PDA

View Full Version : BMW Rear Foglight Petition


bluer1
09-23-2003, 08:32 AM
The BMW rear foglight petition is available at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/BMWfogs/petition.html

Details leading up to the petition can be found at:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39941

Toast
09-23-2003, 08:50 AM
Done. :D

SergioK
09-23-2003, 09:04 AM
Cool! :thumbup:

ff
09-23-2003, 02:35 PM
I'm not so sure. With the number of really (seriously) dumb/ignorant Americans on the road, they will probably think the foglight is intended as a tool of aggression, designed to annoy people behind you.

In any case, I signed the petition. :thumbup: :rofl:

Spectre
09-23-2003, 03:58 PM
Done. Too bad you can't read the signatures (and comments) to see what others are saying.

The Roadstergal
09-23-2003, 04:50 PM
Hmm, I'm not quite sure I get it.

It's a red light in the rear, on one side, for use in the fog? The point of fogs in front is to provide a yellow light low to the ground, since that setup penetrates fog better, as I understand it. But don't the rear tail-lights already provide a red light to the rear of the car, which is what the rear fog will do?

LMC
09-23-2003, 05:24 PM
It's a higher-wattage bulb (same as a brake light) to give better warning to those behind.

Hmm, I'm not quite sure I get it.

It's a red light in the rear, on one side, for use in the fog? The point of fogs in front is to provide a yellow light low to the ground, since that setup penetrates fog better, as I understand it. But don't the rear tail-lights already provide a red light to the rear of the car, which is what the rear fog will do?

OBS3SSION
09-23-2003, 06:32 PM
39 Signatures including mine :thumbup:

operknockity
09-23-2003, 06:40 PM
Has it been advertised on the other BMW boards?

OBS3SSION
09-23-2003, 07:06 PM
How many signatures were gathered before MINI began to offer the fog light?

Also, should this be brought to the Roundel's attention? Their news blurbs in the beginning of the magazine might be a great spot for promoting this...

jpherit
09-23-2003, 07:15 PM
The BMW rear foglight petition is available at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/BMWfogs/petition.html

Details leading up to the petition can be found at:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39941

I strongly support this petition.

:drive:

LDV330i
09-23-2003, 10:13 PM
The BMW rear foglight petition is available at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/BMWfogs/petition.html

Details leading up to the petition can be found at:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39941

Signed the petition. :)

Did wire up the rear foglights in my VW Corrado and felt more reassured when driving in the rain. :thumbup:

It is hard to believe that we have to have a petition drive to get something as basic as this for driver's safety activated and made part of the standard specs. :rolleyes:

mppaz
09-23-2003, 10:26 PM
Done. Thanks for your work on this :thumbup:

andy_thomas
09-24-2003, 03:01 AM
Hmm, I'm not quite sure I get it.

It's a red light in the rear, on one side, for use in the fog? The point of fogs in front is to provide a yellow light low to the ground, since that setup penetrates fog better, as I understand it. But don't the rear tail-lights already provide a red light to the rear of the car, which is what the rear fog will do?

Maybe you don't have serious fog in the US, although obviously you do because the country is huge :).

You're driving down a country lane in thick fog at 30-35 mph. A car pulls out slowly in front of you, far enough ahead for its regular taillights and outline to be obscured by the low visibility. When you see the taillights, you drop the anchors. Do you hit the car in front? Maybe not, if you're sharp, alert and a good driver. Maybe, if you can only see his taillights from 20 yards away. Definitely, if you're not concentrating/drinking latte/arguing with passenger/fiddling with sat-nav/cleaning your gun.

One mild issue is that a foglight is often designed to provide the same intensity as the brakelight. (Not BMW; its foglights lens/reflector design provides a sharper, more focused light than the more general pool of bright light provided by the brake lights.) But foglights are usually only provided on one side, or if there are two, they are separate and distinct from the main lamp cluster (look at an Audi A6).

At the end of the day, idiots will always be idiots. They leave their lights off in the dark, they switch their foglights on in broad daylight, they bash into each other, they don't pay their parking tickets and they generally bugger up the roads for the rest of us. I wouldn't want useful safety feature removed or disabled because we can't trust a manure-for-brains minority not to misuse it.

Dirtboy
09-24-2003, 04:18 AM
Signed! :thumbup:


edit: just saw that MINI owners got over 700 signatures.... what's up with our 55 sigs? was the petition just started?

FrenchBoy
09-24-2003, 04:38 AM
I am all for it! :thumbup:

I signed as well. Let's keep the ball rolling...

FrenchBoy

KevinR
09-24-2003, 06:35 AM
I'd sign it, but I'm not a current BMW owner.

BTW, I believe in them enough that I enabled the rear fog light on my '00 VW Jetta. (It required a new headlight switch, some wire and connectors and a bulb. Total cost ~$100.)

operknockity
09-24-2003, 07:04 AM
just saw that MINI owners got over 700 signatures.... what's up with our 55 sigs? was the petition just started?
Yes.

Mystikal
09-24-2003, 07:13 AM
The problem is that people have NO IDEA what they are for. I saw an E-Class last week, on the sunniest of sunny days, with the front AND rear fogs running. :mad:

OBS3SSION
09-24-2003, 09:48 AM
The problem is that people have NO IDEA what they are for. I saw an E-Class last week, on the sunniest of sunny days, with the front AND rear fogs running. :mad:

I blame that on...

1) Lack of driver training.
2) Lack of feature review on delivery.
3) Lack of traffic law enforcement.

So, does this country of ours cater to the idiots? Disabling the rear fog feature because we'd rather not train the idiots as to what they are for is not the answer. As enthusiasts, every one of us signing the petition know what they are for and how to use them correctly. Perhaps the best solution is to make them available as a no/low cost option, or as a programming option along with door locks, DRLs, etc.

Pinecone
09-24-2003, 10:10 AM
But:

1) how do we train all the owners?

2) Is it illegal to run front or rear fogs during times of no fog?

I have seen many Audis and MB running the rear fogs on clear nights, and they are ANNOYING.

JonM
09-24-2003, 10:35 AM
Rear fogs work. If used properly.

http://www.leatherz.com/pics/coupes/lz2/rearfog.jpg

The Roadstergal
09-24-2003, 10:51 AM
It's a higher-wattage bulb (same as a brake light) to give better warning to those behind.

Ah, gotcha.

Andy
09-24-2003, 11:05 AM
I just signed the petition. I was #66. :thumbup:

Question for you guys...

When it's overcast, or at dusk, or at dawn I will drive with my parking lights and fog lights on. I do this because I feel it's safer, so people can see me coming, kind'a like "day time driving lights". I could just use the parking lights, but figure those aren't as noticeable. I could just turn my Xenon headlights on, but figure that the Xenons aren't really needed during these conditions and would actually annoy people (being super bright and all). I never realized that fog lights are annoying to oncoming drivers. Is that true? Are they brighter then the Xenons? I didn't have my car programmed for the actual "day time driving lights" because I want to be in control of when they're on and when they're off. Driving with fog lights on during the day, being "bad etiquette" is the first I've heard of it. What do you guys do during dusk, dawn or overcast days?

Flame me if you want, but I've been a car enthusiasts for years and honestly never heard of this.

bluer1
09-24-2003, 03:01 PM
Signed! :thumbup:
edit: just saw that MINI owners got over 700 signatures.... what's up with our 55 sigs? was the petition just started?

Yes.

I've been trying to work through the issue as a retrofit and only recently contacted someone at BMWNA who verified that it's a vehicle programming issue (on later model E46s at least, which is all I have direct experience with).

It's still being run up the chain in BMWNA - with the verbal addendum that I'm "somewhat representing a number of BMW owners." Since it's now known that BMWNA would have to release appropriate software, I figured it was time to go ahead and start gathering names.

My theory is that when (and if) BMWNA contacts me again, I'll be able to quantify that group of owners, which will hopefully carry more weight than just a single individual's request. I've tried to be careful to use the E46 as an example, but not reference the request exclusively to the E46.

bluer1
09-24-2003, 03:16 PM
How many signatures were gathered before MINI began to offer the fog light?

Also, should this be brought to the Roundel's attention? Their news blurbs in the beginning of the magazine might be a great spot for promoting this...

Sorry - I completely missed this earlier.

Absolutely! I was planning to allow some time to pass before involving Roundel, as the task of working as a go-between for an owner and BMWNA falls on BMWCCA Ombudsmen, not Roundel.

While I agree that Roundel is the perfect vehicle (pun intended) to get the word out, I had planned to not involve them or BMWCCA until I had (hopefully) heard back from BMWNA.

In the interim, I'll go ahead and start trying to track down someone at Roundel regarding the news blurb bit - that's a fine idea, and I've been stumped as to how to get the word more widely spread.

Obviously, feel free to pass the word along to any clubs, lists, etc. as you see fit.

bluer1
09-24-2003, 07:23 PM
Bill Howard at Roundel was easy enough to track down - the Roudel folks publish their email addresses with their columns.
:thumbup:

I believe Mr. Howard runs the "Briefs" section - I just emailed him with some preliminary information, links to the relevant posts here, and the petition. (Yes, including this one - he'll undoubtedly see this post if he pursues it.)

More than anything, I'm hopeful that he might have recently been in touch with the folks at BMWNA responsible for the Mini retrofit. If so, he might be able to shortcut our (my?) request to the proper desk at BMWNA.

Dirtboy
09-25-2003, 02:47 AM
@bluer1 ok, i helped out a little bit. i spread the word on some other forums that i goto.... bimmerforums.com, bmw330ci.com, renn-sport.net, and on my car club's forum (which has international members who will help out). hope this gets more signatures... :thumbup:

vern
09-25-2003, 06:11 AM
IMO I think that the rear fog light is a great addition safety wise so your chances of getting rear ended in the fog are less.But on the other hand the vast majority of the people that are signing the petition are the same people that don't want DRL's ( for safety),amber Directional signals( for safety),amber bumper reflector( for safety). How do you figure that? Safety should be the number one priority!!.
vern

Nick325xiT 5spd
09-25-2003, 06:19 AM
I just signed the petition. I was #66. :thumbup:

Question for you guys...

When it's overcast, or at dusk, or at dawn I will drive with my parking lights and fog lights on. I do this because I feel it's safer, so people can see me coming, kind'a like "day time driving lights". I could just use the parking lights, but figure those aren't as noticeable. I could just turn my Xenon headlights on, but figure that the Xenons aren't really needed during these conditions and would actually annoy people (being super bright and all). I never realized that fog lights are annoying to oncoming drivers. Is that true? Are they brighter then the Xenons? I didn't have my car programmed for the actual "day time driving lights" because I want to be in control of when they're on and when they're off. Driving with fog lights on during the day, being "bad etiquette" is the first I've heard of it. What do you guys do during dusk, dawn or overcast days?

Flame me if you want, but I've been a car enthusiasts for years and honestly never heard of this.
Foglights don't have a cutoff, so they can glare more than your xenons.

FrenchBoy
09-25-2003, 06:25 AM
... amber bumper reflector( for safety) ...
vern

Vern

Can you explain to me exactly how you feel that amber bumper reflectors increase safety??

It is interesting to me that for some reason amber bumper reflectors are mandatory as a safety feature only in North America, whereas side markers (side turn signal repeaters) and rear fog lamps are not mandatory even though they appear to me to be much more useful.

Interesting also that Europe is the very opposite: side markers and rear fog lamps are mandatory, but amber bumper reflectors are non-existent on european cars.

FrenchBoy

vern
09-25-2003, 06:33 AM
Vern

Can you explain to me exactly how you feel that amber bumper reflectors increase safety??

It is interesting to me that for some reason amber bumper reflectors are mandatory as a safety feature only in North America, whereas side markers (side turn signal repeaters) and rear fog lamps are not mandatory even though they appear to me to be much more useful.

Interesting also that Europe is the very opposite: side markers and rear fog lamps are mandatory, but amber bumper reflectors are non-existent on european cars.

FrenchBoy
You will have to go to D.O.T for that one.
vern

Andy
09-25-2003, 07:06 AM
Foglights don't have a cutoff, so they can glare more than your xenons.

Thanks Nick, I did not know that. Too bad there is not a switch for daytime driving lights that would allow you to turn them on when wanted and switch them off when you don't. I just feel it would bug the crap out of me if those things were on 24/7... then again it would be safer, so maybe I should think about it (maybe even rig up my own switch).


IMO I think that the rear fog light is a great addition safety wise so your chances of getting rear ended in the fog are less.But on the other hand the vast majority of the people that are signing the petition are the same people that don't want DRL's ( for safety),amber Directional signals( for safety),amber bumper reflector( for safety). How do you figure that? Safety should be the number one priority!!.
vern

Vern, I have a set of the OEM clear turn signals installed on my car with the amber colored bulbs... I think that is plenty safe. Now those guys that install those clear or blue (when lit) bulbs, well.... that's just plain stupid!!

FrenchBoy
09-25-2003, 07:08 AM
You will have to go to D.O.T for that one.
vern

No. You seem to agree that amber bumper reflectors do actually increase safety. What is YOUR opinion and rationale.

FrenchBoy

Bobby 325i
09-25-2003, 07:50 AM
I signed the petition too:D. BMWNA should really make this a standard feature like Mercedes and Audi. Just a few weeks ago we had a bad rain storm and I was following my father who was in our Mercedes truck and I was behind him in the BMW. It was night time with heavy rain/fog/ and mist kicking up from the back of the truck. I was around 600-700 feet behind him and the rear fogs on the truck were noticiable from a good 2000 feet.:thumbup: We really need this on our cars!:tsk:

vern
09-25-2003, 08:30 AM
No. You seem to agree that amber bumper reflectors do actually increase safety. What is YOUR opinion and rationale.

FrenchBoy
You get better reflection with amber in front and red in the rear in all weather conditions " D.O.T." I agree.

bluer1
09-25-2003, 06:07 PM
Email to Bill Howard is being delayed (not exactly bouncing yet) from both my personal and corporate accounts. I fully expect it to bounce.

:thumbdwn:

Dirtboy
09-30-2003, 04:53 AM
hmmm, only 97 signatures? :(

OBS3SSION
09-30-2003, 05:01 AM
Perhaps a mod can "Sticky" this thread...?

bluer1
09-30-2003, 07:40 AM
All email to Bill Howard at Roundel bounces.

I'm planning to send out paper letters, CC'ing everyone I have an address for.

LmtdSlip
10-03-2003, 09:42 AM
But:

1) how do we train all the owners?

2) Is it illegal to run front or rear fogs during times of no fog?

I have seen many Audis and MB running the rear fogs on clear nights, and they are ANNOYING.

Exactly. I hate all those drivers that run their fog lights all the time.
Thats exactly why I wont sign this petition. I am so tired of seeing all of thse three series drivers with their fogs on w/o headlights on.

Until us idiot americans learn to drive properly you cant trust us with rear fog lights.

OBS3SSION
10-06-2003, 05:08 AM
Exactly. I hate all those drivers that run their fog lights all the time.
Thats exactly why I wont sign this petition. I am so tired of seeing all of thse three series drivers with their fogs on w/o headlights on.

Until us idiot americans learn to drive properly you cant trust us with rear fog lights.

Well, with a petition like this, only those of us that KNOW how and when to use the rear foglight are going to request that they are activated. I'm guessing it will be like MINI, where the owner needs to specify that they want it activated. In that case, the idiots who are clueless about the rear fog won't even know to have it activated, and thus can't drive around looking like morons with it on in the middle of a bright and sunny day.