M Coupe: 1999 vs. 2002

[Wingboot]

Did anybody own a new M Coupe with 240 hp and sell it to buy a 315 hp version? I want an M Coupe and the 99s have started to get into my comfortable price range. However, I feel that maybe I should wait until a 2002 drops in price. I have read some magazines that say the older car was real nice on the street due to the gearing and torque but of course the 315 hp car would run away on the top end. Any thoughts from those who have driven the cars?

[Alex Baumann]

Sorry, but AFAIK, there's no 240 hp engine in BMW's program. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The 3.0 L which comes in the M-Coupe (which is called the Z3 coupe) has 225hp in US version (Source:Edmunds) and 231 hp in European version.

Alex

[ALEX325i]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann
Sorry, but AFAIK, there's no 240 hp engine in BMW's program. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The 3.0 L which comes in the M-Coupe (which is called the Z3 coupe) has 225hp in US version (Source:Edmunds) and 231 hp in European version.

Alex

Alex, as far as I know, US-spec M Roadsters and Coupes do have 240HP engines. The 02's have 315HP engines.

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by ALEX325i


Alex, as far as I know, US-spec M Roadsters and Coupes do have 240HP engines. The 02's have 315HP engines.

Check the Edmunds site. I didn't see an engine with 240hp. Maybe my bad.

The Z3 Coupe shares the same 3.0 Liter engine with the E46 330 (225 hp)

[Wingboot]

Alex,

It’s true that the current Z3 Coupe / Roadster does share the 3.0 liter engine with the 330s and the previous Z3 Coupe / Roadster shared the 328s 2.8 liter engine. The pre 2002 M Coupes / M Roadsters had the same 240 hp engine that powered the U.S. spec M3. The U.S. market finally gets the high hp 3.2 liter engines that the rest of the world gets in their M3s and M Coupes / M Roadsters. The M Coupe / M Roadster fans had to wait one additional year before they got the 3.2 liter engine. The M3 is stated to have 3.2L 333 hp and the M Coupe now has 3.2L 315 hp in the U.S. specs. The power is slightly lower in the M Coupe / M Roadster due to the exhaust layout.

Obviously the M Coupe is a car you either love or hate and I have always been in the love it category. It is a true classic in this age where even some great cars lack a real sense of individual style. It’s retro and forward thinking at the same time. I think it’s retro without over doing for the sake of being retro like the VW Bug and Ford T-bird. Anyway, I think I will wait until the 2002s drop in price to around $28,000 to $32,000 before I get one.

[Wingboot]

Maybe I should just break down and buy this one for $27,500. Damn tempting. I just wish it wasn’t on the opposite coast.:cry:

[blackdawg]

just wait for the s54 engine'd coupes to be on the market for about a year. they're too unique and a lot of people will cash out and trade in for an m3 or something with more "luster".

it will be a bargain.

pro's: you will have all the HP you'll ever need unless your name is M. Schumacher

con's: you hafta wait. big deal.

[Wingboot]

I think you are right blawkdawg. I have my 325 to keep me company until then :)

[ALEX325i]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann


Check the Edmunds site. I didn't see an engine with 240hp. Maybe my bad.

The Z3 Coupe shares the same 3.0 Liter engine with the E46 330 (225 hp)

'00 M Coupe... (http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/bmw/m/2drmcoupe/specs.html?id=lin0066) :thumb:

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by ALEX325i


'00 M Coupe... (http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/bmw/m/2drmcoupe/specs.html?id=lin0066) :thumb:

Thanks Alex. Interesting, this engine doesn't show up in my BMW books. The early M engine (all Euro spec), which came in E36 M3 between 1992-1995 had 286hp, the one between 1995-1999 had 321 hp.

But the engine which you guys are talking about has really impressive performance figures, acc. to the Edmunds site.

[Randy Forbes]

Wingboot,

I bought the 99///M Rdstr to hold me over until the 01 became available. The 99 is a CPO that I got in November 2000.
After getting the 01///M Rdstr (picked up at the factory during HC01), it was decided to keep them both.

They're both great cars, but if I had to choose just one, it would definately be the 2001.

[TD]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann


Thanks Alex. Interesting, this engine doesn't show up in my BMW books. The early M engine (all Euro spec), which came in E36 M3 between 1992-1995 had 286hp, the one between 1995-1999 had 321 hp.

But the engine which you guys are talking about has really impressive performance figures, acc. to the Edmunds site.

You're looking at the Euro E36 M3 motors. The US-spec S52 is the 240hp 3.2L engine that was in the US-bound 96-99 M3s (including mine). It has not as much HP as the Euro version but it has lots of torque, especially down low. So, compared to the Euro motor, the only place it really falls short is at the top end (where HP truly matters). And in the US, top end is far less relevent than accelleration (which is largely a factor of torque).

And I ran with one of those 240HP M Coupes on the track this weekend and that car is DAMN fast. The weight advantage is huge over my sedan, at least down the main straight where he'd just pull away.

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by TD


You're looking at the Euro E36 M3 motors. The US-spec S52 is the 240hp 3.2L engine that was in the US-bound 96-99 M3s (including mine). It has not as much HP as the Euro version but it has lots of torque, especially down low. So, compared to the Euro motor, the only place it really falls short is at the top end (where HP truly matters). And in the US, top end is far less relevent than accelleration (which is largely a factor of torque).

And I ran with one of those 240HP M Coupes on the track this weekend and that car is DAMN fast. The weight advantage is huge over my sedan, at least down the main straight where he'd just pull away.

I think, that would be a great engine to have in the E46. With a slight factory modification, that engine would have around 260 hp, which IMO, would put an end to the hp discussion.

What do you think ?

[TD]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann


I think, that would be a great engine to have in the E46. With a slight factory modification, that engine would have around 260 hp, which IMO, would put an end to the hp discussion.

What do you think ?

It's can't be quite that simple or we'd have 332i and 332Ci models on the road right now instead of 330s. I mean, this engine was in the '96-'99 US M3s and in the US M Coupes and Roadsters through '01/'02-ish (whenever the exhaust-limited 315HP E46 M3 engine went into it).

I'm sure that there are many other considerations including emissions, on-going engine development and cross-use issues, plus concerns about the S52's noise and gearing setup (the US E36 M3 is geared such that, at highway speeds, you're running relatively high RPMs - which can be loud - and is not generally associated with a "luxury" car).

And, maybe, since it is an "//M" engine, they don't want to use it in non-//M cars on principle alone.

So those are my guesses as to why not...

[TD]

Originally posted by TD



But, it's just can't be quite that simple or we'd have 332i and 332Ci models on the road right now instead of 330s. I mean, this engine was in the '96-'99 US M3s and in the US M Coupes and Roadsters through '01/'02-ish (whenever the exhaust-limited 315HP E46 M3 engine went into it).

To make things even more perplexing (from your question's point-of-view), the US '95 M3s had a 3.0L engine which put out 240HP but had less torque than the 3.2L. Early on, there was some speculation that the 3.0L M54 engine (in the 330s) was just an update of it (it's not).

I'm sure that there are many other considerations including emissions, on-going engine development and cross-use issues, plus concerns about the S52's noise and gearing setup (the US E36 M3 is geared such that, at highway speeds, you're running relatively high RPMs - which can be loud - and is not generally associated with a "luxury" car).

And, maybe, since it is an "//M" engine, they don't want to use it in non-//M cars on principle alone.

So those are my guesses as to why not...

[Teej]

Originally posted by TD


You're looking at the Euro E36 M3 motors. The US-spec S52 is the 240hp 3.2L engine that was in the US-bound 96-99 M3s (including mine). It has not as much HP as the Euro version but it has lots of torque, especially down low. So, compared to the Euro motor, the only place it really falls short is at the top end (where HP truly matters). And in the US, top end is far less relevent than accelleration (which is largely a factor of torque).

And I ran with one of those 240HP M Coupes on the track this weekend and that car is DAMN fast. The weight advantage is huge over my sedan, at least down the main straight where he'd just pull away.

So how was it TD?!! I've been waiting for a report.. :D
I was there Saturday afternoon, around 3-3:30. I was hoping to run into Hunter or Lil Raja...but no such luck. Maybe then were there in the morning half... :dunno:
Boy it looked like a ton of fun!! You have a black 2-dr, right? If the one I saw was you...man your M3 sounds awesome! Did you do anything to your exhaust or is it stock? For some reason it sounded different than the other M3's on the track...better. Oh and that M5 exhaust music gave me goosebumps! Nice...deep gurgle... :D
I liked the fact that there was a 323/325 too!! Oh and that old e30 M3 was nice too! I gotta do it next time....

[blackdawg]

how was the track day overall?

get a feel for the e36m3 at the limits?

that car is so much easier to manuever around the track. wheelbase plus a modern rear suspension works wonders, especially on tracks which are bumpy and tend to put the semitrailing rear end of the e30m3's and e36/8 (coupe)'s out of shape. fun once experienced, hairy to learn to live with.

[blackdawg]

sorry:

if i hadn't invested time and money to supercharge my S52 M coupe, i would have turned it in quickly to get into an S54 engine'd M coupe.

my M coupe isn't a keeper, either. the allure and wail of a flat six is calling me like a siren.

[TD]

Originally posted by Teej


So how was it TD?!! I've been waiting for a report.. :D
I was there Saturday afternoon, around 3-3:30. I was hoping to run into Hunter or Lil Raja...but no such luck. Maybe then were there in the morning half... :dunno:
Boy it looked like a ton of fun!! You have a black 2-dr, right? If the one I saw was you...man your M3 sounds awesome! Did you do anything to your exhaust or is it stock? For some reason it sounded different than the other M3's on the track...better. Oh and that M5 exhaust music gave me goosebumps! Nice...deep gurgle... :D
I liked the fact that there was a 323/325 too!! Oh and that old e30 M3 was nice too! I gotta do it next time....

Really! You came out? Hunter (CD-55) was there from ~10-11am until about 5pm. He took all of the pics I have of me on the track.

And, no, I had the only M3 SEDAN out there on Sautrday. There were 4 or 5 BLACK E36 M3 coupes. And about 5 or 6 E30 M3s of various colors. No exhaust mods on mine either. Obviously, you were watching one of the coupes, although I'd have a hard time guessing which one. Depending on which run group, it might have been a damn fast one too. Those A group students know their sh*t.

(I was also surprised at the fact that there were 3 E39 M5s out there being driven VERY VERY hard.)

In my run group (the novice C group) there were 2 black E36 M3s, two other E36 M3s, one E30 M3, one E46 non-SP 328i (with non-step auto tranny), one non-SP 330i, one 240hp M Coupe, one E30 325e and one E30 318is.

The only wreck of the weekend was the E30 M3 in my run group who lost it in the heavy rain on Sunday coming out of turn 2. He impacted the inside berm with his right front corner. We're all guessing $2-3K of damage. He was an especially nice guy, so we all felt bad that it happened to him. As we're all novices in that run group, we all realized that it could have just as easily been one of us.

You haven't lived until you've driven through twisties over uneven, oily pavement, with both front windows down at really high speeds in the pouring rain. THAT was my Sunday. And those pics are still on the camera (too tired to offload them last night).

Here are the only two pics from Saturday that I uploaded to webspace-

http://members.roadfly.com/Holden/P3300012b.jpg

http://members.roadfly.com/Holden/P3300026b.jpg

I'll upload and post more pics and do a long write-up later this week when I get more time.

Too bad I missed you on Saturday. I never saw Lil Raja either (although, as I've never met him, I wouldn't know him if I saw him).

[TD]

Originally posted by blackdawg
how was the track day overall?

get a feel for the e36m3 at the limits?

that car is so much easier to manuever around the track. wheelbase plus a modern rear suspension works wonders, especially on tracks which are bumpy and tend to put the semitrailing rear end of the e30m3's and e36/8 (coupe)'s out of shape. fun once experienced, hairy to learn to live with.

Overall, awesome. It's guaranteed to become a new (expensive) addiction.

As for testing the M3's limits - My limits are still far short of the car's limits. I pushed the hard very hard but saw bone-stock M3s exponentially out-performing me. While I academically know that the driver is more important than the car, this weekend truly brought that point home in a way nothing else could.

(I watched a bone stock except for tires E46 323i SP 5-spd in the A group hanging tight with M3s and M5s. And an instructor driven Subaru WRX hanging very tight as well.)

As I said in my reply to Teej, a more detailed review will be posted when I get time.

[Wingboot]

TD,

Thanks, I am anxious to see your full report. I live in the area and am interested in taking my car to Summit Point as well. I would have come out to watch but I really wanted to see the F1 race live. I may get in on the next school :D

By the way did BMW CCA membership help on the cost? How much did the weekend cost you?

[TD]

Originally posted by Wingboot
TD,

Thanks, I am anxious to see your full report. I live in the area and am interested in taking my car to Summit Point as well. I would have come out to watch but I really wanted to see the F1 race live. I may get in on the next school :D

By the way did BMW CCA membership help on the cost? How much did the weekend cost you?

You know, I have not fully tabulated the cost yet. Actually, I had not intended to.

I purchased a helmet and neck brace for the event but I assume I'll get more use out of them at other track events and when autocrossing. But, with tax, they ran about $400.

If I recall correctly, the school itself was $350 for both days. And I blew through some gas, brakes, tires and general misc wear and tear. Had I stayed out there overnight, it would have added another, what, $60-80 for a Comfort Inn-caliber hotel room in Charles Town (15-20 minutes away from the track).

And, IMO, worth every penny.

[Wingboot]

Do you know if that weekend qualifies for a driving school required to get an SCCA racing license? I know that one must attend two courses to get a license but I’m not sure if they have to be more “serious” courses that require a track car with a roll cage. Those courses are much more expensive especially considering that you have to have you own prepped car or rent one.

[Teej]

Originally posted by TD


Really! You came out? Hunter (CD-55) was there from ~10-11am until about 5pm. He took all of the pics I have of me on the track.

And, no, I had the only M3 SEDAN out there on Sautrday. There were 4 or 5 BLACK E36 M3 coupes. And about 5 or 6 E30 M3s of various colors. No exhaust mods on mine either. Obviously, you were watching one of the coupes, although I'd have a hard time guessing which one. Depending on which run group, it might have been a damn fast one too. Those A group students know their sh*t.

(I was also surprised at the fact that there were 3 E39 M5s out there being driven VERY VERY hard.)

In my run group (the novice C group) there were 2 black E36 M3s, two other E36 M3s, one E30 M3, one E46 non-SP 328i (with non-step auto tranny), one non-SP 330i, one 240hp M Coupe, one E30 325e and one E30 318is.

The only wreck of the weekend was the E30 M3 in my run group who lost it in the heavy rain on Sunday coming out of turn 2. He impacted the inside berm with his right front corner. We're all guessing $2-3K of damage. He was an especially nice guy, so we all felt bad that it happened to him. As we're all novices in that run group, we all realized that it could have just as easily been one of us.

You haven't lived until you've driven through twisties over uneven, oily pavement, with both front windows down at really high speeds in the pouring rain. THAT was my Sunday. And those pics are still on the camera (too tired to offload them last night).

Here are the only two pics from Saturday that I uploaded to webspace-


I'll upload and post more pics and do a long write-up later this week when I get more time.

Too bad I missed you on Saturday. I never saw Lil Raja either (although, as I've never met him, I wouldn't know him if I saw him).

oh ya doh...don't know how I forgot you have a sedan! Lucky you!! Don't know how I missed Hunter...I was looking for his car (silver 330ci, right?) but didn't see it. I saw a e36 and a M e30 parked lil after the entrance. And a nice silver e46 M3 near the second lookout tower (not sure what they're called...) I did see people on the towers...maybe he was on one of them.

Actuallu, I must have watched some other group, because there was a light blue (not sure what the actual color is...) M5 in the group. And an older 911, and a 928 I think, along with other e36 M3's, 330ci, etc.. so where were you guys when the other groups were on the track?

Oh and nice pics!! :thumb:

[TD]

Originally posted by Teej


oh ya doh...don't know how I forgot you have a sedan! Lucky you!! Don't know how I missed Hunter...I was looking for his car (silver 330ci, right?) but didn't see it. I saw a e36 and a M e30 parked lil after the entrance. And a nice silver e46 M3 near the second lookout tower (not sure what they're called...) I did see people on the towers...maybe he was on one of them.

Actuallu, I must have watched some other group, because there was a light blue (not sure what the actual color is...) M5 in the group. And an older 911, and a 928 I think, along with other e36 M3's, 330ci, etc.. so where were you guys when the other groups were on the track?

Oh and nice pics!! :thumb:

You're describing cars the A group. They're FAST.

The guys in the "towers" (we actually call them "buckets") are the "corner workers" and they wave the various warning flags.

Hunter and his car we're all over. He was going to various spots off the track to watch and take pics. I'd see him in a different place every few laps. (His hat made him obvious.)

The E46 M3 was driven by a corner worker. Work 3 days and you get a free school day.

When you're not on the track you're either hanging out, catching a ride with one of the instructors (who drive FAST), in the classroom, or out on the skidpad.

FYI, registration for the July 7th school opens May 3rd.

[Wingboot]

TD,

I found it interesting when you said “Work 3 days and you get a free school day.”

I just happen to be in between jobs and have too much time on my hands, not by choice. Would you know whom I could contact to work for track time?

Thanks.

[TD]

Originally posted by Wingboot
TD,

I found it interesting when you said “Work 3 days and you get a free school day.”

I just happen to be in between jobs and have too much time on my hands, not by choice. Would you know whom I could contact to work for track time?

Thanks.

Are you on the NCC email list?

The last email was soliciting corner workers (wait, that doesn't sound right). I just dug it up in my inbox. Here's the relevent chunk cut-and-pasted in:

------

March
21 der Bayerische deadline for articles, photos and Car of the Month
Have a BMW story to share? Tech tip? Favorite road?
Send it to the editor <db-editor@nccbmwcca.org> of the der Bayerische.

30-31 Summit Point Raceway, Summit Point, WV
The school is FULL.
See the new admissions policy at
http://www.nccbmwcca.org/drivers-school/brochures/admissions-policy.html

This is our first drivers' school of the year, and if you're not
driving, you can volunteer to work the course and help out your BMW Car Club. Workers who have participated at past events with expanded knowledge and experience are also in demand for our events. So start adding to your own driving skills today by just participating as a BMW club corner worker.

Remember: Each worker will get credit towards a FREE day of drivers' school. It takes only 3 working days to earn a FREE day.

To sign up as a worker send an email to our Chief of Workers,
Steve Lowry (pitout@hotmail.com).

[Wingboot]

Thanks TD :thumb:

[GB]

I was a corner worker on Sunday...wanted to get a feel for what the overall event was like before registering for the driver's school. Will definitely send in the registration for the next one!

And the turn 5 bucket is a great place to hang out if you work...seeing/hearing those m5's was very cool. My big moment was having to wave the "debris" flag for one lap after a small orange pylon was dislodged by a car on turn 6. So not much excitement, but you do get to see what line everyone is taking (or trying to take) through the second half of the track. And free lunch!

[TD]

Originally posted by GB
I was a corner worker on Sunday...wanted to get a feel for what the overall event was like before registering for the driver's school. Will definitely send in the registration for the next one!

And the turn 5 bucket is a great place to hang out if you work...seeing/hearing those m5's was very cool. My big moment was having to wave the "debris" flag for one lap after a small orange pylon was dislodged by a car on turn 6. So not much excitement, but you do get to see what line everyone is taking (or trying to take) through the second half of the track. And free lunch!

I remember that run. The cone was out there in turn 6 during our C group 2nd or 3rd run of the day. Fortunately, it was just off the line so, unless you were off-line yourself, it was not in the way.

What a crappy day to be outside all day, though.

[nate]

Originally posted by TD


I remember that run. The cone was out there in turn 6 during our C group 2nd or 3rd run of the day. Fortunately, it was just off the line so, unless you were off-line yourself, it was not in the way.

What a crappy day to be outside all day, though.

You think that was bad. In March for the DE here, the track actually flooded overnight. And, in Louisiana, there is a lot of mud. The workers were out trying to sweep as much mud an other debris off the course. They obviously couldn't get it all of and besides a wet track, there was mud in some of the apexes. The mud eventually got pushed off and the track mostly dried out by the afternoon, until it started raining again. A Porshe spun off the course into the mud and got stuck, when they towed it off a mud was smeared across the apex of a sweeper. Needless to day, every time we would be careful there. And if you went off the track in the middle, there was a large lake that formed. You would be swimming out :eeps:

[TD]

Originally posted by nate328Ci


You think that was bad. In March for the DE here, the track actually flooded overnight. And, in Louisiana, there is a lot of mud. The workers were out trying to sweep as much mud an other debris off the course. They obviously couldn't get it all of and besides a wet track, there was mud in some of the apexes. The mud eventually got pushed off and the track mostly dried out by the afternoon, until it started raining again. A Porshe spun off the course into the mud and got stuck, when they towed it off a mud was smeared across the apex of a sweeper. Needless to day, every time we would be careful there. And if you went off the track in the middle, there was a large lake that formed. You would be swimming out :eeps:

Wait until I post the pics from Sunday. The apex of turn 7 was truly a lake. You had to significantly adjust your line. We're talking a lake 15 ft wide and about 40 ft long on the inside of that turn. It must have been 6-8 inches deep at it's deepest point.

The cone mentioned above was in the middle of the track surface in the turn right before the "lake". And there were plenty of streams too.

Truly an educational day at the track.

[nate]

Originally posted by TD


Wait until I post the pics from Sunday. The apex of turn 7 was truly a lake. You had to significantly adjust your line. We're talking a lake 15 ft wide and about 40 ft long on the inside of that turn. It must have been 6-8 inches deep at it's deepest point.

The cone mentioned above was in the middle of the track surface in the turn right before the "lake". And there were plenty of streams too.

Truly an educational day at the track.

Did your instructor have you take the "rim shot" line around the circumferance of the turn? Or late apex it? It is often less slick...

[TD]

Originally posted by nate328Ci


Did your instructor have you take the "rim shot" line around the circumferance of the turn? Or late apex it? It is often less slick...

In the case of that turn, we did both. By late apexing it, you ended up tracing the edge of the pond ("rim shot", eh?).

It would have been silly to go through it.

[nate]

Originally posted by TD


In the case of that turn, we did both. By late apexing it, you ended up tracing the edge of the pond ("rim shot", eh?).

It would have been silly to go through it.

It is in the manual :p

[TD]

Originally posted by nate328Ci


It is in the manual :p

That looks like "Going Faster".

No, we did not take THAT rim line. We merely late apexed which took us roughly along the edge of the standing water.

At the relatively lower speeds I was driving (not wanting to stuff my M3), that line provided plenty of grip.

[nate]

Originally posted by TD


That looks like "Going Faster".

No, we did not take THAT rim line. We merely late apexed which took us roughly along the edge of the standing water.

At the relatively lower speeds I was driving (not wanting to stuff my M3), that line provided plenty of grip.

Yea, "Going Faster!"

You neet to destroy those Contis in favor of S-03s :p Or maybe the new Esteca MX :thumb:

[TD]

Originally posted by nate328Ci


Yea, "Going Faster!"

You neet to destroy those Contis in favor of S-03s :p Or maybe the new Esteca MX :thumb:

I'm on my second read of it now that I've had two days on the track.

I was doing research and right now I AM leaning toward the S-03s when the Contis do crap out. But, as a novice, the Contis served me well. They provided plenty of grip and gave up in a predictable fashion. Good novice school tires. Too bad they didn't wear much.

[nate]

Originally posted by TD


I'm on my second read of it now that I've had two days on the track.

I was doing research and right now I AM leaning toward the S-03s when the Contis do crap out. But, as a novice, the Contis served me well. They provided plenty of grip and gave up in a predictable fashion. Good novice school tires. Too bad they didn't wear much.

I noticed no real track or auto-x wear on my S-03s. Might want to consider those Kuhmo MXs, they claim to have better performance....