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cac3a
05-07-2010, 12:23 PM
I'm just interested really what is covered by CPO and what is not. It doesn't seem that a lot is covered based on my reading on the BMW site.
They say this is covered:
# Engine
# Automatic/Manual Transmission
# Front Suspension
# Rear Suspension
# Steering
# Brakes
# ABS Brake System
# Electrical
# Air Conditioning/Heating System
# Cooling System
# Interior/Exterior
# Fuel System
# Final Drive Assembly, Propeller Shaft

And this is not covered:

Upkeep Items
Maintenance; engine, transmission, and body adjustments; wheel alignment, balancing or rotation; wiper blade inserts; engine drive belts; spark plugs; filters; fuses; all batteries; all hoses and clamps (except air conditioning and power steering); oils, lubricants, fluids, refrigerants and coolants (except as required in the course of a covered repair); brake pads and rotors; brake shoes and drums; manual transmission clutch assemblies; suspension dampers (shock absorbers/strut elements); exhaust systems; tires.

Wear and Tear
All wear and tear items as defined in The Certified Pre-Owned BMW Protection Plan Consumer Information Statement (including all suspension parts and components).

Body and Interior
Paint; glass; headlamps; bulbs (except instrumentation); mirrors; lenses; body and chassis; body seals and gaskets; interior and exterior trim, moldings, and fasteners; upholstery, headliner, carpeting, floor and trunk mats; convertible top (all components except electronics); air or water leaks; wind or body noises; wheels; damage due to rust, corrosion, or contamination, except as covered by the BMW New Vehicle Rust and Corrosion Perforation Warranty.

Accessories
Radio/cassette player, telephone, navigation system, CD changer, or any components of those systems; non-original equipment parts, components or accessories.

Is the CPO really worth anything? Can you guys post examples of repairs that you encounter on 545 and were covered under CPO warranty?

Also, what about software updates, are those free?

mleerob
05-07-2010, 02:09 PM
I don't see the need to pay extra cash for a CPO that is well below 50K miles.
If you have servie records, etc.

Same coverage as a non CPO car.
Not knocking CPO, but other well maintained cars can be just as good, and have the same warranty as a non CPO car.

Unless I'm missing something.
JMO.

grateful1
05-07-2010, 02:19 PM
I'm just interested really what is covered by CPO and what is not. It doesn't seem that a lot is covered based on my reading on the BMW site.
They say this is covered:
# Engine
# Automatic/Manual Transmission
# Front Suspension
# Rear Suspension
# Steering
# Brakes
# ABS Brake System
# Electrical
# Air Conditioning/Heating System
# Cooling System
# Interior/Exterior
# Fuel System
# Final Drive Assembly, Propeller Shaft

And this is not covered:

Upkeep Items
Maintenance; engine, transmission, and body adjustments; wheel alignment, balancing or rotation; wiper blade inserts; engine drive belts; spark plugs; filters; fuses; all batteries; all hoses and clamps (except air conditioning and power steering); oils, lubricants, fluids, refrigerants and coolants (except as required in the course of a covered repair); brake pads and rotors; brake shoes and drums; manual transmission clutch assemblies; suspension dampers (shock absorbers/strut elements); exhaust systems; tires.

Wear and Tear
All wear and tear items as defined in The Certified Pre-Owned BMW Protection Plan Consumer Information Statement (including all suspension parts and components).

Body and Interior
Paint; glass; headlamps; bulbs (except instrumentation); mirrors; lenses; body and chassis; body seals and gaskets; interior and exterior trim, moldings, and fasteners; upholstery, headliner, carpeting, floor and trunk mats; convertible top (all components except electronics); air or water leaks; wind or body noises; wheels; damage due to rust, corrosion, or contamination, except as covered by the BMW New Vehicle Rust and Corrosion Perforation Warranty.

Accessories
Radio/cassette player, telephone, navigation system, CD changer, or any components of those systems; non-original equipment parts, components or accessories.

Is the CPO really worth anything? Can you guys post examples of repairs that you encounter on 545 and were covered under CPO warranty?

Also, what about software updates, are those free?

The CPO really just ensures that a list of really important functions and operations of the car are in tip top condition. The "upkeep" or maintenance verbiage is a little confusing as it makes you think that none of these item are covered. The point of a CPOd vehicle is that in theory all major functions and operations of the car are supposed to be in very good working condition, almost to the point that it is new. Don't mean to point out the obvious.

You effectively don't need to worry about the maintenance item clause in the CPO if you buy a car that is less then 4 years old as you will still have the factory maintenance warranty and many of the major maintenance items on the not covered CPO list such as rotors, pads, fluids, filters, etc. are covered under the factory warranty.

I for one bought a CPOd car and made it a conscious effort to buy a CPO vs. non-CPO car. I wanted the peace of mind that I was buying a car that had everything in seamingly a brand new car sense. I got brand new tires, brand new rims and had a 10 inch long scratch on the passenger side rocker panel that was sent to a body shop to be sanded and repainted. In addition I'm sure they went through there list of CPO qualifications and adjusted any items that needed to be adjusted.

JerseyGeorge
05-07-2010, 06:44 PM
I don't see the need to pay extra cash for a CPO that is well below 50K miles.
If you have servie records, etc.

Same coverage as a non CPO car.
Not knocking CPO, but other well maintained cars can be just as good, and have the same warranty as a non CPO car.

Unless I'm missing something.
JMO.

How does a non-CPO have the same warranty as a CPO?:confused: CPO extends coverage 2 more years or 100K. Non-CPO is done at 4/50.

skylolow
05-07-2010, 07:02 PM
CPO warranty is actually pretty complete and usually no BS when you need to use it. I've had an SMG pump replaced and a water pump. Both items walked out paying $50 and had a free loaner and free tow.

Really the CPO just doesn't cover the little things and most warranties of any kind don't except when the car is under the org. factory warranty. Also remember 90% of the exclusions are things that nobody should expect to be covered (ie: fuses, light bulbs, etc.).

grateful1
05-07-2010, 09:10 PM
CPO extends coverage 2 more years or 100K. Non-CPO is done at 4/50.

I can't believe I left out the obvious....

OKC
05-07-2010, 11:18 PM
I read this forum pretty much daily. I have NEVER seen a post where someone complained that a dealership did not cover something under CPO.

Remember dealers are individual businesses and the CPO $ comes from BMW. So in other words the dealership can get the repairs done, get paid by BMW and MAKE THE CUSTOMER HAPPY. They have incentive to make things covered even if it might be iffy.

jboucher
05-08-2010, 09:33 AM
check out the price of a replacement transmission....CPO is worth it!

cac3a
05-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Does CPO cover alternator replacement?

mleerob
05-11-2010, 10:25 AM
How does a non-CPO have the same warranty as a CPO?:confused: CPO extends coverage 2 more years or 100K. Non-CPO is done at 4/50.

A non COP car owner can purchase the extended 100K coverage, before the car exceeds 50K miles.

jeffbtx
05-11-2010, 10:40 AM
A non COP car owner can purchase the extended 100K coverage, before the car exceeds 50K miles.

Your're confusing warranty and maintenance. CPO is certified pre-owned warranty only offered by BMW on used cars they sell. For example, my used E60 is still under factory warranty, if I wanted to extend the warranty for longer and for more miles I would have to find a third party to write the warranty, BMW will not. BMW would sell me the extended maintenace though. Here's what BMW says:

For even greater protection, we offer the optional BMW Maintenance Program Upgrade.
**If your vehicle is eligible, you may be able to purchase an upgrade, which provides your vehicle with 2 years/50,000 miles additional maintenance coverage. When purchased, this upgrade extends your total maintenance coverage period up to 6 years/100,000 miles. This upgrade option also extends the standard 4 years/unlimited mileage BMW Roadside Assistance Program benefit period by an additional 2 years/unlimited mileage for a total of 6 years/unlimited mileage.

mleerob
05-11-2010, 10:46 AM
But not a BMW warranty. CPO is certified pre-owned only offered by BMW used cars they sell. For example, my used E60 is still under factory warranty, if I wanted to extend the warranty for longer and for more miles I would have to find a third party to write the warranty, BMW will not. BMW would sell me the extended maintenace though. Here's what BMW says:

For even greater protection, we offer the optional BMW Maintenance Program Upgrade.
**If your vehicle is eligible, you may be able to purchase an upgrade, which provides your vehicle with 2 years/50,000 miles additional maintenance coverage. When purchased, this upgrade extends your total maintenance coverage period up to 6 years/100,000 miles. This upgrade option also extends the standard 4 years/unlimited mileage BMW Roadside Assistance Program benefit period by an additional 2 years/unlimited mileage for a total of 6 years/unlimited mileage.


If car is eligible, purchase Upgrade, or purchase from 3rd party.
Agree.
I took my non CPO car to a BMW dealer to insure it qualified.

jeffbtx
05-11-2010, 10:52 AM
If car is eligible, purchase Upgrade, or purchase from 3rd party.
Agree.
I took my non CPO car to a BMW dealer to insure it qualified.But it's a maintenance program extension you're buying, not a warranty extension - big difference. You won't be able to purchase a BMW maintenance program extension from a 3rd party.

mleerob
05-11-2010, 10:56 AM
But it's a maintenance program extension you're buying, not a warranty extension - big difference. You won't be able to purchase a BMW maintenance program extension from a 3rd party.


Correct. I don't want to pay for maintenance coverage.
It's similar to having a zero deductable.
I prefer to pay for maintenance direct to the provider.
Just the way I did it. I knew the car,and the previous care and maintenance.
Not for everyone.

JerseyGeorge
05-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Correct. I don't want to pay for maintenance coverage.
It's similar to having a zero deductable.
I prefer to pay for maintenance direct to the provider.
Just the way I did it. I knew the car,and the previous care and maintenance.
Not for everyone.

OK....I'm confused:dunno: Did you purchase a third party warranty? Or did you purchase extended maintenance?

You originally stated you saw no need to pay extra for a CPO but you paid for extended warranty.....what's the difference? Purchasing the warranty on your part is a smart choice IMO but I don't understand your position on CPO'd cars.

cac3a
05-12-2010, 05:39 AM
I'm little confused too. I thought CPO is through BMWNA. Don't delears get reimbursed by BMWNA for any work they do on CPO'd car?

slacker1201
05-12-2010, 06:42 PM
CPO is only through BMW.:thumbup:

WJGreer
05-13-2010, 11:30 AM
I absolutely see value in the CPO program. Looking at your list:

They say this is covered:
# Engine
# Automatic/Manual Transmission
# Front Suspension
# Rear Suspension
# Steering
# Brakes
# ABS Brake System
# Electrical
# Air Conditioning/Heating System
# Cooling System
# Interior/Exterior
# Fuel System
# Final Drive Assembly, Propeller Shaft

And this is not covered:

Upkeep Items
...

Wear and Tear
...

Body and Interior
...

Accessories
...

Also, what about software updates, are those free?

I observe that, for a car with between 50K and 100K miles - the second half of its useful life for normal intentions - things that aren't coverered are the wear and tear items and the things that might go wrong but not cost terribly much to fix when they do. The things that are covered are those that are unlikely to break in comparison but that create catastrophic repair bills when they do.

Edit - case in point (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455012).

It's a little like replacing a robust PPO insurance plan with a much less expensive major medical plan - you'll have to take care of the hangnail yourself, but if you break a leg you're well protected. In my view, this makes owning a CPO BMW a totally compelling choice - especially when you buy one that is about a year old with low mileage to begin with, so it's essentially a new car with a much better warranty that costs less. What's not to like?

Also, what about software updates, are those free?Not in my experience. I just had my transmission updated, and it cost about $130.

Wihelm G
06-23-2010, 03:43 PM
CPO is very good in concept, but in my experience there have been breakdowns in the implementation. Some of several more examples:
1. The original checklist is an easily readable multi-color form. The one I was shown at the time I picked up the car was a bad copy, barely legible. Looks like it had been faxed through a bad fax machine, then photocopied on a poorly maintained cheap home copy machine. No excuse for this. CPO is a good concept, so it should pay to make a good impression by clearly showing the extent of the inspection and repair process. On the other hand, if there's something to hide . . . I was ultimately provided with a photocopy of the crappy copy I had been shown. Had I known better, I would have requested the original or, if they insisted on keeping it, a scanned color copy.
2. The CPO checklist is only as good as the person or persons who fill it out. In additional to almost illegible handwriting (not helped by the pour quality copy), there were several obvious errors. In my case, where the checklist says service is due on the micofilter in "9.2011" miles (figured out this was a date, not the mileage. Similarly, the checklist states the brake fluid is due in "9,2010" months. Another item shows engine oil service is due in "1491 date/miles". I thought if this means service was due 1419 miles from the miles on the car when it was inspected (ii.e., not miles from when the car was actually delivered), I only had about 1300 miles from when I picked up the car to have to bring it back for an oil change? The CA agreed it should just be changed before it was delivered (I had to wait five days for my bank check to clear, because this particular dealership's customer unfriendly policy), if that's what the numbers meant, so I would not have to return a few weeks later for an oil change. To this day I don't know if they did change the oil-- they certainly never gave me anything in writing to that effect, nor was it ever mentioned again (nor was the promised cargo mat on backorder ever mentioned again, for that matter). Then there is the navi-- the checklist says it was tested and delivered with a working CD or DVD. Except there is no navi. These are relatively small things, but they are also things that are obviously mistakes or oversights. Who knows what other things were not actually checked or sloppily checked. Who knows how long the tech actually spent going through this checklist. It just demonstrates poor quality control in, ironically, checking the something where good quality control is the actual purpose.
3. No one every provided me with a copy of the BMW standards for the CPO. That would have been informative. For example, I noticed a few weeks later lots of little pits in the windshield (and in one case one not so little pit that had been "repaired"). I was told the BMW standards have a fairly high tolerance for lots of pits and scratches. For example, scratches up to 2 inches are acceptable, unless in the driver's direct line of sight (whatever area that encompasses).
4. The date and miles of the inspection could be months and hundreds of miles before the actual delivery of the CPO'd car. This is common where the car is used as demo or loaner after inspection but before delivery. In my case, I discovered one of the rocker panels was loose. If you're not looking for it, it's not obvious. It could easily slide by a sloppy inspection. I didn't notice it until several weeks after I had the car, when I washed it myself for the first time. First, I felt it give when I wiped over it. Then I actually noticed it was pushed out a bit. Months later, I felt underneath it and it feels like it may have been scraped on something. I still haven't looked to see if there's a scrape there. It could have missed the original inspection, but my guess is it happened in the months after the car was inspected and before it was delivered.
There's actually some more, but I have to get back to my day job. Bottomline, BMW has a good concept but the execution is sketchy. And while BMW expressly states a CPO'd car is not intended to be like new, it sure looks almost new for the most part and, to the extent the checklist can be trusted, it should actually be as close to a new car as reasonably possible and something well worth having.

JerseyGeorge
06-23-2010, 11:00 PM
CPO is very good in concept, but in my experience there have been breakdowns in the implementation. Some of several more examples:
1. The original checklist is an easily readable multi-color form. The one I was shown at the time I picked up the car was a bad copy, barely legible. Looks like it had been faxed through a bad fax machine, then photocopied on a poorly maintained cheap home copy machine. No excuse for this. CPO is a good concept, so it should pay to make a good impression by clearly showing the extent of the inspection and repair process. On the other hand, if there's something to hide . . . I was ultimately provided with a photocopy of the crappy copy I had been shown. Had I known better, I would have requested the original or, if they insisted on keeping it, a scanned color copy.
2. The CPO checklist is only as good as the person or persons who fill it out. In additional to almost illegible handwriting (not helped by the pour quality copy), there were several obvious errors. In my case, where the checklist says service is due on the micofilter in "9.2011" miles (figured out this was a date, not the mileage. Similarly, the checklist states the brake fluid is due in "9,2010" months. Another item shows brake service is due in "1491 date/miles". I thought if this means service was due 1419 miles from the miles on the car when it was inspected (ii.e., not miles from when the car was actually delivered), I only had about 1300 miles from when I picked up the car to have to bring it back for an oil change? The CA agreed it should just be changed before it was delivered (I had to wait five days for my bank check to clear, because this particular dealership's customer unfriendly policy), if that's what the numbers meant, so I would not have to return a few weeks later for an oil change. To this day I don't know if they did change the oil-- they certainly never gave me anything in writing to that effect, nor was it ever mentioned again (nor was the promised cargo mat on backorder ever mentioned again, for that matter). Then there is the navi-- the checklist says it was tested and delivered with a working CD or DVD. Except there is no navi. These are relatively small things, but there also they are things that are obviously mistakes or oversights. Who knows what other things were not actually checked or sloppily checked. Who knows how long the tech actually spent going through this checklist. It just demonstrates poor quality control in, ironically, checking the something where good quality control is the actual purpose.
3. No one every provided me with a copy of the BMW standards for the CPO. That would have been informative. For example, I noticed a few weeks later lots of little pits in the windshield (and in one case one not so little pit that had been "repaired"). I was told the BMW standards have a fairly high tolerance for lots of pits and scratches. For example, scratches up to 2 inches are acceptable, unless in the driver's direct line of sight (whatever area that encompasses).
4. The date and miles of the inspection could be months and hundreds of miles before the actual delivery of the CPO'd car. This is common where the car is used as demo or loaner after inspection but before delivery. In my case, I discovered one of the rocker panels was loose. If you're not looking for it, it's not obvious. It could easily slide by a sloppy inspection. I didn't notice it until several weeks after I had the car, when I washed it myself for the first time. First, I felt it give when I wiped over it. Then I actually noticed it was pushed out a bit. Months later, I felt underneath it and it feels like it may have been scraped on something. I still haven't looked to see if there's a scrape there. It could have missed the original inspection, but my guess is it happened in the months after the car was inspected and before it was delivered.
There's actually some more, but I have to get back to my day job. Bottomline, BMW has a good concept but the execution is sketchy. And while BMW expressly states a CPO'd car is not intended to be like new, it sure looks almost new for the most part and, to the extent the checklist can be trusted, it should actually be as close to a new car as reasonably possible and something well worth having.

Unfortunately you learned a valuable lesson......there are bad dealers out there who would screw their mothers over for a dime! NEVER trust them and always inspect the car thoroughly before purchase. Get original paperwork and get an explanation of the warranty before signing and if they can't provide it....RUN!!!

Wihelm G
06-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Unfortunately you learned a valuable lesson......there are bad dealers out there who would screw their mothers over for a dime! NEVER trust them and always inspect the car thoroughly before purchase. Get original paperwork and get an explanation of the warranty before signing and if they can't provide it....RUN!!!

Actually, in this case I have never been under the impression this particular dealership is "bad" or out to screw me (or others). It does have a good reputation generally and I was a repeat buyer here for that reason. I think they they were just being sloppy, one of those "why is there never enough time to do it right but always enough time to do it over" moments.

This was particularly evident in the checklist stating all applicable technical service bulletin items were addressed. I'm assuming this is what "open campaigns" on the CPO checklist means, but I could be wrong. The same day the car was delivered there was a problem with the door locks that had been the subject of a service bulletin, It took 150 miles of trips to and from the dealership to fix what should have been caught during the CPO inspection). Also, I later found a problem with the floor mats curlng up was the subject of a service bulletin and they should have been replaced before delivery, had the CPO checklist been completed accurately and inspection standards been followed. I don't make it a point to have to read service bulletins (nor do I ever want to have to), so I really don't know what else was missed. Or even whether this is something required in the CPO process.

I agree, I should have inspected the car thoroughly. This is just a good practice. In this instance I did not inspect it all. The CA almost had to insist that I spend one minute to at least look at it (I bought it sight unseen, based on an online ad and the dealer's rep). Even the most cursory inspection would have revealed the rotor hubs on every wheel had so much rust they looked almost fuzzy. My fault for not looking at it, dealer's fault for letting it get off the lot in this condition. A draw. To some extent I relied on the fact that it was advertised as a CPO and held out by a reputable dealer as having undergone a thorough inspection. But I also was in a hurry to get out of there. My bad.

Again, I don't feel the dealer was dishonest or out to take advantage or make a quick buck, or even deliberately cutting corners. Maybe just sloppy, not paying enough attention to just how well the CPO program is supposed to work in building up customer confidence in buying a used car, only to be undermined by poor implementation. This is something BMW as a company should address with the dealer and maybe get on the same page. Or maybe they don't really care as long as one car gets sold to one customer who will have a skeptical view of the CPO program in practice and have a story to tell all his buddies over cigars and cognac.

sunburst1
06-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Great discussion and points made. :)

The dealer didn't show mw the CPO inspection sheet , but I didn't ask to see it.

I did ask , if the car had any issues or previous recurring problems. The car was leased and serviced by the same dealer that sold me the car. It was/is in amazing overall condition for having almost 50K miles for an '07. The sales person was up front about the brakes being expensive and showed me the fronts had 36K left and the rear 16K. The service indicator is due 8K from now, as things stand. With a free oil change, I'm hoping service will be inexpensive early next year. ;)

No issues or problems to report. I'm very happy with my choice and car. Hard to believe a car with this many miles drives like its almost brand new, IMO. The CPO runs through March 2013 , I was also thinking about buying the extended maintenance , but the cost of 2200+ is kinda pricy. Should have bought it when financing the car. BMW did give me 1.9% for 48 months which I was thrilled about. :thumbup:

JerseyGeorge
06-24-2010, 10:09 PM
@Wilhelm

Great post and a very honest answers on your experiences with BMW CPO. :thumbup:

I definitely agree that sometimes even a good dealers get sloppy and some problems slip through. And one shouldn't need to read service bulletins before or even after purchase!