M3 engine failures (S54)

[JST]

Just ran across this post at the Org; I'm sure many of you have seen it:

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46/forum.php?postid=521991&page=1

Scary stuff. It's not clear how common these problems really are, but it certainly doesn't sound like an isolated incident.

BTW, WTF is the deal with over-revs and purported over-revs with M3s? There is the well known problem with early S52 engines, and now the same phenomenon is being used as a scapegoat for S54 failures. But I've never heard of this being a common problem with really any other car. What gives?

[Alex Baumann]

I think the dealer can read the DIS and say what happened exactly. They can read everything, rev history, speed history etc.

I've heard a similar case here at my dealer. They towed a brand new M3 (a few hundred miles on it) to the dealer after an engine blow up. After reading the DIS, they have found out that the car has been driven like a Formula 1 car in the 'break in' period, like extreme high revs without running the engine warm etc.

End of the story, BMW refused to cover it under warranty. And evidence was the DIS print-out.

[TD]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann
I think the dealer can read the DIS and say what happened exactly. They can read everything, rev history, speed history etc.

I've heard a similar case here at my dealer. They towed a brand new M3 (a few hundred miles on it) to the dealer after an engine blow up. After reading the DIS, they have found out that the car has been driven like a Formula 1 car in the 'break in' period, like extreme high revs without running the engine warm etc.

End of the story, BMW refused to cover it under warranty. And evidence was the DIS print-out.

I think the question is, is it the car or does the car attract idiot drivers?

I, too, have heard of the computer records beingused against an overrevving owner. But, as JST was asking, why don't you ever hear about this with other cars? Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs.

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by TD


I think the question is, is it the car or does the car attract idiot drivers?

I, too, have heard of the computer records beingused against an overrevving owner. But, as JST was asking, why don't you ever hear about this with other cars? Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs.

Did the E36 M3s have the same problems ?

[TD]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann


Did the E36 M3s have the same problems ?

Yes.

I heard of M3 overrevs longs before there was an E46 M3.

[Mr. The Edge]

Originally posted by TD


I think the question is, is it the car or does the car attract idiot drivers?

I, too, have heard of the computer records beingused against an overrevving owner. But, as JST was asking, why don't you ever hear about this with other cars? Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs.

But do we know/hear as much about other cars as we do about BMW's? It may just be from proximity to the overload of information.

Although I tend to agree that the M3 tends to attract some pretty immature drivers, imo. All you have to do is read the M3 board at the org for a week. People are constantly saying, "Finally got my 1200 mile service done. Time to let this b*tch rev to 8,000!"

Such idiotic thinking. They go 1200 miles obeying the specified break-in up to 1200 miles, but then TOTALLY ignore the rest of the break-in guidelines that say you shoud GRADUALLY increase max speed and rpms all the way up to 3200 miles.

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by atyclb
People are constantly saying, "Finally got my 1200 mile service done. Time to let this b*tch rev to 8,000!"
Just read a few posts over there. Yeah, overreving seems to be a common disease. And most of them are trying to find out the limits of each gear :)

Keep up the good work guyz !

[nate]

Originally posted by TD

Two generations of M3s have now had this issues but I've never heard of any other make/model suffering widepread overrevs.

The new Acura RSX has had many cases of engines blowing from overrevs...

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by nate328Ci
The new Acura RSX has had many cases of engines blowing from overrevs...

Audi S4/RS4s having problems too (tranny, engine, valve etc etc) -lurked a bit on the Audi Forum.

So, it seems to me that it's *mostly* the driver. But I think, it wouldn't be wrong to say that those engines are a bit sensible too. I mean, getting 343 HP out of 3.3 L without any modification doesn't look to me like an easy job.

I'm not technical savvy like some of you here. You guys may have a better explanation for it.

[nate]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann


Audi S4/RS4s having problems too (tranny, engine, valve etc etc) -lurked a bit on the Audi Forum.

So, it seems to me that it's *mostly* the driver. But I think, it wouldn't be wrong to say that those engines are a bit sensible too. I mean, getting 343 HP out of 3.3 L without any modification doesn't look to me like an easy job.

I'm not technical savvy like some of you here. You guys may have a better explanation for it.

I think that higher revving engines are easier to overrev :dunno:

[Alex Baumann]

It's getting more interesting. I've browsed one of the biggest german BMW board. It seems that the S54 engines have some serious problems indeed.

Someone has posted a blown-up pic :

http://www.korman.com/images/phoss50.jpg

It seems to be that the high-revving M engines has reached its limit.

So, since more power with 6 cylinder on the next M3 doesn't make sense, I'm guessing that the next M3 will get an V8 engine.

[blackdawg]

think about the room for error in engineering build tolerances in an engine which needs to rev to 8000rpms (on a mass production scale!) versus one which only needs to rev to 7200rpms.

a small block v8 (which most likely weighs less as an all aluminum engine than the iron block'd S54) makes more sense.

ps. you can overrev any manual transmission car. it's not just M3s. it's that people don't all drive m3s and experience the red rage of street racing and/or track rage.

[Randy Forbes]

The S-54 engine when used in the 01-02 M Rdstr or Coupe is redlined (or limited) to 7400 rpm.
I can live with "only" 315 hp if it means the engine will stay together!
BTW, it seems too, that a lot of these overrevs occur when downshifting at too high of a road speed for the gear chosen.
My dealer had an E-46 M3 in for "warranty" that was subjected to such abuse by its owner and the pissing match over the coverage began...
The owner was not happy with the outcome.

[blackdawg]

....is clearly driver error and should never be covered by BMW NA or any of its dealers.

yeah, you can fault the tranny bushings for being soft and the entire tunnel housing flexing under speed, but in the end, people need to shift more slowly particularly at WOT.

i got a firsthand look at an e36m3 motor which had overrev'd. wow. talk about scoring the pistons. all 6 had gouges from valves biting into them. and the valves....yikes. bent. 12 of 'em.

head needed work, new valves needed installing, and pistons, too. out of pocket $2500-3000.

[dakarm]

Originally posted by blackdawg
....is clearly driver error and should never be covered by BMW NA or any of its dealers.

yeah, you can fault the tranny bushings for being soft and the entire tunnel housing flexing under speed, but in the end, people need to shift more slowly particularly at WOT.

i got a firsthand look at an e36m3 motor which had overrev'd. wow. talk about scoring the pistons. all 6 had gouges from valves biting into them. and the valves....yikes. bent. 12 of 'em.

head needed work, new valves needed installing, and pistons, too. out of pocket $2500-3000.

I agree this has nothing to do with the engine itself. If you miss a shift can "cause" the engine to over rev how can you blame the engine? You over reved the engine by missing the shift from say 5th and giong into 2nd instead of 4th.

[JST]

Originally posted by dakarm


I agree this has nothing to do with the engine itself. If you miss a shift can "cause" the engine to over rev how can you blame the engine? You over reved the engine by missing the shift from say 5th and giong into 2nd instead of 4th.

Yes, but can driver error be exacerbated by vehicle design? If, e.g., BMW built a transmission with a shift pattern:

R 1 3 2

4 5

It would be easy to say that the weird, non-standard shift pattern contributed to driver error. Obviously, there's nothing that clearly different about M3s, but they do seem to have a higher overrev problem than, say, SHO Tauri or Mustangs, just to name two cars that probably attract a similarly enthusiastic driver.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the design of the tranny, but it's something to think about.

[dakarm]

Originally posted by JST


Yes, but can driver error be exacerbated by vehicle design? If, e.g., BMW built a transmission with a shift pattern:

R 1 3 2

4 5

It would be easy to say that the weird, non-standard shift pattern contributed to driver error. Obviously, there's nothing that clearly different about M3s, but they do seem to have a higher overrev problem than, say, SHO Tauri or Mustangs, just to name two cars that probably attract a similarly enthusiastic driver.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the design of the tranny, but it's something to think about.

yes but the original post made it sound like it was the fault of the engine. I was just pointing that out. i'm very away of the problem with the tranny mounts. m coupe has the same problem, i near did the same thing myself but was lucky and the hit the clutch before the rpm went over 6500.

[Pinecone]

Since I have not yet driven an E46 M3, and when I pick up mine, it it is SMG, I can't say about it. But the E36 M3 has a problem that the tranny/engine shifts under hard acceleration. ANd this makes the shift pattern move in relation to the driver.

So when you do the 2nd to 3rd upshift, 3rd is in a different place than you are used to. It could cause you to "upshift" to 1st, with seriously not good results.

The picture posted from Germany looks like classic detonation. Melted pistons are a common sign of this. There can be a problem with high performance engines running at higher speeds for long periods of time (like autobahn) need more MON (Motor Octane Number) fuel. The pump number is an average of MON and RON, and under most use the actual MON and RON don't matter, just the average. EXCEPT in those conditions I just mentioned. SO this one could be the result of questionable fuel and a long autobahn run.

An overrev normally causes bent valves (rods stretch under the higher loads and the pistons hit the valves).

The thing is there are reports of several engines eating rod bearings. This could be overrev, or could be lubrication failure. No count of which years, production dates, or even the oil used. But it is interesting that BMW changed the oil from 5W-30 to a special 10W-60. And it is known that not all dealers are using the right oil.

Or it could be a problem with the engines. Form the reports BMW is sending the blown engines, those without DIS overrev indications, back to Germany for analysis.

[blackdawg]

if i remember correctly, the S54 is an undersquare engine.

it's freaking amazing that they have mass produced an undersquare engine with an 8000rpm redline.

granted, there seem to be quite a bit of problems with OEM parts for the engine such as the rods, though.

[DrBimmer]

This is not an M3 issue....

I have seen several cars at the dealer with blown engines over the past few months, ranging from Z3s to a 325xit to E36 M3s. My dealer has yet to see an E46 M3..... but that is not to say that it isn't happening.

[5 Rakete]

Last October or so BMW changed the clearances on the connecting rod bearing shells for the S54 motors. There is a service bulletin regarding rod and bearing replacement. They went from .03mm to .04mm. Seems like lubrication was an issue. This is why I ordered my 2002 M Coupe in February and didn't even bother to find one on a dealer lot. I wanted a "new" engine if possible.

[JPinTO]

Here's the fun post listing 10 blown engine accounts.

http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=351947

I don't believe that everyone is overreving their engine. Sure there are a few spoiled IcyStunta boys driving M3's like crap, but there are way more people who are enthusiasts and treat their cars well.

The scary part is the denial of warranty. That gives BMW license to do whatever they please with respect to honoring warranty. If they even suspect that you did something fishy then who knows what they will say and do to get out of fixing a problem that may be a design problem.

I guess these problems are probably teething pains for the first couple of model years. Sucks for the owners though.

[Mr. The Edge]

Originally posted by JPinTO

The scary part is the denial of warranty. That gives BMW license to do whatever they please with respect to honoring warranty. If they even suspect that you did something fishy then who knows what they will say and do to get out of fixing a problem that may be a design problem.

They can't deny the warranty without firm evidence of an overrev, which is easily obtainable through the car's ECU.

[alee]

Originally posted by atyclb
They can't deny the warranty without firm evidence of an overrev, which is easily obtainable through the car's ECU.
I don't think there's any doubt whether an overrev happened, but I would say what happened to lead to that overrev is what determines whether the claim honored.

Was it a missed shift (5-2) caused by carelessness at high speeds in racing conditions, or was it the shift pattern moving on the driver causing the 5-2 overrev?

[porkyzilla]

isnt that what they have the rev limiter for to prevent that?

[JPinTO]

Originally posted by porkyzilla
isnt that what they have the rev limiter for to prevent that?

Rev Limiter will not work when down shifting to too low of a gear.

[ayn]

Originally posted by Pinecone
Since I have not yet driven an E46 M3, and when I pick up mine, it it is SMG, I can't say about it. But the E36 M3 has a problem that the tranny/engine shifts under hard acceleration. ANd this makes the shift pattern move in relation to the driver.

So when you do the 2nd to 3rd upshift, 3rd is in a different place than you are used to. It could cause you to "upshift" to 1st, with seriously not good results.


yeah, I've heard about this problem with the E36 a lot. I know a guy who did a money-shift. I heard a tranny mount helps a lot with this.

--Andrew

[ayn]

Originally posted by porkyzilla
isnt that what they have the rev limiter for to prevent that?

the limiter doesn't work when u want to upshift but mistakenly downshifted, because your wheels are driving your tranny.

--Andrew

[Law]

This happened to me. BMW claimed some casting material was left over from production and covered it completly with a new motor.

[JST]

Here's an update from the E46 M3 board on the Org:

http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=407881&page=1

[WAM]

The rev limiter is effective when you are going up the gearbox. Everytime you hit the limiter, you shift up to the next gear.

However, if you are in 5th gear and near the redline, shifting into a lower gear will cause the engine to exceed the redline.

The interesting thing is that it is happening to SMG cars, which according to theory, prevent over-revving by delaying downshifts until a safe engine speed. :yikes:

[JPinTO]

Those stories are a nightmare! :yikes: :yikes:

It really seems like BMW needs to back that rev-limit down way past 8000. If these things are popping @8500, then move it down! And they need to move the hp peak lower too, if the engine can't handle it.

- JP

[FASTER3]

I wonder why this isn't happening with S2000s as they rev to 8900. Maybe those drivers are more mature? ;););)

[JPinTO]

Originally posted by FASTER3
I wonder why this isn't happening with S2000s as they rev to 8900. Maybe those drivers are more mature? ;););)

That's an issue many have brought up... and the reason many are pointing to a design problem.

[dakarm]

Originally posted by FASTER3
I wonder why this isn't happening with S2000s as they rev to 8900. Maybe those drivers are more mature? ;););)


smaller pistons, lower mass? just a guess.

I doubt the S2000 drivers more mature.

I would say about the same.

[ggman]

I guess when you buy your car, the dealer thinks he is covered in his liability when he tells you to " READ YOUR WARRANTY BOOK AND DRIVERS GUIDE ".:rolleyes:
If it had not been for ROAD & TRACK, and CAR & DRIVER I would not know a lot about the workings of my M:)
When I picked up my M the detail guy was sitll cleaning it up. He asked me if I wanted to leave the little window stickers on that were in the upper lefthand corner of the wind screen. Something told me to say "YES". I figured that they where only tire guide info, or seatbelt and airbag precautions. at about 900 miles I just happened to take a closer look at them and found out that one of them was the break-in guide. Well up to that point I was driving the car like it was a formula 1 car, especialy with the SMG.
:eeps:

I just hope I didnt do anything too stupid that was loged by the computer. I also hope the down shift program over rev limiter was working.( SMG cars are supposed to be idiot or goof proof when it comes to rev limits and stuff).
:angel:
P.S. Why did the service rep at Long beach BMW try to sell me a DIHAN program up-grade that removed the rev limiter and speed limiter:mad:

[FASTER3]

Originally posted by ggman
P.S. Why did the service rep at Long beach BMW try to sell me a DIHAN program up-grade that removed the rev limiter and speed limiter:mad:

I'm sure (s)he would have given you the Dinan M Manual with full break-in info. Oh wait, you only get that after you buy enough parts to be eligible for that super cool "DINAN" badge. ;)

[FASTER3]

Originally posted by dakarm

I doubt the S2000 drivers more mature.

I would say about the same.

Indeed. I'd love for someone to plot a graph proving that well-known correlation between driver age (or experience) with catastrophic failures like this one. Now THAT would be interesting. ;)

[ggman]

OK, I can see spending the money but will the "DINAN" badge make my M go faster?? :D

[FASTER3]

Originally posted by ggman
OK, I can see spending the money but will the "DINAN" badge make my M go faster?? :D

They say Schumacher's red car alerts others to get out of the way, and thusly improves his lap times...so you just never know. Imagine what he could do with a red car AND a Dinan badge!!! ;););)

[ggman]

THATS IT THEN! I gotta paint my car red AND get the DINAN badge:yikes:

Just wait till I tell the guys over at CEC:thumb:


By the way, I just got a call from one of my pals over at CEC and he told me that they are unvielling the new porsche turbo at their showroom on santa monica blvd in beverly hills today about 5pm. :thumb:

I shoulda saved my money :bawling:

[FASTER3]

Originally posted by ggman

I shoulda saved my money :bawling:

I imagine that for what they are charging for that Porsche Turbo, you could paint your M3 red, get the Dinan parts and all-important badge, turbo it by the guys at EvoSport, race and beat the Porsche (with the CEC guys in your back seat), then go buy a villa in the South of France, and STILL have enough left over to throw a big party to make fun of the sucker that ended buying that Porsche. :D

[ggman]

Ya know..... Thats why I love this site:cry:
It takes a real bimmhead to see thru all the bs and make life so simple and clear :thumb:

HEY! instead of buying the por. I can get the bimmer bicycle and do some hard flossing on the bikepath, and hell save a couple of bucks:bigpimp: ;)

[scottn2retro]

Hey ggman -

Check the Maintenance and Warranty Info booklet.

When I got my M Roadster (at Rusnak BMW in Westlake) the salesman (who owns a Porsche so knows sports cars) told just how I should break it in and I was reading the Maintenance and Warranty Info book (yes, I have no life) and it was all there just like the salesman said. (Good job by Ron Randall at Rusnak)

A knowledgable salesperson should have told you about the break in when the car was delivered to you.

I do know a guy with an S2000 that burned the clutch up after few thousand miles and got it replaced somehow on warranty. He said he followed the break-in guidelines, but he's in his twenties and I ain't buying it!

[ggman]

I guess what I am saying is that the sales people see the speedlines behind you like they see them behind your money,the faster you can cut the deal is as fast as they will get you out of the showroom and onto the street. Do you think they realy care if you blow up the motor or clutch or somthing. A real sales person just sees a person like that as good business for the service and parts dept, whether the warranty co.,bmw, or deep pockets pays.:dunno: :mad:

So go ahead, get that new M3,5,or roadster and drive it like a bat outta hell, we'll be seeing you soon:mad:

[JPinTO]

This isn't good!

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=3054

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?postid=19488

[RSKeisuke]

That looks less like a blown engine and more like a blown electrohydraulic control thing for smg.

[The HACK]

Originally posted by JPinTO
This isn't good!

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=3054

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachment.php?postid=19488

Wanna know a funny thing? My friend with the CB E46 M3 was leaking oil somewhere. At first I thought it was the oil filter, after we did the oil change I loosened the cap and re-tightened it. Last weekend we put in a new filter and new rubber seal and to no avail, it was still leaking oil badly (and this is the expensive stuff, $12 a quart).

Finally, today he took his car to the dealership and they discovered that the head gasket bolt wasn't properly torqued down to spec and was leaking oil out through the bolt. His engine used to look like this so my guess is that's not an isolated incident.

Definately will NOT be buying a used E46 M3 any time soon.

[JPinTO]

http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20246_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20247_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20248_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20249_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20250_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20251_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20252_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20253_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20255_std.jpg
http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20256_std.jpg

[Plaz]

Originally posted by JPinTO

http://www.cecilwalker.com/PhotoSite/NASA/050502/img_20256_std.jpg [/B]

:yikes: :eek: :tsk: :bawling: :mad: :dunno:

[JPinTO]

Originally posted by Plaz


:yikes: :eek: :tsk: :bawling: :mad: :dunno:

You said it! Do you really believe that they are all driver error??

[JPinTO]

Apparently not:

http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=434900&page=1

[DougDogs]

Originally posted by JPinTO
Apparently not:

http://forums.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=434900&page=1

I understand people being upset about engine, or any other failures. But what was this guy thinking about when he decided to post his story about his failure at a racetrack, plus include his name and VIN#:dunno: :dunno:

Maybe I'm way off base here, but if my motor, or some other major component, failed while I was racing my car, I don't think I would be advertizing all that personnel info:dunno: :dunno:

Or am I wrong in thinking that track failures aren't covered by BMW:dunno: :dunno:

[scottn2retro]

I'm seeing all the S54 engine postings and they seem to all be M3s.

Has anyone reported and S54 engine failures on M Coupes or M Roadsters?

[Mr. The Edge]

Originally posted by scottn2retro
I'm seeing all the S54 engine postings and they seem to all be M3s.

Has anyone reported and S54 engine failures on M Coupes or M Roadsters?

There's one in that survey.

People are guessing that it's because the redline on the coupes/roadsters is lower (7400?) than on the M3 (8000).

[scottn2retro]

Hmmm . . .

I would think M coupe guys that have done track events would be as aggressive as the M3 guys, although there would probably be less data points.

Maybe the 500 rpm lower limit on the Coupes and Roadsters is enough of a difference under max conditions.

If that's the case, maybe it is a design issue.

[chazzy]

I'm not sure if the one M Coupe that was reported is completely legitimate. The guy has posted on the M Coupe forum numerous times and has shown gross immaturity. That isn't to say that he's wrong about his assessment, but I wouldn't be surprised if his engine got a bit thrashed, either.

I've heard one story of an S54 M Roadster engine blowing in Canada with no further information. The "regulars" on the M Coupe/Roadster forum on Roadfly haven't heard anything reliable. If anyone hears anything, please let us know.

I'm watching the information regarding the S54s, but don't have a fear at all about my own.