn't any element of "class" about it. It suited my means at the time as I was only 20 years old, I just can't take any *professional* adults seriously that drive one I guess, plus the fact that I despise retro styling. Notice all American auto makers can't come up with any new original designs, so they have to fall back on the success they had many moons ago and hope people will ignite the flame of love with it again. I just think it speaks tons about the american auto industry as a whole, nothing new or innovative coming out, at least not in the Chevy side. I do think Caddy has done better for themselves, but they still have the "I'm an old man" stigma surrounding the brand.

[adc]

The Camaro V6 manual is 3741 lbs, the G8 V6 base (auto) is 3885 lbs. The Camaro does have 45 more horsepower.

The V8s are a similar story... the G8 GT has ~360 hp, and the Camaro V8 auto has ~400 hp. Both have cylinder deactivation. The Camaro V8 manual doesn't, and it has another 20 more horses.

Well for one thing, why would I want the V6 versions of either one? :dunno: Anyway, they're 140lbs apart, my guess was right on the money.

The G8 has a 400+ BHP version too - the GXP I think it's called. Let's wait until published stats & numbers as well as independent tests.

[BlackJetE90]

How did i know Blackjet and blueguy would be the first to downplay the camaro?


Please tell how I downplayed it.

[BlackJetE90]

I sincerely doubt it.

Nope, it did do 8:20 around the ring.

[BlackJetE90]

They announced MPG already for the V6, it's 26 mpg highway.

I think the car looks pretty sharp, but I don't see many cross*****ping the two.

+1 agree 100%

But I get labeled as downplaying it when I say no one will be cross*****ping the two.

They are two completely different tools of the trade. Two different buyers.

[cjwheeling]

To me there wasn't any element of "class" about it. It suited my means at the time as I was only 20 years old, I just can't take any *professional* adults seriously that drive one I guess, plus the fact that I despise retro styling.
No, there isn't any snobbery here...:confused:

You can't take an adult seriously who drive a car they like? wow, I thought I was a car snob.:angel:

[BMW 3-SERIES]

I love the lack of snob appeal the camaro lacks for many on this site to take it seriously as a 1series competitor. The camaro is better looking, the interior looks a lot better than anything the f-body had, it has a great suspension, and its get pretty good fuel economy. Plus its a rwd and its small block Chevy which will not over heat like your twin turbo guys do and it will have tons of after market stuff at a fraction of the cost. The motor itself will last forever, sure there will be questions on build quality, but our bimmers are not exactly the greatest right now and GM's quality has improved at a much higher rate than ours has. Anyone considering the 135i and SS will definitely look at those things and on paper and most likely after the hype dies gm incentives will give this car a HUGE advantage.....



Oh yea its not a bmw and lacks the badge, the exact reason to buy it!

Good grief!!!


Sure. GM build quality sucks. After owning a few, I'm done. From the BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, Cadillac CTS, and Lexus IS350... Edmunds chose the 3-Series for best build quality. Yeah the BMW. Why even compare a heavy non-handling, gas guzzling, heavy ugly GM car to a 135i?? Makes no sense.

[superstock]

Sure. GM build quality sucks. After owning a few, I'm done. From the BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, Cadillac CTS, and Lexus IS350... Edmunds chose the 3-Series for best build quality. Yeah the BMW. Why even compare a heavy non-handling, gas guzzling, heavy ugly GM car to a 135i?? Makes no sense.

Glad you are open minded. I fail to see how a car that gets comparable fuel economy and comparable hp in V6 form is gas guzzling. How do you know how it will handle? Have you driven it? The car is heavier than a 135 but more powerful and CHEAPER. With a true LSD and in SS trim I have no doubt that car will be able to beat a 135 on track and the street.

And ugly? You are defending the 135 as beautiful?!?!

Build quality is relative and this is a brand new car. How long do you think the LS3 engine is going last vs. the twin turbo motor? I would put every penny on the LS3 lasting longer than a complicated turbo motor that runs hot. I have that engine in my 335 and I have no faith in it lasting 100k miles. The Chevy? No doubt.

I think the 1 series and the Camaro will compete since price and function overlap for both of them. It may come down to how much is a BMW badge worth to you?

[superstock]

Please tell how I downplayed it.

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.

By agreeing to the above statement. I can't see how a european economy car chassis is so much greater than a brand new Australian chassis. Until the car is in dealerships it is all empty conjecture regarding the chassis.

[RockyRoad]

I've had several Camaros (including 2 Z28s and a ragtop) in my younger days, and they were a lot of fun. :thumbup:
Great for the younger crowd or for older guys recapturing their yoot, but for me - been there, done that.. :p

[e30e]

Sure. GM build quality sucks. After owning a few, I'm done. From the BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Mercedes C-Class, Cadillac CTS, and Lexus IS350... Edmunds chose the 3-Series for best build quality. Yeah the BMW. Why even compare a heavy non-handling, gas guzzling, heavy ugly GM car to a 135i?? Makes no sense.

I can see from all your car owning experience you obvious have not read about the new camaro your ignorance is amazing good job! What's the 1 series time around the 'ring?



I think the 1 series and the Camaro will compete since price and function overlap for both of them. It may come down to how much is a BMW badge worth to you?

X2


They are two completely different tools of the trade. Two different buyers.

I'm willing to bet there is more people that fit in the middle who will be shopping the two than people who are only looking at one and not the other and GM knows this.

[Qbrozen]

I love the lack of snob appeal the camaro lacks for many on this site to take it seriously as a 1series competitor.

And I love how you jumped on the ancient "badge-whore" comeback when folks didn't agree with your opinion.

The camaro is better looking, the interior looks a lot better than anything the f-body had,

I agree!

it has a great suspension

Now you lost me. How do we know this? Because it says so on paper? I'll wait for a drive, thank you. And, really, the same goes for the looks. The outside, ok, pretty safe to say it will look good in person, too. But the inside? Only an in-person looky touchy session will suffice.

But I admire your stick-tuitiveness on something you haven't even touched yet.

[e30e]

And I love how you jumped on the ancient "badge-whore" comeback when folks didn't agree with your opinion.



I agree!



Now you lost me. How do we know this? Because it says so on paper? I'll wait for a drive, thank you. And, really, the same goes for the looks. The outside, ok, pretty safe to say it will look good in person, too. But the inside? Only an in-person looky touchy session will suffice.

But I admire your stick-tuitiveness on something you haven't even touched yet.

It has the same suspension as the cts, which has a great suspension. But you have good points.

[superstock]

As long as the base car is around 22k and the SS is no more than 33k base I think the Camaro will be successful. Any more and they are competing with Corvette and people who want some measure of "luxury" in their sports cars.

[Qbrozen]

As long as the base car is around 22k and the SS is no more than 33k base I think the Camaro will be successful. Any more and they are competing with Corvette and people who want some measure of "luxury" in their sports cars.

I think they've got more room to play with. Vettes start at $47k these days.

But they may want a bit of room for a Z28. So that may fill that $37k-$40k hole.

[natantheone]

I would only get one if it was a transformer.
Thats funny me and my wife were just talking about that.

[1985mb]

The C6 Vette is proof GM can build a sporty chassis when it wants to. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the Camaro will be based on Holden platforms, which apparently have very good chassis/supensions. Impossible to tell right now how the finished product will feel, but good signs nonetheless

And, I haven't seen it in person, but I'm betting it will look better than the Mustang in real life. To me, the 'stang is a bit of a failure as a modern interpretation of a retro design - the rear overhang is quite shameful for anything pretending to be a sports car

[aardvark]

The new Camaro is a big car (length 190"), so you really can't compare it to a 1er. Heck, the Camaro is slightly longer than the 6-series! I'm not sure if I'd want to have to find a parking place in S.F. for a car like that on a regular basis.

That said, the new Camaro sounds very promising on paper. I don't think that the pricing has been released, but if the 300hp V6 model comes out in the low $20s, it's going to look like a hell of a deal.

[BlackJetE90]

Don't think this car will appeal to the same person. Camaros are pretty much about brute-force and bad chassis. This car won't live up to GM's PR.

By agreeing to the above statement. I can't see how a european economy car chassis is so much greater than a brand new Australian chassis. Until the car is in dealerships it is all empty conjecture regarding the chassis.

I said nothing about the chassis? I only agreed with him on it appealing to the same person. I guess I should have edited his post.

I am the one who posted the ring time, which is pretty damn good.

Lighten up buddy.

[BJDrew]

Is it confirmed that the Cobalt and Camaro will share the same flimsy plastic buttons and knobs?

The 1-series is a great performance car, so for a very small cross-section of the 1-Addict crowd, there might be a consideration for the Camaro. These are the guys posting "Sti vs 135i" "Rx-7 vs 135i" and "Shelby GT vs 135i" posts.

The rest of us are posting "335i vs 135i" "Merc AMG vs 135i" etc.

To each his own.

[cjwheeling]

Is it confirmed that the Cobalt and Camaro will share the same flimsy plastic buttons and knobs?

The 1-series is a great performance car, so for a very small cross-section of the 1-Addict crowd, there might be a consideration for the Camaro. These are the guys posting "Sti vs 135i" "Rx-7 vs 135i" and "Shelby GT vs 135i" posts.

The rest of us are posting "335i vs 135i" "Merc AMG vs 135i" etc.

To each his own.
I disagree. I believe that people who are considering the 1 series are looking for a performance car first, and a luxury car second. I have to agree with Superstock when he says that this is a brand new chassis and vehicle, so why denegrate the car before testing it. Every pre-production test I've seen says the car is amazing, possibly the best car ever made by GM including the Vette. As much as I like BMWs, I don't believe that the economy 1 series is going to be better than the best Chevy ever made.

[ptack]

I think the Dead Milkmen said it best -
Bitchin' Camaro, Bitchin' Camaro!
Donuts on your lawn
Bitchin' Camaro, Bitchin' Camaro!
Tony Orlando and Dawn

Seriously, the devil's in the details so there's no telling what you're getting (and what you're not) with a Camaro until they are actually on the road. All car companies hype their new products and try to hide/ignore wht's wrong or missing. More than likely you will get a very fast American muscle car with various annoying corners that have been cut by the famous Detroit bean counters. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

[superstock]

Like the 1 series backseat "arm rest" that is just a hunk of foam that flops out of the way?

I agree, i do want to see one in person. Little touches might be missing but the car undoubtedly has the equipment (though too heavy for me) that would make it fast and fun. Not nimble but definitely fast.

[superstock]

Is it confirmed that the Cobalt and Camaro will share the same flimsy plastic buttons and knobs?

The 1-series is a great performance car, so for a very small cross-section of the 1-Addict crowd, there might be a consideration for the Camaro. These are the guys posting "Sti vs 135i" "Rx-7 vs 135i" and "Shelby GT vs 135i" posts.

The rest of us are posting "335i vs 135i" "Merc AMG vs 135i" etc.

To each his own.

A flimsy A/C switch or junky radio are the absolute last things i look at in a car. Nice buttons do add a "class" but it would have to be outrageous to add anything. Like the automatic vents in the new Jaguar XF. Difference between BMW and Chevy? Not big enough to matter to me.

If I don't like a radio i can swap it. Little more difficult to add bigger brakes, huge V8 and a limited slip.

I just rented a new cobalt and I have to say the new interior was perfectly acceptable. These are not Cavaliers anymore.

[jtm964]

The 1 series BMW is not really a Premium Vehicle, and it is not really a high performance vehicle either (no LSD?), so do not look down on others, especially now that GM quality improves a whole lot.

[Qbrozen]

read a preview in Automobile.
3700 lbs? Ouch! My AWD G35 sedan weighs that much. A sport coupe should NOT be that heavy, IMHO.
And the shots of the interior leave me limp. Center stack reminds me of a Grand Am, for some reason. And those gauges? I didn't like those in the '70s, so I certainly didn't want to see them come back.

Still would check out the car and drive it. Just pointing out some problems I see on paper.

[superstock]

A sport coupe shouldn't weigh more than 3000lbs in my opinion so I am definitely with you on that point. But at least they gave the car lots of other goodies including 400+ hp.

[1985mb]

How much does a 135i weigh?

[superstock]

3400lbs?

[jkp1187]

I disagree. I believe that people who are considering the 1 series are looking for a performance car first, and a luxury car second. I have to agree with Superstock when he says that this is a brand new chassis and vehicle, so why denegrate the car before testing it. Every pre-production test I've seen says the car is amazing, possibly the best car ever made by GM including the Vette. As much as I like BMWs, I don't believe that the economy 1 series is going to be better than the best Chevy ever made.

I personally don't like the styling of the Camaro (honestly, never really did,) and I doubt I'd buy one, but it will be interesting to see how one actually performs. I also cross*****ped the Pontiac G8 with the 1-series (briefly -- until I saw how much of a gas-guzzler it was,) and I don't think it's outrageous for someone to compare the Camaro with a Bimmer.

[bmwadam]

I will consider the Camaro. It looks MUCH better than the 1, plus it has a dipstick and a temp gauge. The last real BMW was the e39 in my opinion. The BEST Bimmers ever made came out of the 80's and 90's. The new stuff is borderline ugly (except for the refreshed 3, I can live with it) and in many respects boring. Not to mention overpriced. The Camaro looks great so far, although if it is indeed plagued by the build quality of the 4th gen then that may change my mind. And I dont car what anyone on here says, the fact that the v6 version will spank the 135 WITHOUT the turbos is a great accomplishment. Ive always been a NA guy.

BUT GM has come a long way, take for example the new Malibu. It is a nice car. Its build quality is on par with a BMW. In some respects maybe even better. Now Im not saying the Malibu is for me, OR that the Malibu is a luxury car, it isnt. BUT it is built well for a Camry fighter and is a good illustration to GM's renewed commitment to build quality vehicles.

And lets talk about BMW "build quality" Last time I checked BMW was still churning out bad sunroof and door seals, cheap leather that wears easily, crummy I-Drive interface, squeks and rattles, suspension parts that wear very quickly, and not to mention the ill fated X3 auto crap box. and of c ourse their LCD digital displays still crap out after about 5 to 6 years. My family bought BMW's in the 80's and 90's because GM and FORD were building garbage, now that that appears to be changing, who knows what I will get next? I personally do not like the direction BMW appears to be heading thats all. It is also rumored that BMW is going to drop a manual gearbox offering from their lineup within the next few years. IF they do this, THEN they will loose me as a customer. That is one thing I WILL NOT compromise. And Im sure many on this board will agree with me. I dont care if the SMG or dual clutch whatever gimmicks shift faster, I want to feel a clutch engage and shift myself. That is a big pleasure of driving for me. And even thgough I have been a faithful BMW enthusiast for the past decade, I will not hesitate to leave them if they continue on the present course.

[cjwheeling]

...The new stuff is borderline ugly (except for the refreshed 3, I can live with it) and in many respects boring. Not to mention overpriced. And I dont car what anyone on here says, the fact that the v6 version will spank the 135 WITHOUT the turbos is a great accomplishment. Ive always been a NA guy.

...And lets talk about BMW "build quality" Last time I checked BMW was still churning out bad sunroof and door seals, cheap leather that wears easily, crummy I-Drive interface, squeks and rattles, suspension parts that wear very quickly, and not to mention the ill fated X3 auto crap box. and of c ourse their LCD digital displays still crap out after about 5 to 6 years.

...And even though I have been a faithful BMW enthusiast for the past decade, I will not hesitate to leave them if they continue on the present course.
C'mon, tell us how you really feel!

[jkp1187]

Am I the only one who actually thinks the 1-series looks cool? :dunno:

I will confess a pet peeve...I think the new Malibu front end is one of the ugliest on the road now, whatever the car's other merits (it apparently is a quality offering from GM, by all accounts). Only one that may be worse is the new Acura front end.

[SeeYal]

You drive the Cobalt SS? It is sick. I took a yellow SS out last week and it felt faster than my 335i.

my have been the impression caused by the rattles on the cheap interior???:rofl:

[superstock]

my have been the impression caused by the rattles on the cheap interior???:rofl:

No, that was the surprising thing. No rattles at all (new vs. 10k miles but still)

The reason it felt so quick was that it wasn't as isolated from the road. You could hear the turbo and exhaust and the gearing was short so in gear acceleartion was excellent. Not at all what I was expecting, especially from a car that costs very low 20s, not mid 40s.

[e30e]

Posted on a local forum, made me think of this thread

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/FoMoCoFan17/2010camarowti.jpg[/

[cjwheeling]

Posted on a local forum, made me think of this thread

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/FoMoCoFan17/2010camarowti.jpg[/
How did you get a picture of my car?

[dwulffusa]

It seems crazy to think about, but I too think a 135i shopper will look at a Camaro SS. I know I would never by a Camaro, but I would like to drive this new one for a couple of weeks, just for kicks. Its the first muscle car/ retro/ whatever that I would actually see myself in. Its that cult status thing, the association with other lovers of the brand etc. From what I can tell, its also trying to do the come back thing right. It actually has current day technology.....independent suspension, brilliant!, give that engineer a medal..... .
However I cannot see how the fit and finish can come anywhere close to a German car. The Corvette costs thousands more and is still covered in nasty toys'r'us plastics with no semblance of craftsmanship. I cant imagine how they would put 'more' into a 30-40k car.

[cjwheeling]

I will defintely be buying an SS Convertible, but I'll wait a year or two after they come out so I can buy a used one for $15K instead of $50K

[adc]

However I cannot see how the fit and finish can come anywhere close to a German car. The Corvette costs thousands more and is still covered in nasty toys'r'us plastics with no semblance of craftsmanship. I cant imagine how they would put 'more' into a 30-40k car.

The last GTO had decent fit & finish and I thought the current Malibu also does, for $10k less. The Corvette is a throwback - and there's not much wiggle room because of the limited production numbers. If they increase the price any further, nobody would buy it.

[superstock]

I will defintely be buying an SS Convertible, but I'll wait a year or two after they come out so I can buy a used one for $15K instead of $50K


If you are looking at 15K then you are going to be waiting a lot longer than a year or two. No car (not even a Kia) depreciates that fast. For a 15k SS convertible you are probably looking at 6 years.

[gmlav8r]

Both cars are too heavy. My 2009 Subaru Forester weighs 3,250#.

[cruise_bone]

No doubt it's fast. But, what are you going to do when you get to a turn at 80mph? You better hope the brakes are huge 'cause it's gonna handle like a POS Chevy.

[Augenstein]

No doubt it's fast. But, what are you going to do when you get to a turn at 80mph? You better hope the brakes are huge 'cause it's gonna handle like a POS Chevy.

Very popular misconception.

The last Camaro absolutely owned the SCCA showroom stock racing and autocross classes it competed in. Pretty much nothing out there could touch it, including things like the S2000 and Cayman.

Yeah, I never liked the build quality, but they ran hard and long, with the entire package: Great speed, great handling and great brakes. The 1LE package was the ticket for cheap speed.

Oh, yeah. The last of the Camaro SS coupes (with the LS1 Vette motor) ran low 13s and even high twelves (given good weather and good traction) at the drag strip.

Good mileage, too. Mid to even upper 20s on the highway.

I'm not in the market for such a car, but will be very interested to see how the new one turns out.

Bruce

[adc]

I'm not in the market for such a car, but will be very interested to see how the new one turns out.

I think the new one will be significantly heavier than the old one. Not sure it will do as well at the track, or auto-x. (Despite the suspension advancements).

[Augenstein]

I think the new one will be significantly heavier than the old one. Not sure it will do as well at the track, or auto-x. (Despite the suspension advancements).

Dunno about autocross, but it looks as if it'll do just fine at the track (and I'm sure the drag strip). Just look at what an 8:20 beats at the 'Ring. You don't get to run that hard unless the car is the real deal.

Bruce

[adc]

Dunno about autocross, but it looks as if it'll do just fine at the track (and I'm sure the drag strip). Just look at what an 8:20 beats at the 'Ring. You don't get to run that hard unless the car is the real deal.

Perhaps the Camaro is just muscling its way along the Ring, it certainly has sufficient power for that.

The Cobalt SS runs an 8:25 I think with 165BHP less - in terms of suspension, I think the Cobalt is the real deal. We'll see... would be nice to have more alternatives in the powerful, relatively affordable, RWD Coupe segment. :thumbup:

[Augenstein]

Perhaps the Camaro is just muscling its way along the Ring, it certainly has sufficient power for that.

I'm afraid your preconceived notions about Camaro handling mean that we're done here.

The Cobalt SS runs an 8:25 I think with 165BHP less - in terms of suspension, I think the Cobalt is the real deal. We'll see... would be nice to have more alternatives in the powerful, relatively affordable, RWD Coupe segment. :thumbup:

Well, in addition to the Camaro, Mustang and Challenger, you've got the 135. Also, check out the new Hyundai.

Bruce

[adc]

I'm afraid your preconceived notions about Camaro handling mean that we're done here.

Not sure where you got that.

I'm basing my comments on the fact that the new Camaro is built off the same platform as the Pontiac G8 and various Holdens and British-market Vauxhal VXR's. I recently read a bunch of reviews of those platforms in Evo (and other mags) and the latest one was less than flattering as far as track ability.

I reallize the Camaro will probably be lighter - 200 lbs or so? - and the suspension can be tuned differently etc. It's certainly possible that the new R&D has turned the Camaro from broad shouldered brute to wispy dancer, but I am not holding my breath.

On the other hand, I am also aware of the 135i and 335i handling limitations - it's not like they are some sort of track demons.


Like I said, time will tell.

[///M3 E93 in LA]

So much wasted typing! Its a Chevy for God's sake, as far as I m concerned enough said. Why would anybody even ask the question or debate the merits of a Chevy on a BMW forum. A Cadillac CTS-V or maybe a Corvette,would be worthy of the debate, but not a friggin Camaro.

Im sure I will get some hate flames from Mullet wearers.

[e30e]

So much wasted typing! Its a Chevy for God's sake, as far as I m concerned enough said. Why would anybody even ask the question or debate the merits of a Chevy on a BMW forum. A Cadillac CTS-V or maybe a Corvette,would be worthy of the debate, but not a friggin Camaro.

Im sure I will get some hate flames from Mullet wearers.

Elitist much? Some of us are CAR enthusiasts not just bmw fan boi's!

[gojira-san]

I'm basing my comments on the fact that the new Camaro is built off the same platform as the Pontiac G8 and various Holdens and British-market Vauxhal VXR's. I recently read a bunch of reviews of those platforms in Evo (and other mags) and the latest one was less than flattering as far as track ability.
Holden builds some pretty nice stuff. I have a Pontiac GTO, which is the Holden Monaro. The build quality is really nice especially at the price point. It's much nicer inside than the usual Pontiac, even though the US beancounters did cheapen a few things up, but with the 6speed manual and a 400hp LS2 motor, it is a lot of fun. Think of it as a poor-man's 6er (that statement should tick some people off :rofl: )

I'll probably look at the Camaro when it shows up, but like the Challenger, I don't really have much interest.

[///M3 E93 in LA]

Posted on a local forum, made me think of this thread

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj66/FoMoCoFan17/2010camarowti.jpg[/



so true! I definately can picture a guy with a mullet emerging from this car.

and



Elitist much? Some of us are CAR enthusiasts not just bmw fan boi's!





You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth? However, I think the picture says it all, but don't you think that is a bit elitist too?

[///M3 E93 in LA]

By the way, I had a Z28 camaro once, when I was 21 years old, (when I was young and impressionable and couldn't afford a BMW), and it was the biggest piece of S#$%! I probably thought NASCAR was cool too then.

[jtm964]

By the way, I had a Z28 camaro once, when I was 21 years old, (when I was young and impressionable and couldn't afford a BMW), and it was the biggest piece of S#$%! I probably thought NASCAR was cool too then.

I don't know how old you are, but a lot of people think the same about BMWs ,too.

[adc]

By the way, I had a Z28 camaro once, when I was 21 years old, (when I was young and impressionable and couldn't afford a BMW), and it was the biggest piece of S#$%! I probably thought NASCAR was cool too then.

Wouldn't you swap your precious BMW's for Camaros if you could be 21 again? I would in a heartbeat... :rofl:

[///M3 E93 in LA]

I don't know how old you are, but a lot of people think the same about BMWs ,too.

How is that relevant? They are entitled to their opinion.

However, most of them are not sharing their view on the virtues of a Camaro over a 1 series on the BMW forum. Thats the issue. As far as I'm concerned they can bag on BMW and share all the superlatives they believe to be true of Camaro on the Camaro forum all they want. I'm not going over to the Camaro forum and flaming the Camaro and telling them how great BMWs are.

This is a BMW website, expect to receive strong feelings in support of the marque for whatever reason.

[///M3 E93 in LA]

Wouldn't you swap your precious BMW's for Camaros if you could be 21 again? I would in a heartbeat... :rofl:

No, actually not, I had little money and was always worrying about making ends meet. I had never travelled outside the US. I shared an apartment with three other people. At work, I had other people telling me what to do, worked tons of overtime all of the time, so that I can get where I am today. I was single and had no family. I ate Kraft Macaroni and cheese........

All of these things have changed so much for the better, why would I want to be 21 again, and on top of it all .......have to drive a crappy Camaro.

Hmmmm, now, 20, I was in college.... thats might be a different matter!

[adc]

No, actually not, I had little money and was always worrying about making ends meet. I had never travelled outside the US. I shared an apartment with three other people. At work, I had other people telling me what to do, worked tons of overtime all of the time, so that I can get where I am today. I was single and had no family. I ate Kraft Macaroni and cheese........

All of these things have changed so much for the better, why would I want to be 21 again, and on top of it all .......have to drive a crappy Camaro.

Hmmmm, now, 20, I was in college.... thats might be a different matter!

Tough luck then... at 21 I was still in college, had lots of wild sex, no money whatsoever, couldn't travel much being behind the Iron Curtain and drove a car that made the Camaro look like a Ferrari. But more importantly, I had vast amounts of energy, optimism and a much bigger appetite for life - despite living in a world whose gloominess you can scarcely imagine (or perhaps precisely because of that).

[///M3 E93 in LA]

Tough luck then... at 21 I was still in college, had lots of wild sex, no money whatsoever, couldn't travel much being behind the Iron Curtain and drove a car that made the Camaro look like a Ferrari. But more importantly, I had vast amounts of energy, optimism and a much bigger appetite for life - despite living in a world whose gloominess you can scarcely imagine (or perhaps precisely because of that).

Sorry about your circumstances. My life then was good too for the reasons you mention, primarily optimism for the future, but, that was then, this is now. Life is good now, too, and in some ways better, as I have achieved what I dreamed and planned for then. So why look back.

[adc]

So why look back.

Actually, agreed - and in the context of this thread, I'm looking forward to test-driving the new Camaro in a few months. Even if it made for a very entertaining car, I'll probably end up in a 135 anyway, the allure of another ED is simply too strong...

[///M3 E93 in LA]

Actually, agreed - and in the context of this thread, I'm looking forward to test-driving the new Camaro in a few months. Even if it made for a very entertaining car, I'll probably end up in a 135 anyway, the allure of another ED is simply too strong...

I'll Agree to that. I have slightly better idea, how about ED on the 135tii, assuming that comes out! Now that would be the ticket. Much better then any Camaro! I particularly like the ED aspect on any BMW.

[ptack]

This sounds like the G8 discussion before they actually reached the show rooms. You don't hear much about that comparison anymore because the reality is not the same as press release hype. A guy who works with me just got a G8. It's almost the same color as SGM. He likes well enough because of the price, but a check engine light came on in the first 70 miles and it took the dealer 3 days to fix it. The interior is cheap cheap cheap. If it's about the same price, I wouldn't expect the Camaro to be a whole lot different.

[adgrant]

It seems crazy to think about, but I too think a 135i shopper will look at a Camaro SS. I know I would never by a Camaro, but I would like to drive this new one for a couple of weeks, just for kicks. Its the first muscle car/ retro/ whatever that I would actually see myself in. Its that cult status thing, the association with other lovers of the brand etc. From what I can tell, its also trying to do the come back thing right. It actually has current day technology.....independent suspension, brilliant!, give that engineer a medal..... .
However I cannot see how the fit and finish can come anywhere close to a German car. The Corvette costs thousands more and is still covered in nasty toys'r'us plastics with no semblance of craftsmanship. I cant imagine how they would put 'more' into a 30-40k car.

I don't. I think a 135i shopper will be looking at the 328, JCW Mini Cooper or perhaps an Audi TT. I have driven rental Mustang convertibles. Nice cars except for the rear suspension and cheap and nasty interior. I expect the interior quality of the Chevy to be equally nasty. The 1 series is not quite as good as the 3 but it is not that bad either.

Biggest problem for with with Camaro (aside from the fact it is a Chevy) is the kind people I used to see driving them when I lived in North Carolina about 15 years ago. A confederate flag where the front license plate gos was pretty much standard equipment.

[jtm964]

How is that relevant? They are entitled to their opinion.

However, most of them are not sharing their view on the virtues of a Camaro over a 1 series on the BMW forum. Thats the issue. As far as I'm concerned they can bag on BMW and share all the superlatives they believe to be true of Camaro on the Camaro forum all they want. I'm not going over to the Camaro forum and flaming the Camaro and telling them how great BMWs are.

This is a BMW website, expect to receive strong feelings in support of the marque for whatever reason.

It is relevant because in defending the BMW, you seemed very immature. I believe chevrolet today produce some very good quality products, and to say people come here to flame BMW just when they were asking for an opinion is nonsensical.
I am a big bimmer fan and I have owned no less than 10 BMWs in the past 14 years, but I also think that the new camaro comes a long way. As a car enthusiast, this comparison is worth discussing.

[jtm964]

This sounds like the G8 discussion before they actually reached the show rooms. You don't hear much about that comparison anymore because the reality is not the same as press release hype. A guy who works with me just got a G8. It's almost the same color as SGM. He likes well enough because of the price, but a check engine light came on in the first 70 miles and it took the dealer 3 days to fix it. The interior is cheap cheap cheap. If it's about the same price, I wouldn't expect the Camaro to be a whole lot different.

Check engine light and less than luxurious interior? You don't think its the problem of some bimmers?

[///M3 E93 in LA]

It is relevant because in defending the BMW, you seemed very immature. I believe chevrolet today produce some very good quality products, and to say people come here to flame BMW just when they were asking for an opinion is nonsensical.
I am a big bimmer fan and I have owned no less than 10 BMWs in the past 14 years, but I also think that the new camaro comes a long way. As a car enthusiast, this comparison is worth discussing.

Whatever buddy, have a nice day.

[superstock]

Whatever buddy, have a nice day.

A rude guy from LA??? Who would have thought it!!

[jtm964]

A rude guy from LA??? Who would have thought it!!

He lose the debate, that's why he's rude.

[bugawako]

[QUOTE=phantombmw;3414105]I hear they will throw in a free mullet as well with purchase, not sure if that is true or not though.

I just have to say that's one of the funniest replies I've read. :rofl:

[BryanH]

I hear they will throw in a free mullet as well with purchase, not sure if that is true or not though.

I have to agree, that quote is great :rofl:

I am a Camaro owner myself. I got a 99 LS1 and it's an awesome car for what it is. Though if the new Camaro is going to shoot up 500 lbs more than the 4th gen, then I won't even consider it. I think the Mustang so far is the only muscle car left to keep the weight down around 3300 to 3400 lbs.