PDA

View Full Version : RedLine Oil (write up)


Andy
08-20-2003, 06:44 PM
I just changed my oil today with RedLine (http://www.redlineoil.com) 5W30 Synthetic motor oil... and all I can say is WOW!! :yikes: I had no idea that oil could make such a difference. I have 1061 miles on the car (almost broke in). I was planning on waiting until I was at 1200 miles, but just couldn't wait... to excited to try out RedLine I guess. I noticed three differences right away:

1. The engine got A LOT quieter!! I honestly can not hear (or feel) the engine at idle (even with all the windows down). After the oil change, I pulled out of the drive way in reverse, pulled the car out of gear and hesitated for a second before shifting to 1st. While the car was out of gear, I actually thought I stalled the car because I could not hear the engine. I never really paid any attention to the engine noise at idle, I never really noticed it... but I definitely noticed it when it WAS NOT there. It almost acts as if it's idling at a lower RPM, not really sure if that's true or not. I noticed it was idling at about 600 RPM (not sure what it was before the oil change).

2. As I stated in this thread (http://www.my330i.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1713) on my330i.com a few days ago, I was noticing a slight hesitation in power around 4000 RPM. I had no idea what was causing this (and still don't really), but I figured it would go away after break-in. After the oil change I took the car out for some fun (and hard) driving. I noticed right away that the hesitation was gone. Before the oil change the hesitation was pretty consistent around 4000 RPM. I tried several times to reproduce it but to my surprise I was unable to. I even took it to red line in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear several times (this was the first time I have taken the car over 4500/5000 RPM since I've had it). Anyway, I'm not sure if the hesitation is gone for good, but it was definitely gone for my 30 minute "fun run".

3. Now this third one could be all in my head... but I swear the car seems to be pulling harder through the entire powerband. Taking the car to red line in 1st, 2nd and 3rd is as smooth as silk.

Now, I can't really compare RedLine Oil with Amsoil or Royal Purple, but I can compare it with the oil that came in my car from the factory... and I give RedLine 5 out of 5 stars!! I would highly recommend it, even though it did cost me $7.99 a quart.

numbersguy
08-20-2003, 09:17 PM
The info on Redline's website is very interesting. They do mention, however, that this oil is formulated for race motors and contains no detergents. Aren't detergents needed in a daily driver's motor?

They also mention how one of their customers got super long engine life in his sprint car: 7,000 race miles! I'm sure you want to get more than that out of your ZHP. Do they have a recommended oil change interval for street cars?

F1Crazy
08-20-2003, 10:14 PM
The info on Redline's website is very interesting. They do mention, however, that this oil is formulated for race motors and contains no detergents. Aren't detergents needed in a daily driver's motor?

They also mention how one of their customers got super long engine life in his sprint car: 7,000 race miles! I'm sure you want to get more than that out of your ZHP. Do they have a recommended oil change interval for street cars?

Their oils contain detergents, no oil on the market can do without them. You can search for Virgin or Used Oil Analysis on bobistheoilguy.com and you'll see that Red Line makes just oils, no magic there, just top notch engineering and great base oil stocks.
No oil maker will recommend oil change intervals during your warranty period, they just won't recommend against car manufacturers requirements.

Andy, I think that you really exaggerating the changes that oil made. It's the same viscosity as the factory fill so it would be very hard to notice the difference so quickly, give it a few thousand miles and then report back.
Do you have more info on this oil? What is it's viscosity @ both 40C and 100C, HT/HS rate, viscosity index and TBN? I would like to compare it with other oils.

numbersguy
08-20-2003, 10:20 PM
OK, I took another look and saw that what you're using isn't race oil. They say the change intervals are 10K miles or more. Still I wonder, if BMW goes to so much trouble to squeeze another 10 hp out of the motor why isn't this stuff OEM?

elbert
08-20-2003, 10:29 PM
Their oils contain detergents, no oil on the market can do without them.

Yep. Their regular "Motor Oils" do have detergents, their "Race Oils" do not.

F1Crazy
08-21-2003, 07:49 AM
OK, I took another look and saw that what you're using isn't race oil. They say the change intervals are 10K miles or more. Still I wonder, if BMW goes to so much trouble to squeeze another 10 hp out of the motor why isn't this stuff OEM?

There is no problem to squeeze another 10HP out of the engine, the problem is how to do it to maintain driveability (Honda S2000 comes to mind), reliability, fuel economy, etc. at the same time.
You can squeeze more power out of the engine if you reduce pumping losses with lower viscosity oils. Nascar guys do it in qualifying by running so called zero viscosity oils but during the race no one dares to run anything thinner than 20W-50.

Nowadays marketing dictates what fluids are used at the factory but there is also big dose of technical cooperation. Red Line being a small company don't even test for some specifications like ACEA, let alone manufacturers specs, so you can forget about it being even on a list of approved oils.

Andy
08-21-2003, 07:49 AM
Andy, I think that you really exaggerating the changes that oil made.

Exaggerating?! I don't think so. Why would I waste my time on this write up if I barely noticed any changes? :tsk: I'm certainly not making any money off the sale of RedLine. You don't believe me? Go try it for yourself!!


Do you have more info on this oil? What is it's viscosity @ both 40C and 100C, HT/HS rate, viscosity index and TBN? I would like to compare it with other oils.

I'm sure they'll have all the info you want on their web site (http://www.redlineoil.com) .

F1Crazy
08-21-2003, 08:07 AM
Andy, don't get me wrong, I like their products a lot, I've used their water wetter, fuel system cleaner and probably will use diff fluid but I've never heard about such a big difference immediately after changing while running the same viscosity.
I've found and checked the specs and I thought that maybe that oil is on a thick side of 30wt, it would explain less noise but it's not. Specs were very limited BTW.
Maybe you can do Used Oil Analysis and we can see how it really works over time.

Andy
08-21-2003, 08:31 AM
Andy, don't get me wrong, I like their products a lot, I've used their water wetter, fuel system cleaner and probably will use diff fluid but I've never heard about such a big difference immediately after changing while running the same viscosity.
I've found and checked the specs and I thought that maybe that oil is on a thick side of 30wt, it would explain less noise but it's not. Specs were very limited BTW.
Maybe you can do Used Oil Analysis and we can see how it really works over time.


Trust me, I was just as surprised!! I've gone through many oil changes in my life and this is honestly the first time I have ever felt a difference in performance from just an oil change, especially using the same viscosity.

I plan to pay close attention and see if I notice anything else (positive or negative) over the next few thousand miles. I'll be sure to keep you guys informed.

I was thinking of having a used oil analysis done on this oil. When is the best time for the analysis? 7,500 miles?

F1Crazy
08-21-2003, 08:38 AM
I was thinking of having a used oil analysis done on this oil. When is the best time for the analysis? 7,500 miles?

It would be nice to see how it works at 5, 7.5, 10 and 15K miles :D but whenever you change your oil will be fine.

Mark_325i
08-21-2003, 08:42 AM
believe whatever you want. Enjoy yourself and don't let anyone tell you that your car isn't faster, quieter, shinier, more babe-attracting, etc, etc with your fancy oil.

in_d_haus
08-21-2003, 08:46 AM
Exaggerating?! I don't think so. Why would I waste my time on this write up if I barely noticed any changes? :tsk: I'm certainly not making any money off the sale of RedLine. You don't believe me? Go try it for yourself!!


Andy,
Thanks for the writeup. I use their products in my tranny and diff and have had the same marked improvements that you mention. I'd like to try the oil but as I change my oil every 3000 miles they are a bit on the pricey side. Still, after your writeup I may try it and see. I currently use the factory oil.

F1Crazy
08-21-2003, 09:26 AM
Andy,
I'd like to try the oil but as I change my oil every 3000 miles they are a bit on the pricey side. Still, after your writeup I may try it and see. I currently use the factory oil.

That would be pricey oil maintenance indeed.
Just to make you feel better guys, Mike Miller from Bimmer magazine always says great things about Red Line products. He recommends 10W-40 for your S52 with 7.5K miles intervals if track your car. This should reduce the cost to about what you pay right now.

in_d_haus
08-21-2003, 09:30 AM
That would be pricey oil maintenance indeed.
Just to make you feel better guys, Mike Miller from Bimmer magazine always says great things about Red Line products. He recommends 10W-40 for your S52 with 7.5K miles intervals if track your car. This should reduce the cost to about what you pay right now.

I'm happy with my oil service intervals. I'd like to add that this is subjective. Most people who track, not race, their cars only do so a handful of times a year. I track close to 20 times which approximates a race schedule. Additionally I drive my car nearly daily and did the 2500 mile trip to bimmerfest in it and back.

Oil service should be dictated by individual use not any generalities.

F1Crazy
08-21-2003, 09:40 AM
Oil service should be dictated by individual use not any generalities.

Very true, unfortunately the only way to find out how often we should change oil for our driving conditions is to do used oil analysis from time to time.

With the amount of time you spend on the track your intervals sound really good, maybe a bit on a safe side. I'm surprised that you don't use a bit thicker oil but I guess your engine must be happy with BMW oil so is mine. ;)

in_d_haus
08-21-2003, 10:17 AM
With the amount of time you spend on the track your intervals sound really good, maybe a bit on a safe side. I'm surprised that you don't use a bit thicker oil but I guess your engine must be happy with BMW oil so is mine. ;)

My philosophy has always been that the BMW engineers are the ultimate experts on these cars since they designed them and tested them to failure. As such if they recommend a particular viscosity then I'd venture to guess that they know what they are talking about.

Yes, my intervals do run on the safe side. My 525, with 220,000 miles on it gets oil changed every 1500 miles due to highmileage of the car.
oil/filter is about $40...cheap insurance (anyone wanna run a group buy on BMW oil?) :D

as an added point, most racers I talk to have gone to a lighter viscosity not a heavier one.

Andy
09-09-2003, 08:10 PM
I just changed my transmission and differential fluid this evening using Red Line D4 ATF (tranny) and Red Line 75W90 Gear Oil (diff.). I used the DIY found on http://www.bmw325i.net . It was super easy!!

The 6 speed tranny shifts smooth as silk now, I can definitely tell a difference when shifting between gears... it's a lot less notchy. I can't really tell a difference in the differential, although I'm sure the Red Line oil is a lot better then the stuff that was in there from the factory.

The only difference that I found in the DIY was that the fill & drain bolts on my 2003 330i 6 speed transmission where 8mm Hex. I had to make a special trip to the auto parts store to pick up the socket once I found that out.

This fluid change was definitely worth the time and money. :thumbup:

bluer1
09-09-2003, 09:02 PM
I'm a big fan of Redline's products but have a caveat for you.

Be sure to check the level more frequently. I had to quit running it in the bikes (think 1 liter 4 cyl., 11.5k RPM, ~140hp) due to chrome cylinders. The oil just eased right past the rings.

I'm not saying that there's a direct comparison - just that you might want to keep an eye on it until you know if consumption will be an issue. It's not like you can drop into Pep Boys and get Redline.

I eventually gave up and went back to Motul.

MikeW
09-10-2003, 09:22 AM
Actually, of the name brand oils, I'd use M1 0w40 for a newish BMW (main line cars with the 2.5 and 3.0L engines. Ms are another story altogether).

BMW originally specified 5w40, then, when they switch supplier contracts (from Valvoline to Castrol), without changing he engines, they went to 5w30. Hmmm? Anyway, this suggests the SAE 40 is fine for the engine at operating temps. At the low end, any engine that is compatible with 5w will be fine or better with 0w at low temps.

Also, M1 0w40 has all the certifications that indicate compatibility with BMW engines, including ACEA A3 and BMW LL01. What certifications does Redline have? None. Not even API SL. This makes me suspicious.

Finally, the M1 is $4.99 a quart at any autozone.

bmw325
09-10-2003, 09:26 AM
Actually, of the name brand oils, I'd use M1 0w40 for a newish BMW (main line cars with the 2.5 and 3.0L engines. Ms are another story altogether).

BMW originally specified 5w40, then, when they switch supplier contracts (from Valvoline to Castrol), without changing he engines, they went to 5w30. Hmmm? Anyway, this suggests the SAE 40 is fine for the engine at operating temps. At the low end, any engine that is compatible with 5w will be fine or better with 0w at low temps.

Also, M1 0w40 has all the certifications that indicate compatibility with BMW engines, including ACEA A3 and BMW LL01. What certifications does Redline have? None. Not even API SL. This makes me suspicious.

Finally, the M1 is $4.99 a quart at any autozone.

IIRC, 0W40 is what BMW fills their cars w/ in Europe.

DOes the M1 5w30 not have the same certifications at the 0w40?

F1Crazy
09-10-2003, 09:54 AM
IIRC, 0W40 is what BMW fills their cars w/ in Europe.

DOes the M1 5w30 not have the same certifications at the 0w40?

Actually they are filled with 0W-30 Castrol SLX. You can't buy this oil OTC in Germany, it is only service center oil. Castrol's OTC oil is their new Formula RS 0W-40. It may sound strange for us but not for Castrol :tsk: .

M1 5W-30 meets only ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5 and it does not meet BMW LongLife specs. Fine oil but not for extended drain intervals and I wouldn't use it if track your car.

F1Crazy
09-10-2003, 10:01 AM
Also, M1 0w40 has all the certifications that indicate compatibility with BMW engines, including ACEA A3 and BMW LL01. What certifications does Redline have? None. Not even API SL. This makes me suspicious.



There is nothing to be suspicious about, the certification is costly and small company like Red Line chooses not to do it. As far as API specs they are worthless IMO, you can find $.99 oils at Wal-Mart that meet their SL specs.

elbert
09-10-2003, 11:23 AM
M1 5W-30 meets only ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5 and it does not meet BMW LongLife specs. Fine oil but not for extended drain intervals and I wouldn't use it if track your car.

Why not? (I'm asking about the track part, not the change intervals).

F1Crazy
09-10-2003, 11:45 AM
Why not? (I'm asking about the track part, not the change intervals).
Because High Temperature High Shear Viscosity, mPaˇs @ 150ēC is only 3.08, any ACEA A3/B3 oil has to be >3.5.
Under extreme conditions M1 5W-30 will start shearing down quicker than e.a. BMW synthetic (meeting ACEA A3/B3 specs) and it will provide less protection. This is one of the reasons that race engines run higher viscosity oils, most 40weights will have HTHS >3.5.

doeboy
09-10-2003, 11:54 AM
M1 5W-30 meets only ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5 and it does not meet BMW LongLife specs. Fine oil but not for extended drain intervals and I wouldn't use it if track your car.

:eeps: :eeps: :eeps:

MikeW
09-10-2003, 12:45 PM
Yes, but without them, all you have to go on is their advertising hype. And it isn't just the API rating (which I consider the absolute minimum point of entry). I like the M1 0w40 over any of their Xw30s because of the ACEA and BMW certs.

If Redline is too small to affort certification, especially for $8+ a quart oil, are they also too small to do enough testing to make sure it will work well in your car? I know ExMob can. Sometimes size counts.

There is nothing to be suspicious about, the certification is costly and small company like Red Line chooses not to do it. As far as API specs they are worthless IMO, you can find $.99 oils at Wal-Mart that meet their SL specs.

Andy
09-10-2003, 02:23 PM
Yes, but without them, all you have to go on is their advertising hype. And it isn't just the API rating (which I consider the absolute minimum point of entry). I like the M1 0w40 over any of their Xw30s because of the ACEA and BMW certs.

If Redline is too small to affort certification, especially for $8+ a quart oil, are they also too small to do enough testing to make sure it will work well in your car? I know ExMob can. Sometimes size counts.

The best way to find out if the oil is doing it's job is to have a Blackstone (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) oil analysis done. I plan on having one done at 5,000 and 7,500 miles.

F1Crazy
09-10-2003, 03:07 PM
Yes, but without them, all you have to go on is their advertising hype. And it isn't just the API rating (which I consider the absolute minimum point of entry). I like the M1 0w40 over any of their Xw30s because of the ACEA and BMW certs.

If Redline is too small to affort certification, especially for $8+ a quart oil, are they also too small to do enough testing to make sure it will work well in your car? I know ExMob can. Sometimes size counts.

I would like to see ACEA certification on Red Line oils but since they are not marketed in Europe this will never happen. I bet that most of their oils would see ACEA A3/B3 specs.

Red Line oils are sold mostly to car enthusiasts that would never put bad products in their cars and will extensively test them. Like Andy said the only way to find out how good these oils really are is to do used oil analysis and so far Red Line shows very good numbers. I don't use their engine oils simply because of the price, IMO they are not 2X better than M1 as price would indicate.

calvol
11-13-2003, 01:57 AM
made a difference in the engine sound... At 4,300 miles, I had changed to Redline 10w30 and the engine was noticeable smoother and quieter, and it only used 1/2 quart for about 5,000 miles...

Last month, after 5000 miles, I took it in to the dealer for an oil change (dealer used Castrol) (1 yr interval for low mileage cars), and as soon as I got it, I could tell the engine wasn't as quiet! Seems like I can hear more lifter noise... it's not noisy by any means, but not as quiet as it was with Redline...

I'll go back to Redline next oil change... It's about $18 more a change if you DIY, but spread the cost out over a 7500 mile change interval and it's only about the cost of a steak.

wrwicky
11-14-2003, 01:44 AM
The best way to find out if the oil is doing it's job is to have a Blackstone (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) oil analysis done. I plan on having one done at 5,000 and 7,500 miles.

Andy,
Did you take any samples yet? Inquiring oil nuts are dieing to know.

FWIW, I've sworn by Redline stuff in my racing bikes and the miata's gearbox, diff, and radiator. It always worked better than anything else I tried.