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chiefwej
05-28-2010, 12:21 AM
Well, I decided that if I run a zero pressure cooling system, I may not have to do that next cooling system overhaul. No pressure, no exploding radiator.

So I ordered a case of Evans NPG+ waterless coolant. Not cheap at about $120, but if it saves an overhaul............... The case was 4 gallons. It took 12 liters (or about 2 3/4 gallons) to fill the system. That leaves over a gallon for top-ups, since you can't add water or any other kind of coolant with Evans.

I fully drained the system, radiator, lower hose, block drains, and ran the heater pump to get it out of there. I must have got it all because Bentley says it holds 12 liters and that is exactly what I got in it. So everything must have been out and there can't be any air trapped in there. After the NPG+ fill I changed the 2 bar cap for a 1.4 bar one.

With a boiling point of 375 degrees there should never be any pressure in the system now.

Mark@EAC
05-28-2010, 07:39 AM
keep us posted with your findings on this chief. As pricey as it is, might really be cheap insurance against a failed radiator or hose for us e39s.

cn90
05-28-2010, 07:44 AM
Thanks Chief!

It was discussed in bimmerforums 4 years ago:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=618224

Pappa Bear
05-28-2010, 07:45 AM
sounds awsome. much cheaper than 2, 3, 4 overhauls. even my zionsville develped a crack in it, bad weld.

ganesht
05-28-2010, 08:20 AM
sounds awsome. much cheaper than 2, 3, 4 overhauls. even my zionsville develped a crack in it, bad weld.

how long after you installed it did the crack form?

doru
05-28-2010, 09:11 AM
Chief, please update how the engine runs (a long term update would be awsome).

Concerning the Zions unit failing at the welds, it has been reported a few times.

BigCo540i
05-28-2010, 09:12 AM
So, let me get this straight; when this fluid heats up from say 90 degrees ambient to say 220 degrees operating temp, there is no increase in pressure? Just trying to understand the physics of it?

kentd98
05-28-2010, 09:32 AM
There is no need to pressurize the system to keep the coolant from boiling off.

Pappa Bear
05-28-2010, 09:36 AM
how long after you installed it did the crack form?

it was about 3 years old. PO put it in, major + when deciding to purchase it. then the leak on the expansion tank. Zionsville wouldnt replace it for me either. slapped some JB weld on it because its not like its an OEM system and the crack means the whole thing is gonna blow. everything else has been replaced twice. but the JB is holding for now, until i get someone to teach me how to tig.

edjack
05-28-2010, 10:21 AM
How can you say that this is a zero-pressure system, when you have a 1.4 bar pressure cap on it?

I can't see much advantage to lowering the pressure by 9 psi.

BigCo540i
05-28-2010, 10:35 AM
So, let me get this straight; when this fluid heats up from say 90 degrees ambient to say 220 degrees operating temp, there is no increase in pressure? Just trying to understand the physics of it?

As coolant gets hot, it expands. Since the cooling system is sealed, this expansion causes an increase in pressure in the cooling system, which is normal and part of the design. When coolant is under pressure, the temperature where the liquid begins to boil is considerably higher. This pressure, coupled with the higher boiling point of ethylene glycol, allows the coolant to safely reach temperatures in excess of 250 degrees.

The radiator pressure cap is a simple device that will maintain pressure in the cooling system up to a certain point. If the pressure builds up higher than the set pressure point, there is a spring loaded valve, calibrated to the correct Pounds per Square Inch (psi), to release the pressure.

tacoma330ci
05-28-2010, 10:42 AM
Hey Chief,

Whats the part number of the 1.4bar cap? sounds like a good way to go to protect the system...

As long as the evans coolant doesn't corrode the water jackets/pipes etc... would be a nice longterm fix to the PM of the cooling system...

ganesht
05-28-2010, 12:42 PM
As coolant gets hot, it expands. Since the cooling system is sealed, this expansion causes an increase in pressure in the cooling system, which is normal and part of the design. When coolant is under pressure, the temperature where the liquid begins to boil is considerably higher. This pressure, coupled with the higher boiling point of ethylene glycol, allows the coolant to safely reach temperatures in excess of 250 degrees.

The radiator pressure cap is a simple device that will maintain pressure in the cooling system up to a certain point. If the pressure builds up higher than the set pressure point, there is a spring loaded valve, calibrated to the correct Pounds per Square Inch (psi), to release the pressure.

but how is it possible that this stuff would be able to heat up w/o creating any pressure?

BigCo540i
05-28-2010, 12:54 PM
but how is it possible that this stuff would be able to heat up w/o creating any pressure?

That's my point, everyone is buying into this but no one can answer that question.

chiefwej
05-28-2010, 01:00 PM
I took the car for a ride on the freeway today, about 80 miles round trip, AC on, air temp in the 90's. When I got home I immediately opened the hood and opened the radiator cap. A very small psst sound, might have been 2 or 3 lb. pressure. This would be from liquid expansion. The real pressure in a radiator is built up from the liquid exceeding its boiling point. This pressure then raises the boil point of the liquid. It works just like a pressure cooker, and like a pressure cooker, if you pop the cap when its hot....disaster. The liquid in my radiator never gets even close to its boiling point of 375+ degrees, so no real pressure. If I wanted to eliminate that 2 or 3 lbs, I can cut the spring or drill a small hole in the cap, either will have no effect on the function of the system. In any event, I went from 30 psi to 2 or 3 psi in the system, which should be a good thing.

doru
05-28-2010, 01:29 PM
Hey Chief,

Whats the part number of the 1.4bar cap? sounds like a good way to go to protect the system...

As long as the evans coolant doesn't corrode the water jackets/pipes etc... would be a nice longterm fix to the PM of the cooling system...

For "normal" coolant, it's not (protect the system). Once the pressure increases past 1.4 bar (which you will have in a "normal" BMW), all your coolant will escape right there. You will have a "controlled" if you will, crack induced on top of your expansion tank.

Now, even if it corrodes, you won't have pressure in the system, which might allow you to patch up a pipe or a hose even with ducktape until you're home. Not so if it's high pressure.

but how is it possible that this stuff would be able to heat up w/o creating any pressure?

I believe the boiling point of that liquid is very very high. Much higher than the boiling point of the normal coolant

I took the car for a ride on the freeway today, about 80 miles round trip, AC on, air temp in the 90's. When I got home I immediately opened the hood and opened the radiator cap. A very small psst sound, might have been 2 or 3 lb. pressure. This would be from liquid expansion. The real pressure in a radiator is built up from the liquid exceeding its boiling point. This pressure then raises the boil point of the liquid. It works just like a pressure cooker, and like a pressure cooker, if you pop the cap when its hot....disaster. The liquid in my radiator never gets even close to its boiling point of 375+ degrees, so no real pressure. If I wanted to eliminate that 2 or 3 lbs, I can cut the spring or drill a small hole in the cap, either will have no effect on the function of the system. In any event, I went from 30 psi to 2 or 3 psi in the system, which should be a good thing.

I will have to read on this. What's the freezing point of this stuff? We have very frosty winters, but if this stuff can withstand -40C I might be game.

chiefwej
05-28-2010, 01:35 PM
Per Evans "protects from -40 to 375".
http://www.evanscooling.com/npg/

I did a lot of reading before I made the change, and not just from their web site.

taggart
05-28-2010, 01:45 PM
Does the heater still work?

doru
05-28-2010, 01:48 PM
Thanks Chief.
It's very, very tempting to use the stuff.
And compared to a total cooling overhaul......which you might not need now.....Not mentioning Zionsville.
Basically the only "scary" thang left is the fan and it's bloody clutch........

chiefwej
05-28-2010, 01:51 PM
Does the heater still work?

Why wouldn't it? The liquid is just a hot, it just won't boil.

I'm not going to run out and test it. It wouldn't come on anyway. The Climate Control system only goes up to 90 and it's over 90 here today.

taggart
05-28-2010, 01:55 PM
Why wouldn't it? The liquid is just a hot, it just won't boil.

I'm not going to run out and test it. It wouldn't come on anyway. The Climate Control system only goes up to 90 and it's over 90 here today.

Wow! That's probably all we need to address the cooling problem. Hope it works out. Say is it necessary to change to a lower bar cap? Just curious.

Over 90 is HOT!

chiefwej
05-28-2010, 02:12 PM
No, you don't need to change the cap. I just had it laying around and decided to use it. But, it is critical that ALL of the old coolant be removed before putting the NPG+ in the system. Water or traditional antifreeze will contaminate the system.

Per Evans: WATER IS CONSIDERED TO BE AN IMPURITY, AND HARMFUL TO THE SYSTEM.

edjack
05-28-2010, 02:41 PM
This stuff appears to be designed for big diesel trucks. These engines run at a much lower temperature tham the E39 V8. Ever notice the radiators covered over in the winter, so the driver doesn't freeze to death?

There may be a point there.

Keep us posted.

july865
05-28-2010, 06:24 PM
Does the heater still work?
thermostat maintains the proper temp still

POof540i
05-28-2010, 07:01 PM
Nice, how often do you have to change the fluid?

cn90
05-28-2010, 07:14 PM
I find this very interesting. The traditional coolant has about 50% water, so naturally when you boil it to 90-105C, the water evaporates, increasing the pressure, pretty much like a pressure cooker like Chief said.

On the other hand, I wonder why car makers don't simply fill the cooling system with ATF as the coolant? It would be a perfect fluid to be used as coolant. I may be wrong.

chiefwej
05-28-2010, 08:09 PM
Nice, how often do you have to change the fluid?
Per Evans: at least 100,000 miles.

"What is an Evans Waterless Coolant? Evans Waterless Coolants are the ONLY 100% waterless automotive engine coolant available on the market. All Evans Waterless Coolants are a chemical blend that results in more efficient cooling due to a higher boiling point. The increased boiling point of the coolant eliminates the occurance of boil over, cavitation, and detonation. Not only do Evans Waterless Coolants not boil over,they do not freeze. At extreme cold temperatures the coolants contract and become extremely thick, not becoming solid and expanding like antifreeze containing water. Because Evans Waterless Coolants do not contain water electrolysis and corrosion are also eliminated. Every Evans Waterless Coolant requires the entire cooling system to be drained (radiator, engine block and heater core) and refilled 100% with one of the Evans Waterless Coolants. No need to add anything. Evans now has three different coolants to choose from depending on the application and use of your specific vehicle. Also available is a flush fluid for smaller engines without block drains."

"Evans NPG+ Waterless Coolant is the most popular of Evans Waterless Coolants, recommended coolant for all gasoline and diesel engines. NPG+ is a year round, lifetime coolant. No other cooling system modifications are required for stock vehicles to run NPG+. Simply drain the entire system and fill. NPG+is safe for stored vehicles and vehicles operated in extreme cold conditions. Motorcycles and small engines are suggested to use Prep Fluid as a flush prior to installing NPG+. NPG+ meets or exceeds both the ASTM D 1384 corrosion test and the ASTM D 3306-94 specifications."

jbrovage
05-28-2010, 08:18 PM
don't oils retain heat? i think water is a better heat TRANSFER medium than oils. It's like the difference between aluminum radiators and copper/steel ones. aluminum costs more, but it's ability to dissipate heat is much better, so a smaller radiator is needed.

chiefwej
05-28-2010, 08:27 PM
Of all substances known, water has the highest latent heat capacity. But it has many other characteristics which create problems when used as a coolant. Low boil point, freezes readily, expands on freezing, corrosive, etc.

NPG+ boils above 375, it never freezes and it flows well down to -40, it is also non corrosive. It's just a bit expensive and can't be mixed with water or other coolants.

rtanov
05-28-2010, 11:04 PM
Of all substances known, water has the highest latent heat capacity.

Yes, and that is why we have this corrosive, evaporative, etc. fluid in our systems - it does a great job of taking heat out of the engine block and dissipating it through the radiator. So, what is the NPG+ heat capacity compared to water? How does your temperature gauge look compared to what it was with the regular coolant? You obviously did a lot of research before doing this, is there any data (preferably independent) about the engine operating temperature with the NPG+ compared to a regular coolant? This would be very interesting.

5er2er8er
05-28-2010, 11:58 PM
The temp gauge will read the same the liquid gets just as hot as regular coolant if i understand correctly the only difference is that it doesnt boil till 375* And since our normal temp doesnt get that high there will be no pressure in the system.

doru
05-29-2010, 08:09 AM
pV = nRT

july865
05-29-2010, 08:11 AM
The temp gauge will read the same the liquid gets just as hot as regular coolant if i understand correctly the only difference is that it doesnt boil till 375* And since our normal temp doesnt get that high there will be no pressure in the system.
soooo, you can get the same results, the same performance, not having to worry about seal and gasket compatibility, readily available everywhere, and at 1/3-1/2 the cost. just to keep the system for generating pressure. even dealer supplied coolant seems like a better deal.
hmmm. tuff sell for me.
but good info... all that matters is that you like it and works for you.

PropellerHead
05-29-2010, 08:29 AM
aluminum costs more, but it's ability to dissipate heat is much better, so a smaller radiator is needed.I think you might have that backwards. And don't forget that copper is heavier. Many of the '02 guys convert to copper tripple cored radiators for better efficiency over the under-performing stock units.

chiefwej
05-29-2010, 10:25 AM
soooo, you can get the same results, the same performance, not having to worry about seal and gasket compatibility, readily available everywhere, and at 1/3-1/2 the cost. just to keep the system for generating pressure. even dealer supplied coolant seems like a better deal.
hmmm. tuff sell for me.
but good info... all that matters is that you like it and works for you.

You got it. No pressure, no exploding radiators, no spewing leaks. If a hose sprung a leak, no explosion, you could just wrap some duct tape on it as a temp fix, w/ no pressure things just last longer.
Cost? BMW coolant 2 gal required @ $20 each + 2 gal distilled water @$1 ea = $42 Total Cost.
Evans 3 gal at $32 =$96.
$54 diff. For me, worth a try, and if it saves me a cooling system overhaul.........

I especially like the fact that so many who don't seem to care what brand of coolant they have been using in their BMW, are now so concerned about Evans compatibility with seals and gaskets.

doru
05-29-2010, 03:19 PM
I especially like the fact that so many who don't seem to care what brand of coolant they have been using in their BMW, are now so concerned about Evans compatibility with seals and gaskets.

This is the very essence of all forums. People like to play devil's advocate.

gtxragtop
05-30-2010, 03:26 AM
Does the heater still work?
Of course it does. This coolant does not lower the operating temperature of the engine. If the coolant was running at say 195F with conventional coolant it will run at 195F with NPG+.

Looking that the website what they are saying is that you can operate with 0 PSI safely. This is due to a high boiling point (375F) at 0 PSI. The entire purpose of pressure is to prevent conventional coolant from boiling. I read this to say you could safely modify your pressure cap to no longer allow pressure buildup. You DO want to allow for coolant expansion and contraction which with our Bimmer's we get from the integrated expansion tank. On a typical auto with a remote unpressurized expansion tank, you could safely modify the cap for 0 pressure while maintaining an airtight seal from the cap to the expansion tank to allow coolant to flow in/out of the expansion tank.

Thinking about this more, I wonder on our cars if we should ever modify the cap for 0 pressure. Since we do not have a remote reservoir, this will result in new air entering/exiting the system on every thermal cycle (hot to cold) Each time new oxygen is brought into the system and oxygen promotes corrosion. With a remote reservoir, that is not pressurized, only coolant is moved.

Summary: Do not modify your cap for 0 pressure

Boiling Point
Water@15 psi - 250 F
50/50 coolant @15 psi - 264F
NPG+ @0psi - 375F

Note with any fluid, when it heats and cools it expands and contracts. Apparently this is the only thing that generates pressure with the NPG coolant due to the high boiling point. This thread is very interesting and will continue to be as more members try NPG+ and share experiences. :cry: I just spent a ton of money on buying all the cooling system overhaul parts. That said, water pump bearings/seals do go, and my thermostat housing to engine seal does leak slightly though only under pressure. Perhaps my overhaul could have been limited to these 2 parts.

gtxragtop
05-30-2010, 04:09 AM
Yes, and that is why we have this corrosive, evaporative, etc. fluid in our systems - it does a great job of taking heat out of the engine block and dissipating it through the radiator. So, what is the NPG+ heat capacity compared to water? How does your temperature gauge look compared to what it was with the regular coolant? You obviously did a lot of research before doing this, is there any data (preferably independent) about the engine operating temperature with the NPG+ compared to a regular coolant? This would be very interesting.

Interesting point. I'm not a ME but this is what I dug up.
The heat capacity of water is 1.00
The heat capacity of conventional coolant is .81
The heat capacity of NPG+ is .64 or 64% of water.
Source: http://www.evanscooling.com/water-based-vs-waterless-differentiators/

Thus NPG+ requires less heat to change its temperature by a given amount than water or conventional coolant. This suggests to me that it is less efficient in gathering heat from the engine parts being cooled and less efficient at getting that heat removed at the radiator. Does this mean that the engine hot spots may not be cooled properly with NPG+ and you would not know this since the stuff has a 375F boiling point? Good questions.



More interesting explanation of specific heat:
The ability of water to stabilize temperature depends on its relatively high specific heat. The specific heat of a substance is defined at the amount of heat that must be absorbed or lost for 1 g of that substance to change its temperature by 1 C. The specific heat of water is 1.00 cal/g C. Compared with most other substances, water has an unusually high specific heat. For example, ethyl alcohol, the type in alcoholic beverages, has a specific heat of 0.6 cal/g C.

Because of the high specific heat of water relative to other materials, water will change its temperature less when it absorbs or loses a given amount of heat. The reason you can burn your finger by touching the metal handle of a pot on the stove when the water in the pot is still lukewarm is that the specific heat of water is ten times greater than that of iron. In other words, it will take only 0.1 cal to raise the temperature of 1 g of iron 1C. Specific heat can be thought of as a measure of how well a substance resists changing its temperature when it absorbs or releases heat. Water resists changing its temperature; when it does change its temperature, it absorbs or loses a relatively large quantity of heat for each degree of change.


Water sucks compared to this fluid for specific heat capacity:
Water, fresh 4.19 1.0
Ammonia, 32oF 4.6 1.1
Ammonia, 104oF 4.86 1.16
Ammonia, 176oF 5.4 1.29
Ammonia, 212oF 6.2 1.48
Ammonia, 238oF 6.74 1.61

But it boils at -33C so that might be a problem:thumbdwn:

AnotherGeezer
05-30-2010, 07:22 AM
It would be nice if all auto manufacturers would adopt this technology.

chiefwej
05-30-2010, 09:51 AM
Interesting point. I'm not a ME but this is what I dug up............

Water sucks compared to this fluid for specific heat capacity:
Water, fresh 4.19 1.0
Ammonia, 32oF 4.6 1.1
Ammonia, 104oF 4.86 1.16
Ammonia, 176oF 5.4 1.29
Ammonia, 212oF 6.2 1.48
Ammonia, 238oF 6.74 1.61

But it boils at -33C so that might be a problem:thumbdwn:

That is why so many large commercial industrial coolers use ammonia.

Quackers
05-30-2010, 10:16 AM
I must say that any idea to reduce the pressure of the cooling system sounds like a good idea to me. However, the engines are designed to run that hot and as a possible result, your emissions may possibly rise (as combustion may not be as complete).
Secondly BMW's anti-freeze contains corrosion inhibitors. Whilst I appreciate that inhibitors may not be required with a non-water system, I would need to confirm that before I tried it.

filon102
05-30-2010, 12:02 PM
it would be nice if u wrote a nice DIY... just an idea :dunno: (with pics please lol :thumbup:)

chiefwej
05-30-2010, 07:45 PM
I must say that any idea to reduce the pressure of the cooling system sounds like a good idea to me. However, the engines are designed to run that hot and as a possible result, your emissions may possibly rise (as combustion may not be as complete).
Secondly BMW's anti-freeze contains corrosion inhibitors. Whilst I appreciate that inhibitors may not be required with a non-water system, I would need to confirm that before I tried it.

The operating temperature should remain relatively unchanged. If anything it might even be a just a tad higher, and then only under severe loads.

While many of Evans products are for race cars and other specialty uses, NPG+ was formulated as a year-round lifetime coolant for use in stock vehicles. EVANS NPG+ has a "Proprietary Corrosion Inhibitor Package".

mrpumpk1n
05-30-2010, 09:55 PM
if they could find a suitable way to use liquid metal as coolant, itd be very effecient. sort of like LMFBRs. liquid metals have better heat transfer characteriistics, btu the only problem remains that the engine needs to stay hot. may be in the future, theyl find a solution

gtxragtop
05-31-2010, 04:25 AM
This is a bit disturbing if true. Check out the viscosity. When cool or cold NPG+ is like trying to pump molasses. Yes, it will heat up in a few miles but what bad stuff is taking place during that time? Probably not good stuff for cold winter climates.
http://www.lubricationspecialist.com/front/showcontent.aspx?fileid=21

See post #17 here: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=3270937

I'm sticking with BMW EG and distilled water. :thumbup:


EVANS MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NPG+
Cooling Systems, Inc.
02/11/2003 EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS, INC. Page 1 of 4
Rev A
SECTION 1- PRODUCT AND MANUFACTURER INFORMATION
MSDS DATE: 02/11/2003
PRODUCT NPG+
SYNONYMS Coolant
CHEMICAL FAMILY Glycols
FORMULA Blend
MANUFACTURER EMERGENCY INFORMATION
Evans Cooling Systems, Inc
255 Route 41 North EMERGENCY PHONE 888-990-2665 (24-hour)
Sharon, CT 06069
860-364-5130
SECTION 2 - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS
CHEMICAL/COMMON NAME CAS-NUMBER % PEL-OSHA ACGIH - STEL
ETHYLENE GLYCOL 107-21-1 69% none established 50 ppm (ceiling)
Product is not considered carcinogenic by NTP, IARC or OSHA
SECTION 3 - HAZARDOUS MATERIAL IDENTIFICATION SYSTEM
HEALTH=2 FLAMMABILITY=0 REACTIVITY=0 PROTECTION=B
SECTION 4 - HEALTH HAZARD DATA
HEALTH EFFECTS (Acute And Chronic)
EYES May cause slight transient eye irritation; corneal injury is unlikely.
SKIN Generally non-irritating. Prolonged or repeated contact may cause flaking, tenderness and softening of
the skin.
INHALATION No adverse effects under normal usage. However, if significant vapors or mists are inhaled,
exposure may result in irritation to the upper respiratory system.
INGESTION Ethylene Glycol is considered toxic and may cause central nervous system depression, dizziness,
headache and nausea. Significant ingestion may lead to loss of consciousness. Has been known
to cause kidney toxicity.
PRIMARY ROUTES OF ENTRY
EYES/SKIN: Yes INHALATION: No INGESTION: Not Likely
MEDICAL CONDITIONS AGGRAVATED BY EXPOSURE pre-existing eye disease
EVANS MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NPG+
Cooling Systems, Inc.
02/11/2003 EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS, INC. Page 2 of 4
Rev A
SECTION 5 - FIRST AID INSTRUCTIONS
EYES Flood with water for at least 15 minutes. If irritation persists, get medical attention.
SKIN Wash with water and mild soap. If irritation occurs and persists, get medical attention.
INHALATION Inhalation exposure should require no action. However, if significant inhalation exposure has
occurred, move victim to fresh air. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. If breathing has
stopped, administer artificial respiration (mouth to mouth is preferred) if trained - get immediate
medical attention.
INGESTION If victim is alert, give the victim 4 8 oz of water. Do NOT induce vomiting. Keep victim calm
warm and seek medical advice
NOTE: Liver damage may be indicated by loss of appetite, jaundice, fatigue and sometimes pain/swelling on
right upper abdomen. Kidney toxicity is indicated by blood in urine or increased/decreased urine flow. Other
signs and symptoms of exposure can include nausea, abdominal cramps and diarrhea.
SECTION 6 - CHEMICAL DATA
BOILING POINT 375F SPECIFIC GRAVITY (WATER=1) 1.09
VAPOR PRESSURE (kPa) 8.0@176F SPECIFIC HEAT @212F 0.66BTU/lb
VAPOR DENSITY (AIR=1) >1.0 AUTOIGNITION TEMPERATURE 1054.7f
SOLUBILITY IN WATER complete
APPEARANCE AND ODOR INFORMATION Brown liquid, faint sweet trace odor
INCOMPATIBILITY (Materials To Avoid) oxidizers
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS none
WILL HAZARDOUS POLYMERIZATION OCCUR no
CONDITIONS TO AVOID FOR POLYMERIZATION none
IS THE PRODUCT STABLE yes
CONDITIONS TO AVOID FOR STABILITY none
SECTION 7 FIRE FIGHTING INFORMATION
FLASH POINT (Method Used) 233.4F FLAMMABLE LIMITS lower = 2.6% upper = 12.6%
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA water fog, foam, dry chemical
SPECIAL FIRE FIGHTING PROCEDURES Keep fire-exposed containers cool with water fog. Wear SCBA
and full turnout gear as recommended by NFPA.
UNUSUAL FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS None expected under normal storage and handling
conditions. Avoid exposing product to ignition sources (sparks) or temperatures above flash or autoignition
point.
EVANS MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NPG+
Cooling Systems, Inc.
02/11/2003 EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS, INC. Page 3 of 4
Rev A
SECTION 8 - SPILL OR LEAK/DISPOSAL PROCEDURES
STEPS TO BE TAKEN IN CASE MATERIAL IS RELEASED OR SPILLED
Dike and contain the spill. Spread granular absorbent Sweep up and place in container for disposal. Do not
allow material to enter drains, sewers and waterways. Comply with spill all local notification requirements. All
response activities must comply with HAZWOPER (29CFR 1910.120).
WASTE DISPOSAL METHODS Dispose of waste in compliance with local, state and federal regulations.
Recycle all wastes whenever feasible.
SECTION 9 TOXICOLOGY INFORMATION
For ETHYLENE GLYCOL: Repeated oral exposure in experimental animals and in humans has caused kidney
toxicity secondary to metabolic acidosis. Humans are more sensitive to ethylene glycol than experimental
animals. Toxic doses are estimated to be 3 4 oz (approx. one-half cup) for an average human adult.
SECTION 10 ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Data being evaluated.
SECTION 11 - EXPOSURE CONTROL AND PROTECTION
VENTILATION Use forced-air ventilation when handling product in a confined area
RESPIRATORY PROTECTION Not normally needed during intended usage and handling. However, if
exposure causes irritation during routine or non-routine application of product, use NIOSH/MSHA approved
respiratory protection (refer to 29CFR 1910.134).
PROTECTIVE GLOVES Rubber or PVC (refer to 29CFR 1910.132)
OTHER PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT Wear eye protection and full cover shirt and pants to protect against
exposure. Provide local emergency showers and eyewash stations in the workplace
OTHER ENGINEERING CONTROLS Use local exhaust to minimize mist or vapor levels in the work area.
WORK PRACTICES All users should consult MSDS before handling this material.
HYGIENIC PRACTICES Wash hands and face after using this product. Remove contaminated clothing
Launder contaminated clothing before re-use.
SECTION 12 HANDLING AND STORAGE
PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN HANDLING AND STORAGE Store in a cool, dry place. Keep all
containers closed when not in use.
SECTION 13 - SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS
MAINTENANCE PRECAUTIONS None
EVANS MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NPG+
Cooling Systems, Inc.
02/11/2003 EVANS COOLING SYSTEMS, INC. Page 4 of 4
Rev A
SECTION 14 OTHER INFORMATION
NOTE: This MSDS is intended to protect personnel during packaging, storage and transport of the product in
bulk quantities. It is recognized that the end-user will most likely handle (and subsequently be exposed to) less
than 10 gallons of the product.
SECTION 15 REGULATORY INFORMATION
COMPONENT INFORMATION: ( U.S.A. and Foreign Patents Pending )
00107-21-1 Ethylene Glycol (66 70%) **
00057-55-6 Propylene Glycol
7732-15-5 Water
- - - - - - Proprietary Corrosion Inhibitor Package <2%
SARA INFORMATION **Ethylene Glycol is regulated under SARA III Section 313 Supplier Notification
Requirements.
TSCA INFORMATION All components of this product are listed in the TSCA Inventory.
DOT INFORMATION
Not Regulated
SECTION 16 HAZARDOUS MATERIAL IDENTIFICATION GUIDE
The follow letter codes refer to personal protective equipment (PPE) recommendations as shown in SECTION 3
of this MSDS, relative to handling hazardous chemical products.
A Safety Glasses
B Safety Glasses, Hand Protection
C Safety Glasses, Hand Protection, Protective Apron
D Full Face Shield, Hand Protection, Protective Apron
E Safety Glasses, Hand Protection, Dust Respirator
F Safety Glasses, Hand Protection, Dust Respirator, Protective Apron
G Safety Glasses, Hand Protection, Vapor Respirator
H Splash Goggles, Hand Protection, Protective Apron, Vapor Respirator
I Safety Glasses, Hand Protection, Dust & Vapor Respirator
J Safety Glasses, Hand Protection, Protective Apron, Dust & Vapor Respirator
K Air Line Hood or Mask, Hand Protection, Full Body Suit, protective Boots
X Unspecified to be determined*
(*special equipment selection for site-specific applications not otherwise shown here):thumbup:

rtanov
05-31-2010, 06:26 AM
Yes, the very high viscosity struck me too. This could make it harder to flow through especially in tight spots. Could be a problem or not, you need a CFD analysis to find out for each specific engine. The high viscosity would also make the water pump work at a higher load. As for the winter, I thought it would be better as the engine will warm up faster.

chiefwej
05-31-2010, 10:09 AM
Lower temperature viscosity was not a factor in my examination of NPG+. I live in Tucson, where +40 is a cold winter day. But, Evans claims an operating range to -40, so if you folks up near the arctic circle see it as an issue, I suggest you contact them for answers.

jbrovage
05-31-2010, 06:58 PM
what about the possibility of snapping off the impeller on the water pump, due to the high viscosity ratings? This may be way off base, but don't most big rig semis have engine heaters to avoid the super-high viscosity of oil/diesel/(COOLANT) in colder climates?

I'd absolutely do this if i could be sure it's not going to cause problems with the engine. i love the idea of "no ping" due to improved combustion chamber temps!

bluebee
05-31-2010, 11:24 PM
NPG+ ... can't be mixed with water or other coolants.

What happens if the NPG+ waterless coolant (http://www.custommachiningusa.com/Evans_NPG+.html) IS (perhaps accidentally) mixed with water?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=232639&stc=1&d=1275373477

chiefwej
06-01-2010, 10:45 AM
Further reading of the MSDS, it would appear than NPG+ is a proprietary blend of ethylene glycol, propylene glycol, water and corrosion inhibitors. Approximately 69% is ethylene glycol. So it looks like they have taken the traditional (ethylene glycol) coolant mix and replaced the water with mostly propylene glycol. Since the MSDS only gives the approximate % of any hazardous materials (ethylene glycol) in the blend, we have no way of knowing the % of all ingredients. Without this information, specific gravity, heat capacity cannot really be determined. So we are just guessing. Evans "waterless" coolant could even have a small % of water in it. By "waterless" it means you must never add water to it.

Evans makes several other coolants. Since some of the others do require larger capacity pumps and other modifications, and they state that this particular product was designed specifically to be used in stock systems without any modification required, it appears that they have taken the factors of heat capacity and specific gravity into consideration in this blend.

I understand that there will continue to be forum members who won't accept Evans statements. But, there are two things that bother me about that. One, if you don't trust any of their claims, and we don't know the % of the ingredients, where are you getting your information? Two, many of the same people who are afraid of Evans, will go to their local Wal-Mart buy whatever antifreeze is on sale, and dump it in their car's radiator. If you can't trust Evans claims, how do you trust Prestone, Zerex, et al?

For me, I don't want to go through another cooling system overhaul. So I guess I'll be the guinea pig. I have a several hundred mile road trip with the local BMW club, this weekend. It is across the desert and through the mountains to Canyon de Chelly and back. If any problems come up, I'll be posting them.

justin182
06-01-2010, 11:36 AM
Hi Chief,

I'm a little late to the party, but thanks for the great info! I'll definitely be looking into this for my '03 540. I've only got about 53,000 miles so I'm probably due for an overhaul in the not-to-distant future. The idea of reducing the pressure in the cooling system seems very intelligent to me.

If I understand the physics, the operating temperature of the NPG coolant is not substantially different from the oem coolant, it just has a much higher boiling point. Since the liquid never gets hot enough to boil, the pressure stays relatively constant, close to zero.

I have read that many cooling system failures, at least in our V8s, are from radiator necks and expansion tanks cracking/breaking. It seems to be the consensus that this is likely due to repeated heat cycling of the plastic and less to the pressure in the system. If the NPG coolant operating temperature is not substantially less than the oem coolant, then I'm not sure this would reduce those failures.

That being said, I'm still all-in on reducing the pressure in the system. This seems a very logical way to reduce stress on all the system components.

Anyone else have thoughts?

chiefwej
06-01-2010, 12:34 PM
Hi Chief,

I'm a little late to the party, but thanks for the great info! I'll definitely be looking into this for my '03 540. I've only got about 53,000 miles so I'm probably due for an overhaul in the not-to-distant future. The idea of reducing the pressure in the cooling system seems very intelligent to me.

If I understand the physics, the operating temperature of the NPG coolant is not substantially different from the oem coolant, it just has a much higher boiling point. Since the liquid never gets hot enough to boil, the pressure stays relatively constant, close to zero.

I have read that many cooling system failures, at least in our V8s, are from radiator necks and expansion tanks cracking/breaking. It seems to be the consensus that this is likely due to repeated heat cycling of the plastic and less to the pressure in the system. If the NPG coolant operating temperature is not substantially less than the oem coolant, then I'm not sure this would reduce those failures.

That being said, I'm still all-in on reducing the pressure in the system. This seems a very logical way to reduce stress on all the system components.

Anyone else have thoughts?

While I would agree that heat cycles weaken the plastic components, it is the pressure that causes it to finally crack. We will see. Since I am planning to keep my 540 for a long time, i will see how long before any cooling system issues crop up.

CrushersBMW
06-01-2010, 12:44 PM
I definitely am interested in this - and I'll keep watching to see if there are any problems.

I'm not convinced that the pressure in the system is causing the failures or the repeated heat-cycling. I'm also wondering if there is a flaw in the cooling system design as my '87 Mercury V-8 and '96 Ford V-8 had a zero pressure expansion tank and the pressure regulator in the radiator cap - and they both went over 150,000 miles - on the stock expansion tank and radiator (but it was metal :) ) I'll have to look over schematics on the E-39 and figure out how the systems are different....

I also continue to wonder what the auto design engineers were thinking when they came up with plastic high-temp components....... Weight savings and production savings maybe, but certainly not reliability.....

I figure I have to do one re-build of the cooling system as the current one is past 60K - and I'm keeping an eye on it........ But, if i Evans saves me doing another one, I'm all for the Evans NPG+ :thumbup:

Keep us posted!

chiefwej
06-01-2010, 03:31 PM
I'll bet your '87 Merc didnt have a 2 bar (>29 psi) pressure cap. Thirty pounds per square inch is fine for tires, but when cooling systems are under that kind of pressure, we see the results. Most cars run maximum pressures in the 14 - 18 psi range. I'll see what the below 5 psi range does.

haolibird
06-01-2010, 04:04 PM
Chief,

I have had Evans in my car over 6 months now, and all is well.

It's gratifiying to see your post, as it justifies, somewhat, what I already knew.

Now, if you can steer this into an oil post, were MY oil is agreed upon as being the best, it will make my YEAR.

Thanks,

Tom

CrushersBMW
06-01-2010, 04:48 PM
I'll bet your '87 Merc didnt have a 2 bar (>29 psi) pressure cap. Thirty pounds per square inch is fine for tires, but when cooling systems are under that kind of pressure, we see the results. Most cars run maximum pressures in the 14 - 18 psi range. I'll see what the below 5 psi range does.

I'm reasonably sure it didn't run such high pressures. But, the design was such that if the pressure exceeded 15psi or so, it allowed the fluid in the radiator to vent to a zero psi expansion tank. When the system cooled, it would siphon the vented fluid back in to the radiator. The radiator was at pressure, but the expansion tank wasn't.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems like the expansion tanks come apart because they are pressurized - which is a different design. Or, maybe the expansion tank explosion happens because the cap is blocked and allows the tank to retain pressure for which it wasn't designed - in which case it's the cap's fault, not the tank.

The radiator cracking is most likely a result of the thermal cycling and the pressure - which is higher than "standard" cars. Additionally, that higher pressure allows the fluid to remain liquid longer. I'm not sure what the boiling point of water is at 2 atmg, but it's considerably higher than 212F. That pressure is required to get the higher boiling point for higher operational temps - which only makes the thermal situation worse.

Like I said, keep us informed. I don't see a downside to the addition of NPG+. And if the addition keeps me from replacing a cooling system after the next replacement, I'm all for it.

Josh P.
06-01-2010, 05:18 PM
Very interesting thread and informative posts, Chief. For those of us who have had cooling system issues (this means you) it is especially interesting to hear this solution.

But, the cooling system is much more than just the radiator and expansion tank. Yes, the cheapo hoses/expansion tank/connectors fail, most likely due to pressure. But many of us get leaks in the water pump (or the pump just goes bad), the thermostat and/or housing, and related hoses. I don't think reducing system pressure will prolong the life of these components, so really you're maybe saving a few hundred bucks for the rad and exp tank. It would be interesting to hear what an experienced BMW indy thinks about NPG.

Personally, I would be really nervous with a cooling system that is allergic to water. Operating the car in a desert under the assumption that if the system starts to overheat you can repair it with duct tape seems risky to me. I suppose as long as you have spare NPG in the trunk you're ok, but one thing about water (and antifreeze) is that it's readily available. And god forbid some idiot tech puts water in there. Are there big warning stickers on the radiator neck?

Just MHO of course.

wyowolf
06-01-2010, 07:02 PM
Per there website info:


Unexpected loss of coolant: In the event of a highway emergency resulting in a coolant loss, NEVER ADD WATER EXCEPT AS A LAST RESORT. Evans NPG+ and Evans NPGR waterless coolants are compatible with Evans HDTC and may be used to replace modest percentages of HDTC. If water is the only fluid available, use it to get home with and as soon as possible (preferably within 2 weeks) re-install Evans HDTC. Water left in the system will cause cylinder liner cavitation and other problems.

bluebee
06-01-2010, 09:49 PM
Water left in the system will cause cylinder liner cavitation and other problems.

Do I read that correctly? Water will cause the cylinder sleeves to collapse?

Speaking of physics ... it would be interesting for someone to explain the sequence of events that cause that!

justin182
06-02-2010, 08:00 AM
Do I read that correctly? Water will cause the cylinder sleeves to collapse?


No. Cavitation refers to the formation of empty space within a substance, bubbles in this case. If water is in the system with NPG, the combination of normal operating temperature and lower than oem pressure will cause the water to boil. The resulting bubbles pop with surprisingly high force and damage the wet side (coolant side) walls of the cylinder liners.

wyowolf
06-02-2010, 09:40 AM
I meant to say that if you use this stuff and breakdown its ok to add water or coolant to get home by. some of the previous posters were worried about a breakdown...

am seriously considering this stuff... one less thing to worry about breaking...

chiefwej
06-02-2010, 11:56 AM
No. Cavitation refers to the formation of empty space within a substance, bubbles in this case. If water is in the system with NPG, the combination of normal operating temperature and lower than oem pressure will cause the water to boil. The resulting bubbles pop with surprisingly high force and damage the wet side (coolant side) walls of the cylinder liners.
Wow, I'm impressed, cavitation explained clearly in two short sentences.

justin182
06-02-2010, 12:22 PM
Wow, I'm impressed, cavitation explained clearly in two short sentences.

I do what I can to please the people! :D

chiefwej
06-08-2010, 07:21 PM
Well, I did a 1,000 mile road trip with the local BMWCCA chapter. We went up to Canyon de Chelly in northern AZ. Full AC on at desert high temps, and climbing through the mountains. No problems, in fact several times after running hard, just to see, I popped open the radiator cap. Never more than that same little psst, about like opening a beer can. There couldn't have ever been more than 2 or 3 psi in the system.

So far, the Evans NPG+ works exactly as advertised. I am very pleased. I will continue the long term observations.

BigCo540i
06-08-2010, 07:34 PM
Sweet, good to hear it Chief.

cdawg246
06-09-2010, 09:19 AM
good move and thanks for posting ur results--i think im going to do the changeover--my 540i just turned 140,000 rhis week and im scared of my cooling system failing--where can u buy the evans coolant?

Mack
06-09-2010, 12:25 PM
Great thread Chief. FYI how bout just keeping an extra gallon jug or so in the trunk in case of a breakdown in BFE? It would suck to have to add some water to limp home then completely drain the system then spend more $$ to put all Evans NPG back in. Anywho great stuff and very informative. Chief how many miles do you have on the beast and how many overhauls have you done?

And to the poor sap that is getting shanked on the Zionsville can you highlight why they have denied your request for a new or rebuilt rad? I found this on their site just now. If I paid $600+ for a rad I would damn sure follow their guidelines closely. Goodluck!

"Lifetime Warranty!
Zionsville Autosport guarantees our radiators for life to the original purchaser. Purchaser must provide proof of BMW coolant use at first installation and once every two years thereafter. "

chiefwej
06-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Great thread Chief. FYI how bout just keeping an extra gallon jug or so in the trunk in case of a breakdown in BFE? It would suck to have to add some water to limp home then completely drain the system then spend more $$ to put all Evans NPG back in. Anywho great stuff and very informative. Chief how many miles do you have on the beast and how many overhauls have you done?

And to the poor sap that is getting shanked on the Zionsville can you highlight why they have denied your request for a new or rebuilt rad? I found this on their site just now. If I paid $600+ for a rad I would damn sure follow their guidelines closely. Goodluck!

"Lifetime Warranty!
Zionsville Autosport guarantees our radiators for life to the original purchaser. Purchaser must provide proof of BMW coolant use at first installation and once every two years thereafter. "

If you read my first post, you would note that I ordered a case (4 gal) of NPG+. Since the cooling system only holds 12 liters (2 3/4 gal), I have an extra gallon+ for my trunk.

I have only done one cooling system overhaul (at 50k miles), and am trying to avoid ever doing a second. The car was just short of 62k when I put the NPG+ in.

Mack
06-09-2010, 09:06 PM
If you read my first post, you would note that I ordered a case (4 gal) of NPG+. Since the cooling system only holds 12 liters (2 3/4 gal), I have an extra gallon+ for my trunk.

I have only done one cooling system overhaul (at 50k miles), and am trying to avoid ever doing a second. The car was just short of 62k when I put the NPG+ in.

I did read your post and I didn't realize you kept the leftovers in your trunk. However I was referring to others who mentioned it could be an issue in a pinch. Easy enough fix obviously. And damn cooling overhaul at 50k. I assume that was preventative. Anywho, great thread all the same and will be interesting to see if anything else develops. :thumbup:

chiefwej
06-09-2010, 11:08 PM
Nope, not preventive. My radiator cracked at 50k, so I did the radiator, expansion tank, fan clutch, thermostat, idler pulleys, etc. In fact, I did the radiator twice. The first one they sent me was bad. I just don't want to do it again, hence the NPG+.

Mack
06-10-2010, 06:51 AM
Wow that has to be some sort of record for a rad failure at just 50k. Unbelievable! My little 525i made it to 120 before I did a complete overhaul as a precaution. Can't blame anyone for wanting to avoid doing that more than once. Did you go all stock with replacement parts?

Josh P.
06-10-2010, 07:04 AM
My cooling system was leaking around 55k at t-stat. No explosion TG but I'm sure it wouldn't have been long.

ztom
06-10-2010, 07:12 AM
Well, I decided that if I run a zero pressure cooling system, I may not have to do that next cooling system overhaul. No pressure, no exploding radiator.

So I ordered a case of Evans NPG+ waterless coolant. Not cheap at about $120, but if it saves an overhaul............... The case was 4 gallons. It took 12 liters (or about 2 3/4 gallons) to fill the system. That leaves over a gallon for top-ups, since you can't add water or any other kind of coolant with Evans.

I fully drained the system, radiator, lower hose, block drains, and ran the heater pump to get it out of there. I must have got it all because Bentley says it holds 12 liters and that is exactly what I got in it. So everything must have been out and there can't be any air trapped in there. After the NPG+ fill I changed the 2 bar cap for a 1.4 bar one.

With a boiling point of 375 degrees there should never be any pressure in the system now.

Tempting but put a glass of it the freezer, too thick in morning? Hard on pump?

Dworkin
06-10-2010, 01:07 PM
Very interesting thread! Please be careful taking the radiator cap off when hot. Tho it doesn't appear to be pressurized, I'd hate for you to get a bad burn.

chiefwej
06-10-2010, 02:32 PM
Sorry, see below.

chiefwej
06-10-2010, 02:40 PM
Wow that has to be some sort of record for a rad failure at just 50k. Unbelievable! My little 525i made it to 120 before I did a complete overhaul as a precaution. Can't blame anyone for wanting to avoid doing that more than once. Did you go all stock with replacement parts?
The 540's are subject to a lot more heat than the 6's, and I live in Tucson where it was 104 yesterday, and it's been a cool summer so far.

Tempting but put a glass of it the freezer, too thick in morning? Hard on pump?

Sure, but my household freezer is only 0, and NPG+ is rated down to -40. At 0 it only thickens a little and it would warm very quickly when the engine was started. Where I live the coldest it ever gets is about +25, so for me.....a non issue.

Those who live in the arctic may want to do further research.

doru
06-10-2010, 07:07 PM
My cooling system was leaking around 55k at t-stat. No explosion TG but I'm sure it wouldn't have been long.

I'm still with all OEM parts except the belt and the T-stat (stuck open at 60K miles). Now I'm at around 82K miles.

wyowolf
06-18-2010, 06:29 PM
Officially joined today!!! Seems to work great... cant really tell any difference, except for the no pressure part...

Thanks Chief!!

dms540i
06-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Chief,
My hat's off to you for taking a stand against the tyranny of overlooked systems engineering. And thank you for answering all the questions. If this thing works we'll all be customers.

wyowolf
06-19-2010, 01:08 PM
Day two and the car has yet to melt down. I did notice something, I am running appx 2 degrees cooler then previous. before it was almost exactly 108-109 now its 105-106. Just wondering if anyone else has notice this...

franka
06-21-2010, 10:06 AM
What is the payoff, the benefit of this expensive mod?

wyowolf
06-21-2010, 10:55 AM
Hopefully not having my super engineered cooling system blow itself up at an inopportune time....

PropellerHead
06-21-2010, 11:50 AM
Wow that has to be some sort of record for a rad failure at just 50k. Mine failed at 42K. I even wrote ab it here (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1105285&postcount=8) in a thread where the OP lost his under 50K.

Mack
06-21-2010, 11:58 AM
There goes classic Franka sarcasm again. Prop I'd have to guess the best thing about the the trani failing so early is that it's still WELL within manufacturer warranty. I'd rather it fail at 42 or 50k than 110k!

PropellerHead
06-21-2010, 03:32 PM
Prop I'd have to guess the best thing about the the trani failing so early is that it's still WELL within manufacturer warranty. I'd rather it fail at 42 or 50k than 110k!Pretty sure you meant radi as that is our topic du jour. Of course, I bought a Zionsville when I did all the upgrades. I don't think about it at all, now.

Well, that and the fact that I'm now at 55K- Just 13k miles over the past 6 years. :eeps:

Jason5driver
06-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Pretty sure you meant radi as that is our topic du jour. Of course, I bought a Zionsville when I did all the upgrades. I don't think about it at all, now.

Well, that and the fact that I'm now at 55K- Just 13k miles over the past 6 years. :eeps:

Since you don't drive your car much, I would be happy to take it out for a spin to keep the blood pumping...
:)

Mack
06-21-2010, 05:16 PM
LOL damn talk about a garage queen. Jason is really a giver lately.

franka
06-22-2010, 09:09 AM
There goes classic Franka sarcasm again. !

Its not sarcasm. Its a simple question. Its an expensive mod so what is the benefit? :dunno:

Mark@EAC
06-22-2010, 10:09 AM
The benefit is that the system operates at around roughly 20PSI with normal coolant, stressing every component and causing leaks at the weak points. If you take away that pressure then the system is under significantly less stress, lasting much longer and will not leak when hot. You've seen the threads with the e39 radiators that have blown out the upper hose neck have you not? You have seen the "mystery coolant loss" threads, yes?

Why do you suppose these cars suffer from leaks that are hard to find? Because with a pinhole the system does not leak when cold, only when the coolant has been heated and expands putting pressure on every hose, fitting and part in the system.

I'm all for questioning any fluid we put in our cars. This seems like a winner to me though if the facts are indeed true. Might just take work from me though, no more exploded radiators to change on a saturday afternoon. I suppose I can live with that. :)

Some smart person needs to develop their own brand of this stuff and sell it at reasonable prices. Of course if you look at it another way- is 100 dollars worth knowing your car will probably never have a cooling system failure?

chiefwej
06-22-2010, 10:15 AM
The benefit is that the system operates at around roughly 30PSI with normal coolant, stressing every component and causing leaks at the weak points. If you take away that pressure then the system is under significantly less stress, lasting much longer and will not leak when hot. You've seen the threads with the e39 radiators that have blown out the upper hose neck have you not? You have seen the "mystery coolant loss" threads, yes?

Why do you suppose these cars suffer from leaks that are hard to find? Because with a pinhole the system does not leak when cold, only when the coolant has been heated and expands putting pressure on every hose, fitting and part in the system.

I'm all for questioning any fluid we put in our cars. This seems like a winner to me though if the facts are indeed true. Might just take work from me though, no more exploded radiators to change on a saturday afternoon. I suppose I can live with that. :)

Some smart person needs to develop their own brand of this stuff and sell it at reasonable prices. Of course if you look at it another way- is 100 dollars worth knowing your car will probably never have a cooling system failure?
Corrected (2 bar = 29.00754746133 psi)

Mark@EAC
06-22-2010, 10:15 AM
I said roughly didn't I? :) The expansion tank cap is rated at 2 bar or approx. 30PSI, so the system will run somewhere south of 30PSI before the cap vents excess pressure.

Mack
06-22-2010, 10:21 AM
Its not sarcasm. Its a simple question. Its an expensive mod so what is the benefit? :dunno:

1. No more cooling failures = no more cooling overhauls which results in saved $$ and time
2. As long as it's cheaper than at least one cooling overhaul theoretically it "should" be worth it. Assuming it works as expected.

If nothing else it's damn interesting and I'll enjoy following the results if Chief reports back every coupla months.

doru
06-22-2010, 10:50 AM
2 questions:
Would you replace the waterpump before doing this, assuming the pump is OEM and the bearing might fail soon (not sure how long this "soon" is: months, years from now? if so how many?) Any other parts that might be iffy aside from the fan & clutch?

Could not find any significant info for cold weather. Would you need a sturdier waterpump - like the Stewart - or would the regular one handle a more viscous fluid at an almost consistent -20C (-4F)ambient for days? Also, we have the odd -40 to close to -50C bursts.(-40F to -58F). It sais that it freezes at -40F. So how thick would it be @ -35F? Obviously I would have to keep it garaged if the forecast is too low for temp.
How thick would the fluid be? This is my only concern - can the waterpump push the cold "molasses" from the rad?

wyowolf
06-22-2010, 11:07 AM
I did this a few days ago, replaced all the heater hoses and the valley pan and WP. Rad is two years old as are rad hoses. So i should be good to go. Chief is right, i get barely any pressure after running in 95 degree days... actually i cant tell any difference except that I seem to run a Degree or two cooler... usually 108-9 now 106-7... not sure why.

Thanks Chief if not for you i wouldnt have found this...

franka
06-22-2010, 11:28 AM
1. No more cooling failures = no more cooling overhauls which results in saved $$ and time
2. As long as it's cheaper than at least one cooling overhaul theoretically it "should" be worth it. Assuming it works as expected.

If nothing else it's damn interesting and I'll enjoy following the results if Chief reports back every coupla months.


The water pump, thermostat, hoses etc will wear at the same rate. Reducing the system's pressure will not prevent that wear. The operating temperature is the same as with water. The system's heat contributes to wear as it does when running OEM coolant.

For example, the bearings in my not too old replaced water pump failed, crashing the impeller into its housing and twisting the water pump forward driving the fan into the radiator. The super fluid would not have prevented this occurance.

Minor or major failures in the cooling system will leak expensive fluid ranging from 1/2 liter to 1/2 of all the fluid in the system. Oouuch.

doru
06-22-2010, 11:31 AM
Franka, what make of waterpump did you use, OEM or HEPU or other brand?

chiefwej
06-22-2010, 12:12 PM
2 questions:
Would you replace the waterpump before doing this, assuming the pump is OEM and the bearing might fail soon (not sure how long this "soon" is: months, years from now? if so how many?) Any other parts that might be iffy aside from the fan & clutch?

Could not find any significant info for cold weather. Would you need a sturdier waterpump - like the Stewart - or would the regular one handle a more viscous fluid at an almost consistent -20C (-4F)ambient for days? Also, we have the odd -40 to close to -50C bursts.(-40F to -58F). It sais that it freezes at -40F. So how thick would it be @ -35F? Obviously I would have to keep it garaged if the forecast is too low for temp.
How thick would the fluid be? This is my only concern - can the waterpump push the cold "molasses" from the rad?

Evans Does not freeze at -40. They rate it for use to that temp. They say that unlike a water mixture that freezes into a solid and expands (breaking blocks and other parts) it just thickens into a kind of "slush" with no expansion below that temp. As to viscosity and suitability for very cold climates, I suggest you contact Evans directly with your questions.

chiefwej
06-22-2010, 12:24 PM
The water pump, thermostat, hoses etc will wear at the same rate. Reducing the system's pressure will not prevent that wear. The operating temperature is the same as with water. The system's heat contributes to wear as it does when running OEM coolant.

For example, the bearings in my not too old replaced water pump failed, crashing the impeller into its housing and twisting the water pump forward driving the fan into the radiator. The super fluid would not have prevented this occurance.

Minor or major failures in the cooling system will leak expensive fluid ranging from 1/2 liter to 1/2 of all the fluid in the system. Oouuch.

I did a cooling system overhaul (OEM pump) before changing to NPG+. The water pump is the only mechanical part of the system likely to fail. No one is suggesting that this will make the pump last longer, but reduced pressure should dramatically increase the life of every other part of the cooling system.

The most common failures are the radiator and expansion tank. The cost of an NPG+ fill (over BMW coolant) is $52 (about 1/3 the price of a radiator), and a complete cooling system refresh will cost over ten times the cost, just in parts.

Then the issue of piece of mind. It's either NPG+ or Zionville.

Mack
06-22-2010, 12:29 PM
Hey Chief did you happen to install the performance water pump with metal impeller?

franka
06-22-2010, 12:30 PM
Franka, what make of waterpump did you use, OEM or HEPU or other brand?

I don't know which brand it was, sorry

franka
06-22-2010, 12:32 PM
I did a cooling system overhaul before changing to NPG+. The water pump is the only mechanical part of the system likely to fail. No one is suggesting that this will make the pump last longer, but reduced pressure should dramatically increase the life of every other part of the cooling system.

The most common failures are the radiator and expansion tank. The cost of an NPG+ fill (over BMW coolant) is $52 (about 1/3 the price of a radiator), and a complete cooling system refresh will cost over ten times the cost, just in parts.

Then the issue of piece of mind. It's either NPG+ or Zionville.


Good feedback info. Thanks

doru
06-23-2010, 11:52 AM
Update:
I contacted Evans Cooling Systems for cold climate, to see how viscous the NPG+ fluid could get at fridgid temperatures.
Here is my question:
Hello.
I currently have a 2003 BMW 530, and I am intrigued by your product (NPG+). My car runs at a high cooling system pressure and reading about your product, this might be answer to overcome cooling issues (plastic parts that develop cracks due to pressure and hot cold fluctuations).
However, I live in a cold climate, and my main concern is the low temperature during winter months. The temperature sees lots of -20C (-4F), and a few days where it dips between -30C to -50C (-22F 58F) not that often though a few days only. My question is: how viscous will the NPG+ fluid get, and can the waterpump handle/push it though the radiator if it gets that thick (if ever it gets thick)?

Thank you
And here is the answer I got:

Dorin..the NPG+ is good to -40 below zero. At temps below that it will start to get more viscous,like gear oil. In conditions that cold we do recommend letting the motor warm up and get the coolant thinned out so it can flow.
In a changeover for your car, all youre doing is a change of coolant, leave everything else alone. Our coolant does not generate pressure so its ok to stick with the stock pressure cap.
(Signed Tom Gondal)

I think I will go this route as well.
Thanks again Chief for your feedback.

chiefwej
06-23-2010, 12:35 PM
Update:
I contacted Evans Cooling Systems for cold climate, to see how viscous the NPG+ fluid could get at fridgid temperatures.
Here is my question:
Hello.
I currently have a 2003 BMW 530, and I am intrigued by your product (NPG+). My car runs at a high cooling system pressure and reading about your product, this might be answer to overcome cooling issues (plastic parts that develop cracks due to pressure and hot ***8211; cold fluctuations).
However, I live in a cold climate, and my main concern is the low temperature during winter months. The temperature sees lots of -20C (-4F), and a few days where it dips between -30C to -50C (-22F ***8211; 58F) ***8211; not that often though ***8211; a few days only. My question is: how viscous will the NPG+ fluid get, and can the waterpump handle/push it though the radiator if it gets that thick (if ever it gets thick)?

Thank you
And here is the answer I got:

Dorin***8230;***8230;..the NPG+ is good to -40 below zero. At temps below that it will start to get more viscous,like gear oil. In conditions that cold we do recommend letting the motor warm up and get the coolant thinned out so it can flow.
In a changeover for your car, all you***8217;re doing is a change of coolant, leave everything else alone. Our coolant does not generate pressure so it***8217;s ok to stick with the stock pressure cap.
(Signed Tom Gondal)

I think I will go this route as well.
Thanks again Chief for your feedback.

Good, you can be the test case for cold climates, while I'm the test case for hot climates ,111 F. (44 C ) here today). I recommend you look for a case (4 gallons) price on NPG+. That will give you 1+ gallons to keep in the trunk, just in case. Make very sure you drain ALL of the old coolant out before putting the NPG+ in. Any ??'s let me know.

doru
06-23-2010, 01:23 PM
Did you use that prep solution before, or you just drained it (I suppose from the engine-block)?

chiefwej
06-23-2010, 03:15 PM
Did you use that prep solution before, or you just drained it (I suppose from the engine-block)?
To fully drain the system I opened the drain on the bottom of the radiator, pulled the drain plugs on both sides of the engine block (remember mine is a V8), set the heater on high and turned the key on to drain the heater core, blew air through the cap opening to clear any left in the reservoir tank, and removed the lower hose to just make sure it was all drained. Left every thing open for a couple hours to be sure, then closed it all up and filled with NPG+. <!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

doru
06-23-2010, 03:17 PM
Thanks Chief

Orxan4ik
06-23-2010, 07:24 PM
thanks chief, im prolly gonna use this when i rebuild my cooling :thumbup:

chiefwej
06-28-2010, 12:52 PM
Evans NPG+ One-Month Update


Well it has been one month since I changed over to the NPG+. I have driven a little over 2,800 miles, including a one-thousand mile road trip with the local BMWCCA chapter. Local daytime temperatures have been running 100+ highs.

I have been constantly watching the coolant level, and continue checking regularly to see if there is ever any pressure in the system. No matter how hot the day or how hard I have run it (including some mountain climbs on the trip) there is never more than a couple pounds of pressure in the system. Squeeze the radiator hose and it has very little pressure, where it used to feel very tight, like tire pressure. I just get that same little psst when I open the cap. I***8217;ve taken to not really tightening the cap tight. It doesn***8217;t seem to make a difference, due to the O-ring design.

So far, the hot weather test is very uneventful. Everything seems perfectly normal, the Evans NPG+ works exactly as advertised, and I am very satisfied. I look forward to results of the cold weather testing this winter (to be done by Doru up in Calgary, Canada).

I will continue monitoring and providing regular updates. <!--EndFragment-->

PropellerHead
06-28-2010, 01:36 PM
Well it has been one month since I changed over to the NPG+. I have driven a little over 2,800 miles,:yikes: I haven't driven my E39 that much in 4 YEARS!

chiefwej
06-28-2010, 02:27 PM
:yikes: I haven't driven my E39 that much in 4 YEARS!

Get that damn thing out on the road!

PropellerHead
06-28-2010, 03:42 PM
Get that damn thing out on the road!Well, it HAS been for the last ten days or so. Getting the road warrior X5 all fixed up with alternator and intake boots and fender liners. All kinds of no fun $1200 fixes! :cry:

gtxragtop
06-28-2010, 06:09 PM
Evans NPG+ One-Month Update


Well it has been one month since I changed over to the NPG+. I have driven a little over 2,800 miles, including a one-thousand mile road trip with the local BMWCCA chapter. Local daytime temperatures have been running 100+ highs.

I have been constantly watching the coolant level, and continue checking regularly to see if there is ever any pressure in the system. No matter how hot the day or how hard I have run it (including some mountain climbs on the trip) there is never more than a couple pounds of pressure in the system. Squeeze the radiator hose and it has very little pressure, where it used to feel very tight, like tire pressure. I just get that same little psst when I open the cap. I've taken to not really tightening the cap tight. It doesn't seem to make a difference, due to the O-ring design.

So far, the hot weather test is very uneventful. Everything seems perfectly normal, the Evans NPG+ works exactly as advertised, and I am very satisfied. I look forward to results of the cold weather testing this winter (to be done by Doru up in Calgary, Canada).

I will continue monitoring and providing regular updates. <!--EndFragment-->

My son sent me a photo of the outside temp monitor on his M3.... 112F at noon in Tuscon. Yep, hot

ztom
07-02-2010, 10:41 PM
I just put in NPG+ also, works well. The temp needle if anything is ever-so-slightly on the cold side. A couple minutes after engine shut off, I can open the cap and no boil over, no or very little vapor pressure. I like the idea that the coolant system is not under a pressure that can bursts things or that tries to find a way to escape or get pushed into the cylinder or oil.

franka
07-04-2010, 01:19 PM
Success will be measured in years and/or miles of trouble free driving.

mrpumpk1n
07-04-2010, 02:55 PM
hmm i was wondering, can this also benefit people with slight cracked head or slightly bad head gaskets? since the coolant flow into the cylinder due to the pressure from the system, since this will keep the cooling system pressure at a minimum may be this can be a cheaper cure for a short term while they get the money for their rebuild. anyone with a blown head gasket wanna try? lol (or am i completely wrong in my theory here?)

franka
07-04-2010, 04:18 PM
hmm i was wondering, can this also benefit people with slight cracked head or slightly bad head gaskets? since the coolant flow into the cylinder due to the pressure from the system, since this will keep the cooling system pressure at a minimum may be this can be a cheaper cure for a short term while they get the money for their rebuild. anyone with a blown head gasket wanna try? lol (or am i completely wrong in my theory here?)



not gonna happen

franka
07-07-2010, 01:06 PM
hmm i was wondering, can this also benefit people with slight cracked head or slightly bad head gaskets? since the coolant flow into the cylinder due to the pressure from the system, since this will keep the cooling system pressure at a minimum may be this can be a cheaper cure for a short term while they get the money for their rebuild. anyone with a blown head gasket wanna try? lol (or am i completely wrong in my theory here?)



The pressure in a running cylinder will push the gasket out, ruining your plan.

mrpumpk1n
07-07-2010, 01:34 PM
lol oopse well i was just throwing an idea out there. btw, would it be recomended changing my coolant to nkg+? i love in nyc, and my cooling system is due for an overhaul. we dont really see way too cold temps around here, normally it doesnt even dip to the single digits.

chiefwej
07-07-2010, 02:34 PM
]lol oopse[/i] well i was just throwing an idea out there. btw, would it be recomended changing my coolant to nkg+? i love in nycc, and my cooling system is due for an overhaul. wedontt really see way too cold temps around here, normally itdoesntt even dip to the single digits.
Wow, the fact that you "love in NYC", doesn't mean much and I don't know what nkg+ is. (spark plugs?) If you are considering using Evans NPG+, you need to do a cooling system overhaul beforehand. It would be a shame to see $100 worth of coolant lost due to a small leak.

In the future try asking your questions in English. People will give better answers if they can understand the questions. There is a school somewhere that owes you a refund, or at very least an apology.

mrpumpk1n
07-07-2010, 05:08 PM
sorry about that I'm typing on the iPad and it's autocorrecting it to wrong stuff. I mentioned NYC to give an idea of the climate here and i was wondering if its okay to use that stuff after the cooling overhaul (based on the climate here). and next time try to not be so rude to people chief, you will be surprised how far a little bit of "niceness" will take you

chiefwej
07-07-2010, 06:42 PM
That was me being nice.

PropellerHead
07-07-2010, 09:55 PM
That was me being nice.:rofl: Easy, fellas.

dcotti
07-21-2010, 07:37 PM
Chief. How is the NPG working for you in this heat? Up here in the Phoenix area it hasn't dropped below 100 during the day for over a month. I was on my way home today, looking at my OBC read 115 and it got me to thinking of using the NPG when I do a mini cooling service in the next few months. Thanks.

ProRail
07-21-2010, 07:55 PM
:yikes: I haven't driven my E39 that much in 4 YEARS!

I have no words for this. Why haven't the BMW police seized your vehicle?

chiefwej
07-21-2010, 08:25 PM
Chief. How is the NPG working for you in this heat? Up here in the Phoenix area it hasn't dropped below 100 during the day for over a month. I was on my way home today, looking at my OBC read 115 and it got me to thinking of using the NPG when I do a mini cooling service in the next few months. Thanks.
Similar temps here (but about 5-10 degrees cooler). No problems with the NPG+, so far it has worked exactly as advertised.

ztom
07-22-2010, 11:55 PM
hmm i was wondering, can this also benefit people with slight cracked head or slightly bad head gaskets? since the coolant flow into the cylinder due to the pressure from the system, since this will keep the cooling system pressure at a minimum may be this can be a cheaper cure for a short term while they get the money for their rebuild. anyone with a blown head gasket wanna try? lol (or am i completely wrong in my theory here?)


I found that it does work. I bought a 528i project car with a known leaking head. When overnight after a drive the coolant pressure with engine off would push coolant into a cylinder. Until I find time to replace the head (have done one on another car), I put in NPG+ and the car is now working fine.

Update - The NPG+ helped but not completely. I still get combustion gases pushed into the coolant which pressurizes the system even though the NPG+ would otherwise give a lower pressure condition. In the morning within a minute after start I can feel the upper hose pressurized, whereas the coolant has not gotten hot enough to be contributing pressure. But NPG+ is still helpful in not boiling and in allowing the pressure to come down faster when the car cools off, thereby having less coolant escape. Also in my case I know that when the car starts to overheat, it's due to combustion gas pushing into the coolant at the head, pushing coolant out of the head. I found that changing to a brass bleed screw for the one on the thermostat housing is essential because unlike the plastic one, it can be turned when hot. When the car overheats I can shut off the engine and shortly afterward, bleed that screw, and the engine temp returns to normal. If I bleed periodically (once a week?) it doesn't overheat. This is not ideal but suffices until I have time to fix the head.

mrpumpk1n
07-23-2010, 08:44 PM
I found that it does work. I bought a 528i project car with a known leaking head. When overnight after a drive the coolant pressure with engine off would push coolant into a cylinder. Until I find time to replace the head (have done one on another car), I put in NPG+ and the car is now working fine.

yay! one part of the theory does indeed work. however, arent you getting oil in coolant while the car runs? since there is higher pressure from the engine than the cooling system. :dunno:

mishaparem
08-03-2010, 06:06 PM
Actually I was completely stoked until someone mentioned the head gasket. If the m52 is meant to run a pressurized coolant system, would using a 0-pressure system cause the car to blow a head gasket faster by theory of increased pressure difference = more stress = higher chance of failure?

As it stands, I have a project car that I just bought, and it has two issues - 1) oil leak 2) overheat. I'm pretty sure the overheat is caused by air bubbles, because I found a busted coolant hose when I was trying to fix the oil leak. I replaced the coolant hose, but I'm 99% sure, there is a bubble in the system because 1) coolant level in tank never went down, and 2) I did not fill the hose up before connecting it. I'm waiting until I fix the oil leak until I try to fix the coolant issue.

pleiades
08-10-2010, 07:39 PM
Quite an interesting thread. I'm curious about the -actual- average pressure in a stock cooling system with a 50/50 mix of the standard stuff. I know the e39s typically have 30psi caps on their expansion tanks but AFAIK that's simply the rated pressure of the cap, doesn't mean the system will get that high, but rather that the cap will act as a relief valve at that point (if something else doesn't behave that way beforehand). My understanding (possibly wrong I know...) is that you can also increase the ratio of coolant to water to increase the boiling point, though I've not tried that.

I see no reason not to change over to this coolant.

adam98540
08-10-2010, 09:00 PM
Subscribed.

Interesting stuff. Curious to see what everyone thinks of potential accelerated head gasket failure mentioned by mishaparem.

pleiades
08-10-2010, 09:09 PM
I'm not a trained automotive engineer so my opinion is worth what you pay for it here, nothing.

That disclaimer aside...... I think head gasket failures are due generally to warped blocks/heads, not to the gaskets themselves. The pressure applied to a head gasket from inside a cylinder during a compression or combustion stroke and the pressure exerted from outside the cylinder by the pressurized coolant flowing through the cooling chambers is infinitesimally small compared to the pressure on the gasket as sandwiched between the bolted down block and cylinder head. If the block/head warps or cracks, you have problems but not because of a gasket that failed due to some differential in combustion chamber/coolant chamber pressures.

So, I suppose the question I have is, how good is the Evans stuff as a coolant and keeping the engine cool enough not to warp?

My 0.00000000000000002 cent and waiting to be shown (with documented evidence) how silly my opinion is.

adam98540
08-10-2010, 09:17 PM
I'm not a trained automotive engineer so my opinion is worth what you pay for it here, nothing.

That disclaimer aside...... I think head gasket failures are due generally to warped blocks/heads, not to the gaskets themselves. The pressure applied to a head gasket from inside a cylinder during a compression or combustion stroke and the pressure exerted from outside the cylinder by the pressurized coolant flowing through the cooling chambers is infinitesimally small compared to the pressure on the gasket as sandwiched between the bolted down block and cylinder head. If the block/head warps or cracks, you have problems but not because of a gasket that failed due to some differential in combustion chamber/coolant chamber pressures.

So, I suppose the question I have is, how good is the Evans stuff as a coolant and keeping the engine cool enough not to warp?

My 0.00000000000000002 cent and waiting to be shown (with documented evidence) how silly my opinion is.

No idea about your theory on head gaskets, but wyowolf reports a drop in coolant temperature of about 2 degrees. Does that suggest a cooler running engine, or does it not work that way? Would we need an actual oil temp sensor (sadly missing in non Ms) to judge engine heat?

Chiefwej - have you noticed any change in your coolant temp as reported through the OBC?

pleiades
08-10-2010, 09:22 PM
I'm still wondering about core engine temp; is the engine itself running cooler? Hope that question makes some kind of sense...... Ah wait, oil temp, that should work. Somewhere in the unlocked cluster there's a real-time test....

adam98540
08-11-2010, 07:31 PM
I'm still wondering about core engine temp; is the engine itself running cooler? Hope that question makes some kind of sense...... Ah wait, oil temp, that should work. Somewhere in the unlocked cluster there's a real-time test....

There is a test for it, but only the M5 has an oil temp sensor to report data. Sadly, on non M cars that test is just a placeholder.

bowtie
08-12-2010, 07:30 AM
:rofl: I don't believe the lack of coolant pressure will accelerate head gasket problems...

aioros
08-12-2010, 11:33 AM
Change does not come easy. It takes a great deal of energy to change the mind that something is better, even though what you have has been proven not good.
If this NPG+ is what it promises to be, Evans should be getting ready to increase production.
I'm in for it.

Papabear426
08-12-2010, 10:11 PM
Had the upper-neck crack in my '01 530 Monday ... it was a beautiful 103F here in STL, and I just found the leak tonight. I've only put 1,800 miles on since purchase Memorial Day at 129K, but knew going in I'd be doing a complete overhaul (hoped to make it till fall). From what I'm getting in this thread, after new rad/tank/hoses, plus the fan/clutch, I think I'll go with a metal impeller WP and fill-er-up w/ NPG+.

Thanks for all the info ... I'm game.

Radian
08-21-2010, 03:37 PM
Sorry for the bitterness in advance:mad:..just got done with a cylinder head & head gasket replacement on my '91 535i, most of which I'll cover in a lengthy write-up over in the E34 section.

The failure of the car at the time was ultimately due to it's fabulous cooling system.

Never-the-less, repairs have been made. The car is back to serviceable condition and is running just fine with NPG+ coolant. No more overheating, no more creeping gauge, no more chugging along on 5 cylinders every now and then, no more eye-opening random chunks of corrosion and gasket floating around in the reservoir, no more swampy coolant, no more sweet smell'n exhaust, no more fog-machine syndrome at morning startup, no more exploding cooling system parts.

There is a serious amount of arm-chair quarterbacking going on in this thread. The bottom line: NPG+ works just fine

For all the thinking that goes on, in all the nuggets around here, has no one given thought that Evan's would perhaps be out of business if their coolant didn't work? Would Chief or I (or several thousand others) be driving around with a big $h!t-grin on our faces if it didn't work? No one is shoving it down our throats. If you use it, good, great, GRAND! If you haven't...please, save us the speculation.

In about five years I'll have to change hoses and belts and water pump just the same. It isn't some magic elixir that defeats the need for, or wear and tear of a functioning coolant system. It does however significantly reduce the coolant system component stress and corrosion leading to reduced probability of catastrophic (pressure or corrosion-related) failure between time-change part intervals. The price of admission is well worth it for the piece of mind IMHO. It's 2010* , and I'm done farting around with embarrassing coolant system failures.

* Aren't we supposed to have floating, self-powered RipStiks by now?

ztom
08-21-2010, 04:52 PM
Because it doesn't boil over, I found that (with eye protection and gloves just to be safe) I can open the expansion tank and bleed screws after a drive. I let it sit overnight like this a couple times and I think it allows any residual water to evaporate and leave the system so the coolant pressure is very low now. I noticed that the temp gauge needle is slightly to the cool side, which I like because if it ever went to middle it's a early warning sign to me that something's not right. In my project car with the head leak that has NPG+ now, I put in a tube of dry powder Bars leak by mixing it in a empty pint disposable water bottle and NPG+, then used a funnel and poured it into the bleed screw hold for the tstat housing. I think it helped reduce the leak. Again, I still plan to fix the head in time.

Papabear426
08-21-2010, 08:29 PM
Just finished cooling system overhaul today, went with the Stewart pump & emptied the system for NPG+. So far, two around-town test drives and needle is standing at 12 o'clock. Gotta try this evaporative method for trace water, I was only able to fill about 9.5L into what specs at 10.5L capacity--but the minute pressure after operating temp still tells me the water must be at a minimum. I did everything, key w/ heater open, engine drain, hose drain, I even stuck up my wet-vac up to the WP, t-stat & heater hoses when it was all open. Maybe bleeding cycles will let me get another liter in it.

Radian
08-21-2010, 11:56 PM
So far, two around-town test drives and needle is standing at 12 o'clock... \


That's where mine stays too with the stock temp thermostat in there. It's been tropical this summer here in Cheeseland (not as bad as STL, thank goodness!) with temps frequently hovering in the low 90's. With the A/C on and idling at the stoplights after an interstate exit, the temp needle never moves from 12 o'clock.

FYI:

Their prep fluid is designed exclusively for systems that may leave a good tech with doubt regarding total water evacuation. If you're certain you've got every last drop out after a water flush (pulling hoses on a warm motor, tipping out the radiator, and blowing out the heater core(s) for example), then there's no need for it. This process can be gravy on some vehicles. On the other hand, for a crow's nest of plumbing that beguiles even the most tenacious mechanic or engines that have terribly accessible drain ports, the prep fluid is the right way to go.

..and for those cold weather worry-warts:

No engineer was ever dumb enough to allow a positive displacement pump in an automotive coolant system. So say it is below -40 F outside and you're certain your coolant is snot, the worst that'll happen is the pump will stall. No, it won't stop rotating and nothing will break. You have a ~2.5" metal impeller pump* boot strapped to a minimum 1 hp motor (the starter), trust me, it's gonna turn over. It just won't pump anything until the fluid thins out.

* However, some engineers have been dumb enough to insist on plastic impellers on coolant pumps thus effectively creating a common point source failure for some recent engines. If you know your car has one, and it's not a NorthStar V8, change it out at your earliest convenience.

MatWiz
08-22-2010, 01:18 PM
.....
No engineer was ever dumb enough to allow a positive displacement pump in an automotive coolant system. So say it is below -40 F outside and you're certain your coolant is snot, the worst that'll happen is the pump will stall. No, it won't stop rotating and nothing will break. You have a ~2.5" metal impeller pump* boot strapped to a minimum 1 hp motor (the starter), trust me, it's gonna turn over. It just won't pump anything until the fluid thins out.
...
What's that?

mw

Radian
08-22-2010, 02:00 PM
What's that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pump

Section 1.1

Also look at the differences listed in the Velocity pump section. That'll get you in the ball park.

robertobaggio20
08-24-2010, 08:58 AM
Has anyone tried to adjust the ecu maps, thermostat, engine tuning and clutch fan parameters to adapt to a higher running temperature, after installing the NPG+ ? How did that change things? Was there higher power? Better economy? Can the m52 engine run safely at a higher temperature? If so, how high ?

It seems the ability to run the system at higher operating temperatures is a second important benefit to a zero pressure coolant installation. However, it is clearly more complicated. Evans' website seems to sell resistors etc that will enable the engine to be tuned to higher temperature settings. Has anyone tried that? Thanks.

Mack
08-24-2010, 09:53 AM
Has anyone tried to adjust the ecu maps, thermostat, engine tuning and clutch fan parameters to adapt to a higher running temperature, after installing the NPG+ ? How did that change things? Was there higher power? Better economy? Can the m52 engine run safely at a higher temperature? If so, how high ?

It seems the ability to run the system at higher operating temperatures is a second important benefit to a zero pressure coolant installation. However, it is clearly more complicated. Evans' website seems to sell resistors etc that will enable the engine to be tuned to higher temperature settings. Has anyone tried that? Thanks.

So you want to run your engine at an even HIGHER temp than what is already standard for the system? And why??

Radian
08-24-2010, 10:21 AM
Evans' website seems to sell resistors etc that will enable the engine to be tuned to higher temperature settings.

Could you please furnish a link, for the thread, that directly references this claim?

robertobaggio20
08-24-2010, 11:29 AM
So you want to run your engine at an even HIGHER temp than what is already standard for the system? And why??

I've read that higher temperatures in the combustion chamber result in higher thermal combustion efficiency.

Obviously, this has to be carefully balanced against the prevention of knocking.

Radian asked for a link that talks about saving fuel as another benefit to zero pressure cooling systems. This one is exhaustive :

http://www.evanscooling.com/fuel-efficiency/

I know they reference diesel trucks there but the basic principle would apply to gasoline engines too, would they not? Or am I wrong here? Please enlighten me.

The evans cooling website refers to selling resistors somewhere.

Rgds, Roberto

chiefwej
08-24-2010, 12:59 PM
The references are to running diesel truck fleet engines at higher temps. The cooling fans (which can use 50 or 75 HP) have to run less and fuel economy can increase by a few %. For you or me, gaining 2% or 3% better mileage may not mean much, but for a trucking company that spends millions on fuel, that can be a HUGE savings.

pleiades
08-30-2010, 02:02 PM
Although I still worry about potential harm to the stock WP (Hepu) I think this just has to be my next mod, so much peace of mind distilled into a couple gallons. Still debating whether to use NPG-R instead of NPG+. I'm in a town that rarely gets below freezing in the winter, and down to maybe 15F at its coldest. And I have a Subaru if I should ever -have- to drive over a wintertime mountain pass (I'm MS Delta-bred, no interest in slippery inclines or winter sports). NPG-R sounds like it has certain benefits (lower viscosity and higher heat transfer while retaining that high boiling point...). Is a lower-pressure exp. tank cap also a good idea to use with this setup, or moot?

chiefwej
08-30-2010, 02:14 PM
Cap makes no difference. There isn't any pressure in there anyway. I would NOT use NPG-R in a street car. It is designed for race car use, and doesn't have the same corrosion preventive package and you are supposed to drain it at the end of each race season. NPG+ is the product designed for street car use. If you have any doubts contact Evans for advice on their products.

pleiades
08-30-2010, 02:23 PM
Recommended drain cycle is listed as every-other-year for street performance cars, Evans recommends seasonal change for racing engines only. The Evans website flyer explains that NPGR has the additive package and touts all the products as corrosion-free.

Time for me to quit typing and buy some of this stuff. Appreciate that chief and others have done some of the test-piloting for us.

------------------

Follow-up....

I wrote evanscooling and got the following reply. (All I need to do now is find a relatively local source for this stuff. Shipping cost can be hefty.)

"....we have many customers using our NPG+ in their BMW***8217;s. I would suggest using that instead of the R. The pump can handle it and the difference between them in viscosity is minimal. The NPG+ is about the same viscosity as 10 wt oil, the R is about the same as straight antifreeze out of the jug. Biggest thing in doing this motor is getting all the water out, not the viscosity...."

doru
09-03-2010, 07:55 AM
I made my mind up, and I will go with the NPG+ very soon - before the frost will hit.
However I have a question: being a zero pressure, how would you spot a leak (like the tiny ones)? Also, how would you make sure you have evrything tight after changing all the hoses. This is because there is no pressure, and prolly it's very hard to notice a leak. I don't want to be the Devil's advocate, I just want to have everything covered.

jbrovage
09-03-2010, 08:04 AM
I don't remember seeing this in the thread, but i had a concern about the "thickness" of the coolant at low temperatures. I thought there was a known weakness in the I6's (not mine) that was from an inferior, composite pump impeller. Thicker coolant+weak impeller + cold weather = no leaks, but no cooling, right?

Maybe everyone has already replaced their pumps with metal impeller'ed ones. :shrug These are BMWs, after all. (my 94 grand marq's water pump lasted 130k miles)

Papabear426
09-04-2010, 08:32 PM
Maybe everyone has already replaced their pumps with metal impeller'ed ones.

I just did this conversion and bought the Stewart metal-impeller, not only for general peace of mind for lifetime service, but for the additional comfort that this slightly thicker coolant won't break it. About a $100 premium over all the others, but seems worth it for the purported 20% more flow. Evans techs tell me the viscosity does not change until you reach the -40F range, and I'll never see that around here.

Two weeks and behavior is as billed; slight 'pfft' opening the cap, maybe 2-3#'s of pressure at op temp.

chiefwej
09-04-2010, 09:11 PM
I made my mind up, and I will go with the NPG+ very soon - before the frost will hit.
However I have a question: being a zero pressure, how would you spot a leak (like the tiny ones)? Also, how would you make sure you have evrything tight after changing all the hoses. This is because there is no pressure, and prolly it's very hard to notice a leak. I don't want to be the Devil's advocate, I just want to have everything covered.
No pressure, no leak, no problem. If you wanted to "test" the system for leaks there is a pump that fits on the cap fitting and can pressurize the system to look for leaks. Any independent shop should have one.

gent99
09-05-2010, 03:03 PM
Great thread...glad you are keeping us updated on this product.

I recently overhauled my cooling system and I did make a couple phone calls with the idea of dropping $150 on a carton (4 gal) of this stuff. I found a guy in San Francisco carrying it but he wasn't open for the Labor Day weekend so....

I went 100k before finding a pinhole leak and replaced everything last weekend. Theoretcially, I figured it ought to last another 100k and I'm likely to not have the car for the odometer to turn 200k so that and not having the product when I wanted it convinced me to stick with the BMW blue.

aflo936
10-19-2010, 02:48 PM
Guys this is all great news for me. Hearing all this great info on the coolant system. My expansion tank cracked on my 97 528I. Like to broke my heart. That was the only thing I did not change in the coolant system. I changed out everything thing else. Now I'm paying for it. I have 133,00 on mine. Still looks great. Once I put on the new expansion tank, fill it up and bleed the air she should be good to go.

franka
10-19-2010, 06:26 PM
The OEM pressure system has more cooling capacity than a comparable none pressure system, all other details being equal.

I wonder what the cooling capacity of the NPG, no pressure system is??? :dunno:

chiefwej
10-19-2010, 08:50 PM
The OEM pressure system has more cooling capacity than a comparable none pressure system, all other details being equal.

I wonder what the cooling capacity of the NPG, no pressure system is??? :dunno:
No coolant (NPG, or traditional mix) will have the latent heat capacity of pure water. But as previously discussed the micro-boiling of liquids insulates the surface and prevents good heat transfer. The NPG with it's very (375) high boil point does not have that problem. I have run it in my radiator through one of the hottest summers we have had here in a desert, with the only noticeable change being a LOWER core temperature according to the OBC system.

mrpumpk1n
10-19-2010, 10:31 PM
is it possible that at some points the engine film boils regular coolant?

A Trini
10-20-2010, 01:03 AM
I'm going to have to find out how well the NPG+ will hold up in Alaska.
We definately have days well below -40C...brrrrr

franka
10-20-2010, 10:24 AM
Loosing the NPG coolant thru any number of ways, like a broken water pump and such, would be my biggest worry.

chiefwej
10-20-2010, 12:34 PM
If you drain it before a repair, you can put it back in. If you lose it, you are out an additional $50 or so over BMW coolant. Not a deal-breaker for me.

Papabear426
10-20-2010, 05:29 PM
Full 2 months on NPG+, still doing great. Scratching my head a little on the capacity I filled; without re-researching right now, I'm recalling this is a 10.8L system, I really cleaned out all the water and all the new parts were dry when I filled. By what's gone from the jugs, I think I only put about 9.8L back in, and I think I'm about .3-.5L too full (expected bleeding to bring it down, but it hasn't). Had it tested in case there was a liter of water I didn't get, H2O content is below 2%. Any thoughts?

chiefwej
10-20-2010, 07:31 PM
If I remember correctly, Evans says remaining water must be less than 4%.

ztom
10-20-2010, 09:04 PM
I think that if you leave the cap off overnight after a drive the water tends to evaporates out, seemed to work for me.

Papabear426
10-20-2010, 09:26 PM
Yep, I did the evap method as previously posted suggestion, when it didn't seem to reduce volume, I went for the water test. Very content with the <2% result, just can't resolve in my mind why more coolant won't fit ... unless there's a real air pocket somewhere. To chase that, I've run w/ heater core open multiple days, bled, etc. May just be a puzzle, everything is working fine, so I don't intend to mess with it further.

chiefwej
10-20-2010, 11:05 PM
I'm going to have to find out how well the NPG+ will hold up in Alaska.
We definately have days well below -40C...brrrrr
What do you normally use for coolant? I don't know of anything that is rated below -40C, (which is interestingly also -40F). I would think when you get colder than that, if you don't have a block heater you're SOL.

A Trini
10-21-2010, 03:09 AM
I have always been into vws and audis. This is my first bimmer and have no idea what is currently in it but the car has been in Alaska all its life (and wont be driven in the winter anymore, hopefully).
I usually use G12 vw/audi coolant from the dealership.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs007.snc4/33722_10150284877125207_512520206_15011089_8280959 _n.jpg

never had a freeze up.
But I'm very interested in the NPG+ not only for my 540 but also mainly for my corrado (they run super hot and build quite a bit of pressure)

doru
11-05-2010, 02:33 PM
Hello Chief.
Any updates on your car? I take it everything runs fine.
I am getting ready to bite the bullet. When you drained the block, were the bolts easy to take of or slightly seized? Did you use new washers?
The problem we M54 owners have, it seems the thermostat is failing in the open position, so I might need to buy a catch pan just for this chore alone, so I don't lose all the NPG+ when changing the thermostat (3 thermostats in 84 k miles, all failed in stuck open position). Zionsville have 2 aftermarked mechanical t-stats, but they are ridiculously expensive.
Any suggestions for a thorough drain? I am thinking:
Car on jackstands, front slightly higher
Key in pos II, heat at max, engine off
Open radiator petcock and drain
Open block drain
Start removing all the parts/replace cooling parts.
At this stage, the block, heater core and everything else should be void of old cooling?
Anything I missed?

chiefwej
11-05-2010, 09:33 PM
There have been no updates because there have been no issues to report. The NPG+ has performed exactly as advertised here in the middle of the Sonora Desert through one of the hottest summers on record. From May (when I put the NPG+ in) until last month it has been over 100 F. every day. I driven the car hard, and had it to mountain tops and the floor of the desert......no problems, no drama. no matter how hot the day or how hard I ran the car, anytime I open the cap I get nothing more than a little "psst" sound. No pressure = no problems.

Your plan for draining sounds more thorough than what I did.

To fully drain the system I opened the drain on the bottom of the radiator, pulled the drain plugs on both sides of the engine block (remember mine is a V8), set the heater on high and turned the key on to drain the heater core, blew air through the cap opening to clear any left in the reservoir tank, and removed the lower hose to just make sure it was all drained. Left every thing open for a couple hours to be sure, then closed it all up and filled with NPG+._

I (along with many others on the forum) are eagerly looking forward to your reports on the winter performance of NPG+.

edmonem
11-05-2010, 09:53 PM
I picked up 3 gallons of this stuff...I figure with the extras I can convert my civics coolant also. I ordered from the Evans company, and they were nice enough to refer me to a closer store in Cali since the shipping here to Hawaii would have killed my bank account.I bought it from Mooneyes in Cali. Very good customer service and it was delivered really fast. I prolly won't add this in until I pick up a high flow water pump and new cooling system parts.

haolibird
11-05-2010, 10:11 PM
I have been running NPG for over a year, and I too have had no issues.

A good decision for the well being of your car.

Aloha

gtxragtop
11-06-2010, 03:52 AM
Hello Chief.
Any updates on your car? I take it everything runs fine.
I am getting ready to bite the bullet. When you drained the block, were the bolts easy to take of or slightly seized? Did you use new washers?
The problem we M54 owners have, it seems the thermostat is failing in the open position, so I might need to buy a catch pan just for this chore alone, so I don't lose all the NPG+ when changing the thermostat (3 thermostats in 84 k miles, all failed in stuck open position). Zionsville have 2 aftermarked mechanical t-stats, but they are ridiculously expensive.
Any suggestions for a thorough drain? I am thinking:
Car on jackstands, front slightly higher
Key in pos II, heat at max, engine off
Open radiator petcock and drain
Open block drain
Start removing all the parts/replace cooling parts.
At this stage, the block, heater core and everything else should be void of old cooling?
Anything I missed?

I'm very curious how the NPG+ works for you given that you are in the "cold zone" up in Canada. I drained my block to when I did a cooling system overhaul. The block drains were a little stuck but once cracked, the came out fine. I can't comment on how much coolant was left in the system after draining given that I put BMW coolant back in.

adjmcloon
11-06-2010, 08:02 AM
Does anyone have a link or info on cooling system capacity for the various engines? I have an m52tu (99 528it)

Westech
12-19-2010, 01:38 AM
Well, I decided that if I run a zero pressure cooling system, I may not have to do that next cooling system overhaul. No pressure, no exploding radiator.

So I ordered a case of Evans NPG+ waterless coolant. Not cheap at about $120, but if it saves an overhaul............... The case was 4 gallons. It took 12 liters (or about 2 3/4 gallons) to fill the system. That leaves over a gallon for top-ups, since you can't add water or any other kind of coolant with Evans.

I fully drained the system, radiator, lower hose, block drains, and ran the heater pump to get it out of there. I must have got it all because Bentley says it holds 12 liters and that is exactly what I got in it. So everything must have been out and there can't be any air trapped in there. After the NPG+ fill I changed the 2 bar cap for a 1.4 bar one.

With a boiling point of 375 degrees there should never be any pressure in the system now.

Here's the situation: Just bought a 2003 E39 525i, automatic (yeah, I know) 75,xxx miles. good condition, no obvious flaws or problems. Previous owner, at 73,xxx miles, replaced the water pump, thermostat & housing, drive belt, tensioners, and expansion tank plus a coolant flush with BMW coolant. Visual inspection and receipts confirm this.
Based on what I've read in this thread I plan to finish the process by replacing the radiator, upper/lower hoses plus clamps, fan & fan clutch fill the system with NPG+.
I would hope that, by doing the above, I can cross the cooling system off my list of eminent nightmares.
My thought process is this: Everything is new, the system is now NOT under 2 bars of pressure and the fan won't explode.
What have I missed?
Thank you in advance.....

bluebee
12-19-2010, 04:56 AM
Does anyone have a link or info on cooling system capacity for the various engines? I have an m52tu (99 528it)

It's in the bestlinks thread.
- Coolant, for engine, automatic transmission, power steering, and AC evaporator cooling (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461165))

doru
02-19-2011, 08:30 AM
So I left a jug of NPG+ outside for a day. Last night it was -30C. Opened the jug this morning to see how the stuff looks. It's definitely thicker than water. It looked to me like the 0-30 Castrol I'm using. Maybe a tad thinner.
Now I am 100% sure I will use this stuff as soon as the temperatures will allow. Doing a cooling overhaul now is insane.

So Chief, here is the answer for the cold climate. My car will be always garaged, but in case she will sleep outside one cold night, the NPG+ is not that thick to impeach the flow. Also I am switching to the Stewart WP which is beefier and allows for more flow.

chiefwej
02-19-2011, 01:35 PM
If it ever gets to -30 here NPG will be the least of my problems! I'll be packed up and moved to a warmer climate. It was 80F (27C) yesterday, cloudy and only 75F (24C) today.

I used to live north of Chicago, and remember what it was like one night when it got to -36F. I don't ever want that climate again.

Glad to hear that the NPG is going to work for you. I talked to Evans recently and they said they are getting the NPG-R product certified for street use and will be re labeling it as a universal product to replace both the + and the R products. They said the only real difference is that the R is a lower viscosity, which should be better for cold weather use. You may want to give them a call before ordering your coolant.

doru
02-19-2011, 02:37 PM
I already have it since last November, but it cooled down so much, that I had to postpone my project. I am sure it will be OK with the NPG+

Thanks Chief

pleiades
03-12-2011, 11:31 AM
If it ever gets to -30 here NPG will be the least of my problems! I'll be packed up and moved to a warmer climate. It was 80F (27C) yesterday, cloudy and only 75F (24C) today.

I used to live north of Chicago, and remember what it was like one night when it got to -36F. I don't ever want that climate again.

Glad to hear that the NPG is going to work for you. I talked to Evans recently and they said they are getting the NPG-R product certified for street use and will be re labeling it as a universal product to replace both the + and the R products. They said the only real difference is that the R is a lower viscosity, which should be better for cold weather use. You may want to give them a call before ordering your coolant.

Chief, were you to do it all over again, would you consider using the NPG-R version?

franka
03-12-2011, 12:11 PM
The system still has pressure in it to move the fluid. The 'fluid' pump creates the pressure. No pressure and the water or fluid would not move.

So technically its not a zero pressure system. It just doesn't have the additional pressure that raises the boiling point of a typical coolant and keeps the coolant in touch with the container's passages surfaces.

chiefwej
03-12-2011, 01:58 PM
Chief, were you to do it all over again, would you consider using the NPG-R version?

Since the only real difference (per Evans) is the viscosity of the R product is lower, in a hot climate it makes little difference, in fact the + may be preferable. But in cold weather, low viscosity could be advantageous.

The system still has pressure in it to move the fluid. The 'fluid' pump creates the pressure. No pressure and the water or fluid would not move.

So technically its not a zero pressure system. It just doesn't have the additional pressure that raises the boiling point of a typical coolant and keeps the coolant in touch with the container's passages surfaces.

I have removed the top "O" ring on my cap, so I can assure you that there is no pressure in my radiator or expansion tank. Yes, liquids flow due to pressure differentials. But that only means that some areas of the system are very slightly above atmospheric pressure, while other areas are BELOW. The water pump creates a very slight pressure on the output side while producing an equal vacuum on the other side. This results in fluid movement, but does not produce any internal pressure in the system.

bobdmac
03-12-2011, 03:14 PM
I have removed the top "O" ring on my cap, so I can assure you that there is no pressure in my radiator or expansion tank. Yes, liquids flow due to pressure differentials. But that only means that some areas of the system are very slightly above atmospheric pressure, while other areas are BELOW. The water pump creates a very slight pressure on the output side while producing an equal vacuum on the other side. This results in fluid movement, but does not produce any internal pressure in the system.

Good explanation of "zero pressure."

franka
03-13-2011, 10:33 AM
Yes, liquids flow due to pressure differentials. But that only means that some areas of the system are very slightly above atmospheric pressure, while other areas are BELOW. The water pump creates a very slight pressure on the output side while producing an equal vacuum on the other side. This results in fluid movement, but does not produce any internal pressure in the system.

I am not advocating OEM or NPG coolant. I'm only pointing out that there is still pressure in the engine when NPG is used and that it is more than 'very slightly above atmospheric pressure'. As long as there is pressure in the engine no portions will ever be below atmospheric.

The engine passages are very complex, especially in the head. They are small in many places, with 90 degree turns, and the walls are 'as cast' and therefore not smooth. So it takes a good amount of pressure to move the coolant thru them. Way more than just slightly above 1.0 atmosphere, as I prove below. And as the volume or flow is increased, due to increasing rpm, the pressure also increases to move more volume.

Electric water pumps, to replace the engine driven pump, are said to save 20 to as much as 25 hp, on strong V8s at full rpm. Think of the pressure and the volume that comes from a stand alone pump of only 3-5 hp. Then imagine a 10-20 hp water pump and the pressure/volume it can put out.

There are two basic sources of pressure in the cooling system. Please don't confuse the reqd circulating pressure that is generated by the water pump with the additional pressure that is put on the OEM system by the radiator cap, to raise the boiling point. Its only the additional, anti-boiling, pressure that is being reduced.

I don't know, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the viscosity of the NPG is, significantly, or at least noticably, higher than the OEM coolant. Since the pump still runs at the same (various) rpms, regardless of coolant, it follows that the pressure produced is even greater with NPG than with OEM coolant.

So for those that haven't yet purchased the NPG stuff, it would make sense to choose the lower viscosity one, in all cases.

bobdmac
03-13-2011, 11:49 AM
Franka, what you say makes sense, but it might also fall into the category of nitpicking. I think the "zero pressure" terminology, at least on this board, is simply shorthand for a system that won't vaporize at atmospheric pressure.

sferley
03-13-2011, 12:20 PM
I have been following this thread since the beginning and a lot of points are really attractive in going with NPG (+ or R), such as no corrosion in the radiator, lower pressure (which is key for the expansion tank, etc not to self destruct).
However it does leave some points to wonder, since the thermostat is reporting a cooler temperature in the fluid, does that mean it doesn't do as good of a job actually transferring the heat from the engine block to the fluid? This would be a hugh point as i don't feel like replacing head gaskets, etc due to the engine over heating. We already know that the E39 V8's are running way to hot, and allowing any heat to remain would be detrimental to its health.
It could be cool and be very conclusive, if someone had a Infrared Thermo-imaging camera that could take pictures of before the coolant was replaced with NPG and after on the same car. Someone did the engine check on benzworld this way: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163-m-class/1571678-infrared-pics-ml430.html

Also caring a little bit about the environmental side of this, never having seen the MSDS sheets of NPG, how bad is it environmentally compared to regular BMW G48 coolant. Also any other corrosion, explosion warnings on the jugs we should be aware of? We know its supposed to be save with Aluminum, but what about the rubber hoses. Don't want to fix one side of the problem, just to create another one, somewhere else.

chiefwej
03-13-2011, 06:08 PM
Frank,
Argue this one as long as you wish, but I was running a cap that held 2 bar pressure (29.007547601 psi). I have removed the top "O"ring, so that in now holds NO PRESSURE WHATSOEVER! So that pressure has been totally eliminated. I can squeeze the radiator hose, engine hot or cold, running or not and it is always soft, no noticeable pressure. Can anyone running traditional coolant say that?

The water pump pushes coolant into the engine and draws it away from the radiator. I don't think of the incidental pressure from the flow of coolant will cause any damage inside the block, and in any case it has been reduced by some 20+ psi from what it was before the change.

franka
03-13-2011, 07:20 PM
Frank,
Argue this one as long as you wish, but I was running a cap that held 2 bar pressure (29.007547601 psi). I have removed the top "O"ring, so that in now holds NO PRESSURE WHATSOEVER! So that pressure has been totally eliminated. I can squeeze the radiator hose, engine hot or cold, running or not and it is always soft, no noticeable pressure. Can anyone running traditional coolant say that?

The water pump pushes coolant into the engine and draws it away from the radiator. I don't think of the incidental pressure from the flow of coolant will cause any damage inside the block, and in any case it has been reduced by some 20+ psi from what it was before the change.

You removed one of the two pressure sources. You have, in essence, removed the radiator cap and in so doing removed the pressure in the hoses. That will leave the hoses soft.

The other pressure source is the pump and it is still operating, generating pressure on the outlet side to move the coolant thru the engine.

The coolant doesn't move by itself. It moves by the pressure the pump develops. And that requires hp. By substituting an electric pump the high performance industry saves that hp as previously stated.

If, as you claim, there is no pressure then one could simply remove the pump. If this was possible the OEMs and high performance industry would have been doing so long ago.

chiefwej
03-13-2011, 07:42 PM
OK I have removed all pressure from the radiator, expansion tank, hoses and other failure areas of the system. BTW any pump in a liquid that produces positive pressure on the output side must by definition produce an equal negative pressure at the input side. So the water pump in pumping into the block, is actually reducing the pressure in the various failure prone components.

doru
03-14-2011, 09:14 AM
About Evans NPG+ from another forum (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=99933) (which should be called why use NPG+):


"Why shouldn***8217;t everyone use Evan***8217;s NPG+ coolant?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don***8217;t want to start an argument about the best coolant. I simply want to explain why I think there is no good choice in coolant compared to Evan***8217;s NPG+. It is completely different from traditional antifreeze, and I***8217;m seeing nothing but benefits from the literature. I know this is a general concept, but I drive a 3rd Gen, and I***8217;m most interested in comments from other 3rd Gen owners.

I just ordered some Evan***8217;s NPG+ coolant after deciding to switch to it rather than a traditional antifreeze/water mix. With Evan***8217;s NPG+ you do not add water to the coolant, it***8217;s all coolant.

I started thinking about overheating and the components of the cooling system and how using Evan***8217;s NPG+ would effect them. Here are my thoughts organized by topic.

Warning: This is long (almost 1,500 words***8230;). And I hope it seems well thought out.

Footnotes are at the bottom with links, and are denoted by parentheses and numbers (like this (1)).

Traditional Overheating

Traditional overheating occurs when the coolant starts to boil. This will usually result in a failure of the cooling system due to pressure followed very quickly by a loss of coolant and quickly rising engine temperatures. Think about it, once pressure is lost, all of the coolant will begin to boil very quickly (the pressure inflated the boiling temp, once the pressure is released everything will boil, and fast). The boiling only serves to worsen the problem since expansion will force the coolant out of the car faster, and once air replaces the coolant in the coolant lines, it***8217;s all over. Engine temperatures rise quickly and metal starts to warp.

Evan***8217;s NPG+ coolant doesn***8217;t boil until 375 degrees F. As an example, Peak Antifreeze at a 50/50 mix will boil at 265 degrees F (1).

So, inherently, Evan***8217;s NPG+ is much less likely to cause overheating due to boiling. If it does, your engine is already running really, really hot.

Thermostat

The thermostat allows the engine to heat up more quickly, and it is designed to try and keep the engines operating temperature above a specific level. When the engine is above this level combustion is more complete and there is less wear on the engine. It is generally accepted that temperatures around 200 degrees F are good (2)

Obviously in a cooler climate the thermostat plays and important role as it can open and close once the engine is warmed up to keep the engine at a certain level. The thermostat has nothing to do with overheating; it simply helps to keep the engine above a certain temperature by closing when the coolant temp drops too much.

Now, Evan***8217;s NPG+ is supposed to be very efficient at heat transfer. That means it heats up and cools down faster than water or water/antifreeze. That means your car will warm up faster with Evan***8217;s. Your temps will also return to normal faster after hard driving.

Now, if I live in a warm climate, do I need a thermostat? I ask because I am trying to bulletproof the coolant system, and removing parts from the cooling system removes the chance that those parts will fail. You certainly don***8217;t want your thermostat failing and sticking shut, that would cause overheating regardless of the coolant you are using as without access to the radiator the coolant can***8217;t effectively release heat.

AST (Air Separation Tank)

I***8217;m one that believes the AST should be left on the vehicle since it was engineered into the vehicle. Your coolant system isn***8217;t a vacuum (it***8217;s just the opposite), so you cannot get 100% of the air out. The AST helps release air from the system. Air in your cooling system can still cause hotspots, which can contribute to failure regardless of the coolant being used.

Obviously you should be using an after-market AST.

Corrosion and Scaling

Anytime you have water and corrodible metals, corrosion will occur. Antifreeze contains corrosion inhibitors to reduce or eliminate corrosion in the coolant system. Corrosion can reduce the efficiency of your cooling system and contribute to failures.

Scaling is caused by what***8217;s in our water. Take a couple cups of tap water and boil it off. What***8217;s left is scale. Scaling can clog the fins of our radiators and make them less efficient.

Evan***8217;s NPG+ has no water and will not corrode or cause scaling.

Pressure

Our coolant systems are pressurized to increase the boiling point of the coolant. With Evan***8217;s NPG+, the boiling temperature is already very high, so we shouldn***8217;t need as much pressure to maintain efficient cooling.

Evan***8217;s says that you can run a low-pressure (7psi) or no-pressure (0psi) cooling system using NPG+ (3). This will reduce general stress on the system (lower pressure equals less stress) and reduce leakage.

Overheating can cause intense pressure as the coolant starts to boil. This can cause a failure in the cooling system; causing a loss of pressure and fluid. If you run Evan***8217;s NPG+ in a 0psi cooling system, you remove the risk of an overheating pressure release (which quickly drains the coolant) since there is no pressure to begin with. You will still have fluid entering your overflow reservoir though, since NPG+ still expands when it***8217;s heated.

Coolant Temperatures

The more energy the coolant can absorb, the higher the coolant temperatures will be. There***8217;s no shortage of heat as the combustion chamber can get very hot (can reach 4,500 degrees F (4)).

People have reported higher coolant temperatures using Evan***8217;s NPG+ (5). This is because it***8217;s more efficient. Of course, you should expect it to be higher coming out of the engine, and conversely, you should expect it to be lower coming out of the radiator (compared to water/antifreeze).

Now, coolant temperatures by themselves aren***8217;t an indication of situations where heat causes engine damage. We watch our water temperatures closely to avoid an overheating situation where the coolant boils.

My Questions

1. Safe Engine Operating Temperatures

Cars overheat because the cooling system can***8217;t remove enough heat. Evan***8217;s NPG+ allows the cooling system to continue functioning at much higher temperatures than traditional antifreeze.

My question is: How high of an operating temperature would cause engine damage? Assuming you stay below the boiling point of Evan***8217;s NPG how hot could you safely run your engine in terms of oil and coolant temperatures? At what temperature does a high-grade synthetic oil such as Redline break down?

2. Impact of a no-pressure cooling system

In a no-pressure cooling system you will have less stress on the system as a whole and less change of leakage.

Are there other factors that I am not familiar with which would make a low-pressure cooling system more desirable than a no-pressure cooling system? If you are using Evan***8217;s NPG+, what pressure level are you running your system at and why?

3. Thermostat: Should it stay or should it go now?

I live in a warm climate (Phoenix, AZ). In the winter I might see freezing a couple of times, certainly nothing lower than 30 degrees F, and even then it will get into the 50s/60s in the afternoon on those ***8220;cold***8221; days.

Do I need a thermostat? The real question comes down to this. At what external temperature does a freely flowing coolant system (open or no thermostat) in an RX7 cause the temperature of the coolant to go below a certain threshold (say 190 degrees F)? Now, this question is complicated by driving style (drive hard, it gets hotter), and speed (drive fast and you get cooler much faster). I***8217;m thinking I will just leave the thermostat on just in case for during colder weather.

Conclusions and Follow-up

I don***8217;t see any reason not to run Evan***8217;s NPG+ as a coolant. As well, I don***8217;t see any reason not to run Evan***8217;s on a no-pressure cooling system. I only see reasons TO do this.

Now, I***8217;m not using Evan***8217;s NPG+ coolant right now. Why? Because I just ordered it this morning. Once I get it I will be flushing my system, replacing my stock AST, replacing the thermostat (with a new Mazda one), and filling up with Evan***8217;s. Hopefully I will have my water temperature gauge installed by this time, but I***8217;m not sure if I will. And I***8217;m not really concerned about specific water temperature readings, I***8217;m more concerned with water temperature levels when they deviate from what I***8217;m used to seeing (might indicate a problem).

Besides this, I***8217;m going to do some testing of the thermal characteristics of Evan***8217;s NPG+, water, and water/antifreeze mixes. Specifically, I***8217;m going to test:
1. Energy absorption rates (using a fixed energy source and a fixed amount of fluid, how fast will the fluid temperatures rise to a specific point).
2. Energy release rates (same thing as 1, except I will be timing the cool down period from a hot temperature to a lower temp).

I will post back as soon as I***8217;ve had a chance to do these tests. I***8217;m not going to be super-scientific; it***8217;s going to be kitchen chemistry. But it should be controlled enough to produce valid results.

Footnotes:
1. Pep Boys website, Peak product information : [url]http://www.pepboys.com/products/peakantifreeze.shtm[url]
2. HowStuffWorks.com engine cooling system information: http://www.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system1.htm
3. Evan***8217;s Cooling Systems NPG+ information page: https://www.evanscooling.com/main31.htm
4. HowStuffWorks.com engine cooling system information: http://www.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system5.htm
5. RX7Club.com Forum Thread: http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthr...hlight=evan%2A"

bobdmac
03-14-2011, 10:05 AM
Doru has gone Bluebee on us.

doru
03-14-2011, 10:17 AM
Doru has gone Bluebee on us.

No Sir!!!!
I don't even come close to her. I am just very NPG+ prone and actually tried to uncover as many stones as I can. It looks more and more the way to go. The weather is just not cooperative enough just yet (for me anyways)
And for the NPG-R, I will still go NPG+, because Evans states on their web page that the NPG+ is recommended for cold weather. they also say that the more fluid NPG-R is for more for track applications and that it is recommended to change it every 5 years.

bobdmac
03-14-2011, 10:29 AM
I have some jugs of NPG+ in my trunk, along with various belts and hoses, awaiting the rest of the parts for my big cooling system overhaul.

chiefwej
03-14-2011, 11:36 AM
The hardest part is getting ALL of the old coolant out.

franka
03-14-2011, 11:51 AM
In reply to Doru the thermostat, in a 540 at least, are computed controlled to keep the engine temp where the BMW engrs want it. So I would keep it in the system, even if living in a hot area.

bobdmac
03-14-2011, 12:00 PM
The hardest part is getting ALL of the old coolant out.

That's the part that concerns me the most. I read this: "I fully drained the system, radiator, lower hose, block drains, and ran the heater pump to get it out of there. I must have got it all because Bentley says it holds 12 liters and that is exactly what I got in it." How did you "run the heater pump?" Did you just turn on the heat?

Also, where did you get the 1.4 bar cap, and why did you take the gasket off to effectively make it a 1 bar?

bobdmac
03-14-2011, 12:04 PM
In reply to Doru the thermostat, in a 540 at least, are computed controlled to keep the engine temp where the BMW engrs want it. So I would keep it in the system, even if living in a hot area.

I agree with Franka on this; otherwise, the engine might still run too cold.

doru
03-14-2011, 12:31 PM
In reply to Doru the thermostat, in a 540 at least, are computed controlled to keep the engine temp where the BMW engrs want it. So I would keep it in the system, even if living in a hot area.

I agree with you Frank. I will not pull my t-stat out. I need it closed at startup, especially in winter. And winter is like 6 months long here.
Not everything that gay said is 100%. He has some valid points though. And a good reader is one who can read between the lines too. :)

doru
03-14-2011, 12:39 PM
Concerning removing all old coolant, I am not sure how I will do it.
My idea is to have the car on jackstands, opening the drain petcock of the radiator, turn the heat at max at low fan setting. I will have the car raised at the end a tad higher, so all coolant will come out at the water pump level, which is the lowest part of the engine. (this once the WP is removed). I also have the aluminum O-ring that seats at the engine plug, in case I have to remove that one. Once all the coolant is out, I will lower the rear to have front higher for when I have to fill up with NPG+.
I sure hope all the coolant will drain that way, and nothing will be trapped in the heater core or other passages.
Chief, you did it, are there any flaws in my thinking? I cannot stuff rags inside and wipe it clean.
I know there might still some old fluid that contains water, but I also think that once the car starts to warm up, by opening the expansion tank pressure cap, that minimal amount of H2O should steam out without much of overboil, if any.

haolibird
03-14-2011, 05:53 PM
Absolutly open the block drain, or you won't get all the coolant out.
You can coax more out with a air compressor, or shop vac (reversed) as well.

Good luck

chiefwej
03-14-2011, 07:26 PM
I opened the radiator drain, removed the block drain plugs (two on the V8's), blew air through the reservoir cap, disconnected the bottom radiator hose, turned the heater to max with the key to the on position. Bavarian Auto has a much more involved set of instructions. According to Evans, they want any remaining water/coolant to be less than 4%. Next time I do anything on the cooling system, I plan to drain out two gallons and replace it with some fresh NPG that has been setting round the garage.

Here is BavAuto's instructions:
PART NUMBER:
NPG+
PROCEDURE:
1. Remove radiator drain plug or lower radiator hose at the radiator nipple. Drain fluid into catch pan.
2. Remove engine block drain plug. Drain fluid into catch pan.
3. Remove thermostat. This will allow coolant in the upper engine to drain.
4. Disconnect at least one end of each coolant hose that you can access, and allow coolant to drain.
5. Remove one of the heater hoses that runs through the firewall to the heater core. Allow the fluid to drain.
If you have compressed air (or a tube that you can slide over the nipple, to blow through), gently blow
through the water pipe and heater core (use low pressure***8211;20psi or less). You must have the heater controls
set to full hot. On electrically controlled models, the key must be in the "RUN" position.
6. Install the thermostat housing (without the thermostat, if possible). Don't worry about using a new gasket,
at this point. Replace all drain plugs and all hoses that were removed or disconnected.
7. Fill the system with water and run the engine. Keep heater set to full hot. If the thermostat is in place, run
the engine until full operating temperature is reached. You can leave the radiator/reservoir cap off during
this step. This will keep the system from building pressure as the coolant warms up.
8. Allow engine and coolant to cool a bit and repeat Steps 1 through 4.
9. Reconnect all hoses. Install all drain plugs. Install thermostat with new gasket or o-ring.
10. Fill cooling system with NPG+. Start engine and follow standard cooling system bleeding process as outlined
in the appropriate repair manual (also outlined in the Summer 2005 issue of the Bavarian Autosport
Fast Times newsletter. Available on-line at www.BavAuto.com/newsletter (http://www.BavAuto.com/newsletter)).
PROCEDURE NOTES: The assumption is made that the installer has access to the applicable repair manual for the model being
serviced. These instructions are not intended to be a 100% step-by-step coolant replacement procedure, but to note the unique
steps involved in changing to the NPG+ waterless coolant. The manufacturer recommends that a maximum of 5% water (less is
better) remain in the cooling system before adding the NPG+ coolant.
Refer to the appropriate owner's manual or repair manual, for your model, to determine cooling system capacity. Be sure
that you have sufficient NPG+ to fully refill the system.
Be careful to capture all old coolant and dispose of properly.
BAVARIAN AUTOSPORT
NPG+ Waterless Coolant Installation Instructions
Call Toll Free: 1.800.535.2002
275 Constitution Avenue, Portsmouth, NH 03801 ***8226; 603.427.2002 ***8226; Fax 800.507.2002 ***8226; www.BavAuto.com (http://www.BavAuto.com)


Go HERE (http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp), search for NPG+, click "more info" then click "Product instructions"

doru
03-14-2011, 09:16 PM
OK, it's a bit more involved than initially thought. I will still go ahead with this.
Thanks Chief.

bobdmac
03-14-2011, 09:20 PM
Chief, did you see my question about the 1.4 bar cap and then removing the gasket? I wondered where you got the cap in first place, and why you decided to remove the gasket. How long ago did you take the gasket off? Any fluid spillage?

franka
03-14-2011, 09:53 PM
Step 7 says to fill the engine with water and run it with heater on full high. I get it.

My question is why not use a coolant system descaler in the clean water or at least use distilled water for the rinse?

chiefwej
03-14-2011, 10:52 PM
The 1.4 bar cap was one I had lying around the garage. If I recall correctly it was for an E34. It really makes no difference 2 bar or 1.4, since there is at most 4 or 5 psi in the system. About a month ago I decided to just remove the top "Square" O-ring from the cap, making it a zero pressure cap. No problems, no spillage or overflow, it just doesn't have ANY pressure at the reservoir now.

pleiades
03-19-2011, 09:30 AM
Chief, have you tried running your car with low-octane yet?

chiefwej
03-19-2011, 10:51 PM
Chief, have you tried running your car with low-octane yet?
She only gets Top Tier premium.

bluebee
04-01-2011, 08:11 PM
For the record, another brave pioneer has taken the EvansNPG+ waterless plunge today!

- Changed OEM coolant for Evans NPG+ (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5964971#post5964971), by aioros (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/member.php?u=144828), ('99 528i)

Whorse
04-01-2011, 09:41 PM
Has anybody with an Oil TEMP gauge ever used the Evans stuff??? The one question that hasn't been answered is how well does it absorb and release heat? The temp of the Evans coolant could be 110c in a v8 and the electronically controlled thermostat will keep the coolant at that temp but is it absorbing the same amount of heat as coolant/water?? If we can confirm the OIL Temp is still the same as before the Evans coolant then we can confirm it "works" the same way as conventional coolant.

Radian
04-01-2011, 10:24 PM
Has anybody with an Oil TEMP gauge ever used the Evans stuff???

OTR owner/operators....daily

http://thegamingliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/implied-facepalm.jpg

Whorse
04-01-2011, 11:16 PM
OTR owner/operators....daily

http://thegamingliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/implied-facepalm.jpg
Excuse my ignorance but whats OTR? Did anybody confirm the oil temps stayed the same?

bluebee
04-01-2011, 11:44 PM
Excuse my ignorance but whats OTR? Did anybody confirm the oil temps stayed the same?

Whatever OTR stands for, it's not a known BMW technical term:
- BMW E39 technoterms, acronyms, glossary, definitions slang, technical terms, abbreviations (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5172983#post5172983))

Radian
04-02-2011, 06:09 AM
Whatever OTR stands for, it's not a known BMW technical term:
- BMW E39 technoterms, acronyms, glossary, definitions slang, technical terms, abbreviations (1)

Over-The-Road truck drivers...Long haulers. People that own and/or operate large diesel fleet vehicles (aka a "Semi"). There wasn't a single truck manufactured that didn't have a functional oil temp gauge. I assure you, a good driver keeps tabs on it among other things.

bluebee
04-02-2011, 06:54 AM
Over-The-Road truck drivers...Long haulers.

Oh. I won't add that to the BMW acronym list because it's not BMW E39 related then. Thanks for the explanation.

There wasn't a single truck manufactured that didn't have a functional oil temp gauge

Even the E39 has the 'capability' to measure oil temperature (if it has the sensor). For example, my 2002 525i doesn't have the sensor but it has the cluster 'capability' as shown below:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258588&stc=1&d=1292467432

RDL discusses the oil temperature sensor in the E39 in post #51 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5965555&postcount=51) today:
- What is the coolant temperature of an E39 (I6 or V8) under normal operating condition (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5965555#post5965555)

My '03 530I M54 automatic transmission, definitely does have an oil temperature sensor. I have read the values with INPA and DIS. I've never tried through the instrument cluster. ...My oil filter housing does have 2 sensors as indicated in the RealOEM link. WDS agrees that I should have oil temp sensing.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DT63&mospid=47587&btnr=11_2201&hg=11&fg=30
part #s 12 & 13 for pressure & temp

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=272832&stc=1&d=1301754021

franka
04-05-2011, 03:30 PM
So how much does the Evan's coolant cost for a V8?

edmonem
04-05-2011, 03:35 PM
So how much does the Evan's coolant cost for a V8?

No difference for v8 or v6... I think out radiators might be the same size so expect to buy3 gallons...the third for topping off...about $35 per gallon


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

bobdmac
04-05-2011, 03:38 PM
Because it's only sold in gallon jugs, you have to buy four of them to cover the 12 liter or so coolant capacity. So you spend about $140-150, including shipping, and you have about 3 quarts left over.

bobdmac
04-05-2011, 03:57 PM
No difference for v8 or v6... I think out radiators might be the same size so expect to buy3 gallons...the third for topping off...about $35 per gallon


Well, close, but not quite, according to Bentley's, which lists 10.5 liters vs 12.0 liters for the I6 vs. V8.

edmonem
04-05-2011, 04:07 PM
Well, close, but not quite, according to Bentley's, which lists 10.5 liters vs 12.0 liters for the I6 vs. V8.

I didn't realize it was that much
Of a difference... Oh well, so you spend another $35 for one more gallon....


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

bobdmac
04-05-2011, 04:14 PM
Unless, like me, you make the mistake of ordering only 3 gallons first, and then have to pay additional shipping for the 4th gallon.

bluebee
04-05-2011, 05:07 PM
I see you've got the volumes figured out between the I6 & V8.

[Total Volume: 1997 I6=10.5 quarts (2.6 gallons), 1997 V8=12.0 quarts (3.0 gallons), 1998-2002 I6=11.1 quarts (2.8 gallons), 1998-2002 V8=12.7 quarts (3.2 gallons), 1997-2002 V8 with latent heater=13.5 quarts (3.4 gallons)].

For the record, here's what is in the summary thread on the dozen BMW fluids:
- BMW E39 fluid summary printout for your glovebox (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460495))


E39 Engine coolant: phosphate free (for Europe's high-mineral-content water), amine & nitrite/nitrate free (for USA long-life requirements), & low-silicate or silicate free (for Japan requirements) 50:50 mixture of ethylene glycol & water (the Bentleys say distilled water (Bentley 020-11), aka de-mineralized or de-ionized water, some call it purified water, and the BMW AG TIS 12.11.2007 18:56 specifies water with a pH from 6.5 to 8.0, maximum total hardness of 3.6 mmol Ca++/liter, maximum chloride content 100 mg/liter, and maximum sulphate content 100mg/liter; interestingly the BMW TIS says "potable tap water usually fulfills these requirements (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5244691&postcount=10)". EPA reports show San Jose & NYC tap water easily fulfill these requirements. The BMW TIS expressly states additives are not helpful and are not recommended. BMW lists a score of recommended coolants in their BMW AG TIS 12.11.2007 18:55 which meet the BMW N 600 69.0 standard, some of which are BMW PN:81.22.9.407.454 1.5-liter; BMW PN:88.88.6.900.316 1 gallon; Castrol Anti-Freeze NF; BASF Glysantin Protect Plus G48, & Havoline AFC (BD04); but most of which are not easily found in the USA. Many Bimmerfesters recommend BMW coolant; however other Bimmerfesters recommend (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5694845&postcount=9) Prestone Extended Life 5/150, Valvoline Zerex G-05, and Service Pro Universal Formula. Others (e.g., chiefwej (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5217777#post5217777), aioros (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5964971#post5964971)), have tested Evans NPG+ but be aware propanol entails a different maintenance philosophy than the aqueous fluids listed above and is not compatible with them. [Total Volume: 1997 I6=10.5 quarts (2.6 gallons), 1997 V8=12.0 quarts (3.0 gallons), 1998-2002 I6=11.1 quarts (2.8 gallons), 1998-2002 V8=12.7 quarts (3.2 gallons), 1997-2002 V8 with latent heater=13.5 quarts (3.4 gallons)]. Prestone says the only reason for phosphate free is the extremely high mineral content of water in Europe - and that in the USA, it's not needed (http://www.prestone.com/carcare/faq.php). Replacement Interval: Every three years (Bentley page 020-9) or every four years (aforementioned BMW AG TIS) starting from date of manufacture (except for M-Power vehicles which have 3-year intervals). Note: Mixing BMW-recommended coolant brands is permissible; but mixing types is not permissible unless it's an emergency.

moots
04-06-2011, 07:35 AM
Doru has gone Bluebee on us.

:rofl:

bluebee
04-06-2011, 01:30 PM
Any suggestions for a thorough drain? I am thinking:


Car on jackstands, front slightly higher
Key in pos II, heat at max, engine off
Open radiator petcock and drain
Open block drain
Start removing all the parts/replace cooling parts.

At this stage, the block, heater core and everything else should be void of old cooling? Anything I missed?

For the record, I added this to the bestlinks as part of the cooling system threads ... (see additions in red) ...

- What to look for when your KTMP (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432457)) or coolant temperature gauge indicates overheating (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432457)) (2 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428099)) (3 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=482274)) (4 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453141)) (5 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=396807)) (6 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=404391)) (7 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416061)) (8 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421792)) (9 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=463873)) (10 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330490)) (11 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5928658&postcount=7)) & what to look for in a perfectly normal E39 cooling system (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432457)) & a picture of every failed part in the cooling system (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=428099)) & various techniques to properly bleed (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449008)) (2 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1423821)) (3 (http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=225208)) & refill (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449008)) & drain (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5602226&postcount=170)) (2 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5918598&postcount=202)) & what coolant to use (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461165)) & what parts to replace (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5357723&postcount=3)) & what special tools to make or buy (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464226)) & how to tell how old your cooling system is (1) (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464689) (2 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476140&highlight=)) & how to test the cooling system auxiliary electrical fan (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480135)) (2 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=748011)) & the infamous fuse 75 (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419456&highlight=fuse+75)) & the aux fan relay (1 (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=605750)) & how to diagnose lack of HVAC/IHKA heater core heat with cooling system (auxiliary pump) at idle (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5875902&postcount=9)) & a Behr radiator and Behr/Heat expansion tank autopsy (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501999)) (2 (http://members.cox.net/rsm540i/E39ExpansionTank.htm)) & request for another Behr surge tank autopsy (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=505142)) & why new made-in-China Behr/Hella expansion tanks are DOA (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509104)) & E39 Fan shroud removal DIY (Besian (http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/e39_fan_procedure.htm)) (M54 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5366089&postcount=29)) & some of the better cooling system DIYs (cn90 (http://bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/199986) 1997-1998 M54TU) (cn90 V8 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5447278#post5447278)) (aioro (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5040253)s '99-03 M54) (gent99 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5447278&postcount=40) '01 530i) (pelican (http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/tech_main.htm) 3-series) (bluebee (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5361929&postcount=107) M54B25) & tricks to replace the fan clutch nut (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5361390&postcount=23)) & lower-hose thermoswitch o-ring (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5373556&postcount=4)) & to non-destructively remove the heater hoses (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5367036&postcount=5)) or radiator nipple (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520253)) or expansion tank nipple (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501999)) (2 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5734777&postcount=17)) or Oetiker clamp (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5692130&postcount=15)) or misplaced thermostat wiring loom (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501067)) or broken bleeder screw (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5367117&postcount=124)) & modifying the cooling system pressure cap (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1755277&postcount=1)), or using propanol-based zero-pressure fluids like NPG+ (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5217777&postcount=1)) (2 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5964971#post5964971)) (3 (http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430247)) (4 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5888978#post5888978)) (5 (http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430247)) or all-aluminum cooling system parts by Zionsville (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/Zionsville%20cooling%20system%20overhaul%20on%2019 99%20540it)) (2 (http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e39/8716836-1.html)) (3 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1783573&postcount=1)) aluminum radiators & what happens if you drive one mile too far with an overheated BMW cooling system (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5863855&postcount=3)).

doru
06-01-2011, 07:39 AM
Well it's been my 2nd week with the car converted to NPG+.
As advertised, there is absolutely zero pressure. The hoses are soft with the car running and warm engine. Taking off the radiator cap with a hot, running engine is a non-issue right now. Done it every day after I drive to remove the residual water drops left after I flushed and drained the system.
I don't see any performance gains/losses but it never was advertised as such.
The biggest plus is the fact that I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE PLASTIC COOLING PARTS FAILING AT THE WORST MOMENT. Done deal.
The only questionable cooling parts left are: the T-stat and the fan & fan clutch, but these are manageable woes.

Note: if any of you feel compelled to change over to NPG+, don't skip draining the engine block by removing the engine plug. There is about 1/2 gallon of coolant at the bottom of the engine, which drains only by pulling the drain plug. Also, don't forget to vent the heater core by removing one of the 3 hoses that go into the firewall close to the driver side. A significant amount of coolant camout from there as well, after I used the air compressor to pump some air.

dvsgene
06-01-2011, 09:00 AM
The only questionable cooling parts left are: the T-stat and the fan & fan clutch, but these are manageable woes.



Thanks for the update. Curious, does the NPG keep the engine cooler or move heat faster than normal coolant? Meaning, can one do away with the fan and fan clutch after converting.

My guess is NO but just wondering aside from the zero pressure, can a fan clutch delete be considered? Just wondering out loud.

doru
06-01-2011, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the update. Curious, does the NPG keep the engine cooler or move heat faster than normal coolant? Meaning, can one do away with the fan and fan clutch after converting.

My guess is NO but just wondering aside from the zero pressure, can a fan clutch delete be considered? Just wondering out loud.

The average temperature dropped about 2C when the engine is hot. I don't see any 98C temps anymore on the OBC. Also the fluctuations when driving in the city shrunk. They are still there, but not as noticeable as before. The lower margin and the upper margin are one a tad higher and the other a tad lower. After I park the car, it seems the engine cools off a bit faster too. I am not sure what all this means in terms of heat dissipation (if it's better or worse), but having a lower temperature might be better for the electronically controlled T-stat. I don't think it's bad for engine management (operating temperature - mpg etc), because I see the "recommended" 92C on the OBC.
In terms of fan & fan clutch, if you have to change them every 6-8 years or whatever, it's only half as bad as before - you don't have to put up with whole cooling overhaul. You just do the belts & pulleys together with the fan & clutch. My WP is the Stewart HP which "should" last a long time.
The original WP I pulled looked very good. It was much smaller than the Stewart unit and the bearing and impeller looked good and tight. The impeller was the composite one (plastic). I also changed the composite pullies and went the anodized aluminum route (WP & power steering pump). I feel comfortable.

bobdmac
06-01-2011, 12:11 PM
The biggest plus is the fact that I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE PLASTIC COOLING PARTS FAILING AT THE WORST MOMENT. Done deal.
The only questionable cooling parts left are: the T-stat and the fan & fan clutch, but these are manageable woes.

Note: if any of you feel compelled to change over to NPG+, don't skip draining the engine block by removing the engine plug. There is about 1/2 gallon of coolant at the bottom of the engine, which drains only by pulling the drain plug. Also, don't forget to vent the heater core by removing one of the 3 hoses that go into the firewall close to the driver side. A significant amount of coolant camout from there as well, after I used the air compressor to pump some air.

Doru, thanks for the tip about the heater core and engine plug. However, in the interest of accuracy, I think you should modify your statement about the cooling system to read "I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT [PRESSURE CAUSING] THE PLASTIC COOLING PARTS FAILING AT THE WORST MOMENT."

In other words, the plastic may still fail because of heat fatigue, but the reduction in internal pressure should make it last significantly longer.

bobdmac
06-01-2011, 12:19 PM
My guess is NO but just wondering aside from the zero pressure, can a fan clutch delete be considered? Just wondering out loud.

You're right, DVS Gene. The NPG plus doesn't improve the efficiency of the cooling system; it just eliminates the need for pressure to keep the coolant from boiling at operating temperature. If you were to delete the fan clutch, you run the risk of running the engine temp too high and breaking down the oil viscosity. Plus, it might reach 375 fahrenheit in extreme situations, at which point it would also boil over.

Jason5driver
06-01-2011, 12:29 PM
Well it's been my 2nd week with the car converted to NPG+.
As advertised, there is absolutely zero pressure. The hoses are soft with the car running and warm engine. Taking off the radiator cap with a hot, running engine is a non-issue right now. Done it every day after I drive to remove the residual water drops left after I flushed and drained the system.
I don't see any performance gains/losses but it never was advertised as such.
The biggest plus is the fact that I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE PLASTIC COOLING PARTS FAILING AT THE WORST MOMENT. Done deal.
The only questionable cooling parts left are: the T-stat and the fan & fan clutch, but these are manageable woes.

Note: if any of you feel compelled to change over to NPG+, don't skip draining the engine block by removing the engine plug. There is about 1/2 gallon of coolant at the bottom of the engine, which drains only by pulling the drain plug. Also, don't forget to vent the heater core by removing one of the 3 hoses that go into the firewall close to the driver side. A significant amount of coolant camout from there as well, after I used the air compressor to pump some air.

What is your running temp.?
EDIT: noticed your post above... 98-2 = ~96 degrees C. .... = ~204.8 deg. F.
:D
Couldn't you just flush the cooling system with a garden hose in order to get all of the coolant out of the heater core?

Thanks!
Jason

bobdmac
06-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Couldn't you just flush the cooling system with a garden hose in order to get all of the coolant out of the heater core?

Thanks!
Jason

It's actually the water in the coolant that you need to get rid of.

doru
06-01-2011, 01:23 PM
Doru, thanks for the tip about the heater core and engine plug. However, in the interest of accuracy, I think you should modify your statement about the cooling system to read "I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT [PRESSURE CAUSING] THE PLASTIC COOLING PARTS FAILING AT THE WORST MOMENT."

In other words, the plastic may still fail because of heat fatigue, but the reduction in internal pressure should make it last significantly longer.

Actually because there is no pressure, even if it was to fail, you can just duk tape a hose or a leak. I am sure it will hold up until you drive home to adress the problem, which with the OEM system you can't.

What is your running temp.?
EDIT: noticed your post above... 98-2 = ~96 degrees C. .... = ~204.8 deg. F.
:D
Couldn't you just flush the cooling system with a garden hose in order to get all of the coolant out of the heater core?

Thanks!
Jason

I flushed everything 3 times. The first 2 times the flushed fluid was still blue. The 3d it only had a slight tinge of blue. It's not hard to flush. I just slapped everything back (hoses, plug & WP - only handtight), and run the water hose with the aux pump. This is 1/2 hour tops.
As Bob said, you still end up with some moisture inside, which I see less and less every day (opening the exp cap).

bobdmac
06-01-2011, 02:23 PM
Actually because there is no pressure, even if it was to fail, you can just duk tape a hose or a leak. I am sure it will hold up until you drive home to adress the problem, which with the OEM system you can't.

True enough.

vetaldj
06-13-2011, 06:21 PM
Ok, looks like I'm in line to get this stuff into my 528i. Just need to figure out the cheapest way to ship this stuff to Hawaii (it cost same to ship it as to buy 4 gl of NPG).

One question though, do I need to get that HP water pump or I can get OEM and it will work for NPG?

Thanks!

edmonem
06-13-2011, 06:34 PM
Ok, looks like I'm in line to get this stuff into my 528i. Just need to figure out the cheapest way to ship this stuff to Hawaii (it cost same to ship it as to buy 4 gl of NPG).

One question though, do I need to get that HP water pump or I can get OEM and it will work for NPG?

Thanks!

Sup vetal...I ordered 3 gallons if this stuff about 7-8 months ago. I wouldn't suggest ordering from Evans main warehouse as they are in the eastern US area. To save on shipping, they referred me to buy from mooneyes. They're located in California and will greatly lower the shipping price to Hawaii. I think they had it at $32.50 a gallon. Shipping was very reasonable. I think thier website was mooneyesusa.com. I just ordered them on the phone.didn't really get to check out thier website.


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

franka
06-13-2011, 07:19 PM
I suggest calling and see if it's stocked in HI. If not, attempt to negotiate shipping price from the CA distributor down. Nothing lost in asking.

franka
06-13-2011, 07:23 PM
Doru, thanks for the tip about the heater core and engine plug. However, in the interest of accuracy, I think you should modify your statement about the cooling system to read "I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT [PRESSURE CAUSING] THE PLASTIC COOLING PARTS FAILING AT THE WORST MOMENT."

In other words, the plastic may still fail because of heat fatigue, but the reduction in internal pressure should make it last significantly longer.

All true but problems like the water pump failing/seizing and taking the fan into the radiator are still real problems that are not pressure related.

Anderias86
06-13-2011, 07:39 PM
very interesting i just did a full flush on mine but i would have loved it if i knew about this before hand :-) keep us updated and thanks for sharing your findings

doru
06-13-2011, 08:25 PM
All true but problems like the water pump failing/seizing and taking the fan into the radiator are still real problems that are not pressure related.

Depends on the water pump, and how long you keep it there.
My OEM one with composite impellers was still looking A OK after 8 years and 143xxx Km. Also the bearing was tight on it as well.
I think it's crazy to buy expen$ive coolant only to cheap out on a waterpump....

vetaldj
06-15-2011, 04:07 PM
Ok, i think I can ask here instead of new thread...

Patient - 1997 528i, 113K. Was feeling not very good recently and I changed CCV (got rid of burn oil smell :) ), fuel pump and filter, cleaned MAF and ICV, air intake boot changed so it feels a little bit better now.

I'm in planning mode for conversion to 0 pressure system and I want to change some cooling stuff "while I'm there". I can't afford full system change as I already spent my budget for other urgent stuff.
So, my list is for now:
- Water pump (HEPA or Graf)
- Thermostat with cover (What do you think about FEBI brand? Or I need to stick with OEM only?)
- tensioners
- pulleys
- belts

I inspected hoses and they looks like new outside even though they're 13 years old. Tank was changed on 1998 and looks good, there's some signs of coolant around but it not fresh and I was not able to find any leaks, could be result of tank change problems back in 1998, it even has that brass screw. Radiator original without any bents on it, fan and clutch looks OK.

What do you think about this stage 1 list?

chiefwej
06-15-2011, 06:51 PM
Ok, i think I can ask here instead of new thread...

Patient - 1997 528i, 113K. Was feeling not very good recently and I changed CCV (got rid of burn oil smell :) ), fuel pump and filter, cleaned MAF and ICV, air intake boot changed so it feels a little bit better now.

I'm in planning mode for conversion to 0 pressure system and I want to change some cooling stuff "while I'm there". I can't afford full system change as I already spent my budget for other urgent stuff.
So, my list is for now:
- Water pump (HEPA or Graf)
- Thermostat with cover (What do you think about FEBI brand? Or I need to stick with OEM only?)
- tensioners
- pulleys
- belts

I inspected hoses and they looks like new outside even though they're 13 years old. Tank was changed on 1998 and looks good, there's some signs of coolant around but it not fresh and I was not able to find any leaks, could be result of tank change problems back in 1998, it even has that brass screw. Radiator original without any bents on it, fan and clutch looks OK.

What do you think about this stage 1 list?
You are ignoring the two most common failure points, the radiator and expansion tank. They are most prone to failure which would mean a loss of about $100 worth of NPG. An e39 is the first car I have ever owned where the radiator hoses outlast the radiators. (at 70k I'm on my third radiator, that's why I now run NPG)

Roy AT
06-17-2011, 02:02 AM
I finally got the time to read all 10 pages of this thread only to decide that i'll go for this and suddenly realize that it is not available here. :tsk:

franka
06-17-2011, 05:21 AM
An e39 is the first car I have ever owned where the radiator hoses outlast the radiators. (at 70k I'm on my third radiator, that's why I now run NPG)

Three (3) radiators in 70k miles? Definitely something was wrong there.

HotRodM5
06-17-2011, 10:48 AM
Hey Chief,

They've posted your thread on M5Board.com and it seems to be generating some interest from the M5 owners! Thought you'd like to know...

Keep the updates coming, and THANKS for taking the first plunge with the NPG--it's definately on my list to do....

Rod

bluebee
06-17-2011, 10:45 PM
An e39 is the first car I have ever owned where the radiator hoses outlast the radiators

Now that's an interesting observation!

gladiator_jai
08-11-2011, 11:53 AM
I am going to do it this weekend. Going to order through Amazon tonight. If anyone has any other suggestions please do reply.

pleiades
08-11-2011, 11:55 AM
Better price at bavauto.com

gladiator_jai
08-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Better price at bavauto.com

Thanks a lot, ordered.
Bavauto really needs to have their site search engine optimized.

I will let you guys know how it goes. I have the instructions that chief posted.
It's been scaring me lately. I've got the check coolant level twice this week and when I opened the tank, there was no blue in it, just water. yikes. I had it flushed last year...if that matters. Also 66,677.

pleiades
08-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Thanks a lot, ordered.
Bavauto really needs to have their site search engine optimized.

I will let you guys know how it goes. I have the instructions that chief posted.
It's been scaring me lately. I've got the check coolant level twice this week and when I opened the tank, there was no blue in it, just water. yikes. I had it flushed last year...if that matters.

Well if that much, you may well have a leak somewhere and need to be finding that and replacing those system parts before you fill up with expensive coolant. No?

gladiator_jai
08-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Well if that much, you may well have a leak somewhere and need to be finding that and replacing those system parts before you fill up with expensive coolant. No?

Yes, I will do that for sure, that's the main goal. Just thought that I'll switch to NPG+ as I have to flush it anyway now.