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View Full Version : Stock vs. Mod 330i = No difference!


Emission
11-19-2003, 11:07 AM
Vehicle:

2001 BMW 330i 5-Speed

Modifications:

Jim C CAI, TriFlow Muffler, RD Sways

Test area:

1.5 miles, 15 ft. elevation above sea level, straight and level smooth blacktop, no traffic or cross streets, 50-55 F ambient temperature.

Test equipment:

Passport G-Timer GT2, identical driver

Summary:

We tested the car late last week with all modifications in place. The average 0-60 run (best in each direction) was 5.91 seconds. 0-90 mph was 13.26 seconds.

We took all modifications off last night (lease return) and tested again. The average 0-60 run was 5.85 seconds. 0-90mph was 12.51 seconds.

The only difference in the vehicles was about extra 10 gallons of gasoline in the "modified 330i" tank. The road was identical, and the ambient temp was within 5 degrees of each other.

Would the 10 gallons of gas (70 lbs?) be most likely responsible for the "slower" test times of the modified 330i.

Bottom line? I don't think the CAI or exhaust helps with performance. If anything, the mods may slow it down a bit (80-90 mph with mods = 3.00 seconds / stock is 2.56 seconds)!

Interesting.

Mr. The Edge
11-19-2003, 11:09 AM
10 gallons= 60 pounds

PhilH
11-19-2003, 11:12 AM
No surprise to me. I've always thought CAI and exhaust are bling mods more than performance modifications (not that bling mods are necessarily bad...said the guy who's buying 18" wheels).

Kaz
11-19-2003, 11:19 AM
No surprise. Those mods are probably even less effective on a 325 which already shares most of the intake and pretty much the whole exhaust with the 330.

Jeff_DML
11-19-2003, 11:19 AM
doesnt suprise me either. Would be nice to slap them up on the dyno too.

thanks for testing :)

pdz
11-19-2003, 11:38 AM
it's just too darn hard to get anything more out of n/a engines without serious hardware.

(not so true with forced induction --> :D )

Jeff_DML
11-19-2003, 11:51 AM
it's just too darn hard to get anything more out of n/a engines without serious hardware.

(not so true with forced induction --> :D )

:thumbup: , :p

amazing what some software changes do for a turbocharged car :angel:

pdz
11-19-2003, 12:08 PM
i've always thought that short of tinkering with cams, compression ratios, or final drive ratios that it's too damn hard to get useable/quantifiable gains out of any n/a engine'd BMW.

The HACK
11-19-2003, 12:20 PM
This isn't Tanin's car, is it? I thought he was keeping it?

Emission
11-19-2003, 12:26 PM
This isn't Tanin's car, is it? I thought he was keeping it?

Yes, it is his car. It is a very quick 330i (when I had my identical 330i, he could pull on me in all the gears - but mine could hit 131 and his topped at 129! :D ).

The dealer made him an incredible deal on the ZHP, so he is getting it on Friday.

pdz
11-19-2003, 12:32 PM
Yes, it is his car. It is a very quick 330i (when I had my identical 330i, he could pull on me in all the gears - but mine could hit 131 and his topped at 129! :D ).

The dealer made him an incredible deal on the ZHP, so he is getting it on Friday.

cool!

obviously you're going to document and test that car, for good comparison, RIGHT!???!?!?

Emission
11-19-2003, 12:37 PM
cool!

obviously you're going to document and test that car, for good comparison, RIGHT!???!?!?

Yes, we will test the ZHP in the identical manner, on the identical road. Before upgrades, and after. He is thinking of putting the muffler and CAI on the ZHP. They may not add speed, but they sound pretty cool!

Unfortunately, it may take about a month to break-in the vehicle before I can post numbers. :mad:

The HACK
11-19-2003, 12:38 PM
Yes, it is his car. It is a very quick 330i (when I had my identical 330i, he could pull on me in all the gears - but mine could hit 131 and his topped at 129! :D ).

The dealer made him an incredible deal on the ZHP, so he is getting it on Friday.

Ask him to bring the car down to the next techsession. I will not publish the results of the inspection online, it's just to satisfy Paddle.Shift's and my curiosity.

It's good that a SCTS member is getting a ZHP, we can finally put that stupid question to bed. Heck, that ZHP may be as popular at the next TechSession as the Z4 from the last one.

(Do not fret ZHP owners, we at SCTS have vowed NOT to further the ZHP discussion online, it is purely to satisfy our own curiosity.)

pdz
11-19-2003, 12:39 PM
Ask him to bring the car down to the next techsession. I will not publish the results of the inspection online, it's just to satisfy Paddle.Shift's and my curiosity.

It's good that a SCTS member is getting a ZHP, we can finally put that stupid question to bed. Heck, that ZHP may be as popular at the next TechSession as the Z4 from the last one.

(Do not fret ZHP owners, we at SCTS have vowed NOT to further the ZHP discussion online, it is purely to satisfy our own curiosity.)

we're curious, too.

damn west coast mafia.

:angel:

TAMPABAYBIMMERS
11-19-2003, 12:49 PM
it might benefit to get the jim conforti shark injector if you dont have one already ... when paired up with those mods is when you will see the difference....but im not sure if they make one for your car

Emission
11-19-2003, 12:51 PM
Ask him to bring the car down to the next techsession. I will not publish the results of the inspection online, it's just to satisfy Paddle.Shift's and my curiosity.



Tanin already said he is going to file all the numbers off the parts when he gets the car. :p

In all honesty, we (Tanin and myself) wonder if the ZHP can do as well to 60 mph as it may need a 2-3 shift. That 2-3 shift killed the G35 6M to 60, but it made up the loss by 80 mph (and was faster than the 330i).

Shifting = lost time

Kaz
11-19-2003, 12:51 PM
it might benefit to get the jim conforti shark injector if you dont have one already ... when paired up with those mods is when you will see the difference....but im not sure if they make one for your car

We've all been waiting 3 years for one but it still doesn't exist.

Emission
11-19-2003, 12:52 PM
it might benefit to get the jim conforti shark injector if you dont have one already ... when paired up with those mods is when you will see the difference....but im not sure if they make one for your car

True, but none for the 330i - yet.

pdz
11-19-2003, 12:54 PM
Tanin already said he is going to file all the numbers off the parts when he gets the car. :p

In all honesty, we (Tanin and myself) wonder if the ZHP can do as well to 60 mph as it may need a 2-3 shift. That 2-3 shift killed the G35 6M to 60, but it made up the loss by 80 mph (and was faster than the 330i).

Shifting = lost time

exactly.

higher redlines are our friends. :D

if i could get an extra 1000rpms on my engine, it would work some wonders to let me stay in gear longer per shift. would need some serious tweaking, though.

it would also help the slug, aka the xiT.

Jeff_DML
11-19-2003, 12:59 PM
exactly.

higher redlines are our friends. :D

if i could get an extra 1000rpms on my engine, it would work some wonders to let me stay in gear longer per shift. would need some serious tweaking, though.

it would also help the slug, aka the xiT.

my 5 speed is nice and widely spaced, you want to trade? :p

Tanin
11-19-2003, 01:38 PM
Ask him to bring the car down to the next techsession. I will not publish the results of the inspection online, it's just to satisfy Paddle.Shift's and my curiosity.

It's good that a SCTS member is getting a ZHP, we can finally put that stupid question to bed. Heck, that ZHP may be as popular at the next TechSession as the Z4 from the last one.

(Do not fret ZHP owners, we at SCTS have vowed NOT to further the ZHP discussion online, it is purely to satisfy our own curiosity.)


My next 330 w/ marketing package will be available for complete inspection. I will authorize all but the "parking lot curb clearance" test.


Emission and I were both surprised with the results but I feel confident with the #***8217;s.
I did find the best way to launch the 330i (with minimal wheel spin) is side stepping the clutch at just under 3k. Anything more than that may look/sound cool but is wasted in white smoke.

Ps. The Yokohama AVS ES 100***8217;s on my car do an awesome job off the line. I think you would be hard pressed to find anything better for the $.

SONET
11-19-2003, 02:14 PM
Interesting test results Emission, thanks for posting them.

This is just a shot in the dark, but I think that some of these mods just make the power curve more 'peaky', which would explain the feeling of more power when you add the mod. Even though there isn't much more power available, it ramps up differently which tricks the butt-dyno into thinking it has more power. My guess is that in order to get that 'peak', the tuners sacrafice power from a different part of the power band - which isn't always a good thing in the real world unless you're matching it to a track or something (which you would normally do with gearing anyway). :dunno:

I hope the temperature is similar when you go out and test the ZHP (does that timer compensate for outside air temp/altitude?).

Congrats Tanin - looking forward to seeing that ZHP up in the air. :thumbup:



--SONET

Emission
11-19-2003, 03:05 PM
I hope the temperature is similar when you go out and test the ZHP (does that timer compensate for outside air temp/altitude?).

--SONET

The test area is about a mile from the ocean, in an agricultural area known for consistent temps. It rarely deviates much from 45 F - 55 F in the winter. Most likely, the ZHP will get tested in Jan.

The timer does not compensate for outside temp. My altitude is about 15 feet, which is excellent for testing.

AF
11-19-2003, 03:27 PM
Thanks for posting those results . . . I am really surprised the mods didn't help make the car quicker.

I only have a CAI but I would say my car feels slightly quicker with it :dunno:


I guess it must be the extra sound that gives the illusion of being quicker.

Tanin, did the butt dyno feel faster with the mods or without the mods ?

flashinthepan
11-19-2003, 03:32 PM
Stock vs. Mod 330i = No difference!

Doesnt surprise me at all !

Thanks for the data !!!

:thumbup:

Tanin
11-19-2003, 03:50 PM
Thanks for posting those results . . . I am really surprised the mods didn't help make the car quicker.

I only have a CAI but I would say my car feels slightly quicker with it :dunno:


I guess it must be the extra sound that gives the illusion of being quicker.

Tanin, did the butt dyno feel faster with the mods or without the mods ?


Butt dyno did feel faster and definitely sounded meaner than stock. I would have put my money on the 330 w/ mods for better performance #***8217;s ( Emission and I both felt we would get @ 6.1 to 60 "stock"). The 0-60 was a surprise but felt confident the car ***8220;had***8221; to be quicker through the gear up top. What really blew me away was after we graphed out the entire run and found the stock 330 was quicker. Understand that I did 4 runs with and without the mods and took the 2 best of 4 and averaged them. The stock 330 ran a best of 5.82/14.42 and with mods the best time was 5.87/14.57. Granted the additional weight for fuel may play with the #***8217;s but very insignificant.

Emission
11-19-2003, 04:04 PM
Something a bit more interesting... I've added the Porsche and X5 numbers on the sheet.

My Porsche Turbo is a 4-speed manual. Long gears. There is a shift (1-2) at 45 mph, and another (2-3) at 85 mph. You can see how my times slowed as I shifted the old box!

The X5 was pretty easy to launch. Hold the brake, a bit of gas, then let it go. The gas light was on (saving valuable pounds).

Tanin
11-19-2003, 04:26 PM
Next week we are going to test a í02 540i Sport 6 speed. Very curious to see how it does.


Sorry Emission, I guess I should ask you first.

doeboy
11-19-2003, 04:40 PM
What about engine response.... did it feel more free-reving after the mods or no?

I'd hate to think the mods were purely placebo... :eeps:

Nick325xiT 5spd
11-19-2003, 04:46 PM
The ZHP could have a 3.46 rear end and still make 60 in second gear. The final drive ratio is a HUGE disappointment, IMHO.

flashinthepan
11-19-2003, 04:52 PM
The ZHP could have a 3.46 rear end and still make 60 in second gear. The final drive ratio is a HUGE disappointment, IMHO.

Nick,

Would you think a reg 330 (225hp) can hit 60 in 2nd with the 3.46 or no ??

Kaz
11-19-2003, 04:54 PM
The ZHP could have a 3.46 rear end and still make 60 in second gear. The final drive ratio is a HUGE disappointment, IMHO.

It can? Does the tranny have way totally different ratios? I'd need to jack up my redline somwhere north of 7000 to get to 60 with my 3.46.

Tanin
11-19-2003, 05:02 PM
It can? Does the tranny have way totally different ratios? I'd need to jack up my redline somwhere north of 7000 to get to 60 with my 3.46.


My car will touch 60 in second with @6.6k and need 3rd just past 90 mph.

EZ
11-19-2003, 05:02 PM
It's good that a SCTS member is getting a ZHP, we can finally put that stupid question to bed. Heck, that ZHP may be as popular at the next TechSession as the Z4 from the last one.

HACK, please excuse my ignorance, what is SCTS? And where do you have your technical sessions?

doeboy
11-19-2003, 05:04 PM
HACK, please excuse my ignorance, what is SCTS? And where do you have your technical sessions?

So Cal Tech Sessions....

and locations vary... it "roams" from place to place.

Tanin
11-19-2003, 05:11 PM
What about engine response.... did it feel more free-reving after the mods or no?

I'd hate to think the mods were purely placebo... :eeps:

IMO it "felt" better with the mods however the #'s tell a different story.

Placebo...... :dunno:

The best way to make your NA 330 faster is to shave weight. Dump the spare tire, no a/c, no moonroof, remove the seats, plexi-glass all around, .5 gallon tank. Hell, while your at it remove some body panels (doors, trunk...etc) Will save you you close to $1k and your spare part will probably fetch some cash on Ebay

Mid to low 5's shouldn't be a problem ! :thumbup:

The HACK
11-19-2003, 05:15 PM
The ZHP could have a 3.46 rear end and still make 60 in second gear. The final drive ratio is a HUGE disappointment, IMHO.

Are you certain?

The 323Ci has 3.16 rear, and it barely makes 62mph at OEM redline (6,500).

I can make 64mph before running out of RPM at 7,000 in 2nd...But then again, the Getrag units have shorter 1st and 2nd gear.

Even so, the Z4 has 3.09 rear and I believe the same 6 speed ZF transmission (I'd have to double check on both) and it barely clears 62mph at 6,500rpm in 2nd (yes, the Z4 is out of break-in).

SergioK
11-19-2003, 05:29 PM
The 323Ci has 3.16 rear, and it barely makes 62mph at OEM redline (6,500).

Hmm... when I get my car back from Imad's shop I'll have to test that. I could swear that I can do almost 67mph at 6770rpm (the Dinan's chip's redline).

The HACK
11-19-2003, 05:33 PM
Hmm... when I get my car back from Imad's shop I'll have to test that. I could swear that I can do almost 67mph at 6770rpm (the Dinan's chip's redline).

Just make sure there's no law enforcement around. :eeps:

jason330i
11-19-2003, 05:40 PM
it's because you had the wrong mods...

technik stage 1 :thumbup:

Tanin
11-19-2003, 05:41 PM
Sergiok,
Bring your car out here one night and we can run the #'s.



Jason, I would love to see the comparison.
LA to Thousand Oaks is a very short drive for you to make to prove your point. What's your availability?

doeboy
11-19-2003, 05:45 PM
Just make sure there's no law enforcement around. :eeps:

"On the next episode of 'COPS'...." :rofl: :eeps:

Emission
11-19-2003, 05:55 PM
Hmm... when I get my car back from Imad's shop I'll have to test that. I could swear that I can do almost 67mph at 6770rpm (the Dinan's chip's redline).

Sergio, what size tires are you running (compared to stock)? If they are smaller (in diameter), you will see higher speeds. 67 mph in second is pretty damn fast (and pretty rare in a 5-speed).

The HACK
11-19-2003, 05:58 PM
Sergio, what size tires are you running (compared to stock)? If they are smaller (in diameter), you will see higher speeds. 67 mph in second is pretty damn fast (and pretty rare in a 5-speed).

235.40.18s. They're actually OVERSIZED by .4".

And no matter what size rim/tires you're working with, the speed reading on a speedometer is directly related to the RPM. Either Sergio is just euphoric over getting married and can't think straight, or I'm smokin' the good stuff again. :eeps:

On the way home today I'll drop the car into 2nd on the freeway and see where my RPM ends up. :D

EZ
11-19-2003, 06:04 PM
So Cal Tech Sessions....

and locations vary... it "roams" from place to place.

Thanks! May I show up at your next SCTS? I have 2.5K on my 330 (with ZHP), so we could do some tests with it, providing they cause no
harm :confused: and it's not way too far (I live few miles inland from Malibu).

Kaz
11-19-2003, 06:07 PM
Thanks! May I show up at your next SCTS? I have 2.5K on my 330 (with ZHP), so we could do some tests with it, providing they cause no
harm :confused: and it's not way too far (I live few miles inland from Malibu).

We don't do speed test (at least not yet...) so I think you'd want to set something up with Emission and Tanin.

JetBlack330i
11-19-2003, 06:09 PM
How come in your attached spec sheet, HP and torque are identical for both cars? You didn't really dyno them, did you? The whole premise of a CAI is that it increases HP and torque. If they are identical, then the CAI is dead weight, and of course it would slow down the victim, eh, the donor car.

Kaz
11-19-2003, 06:11 PM
How come in your attached spec sheet, HP and torque are identical for both cars? You didn't really dyno them, did you? The whole premise of a CAI is that it increases HP and torque. If they are identical, then the CAI is dead weight, and of course it would slow down the victim, eh, the donor car.

Maybe because it's the same car? And it's not like the CAI weighs 100lb more than the stock airbox or something.

JetBlack330i
11-19-2003, 06:27 PM
Maybe because it's the same car? And it's not like the CAI weighs 100lb more than the stock airbox or something.The point is, if the CAI doesn't add any HP, why use it? Even if it's only 1 lb more, if it doesn't add HP, it's 1 lb of dead weight.
If the dyno says it didn't add any HP, that's one thing, but you can't just assume it won't add any HP.
Even though I agree CAIs won't add any HP because the OEM box is already a CAI, the assumption made in the experiment is wrong.
It's just a nitpick. it doesn't affect the outcome. But your comment is wrongly placed.

Emission
11-19-2003, 06:40 PM
How come in your attached spec sheet, HP and torque are identical for both cars? You didn't really dyno them, did you? The whole premise of a CAI is that it increases HP and torque. If they are identical, then the CAI is dead weight, and of course it would slow down the victim, eh, the donor car.

The spec sheet has manufacturer quoted figures. Weight, HP, and Torque all vary from car to car (manufacturing tolerances). There are claimed numbers (gains) for the exhaust and CAI, but I don't know how accurate they are. For all practical purposes, the numbers at the top of the chart are for my use - just to compare. Most likely, they are all a bit off.

The claimed gains from CAI and exhaust are 8-12 horsepower. :dunno:

No, we never put the car on a dyno - good question.

Jeff_DML
11-19-2003, 06:52 PM
The spec sheet has manufacturer quoted figures. Weight, HP, and Torque all vary from car to car (manufacturing tolerances). There are claimed numbers (gains) for the exhaust and CAI, but I don't know how accurate they are. For all practical purposes, the numbers at the top of the chart are for my use - just to compare. Most likely, they are all a bit off.

The claimed gains from CAI and exhaust are 8-12 horsepower. :dunno:

No, we never put the car on a dyno - good question.

Does the LA BMWCAA have dyno day? SD one does every once in awhile, you guys should come down for the next one.

JetBlack330i
11-19-2003, 06:58 PM
The spec sheet has manufacturer quoted figures. Weight, HP, and Torque all vary from car to car (manufacturing tolerances). There are claimed numbers (gains) for the exhaust and CAI, but I don't know how accurate they are. For all practical purposes, the numbers at the top of the chart are for my use - just to compare. Most likely, they are all a bit off.

The claimed gains from CAI and exhaust are 8-12 horsepower. :dunno:

No, we never put the car on a dyno - good question.I understand perfectly what you did.
Like I said, this was a nitpick comment. Something that jumped out when I saw it and set off my personal sanity check alarm.

The premise for a shoot out like this is that the two cars have different engine outputs. Quoting manufacturer claimed numbers for the stock car is valid, but not for the modified car. If a dyno says the CAI+exhaust have no effect, then sure, that's one thing, but not until then.
Leaving it as N/A would be better, IMHO.
After all, if you start out with the assumption that the engine outputs are the same, there is no point is doing this test. It would be like a shootout between a red 330i and a blue 330i, no?

That nitpick aside, thanks for your post.
You provide real-world validation for what I've always told anyone who would care to argue this point with me. That chips, CAIs and exhausts don't do squat, at least for BMWs.

pdz
11-19-2003, 08:09 PM
i'm glad that E did this test. it's pretty interesting.

just one caveat, though, is that the major magazines adjust all of their clocking sessions to ambient temperature, barometric pressure and so forth so everything is equalized.

using such a more sensitive adjustment equalizer like this, it may display a slight delta between OEM car and non-OEM status car.

Emission
11-19-2003, 09:03 PM
i'm glad that E did this test. it's pretty interesting.

just one caveat, though, is that the major magazines adjust all of their clocking sessions to ambient temperature, barometric pressure and so forth so everything is equalized.

using such a more sensitive adjustment equalizer like this, it may display a slight delta between OEM car and non-OEM status car.

I've "tested" about 15 cars with this G-Timer GT2 device. I've come to realize that every test, with every car, is different. A bit of gravel on the road, or moisture, can mean a huge difference in launch. Cold tires don't stick, and too much air pressure causes less of a contact patch... Headwind, ambient temperature, humidity, etc... on and on and on... all have a say with test results.

You must have noticed that each time a "major" car magazine tests a vehicle, even of the same make and model, they get different times. I'd love to see four identical vehicles tested over four different days. I bet the times would be all over the place.

My point? You can only use these numbers as a guide. My brother and I expected the modified 330i to be faster - especially at higher speeds. We found it to be slower. What does that tell us? Maybe the gas LEVEL made a huge difference. Maybe the gas BRAND made the difference. Maybe we hit more bugs one evening! We'll never know.

The best way to test is side-by-side at a dragstrip. Both vehicles are subject to the same temps, winds, and humidity. One wins, one loses.

pdz
11-19-2003, 09:07 PM
I've "tested" about 15 cars with this G-Timer GT2 device. I've come to realize that every test, with every car, is different. A bit of gravel on the road, or moisture, can mean a huge difference in launch. Cold tires don't stick, and too much air pressure causes less of a contact patch... Headwind, ambient temperature, humidity, etc... on and on and on... all have a say with test results.

You must have noticed that each time a "major" car magazine tests a vehicle, even of the same make and model, they get different times. I'd love to see four identical vehicles tested over four different days. I bet the times would be all over the place.

My point? You can only use these numbers as a guide. My brother and I expected the modified 330i to be faster - especially at higher speeds. We found it to be slower. What does that tell us? Maybe the gas LEVEL made a huge difference. Maybe the gas BRAND made the difference. Maybe we hit more bugs one evening! We'll never know.

The best way to test is side-by-side at a dragstrip. Both vehicles are subject to the same temps, winds, and humidity. One wins, one loses.

yup. and every time there is a compendium in the back of car and driver, for example, each measurement is with an n=1. normalized, but still incredibly anecdotal.

i know they tend to test in both directions of a straightaway, but still......your point is incredibly valid. it's like comparing dyno plots on different days and different machines. guidelines, but not exactly comparative.

Kaz
11-19-2003, 09:26 PM
Am I the only person who has absolutely no idea what Jetblack is trying to day? It doesn't make a lick of difference if the car being tested had 225HP or 2. The same car was tested both with and without the mods and the one with was slower. That "proves" (within all the variables we've discussed) that the mods don't let the engine make any more power.

1RADBMR
11-19-2003, 09:28 PM
The spec sheet has manufacturer quoted figures. Weight, HP, and Torque all vary from car to car (manufacturing tolerances). There are claimed numbers (gains) for the exhaust and CAI, but I don't know how accurate they are. For all practical purposes, the numbers at the top of the chart are for my use - just to compare. Most likely, they are all a bit off.

The claimed gains from CAI and exhaust are 8-12 horsepower. :dunno:

No, we never put the car on a dyno - good question.

Do dyno results matter, if real world performance is not affected? Great post...and confirms ones observations of the real world: Where there are bucks to be made, and folks who have nothing better to do with their bucks, the bucks will be separated from the folks...or something like that. :D

Kaz
11-19-2003, 09:32 PM
Granted, this is the Fest and not Fanatics or something, but I'm surprised by the lack of people accusing Emission of being full of **** and that something is wrong with him because the modded car was slower.

31st330i
11-19-2003, 09:41 PM
Stock vs. Mod 330i = No difference!

didn't some guy named 1stDinan330i say that a long time ago? :p

actually, my car does feel slightly faster with the conforti intake but it has never been proven as you have done. the gear ratio change did a lot more. the car feels pretty fast now.

The HACK
11-19-2003, 09:43 PM
Dude, them's dope mods yo. No fockkin' way the stock piece of cR@p can smoke that hot pimpin' ride, fo shizzle my nizzle.:thumbdwn:

Happy Kaz?

visor
11-19-2003, 10:23 PM
Dude, them's dope mods yo. No fockkin' way the stock piece of cR@p can smoke that hot pimpin' ride, fo shizzle my nizzle.:thumbdwn:

Happy Kaz?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

racerdave
11-19-2003, 10:45 PM
Granted, this is the Fest and not Fanatics or something, but I'm surprised by the lack of people accusing Emission of being full of **** and that something is wrong with him because the modded car was slower.

Oh my! Ain't that the truth! :rofl:

Isn't it amazing how different boards have different personalities?

Back on topic, I totally agree with the mod-vs-stock point this thread is making. There is almost always some kind of drawback to any *performance* mod. Now comfort mods (M3 wheel, even a short-shift kit) are another story if they help you enjoy the car more. And with most of these CAI's and exhausts, who's to say that some of these companies can do a lot better than the factory?

After modding cars in the past, I'm done when it comes to the suspension, intake, exhaust. The factory spends a lot of time and $$ to get the best compromise between power and refinement, so I'm leaving it to the experts... the factory engineers, not some small-time shops.

That said, I am considering some mods when I get my 325i: M3 wheel, UUC Evo3 SSK, and torsen LSD. But those are all items I think of as "feel" items that will impact how I interact with the car on a daily basis without suffering refinement or noise penalties. But I'm not touching the engine or suspension... I can mod my kart if I choose to mod something.

So in the end, I'm not surprised that when you actually put a watch on it, the stock is the same or better than a modded car. It shows what the butt dyno is really worth.

pdz
11-20-2003, 06:22 AM
now that we have 330i data (solid, too, with at least 4 runs averaged), it's going to get really hot in the kitchen after the ZHP is broken in and E gets numbers for that thing.

:D

Artslinger
11-20-2003, 07:06 AM
Hmmm... this thread has giving me a idea, buy stock mufflers and airfilters, slap my own marketing sticker, and claim its good for two seconds off *0-60 times.


*disclaimer (in very very small type)... Tests where performed with a stock car with five 100lb bags of sand in the trunk driven by a 80 year old lady, versus our "brand here" muffler and airfilter equipped car without the sand bags driven by a professional driver.

JetBlack330i
11-20-2003, 07:29 AM
Am I the only person who has absolutely no idea what Jetblack is trying to day? It doesn't make a lick of difference if the car being tested had 225HP or 2. The same car was tested both with and without the mods and the one with was slower. That "proves" (within all the variables we've discussed) that the mods don't let the engine make any more power.Yes. :bustingup

Seriously... it may be the same VIN, but it's not the same car. One was modded. If the mod was tires, then sure, the engine output is not affected. In this case, the mods (CAI and exhaust) claim to affect engine output. It goes to methodology rigour, and therefore, credibility.
As Emission said, testing the same car over different days will yield significantly different results. Maybe what we're seeing is the best day for the OEM car and the worst day for the modded car. It doesn't "prove" that mods don't generate more HP. If it did, we wouldn't need dynos. The GTech thingy that Emission used can calculate HP based on runs.
If you still insist in saying that the results "prove" something, to be consistent, you should say that the results "prove" that mods slow down your car, and by implication, reduces your engine output. But you're carefull to only say that "mods don't let the engine make any more power".
When magazines do a full report on a modified car, they don't use the OEM numbers. They list either the dyno numbers or the mod's claimed numbers.
I arrest my case.

racerdave
11-20-2003, 09:37 AM
Sorry, I still don't think the results are meaningless. Flawed? Maybe.

But it still shows that in real-world, day-to-day driving, the differences are not amazing with the mods they spoke of.

Dynos are nice, but they're not perfect either.

Bottom line, I don't think the mods they spoke of (exhaust, CAI) are worth the $$. But that's my choice.

To each his own.

SergioK
11-20-2003, 10:07 AM
Just make sure there's no law enforcement around. :eeps:

Nah! I don't think the CHP would give me a ticket for going 67 in a 65! :D

DaveH
11-20-2003, 10:34 AM
Emission:

Nice information, but you may wish to correct your chart heading to "Weight/Hp". I know, I have too much time on my hands today



:angel:

Emission
11-20-2003, 10:42 AM
To prove cars have good and bad days, and that other factors can make as much of a difference as a mod, I am thinking of testing the same car over a three week period (my X5, for example). I will test it at the end of each tank of gas (so the fuel level is the same). Since the car is an automatic, that will rule out driver ability - and just leave the vehicle and environment as variables.

I am going to do it. My results will be posted later next month.

Hopefully, by that time, the ZHP will be broken-in...

Emission
11-20-2003, 10:52 AM
Emission:

Nice information, but you may wish to correct your chart heading to "Weight/Hp". I know, I have too much time on my hands today

:angel:

OK. I will change it. That "chart" actually has about 15 cars on it (mostly Nissan/Inifiniti vehicles). I use it for reference when I write. I never expected to be posting it... ha ha...

Revised chart (with some changes) is below...

pdz
11-20-2003, 10:53 AM
i can't wait for the ZHP testing because of the sheer furor it will cause.

:thumbup:

Kaz
11-20-2003, 11:00 AM
I still don't see how someone could be so hung up on not using dyno-generated HP. First, dyno runs have just as much variability from run to run as a road run. They are also different from dyno to dyno, and the results can't be compared to manufacturer's numbers since they're measured differently.

Tanin
11-20-2003, 11:20 AM
Considering it***8217;s impossible to have a 100% controlled environment, there will always be different variables when testing. Best day or worst day for testing is something to consider when looking at the results but realistically we had ***8220;nearly identical ***8220; environments.

Our test was focused on 0-100 #***8217;s not engine output or claimed HP. For all we know the mods did add HP and increased ***8220;engine***8221; gains but our test showed insignificant or no improvement in 0-100.

Ps. the 31 lb RD Sways and I just took off my car were sitting in my trunk when I test the stock car. For all we know the added weight over the rear tires helped. :confused:

pdz
11-20-2003, 11:31 AM
oh, i think that the 0-100mph is probably one of the better measurements here.

:thumbup:

Emission
11-20-2003, 11:38 AM
oh, i think that the 0-100mph is probably one of the better measurements here.

:thumbup:

The G-Timer shuts off after 1/4 mile, and the 330i can't break 100 in the 1/4 :mad: ... so the max speed I can record is 0-90 mph.

The revised chart (a few posts up) has a 20-90 mph line. This is an excellent representation of acceleration independant of launch.

pdz
11-20-2003, 11:55 AM
The G-Timer shuts off after 1/4 mile, and the 330i can't break 100 in the 1/4 :mad: ... so the max speed I can record is 0-90 mph.

The revised chart (a few posts up) has a 20-90 mph line. This is an excellent representation of acceleration independant of launch.

oops... you know what i meant.

i just tend to think, when using the same accelerometer for different vehicles, that measuring the acceleration in the 90s undermines certain cars' abilities to hold gear longer in 2nd gear as by 90 most (ALL?) cars require two shifts....so, it equalizes things a bit.

SergioK
11-20-2003, 12:04 PM
Either Sergio is just euphoric over getting married and can't think straight, or I'm smokin' the good stuff again.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, maybe I am smoking the good stuff. I could swear the car can do upwards of 65mph in 2nd. Then again, I'm usually accelerating at such a high rate of speed that the needle is probably at around 60-65 when I throw it from 2nd to 3rd. That 5-7mph diff probably takes less than a second and by then I'm already in 3rd.

(I did just this at the start of last weekend's 20 minute sprint race just as the flag dropped, damn that was fun!!!) :thumbup:

SergioK
11-20-2003, 12:06 PM
Sergiok,
Bring your car out here one night and we can run the #'s.


Sounds like a plan... what days are best?

Emission
11-20-2003, 12:06 PM
oops... you know what i meant.

i just tend to think, when using the same accelerometer for different vehicles, that measuring the acceleration in the 90s undermines certain cars' abilities to hold gear longer in 2nd gear as by 90 most (ALL?) cars require two shifts....so, it equalizes things a bit.

OK, let me add two more columns to my spreadsheet. Notice the 6-speed Infiniti and 350Z.

The G35 is slower to 60, but faster to 80. Gearing.

The Z had a bad launch (it spun the tires a ton). It also needed a shift to hit 60. Faster once going.

Emission
11-20-2003, 12:08 PM
Sounds like a plan... what days are best?

Days? Ha ha...

Nights.

We operate under the cover of darkness. No wind, zero traffic, less enforcement. Much safer, for all involved.

SergioK
11-20-2003, 12:13 PM
Days? Ha ha...

Nights.

We operate under the cover of darkness. No wind, zero traffic, less enforcement. Much safer, for all involved.


Haha, yes, I should have written 'what night is best'. :p

italia550i
11-20-2003, 12:25 PM
Hey I would donate my car for some runs... you know for the sake of science and all. ;) Let me know and I will head on up.

Would love to findout that all the money I spent on mods were for absolutely nothing.

BTW my car hits about 71 mph in second gear... but it's a step.

pdz
11-20-2003, 12:47 PM
excellent!

thanks, E.

two comments:

1. long live the porkchop turbo, in whatever iteration. :D

2. the Z is slow. i dunno if it's gearing, weight, or a stupidly low redline. but it's slow. the S52 M coupe is right there with it, basically with ~240 "BMW hp".

Jeff_DML
11-20-2003, 01:01 PM
OK, let me add two more columns to my spreadsheet. Notice the 6-speed Infiniti and 350Z.

The G35 is slower to 60, but faster to 80. Gearing.

The Z had a bad launch (it spun the tires a ton). It also needed a shift to hit 60. Faster once going.

:thumbup:

do you have the numbers for the G35 coupe?

thx

The HACK
11-20-2003, 01:07 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, maybe I am smoking the good stuff. I could swear the car can do upwards of 65mph in 2nd. Then again, I'm usually accelerating at such a high rate of speed that the needle is probably at around 60-65 when I throw it from 2nd to 3rd. That 5-7mph diff probably takes less than a second and by then I'm already in 3rd.

(I did just this at the start of last weekend's 20 minute sprint race just as the flag dropped, damn that was fun!!!) :thumbup:

I left the car in 2nd up to 7,000rpm redline lastnight on the way home, and it hit an indicated ~66mph (needle just moved past the hashmark) before fuel cut-off.

Maybe your speedo's the one that's smoking the good stuff? :dunno: :D

Jeff_DML
11-20-2003, 01:22 PM
They're in the pdf that he linked to in the post you quoted... go back a few posts and you should find it.

that is the sedan not the coupe? :dunno:

racerdave
11-20-2003, 01:26 PM
that is the sedan not the coupe? :dunno:

Man! You read my reply before I (DOH) re-read it, realized that and deleted my post. :D

Sorry about that.

doeboy
11-20-2003, 01:52 PM
i can't wait for the ZHP testing because of the sheer furor it will cause.

:thumbup:

: popcorn:

SergioK
11-20-2003, 02:26 PM
I left the car in 2nd up to 7,000rpm redline lastnight on the way home, and it hit an indicated ~66mph (needle just moved past the hashmark) before fuel cut-off.

Maybe your speedo's the one that's smoking the good stuff? :dunno: :D

Interesting... although my speedo is practically dead on. GPS verified!

Emission
11-20-2003, 02:35 PM
Here is the chart with:

Porsche
BMW 330i (stock)
BMW 330i (mod)
G35 Sedan
G35 Coupe
350Z

The G35 Coupe is a bit heavier than the Sedan. The coupe lost .1 at the launch (tires didn't grip as well as the sedan for some reason). They are both identical to 90 mph (I seem to recall).

Jeff_DML
11-20-2003, 03:04 PM
Here is the chart with:

Porsche
BMW 330i (stock)
BMW 330i (mod)
G35 Sedan
G35 Coupe
350Z

The G35 Coupe is a bit heavier than the Sedan. The coupe lost .1 at the launch (tires didn't grip as well as the sedan for some reason). They are both identical to 90 mph (I seem to recall).

thanks :thumbup:

interesting...coupe has more power, guess not enough to make up for the additional weight :rolleyes:

Andy
11-20-2003, 07:35 PM
Emission, thanks for posting the results of your tests. I'll be honest, they surprised me. Note to self... don't waste money on CAI and exhaust, better off with a 3.46 diff and/or FI. :D

I'm just as eager to hear the results of the ZHP test. In my opinion, it's the 3.07 diff over the 2.93 diff that will make the difference. Put a 2.93 in the ZHP and the ZHP would more then likely be slower due to the 18" wheels being heavier. The cam and higher redline might help the ZHP, but not by much.

pdz
11-20-2003, 07:58 PM
Emission, thanks for posting the results of your tests. I'll be honest, they surprised me. Note to self... don't waste money on CAI and exhaust, better off with a 3.46 diff and/or FI. :D

I'm just as eager to hear the results of the ZHP test. In my opinion, it's the 3.07 diff over the 2.93 diff that will make the difference. Put a 2.93 in the ZHP and the ZHP would more then likely be slower due to the 18" wheels being heavier. The cam and higher redline might help the ZHP, but not by much.

well...i think 3.46 is excessive......i'd settle for a 3.23:1 or 3.38:1 (you could grab a 3.23 from the boneyard and the 3.38 from dinan or metricmechanix).....and still have reasonable revs on longer highway trips.

we're agreed, though. :thumbup:

31st330i
11-20-2003, 08:02 PM
well...i think 3.46 is excessive......i'd settle for a 3.23:1 or 3.38:1 (you could grab a 3.23 from the boneyard and the 3.38 from dinan or metricmechanix).....and still have reasonable revs on longer highway trips.

I just swapped out for a 3.15 diff. am please with that mod. car feels pretty fast now.

pdz
11-20-2003, 08:02 PM
Here is the chart with:

Porsche
BMW 330i (stock)
BMW 330i (mod)
G35 Sedan
G35 Coupe
350Z

The G35 Coupe is a bit heavier than the Sedan. The coupe lost .1 at the launch (tires didn't grip as well as the sedan for some reason). They are both identical to 90 mph (I seem to recall).

it is amazing to see the 90mph times.

BMW hp sure is big HP and stomps out the Nissan hp......where on earth does 225hp = 260/280hp?

Emission
11-20-2003, 08:26 PM
it is amazing to see the 90mph times.

BMW hp sure is big HP and stomps out the Nissan hp......where on earth does 225hp = 260/280hp?

Both Infiniti vehicles are bigger and heavier (but they should still be faster when you look at weight/hp ratios). Also, keep in mind these are press vehicles. 8-10,000 hard miles on each. Very hard miles.

I wonder what the gearing is like in the G35's?

BMW has always been conservative with their acceleration times. I wonder if they are also conservative with their HP ratings. Maybe they are, and all those aftermarket guys who put their crap on, then dyno, are really seeing the "real" BWM figures, not their product improvements?

Something else to ponder.

The HACK
11-20-2003, 09:36 PM
Interesting... although my speedo is practically dead on. GPS verified!

My speedo must be off then. Because theoretically, both our cars will have exactly the same speed at the same RPM (same engine/tranny/diff/tire size). I tried it again today, and again, bounced off the limiter at exactly indicated 66mph. And I've got 250 more revs than you.

I have to say, the 2.5 liter makes a sweet sound at 7,000 rpm. :D

SergioK
11-21-2003, 09:42 AM
I have to say, the 2.5 liter makes a sweet sound at 7,000 rpm. :D

I think my rev limiter kicks in at 6770 but even still, from 6250 rpm to the cut off it makes the sweetest sound. :thumbup:

racerdave
11-21-2003, 09:53 AM
BMW has always been conservative with their acceleration times. I wonder if they are also conservative with their HP ratings. Maybe they are, and all those aftermarket guys who put their crap on, then dyno, are really seeing the "real" BWM figures, not their product improvements?

Something else to ponder.

Yeah, I think that the BMW dynos must be very stingy. Almost all of their vehicles perform like something with 20-30 HP more. It wouldn't surprise me if they had some dynos that were skewed low at the factory.

Tanin
11-21-2003, 10:40 AM
it is amazing to see the 90mph times.

BMW hp sure is big HP and stomps out the Nissan hp......where on earth does 225hp = 260/280hp?




I agree. After comparing times and HP from the other cars I was extremely impressed with the 330.


Although...............we must consider the fact the 330 just had a better driver :thumbup: ( must have been my "Death Race 2000" shifts ) :D

SergioK
11-21-2003, 01:42 PM
Yeah, I think that the BMW dynos must be very stingy. Almost all of their vehicles perform like something with 20-30 HP more. It wouldn't surprise me if they had some dynos that were skewed low at the factory.

Actually, I think most european manufacturers benchtest their powerplants via electric generators. They simply see how many kilowatts the engine will put out. Then, using a conversion formula of 1kw=1.341hp they come up with their horsepower ratings.

Akakubi
11-21-2003, 02:42 PM
: popcorn:

Interesting discussion. :thumbup: Yep, Intakes and especially exhaust on the 330's offer very marginal gains. The 330 exhaust was designed to be as a free-flow system when BMW upgraded the car from the 328. In fact the Intake and exhaust accounted for 65% (I think) of total HP gains over the 328.

It's mostly about sound, weight saving and looks, as OEM intake and exhaust are too "quiet" and heavy.

Now, if you decide to do software upgrade, headers, TB, sport cats/straight pipe, etc then the a/m intake and exhaust will be more beneficial as they potentially can flow more air/gas through the system. But to dig into the gains you must upgrade other components as well.

Now for the 350Z.... :D

I watche Best Motoring Japanese car-testing video recently where they tested out 330i MII (I suspect it's a ZHP in Japan), 350Z, G35 Coupe, RX-8 and S2000 head to head on the track and mini AutoX.

330i killed all of them at the AutoX easily. The 350Z was the slowest, beaten soundly by the Coupe. :yikes:

Then on the track (tight Tsukuba circuit), they omitted the Bimmer, but the G35 beat the crap out of the 350Z again. I wonder why... :dunno:

The testers also did not rave about the car calling it more of a poser/beginner than a true sports car.

pdz
11-21-2003, 03:10 PM
: popcorn:

Interesting discussion. :thumbup: Yep, Intakes and especially exhaust on the 330's offer very marginal gains. The 330 exhaust was designed to be as a free-flow system when BMW upgraded the car from the 328. In fact the Intake and exhaust accounted for 65% (I think) of total HP gains over the 328.

It's mostly about sound, weight saving and looks, as OEM intake and exhaust are too "quiet" and heavy.

Now, if you decide to do software upgrade, headers, TB, sport cats/straight pipe, etc then the a/m intake and exhaust will be more beneficial as they potentially can flow more air/gas through the system. But to dig into the gains you must upgrade other components as well.

Now for the 350Z.... :D

I watche Best Motoring Japanese car-testing video recently where they tested out 330i MII (I suspect it's a ZHP in Japan), 350Z, G35 Coupe, RX-8 and S2000 head to head on the track and mini AutoX.

330i killed all of them at the AutoX easily. The 350Z was the slowest, beaten soundly by the Coupe. :yikes:

Then on the track (tight Tsukuba circuit), they omitted the Bimmer, but the G35 beat the crap out of the 350Z again. I wonder why... :dunno:

The testers also did not rave about the car calling it more of a poser/beginner than a true sports car.

i think many people have written about this in the press, but the 350Z is not a sports car. it IS a GT vehicle. historically, there may be cases where a sports car has been assembled from a hodgepodge of parts from more "common" vehicles, but the Z suffers from the modern platform sharing. it uses the same chassis that has to support the G35 and FX vehicles and nissan doesn't put enough money into aluminum chassis components. so, it lost the weight battle.

nissan is also strapped to differentiate (in a major way) the VQ engine. look, it's a solid engine in the maxima, but not in the Z. it has a low redline, tame compression and tame cams. its displacement cannot save it from mediocrity in the sports car arena; gearing may play a role here, but not as much as weight and the engine.

one of the beauties of BMW is that when you pony up the money for a 3 series, you know you're getting a proprietary platform that isn't derived from some lowest cost bidder econocar a la lexus or infiniti or acura. and it shows.

the cars are, in general, brilliant.

ALEX325i
11-21-2003, 03:14 PM
it's just too darn hard to get anything more out of n/a engines without serious hardware.

(not so true with forced induction --> :D )

True. Nothing compares to forced induction. Howerver, UNICHIP, a pretty popular mod here in Brazil, seems to be very effective. Check out these results (Passat V6):

http://www.multiturbo.com.br/images/Pass28P.jpg

http://www.multiturbo.com.br/images/Pass28T.jpg

fastfour
11-24-2003, 02:31 AM
New member here. Was hoping to see more dyno's posted. Here is mine w/ a drop in K&N filter:

http://a1.cpimg.com/image/5B/EA/24108891-bd79-02000180-.jpg

Zach

JetBlack330i
11-24-2003, 10:27 AM
Thanks for the dyno chart. BTW, which is which?
Are you saying that the drop in K&N filter does nothing to power/torque? I don't see anything significant there. The differences are within background noise levels.

Pinecone
11-24-2003, 04:11 PM
Actually, I think most european manufacturers benchtest their powerplants via electric generators. They simply see how many kilowatts the engine will put out. Then, using a conversion formula of 1kw=1.341hp they come up with their horsepower ratings.

Nope. They use dynos just like everyone else.

It is just that they use the metric system. HP and pounds - feet of torque are English units measures.

KW and Newtons are the metric units.

Pinecone
11-24-2003, 04:12 PM
Oops, Newton meters for torque.

blackhawk77
12-06-2003, 06:33 PM
Yes, we will test the ZHP in the identical manner, on the identical road. Before upgrades, and after. He is thinking of putting the muffler and CAI on the ZHP. They may not add speed, but they sound pretty cool!

Unfortunately, it may take about a month to break-in the vehicle before I can post numbers. :mad:

-----




Is it time for an update yet? I await your results to help in better understanding this great ZHP problem. :)

Also-- What kind of track/course are you doing this on? Your post eludes to conducting it on a public byway ("identical road") and, if thats true, you better get ready for some hate mail from Mr. Imola--mbr129, because he's gonna freak out....... :bawling: :rofl:





-----

Emission
12-06-2003, 07:11 PM
-----
Is it time for an update yet? I await your results to help in better understanding this great ZHP problem. :)

Also-- What kind of track/course are you doing this on? Your post eludes to conducting it on a public byway ("identical road") and, if thats true, you better get ready for some hate mail from Mr. Imola--mbr129, because he's gonna freak out....... :bawling: :rofl:
-----

The ZHP has about 800 miles on it as of today. We don't want to "test" it until it breaks 1200 or so... even then it will still be "green" as far as loosening up.

Yes, it is a public road. Don't be thinking a well traveled highway - it is a rural farming road that is untraveled at night. It just happens to be 9000 feet long, with no cross streets, and perfectly smooth (and level) asphalt! :D

Tanin
12-06-2003, 11:40 PM
The ZHP has about 800 miles on it as of today. :D

Just broke 900 tonight taking the long way to Blockbuster and an 8 mile detour on the way home :)

blackhawk77
12-08-2003, 04:03 AM
The ZHP has about 800 miles on it as of today. We don't want to "test" it until it breaks 1200 or so... even then it will still be "green" as far as loosening up.

Yes, it is a public road. Don't be thinking a well traveled highway - it is a rural farming road that is untraveled at night. It just happens to be 9000 feet long, with no cross streets, and perfectly smooth (and level) asphalt! :D
-



Cool--Let us know when you have the numbers. :drive: :thumbup:




-

Kempe
12-08-2003, 11:43 PM
Must waste space and chime in here. Thanks, great thread.

Wallenrod
01-10-2004, 06:01 PM
So is the ZHP broken in yet? Any interesting results or did I miss it and it's been mentioned somewhere else?
Really curious. Just something to kill time as I wait for Spring and my ZHP ED.

Emission
01-10-2004, 07:19 PM
Yes, the ZHP passed 1400 miles... and we tested it.

Results... :rolleyes:

I will start a new thread, with detailed results (all the numbers) tomorrow.

AF
01-10-2004, 07:32 PM
Yes, the ZHP passed 1400 miles... and we tested it.

Results... :rolleyes:

I will start a new thread, with detailed results (all the numbers) tomorrow.
At least tell us the 0-60 so we know how it compared to the regular 330i .. . please :bow:

Plaz
01-10-2004, 08:11 PM
TOMORROW! ??? :yikes: :mad: :nono:


:D

I have to agree.

!

Emission
01-10-2004, 11:46 PM
My brother (Tanin) and I need to discuss the results. We are meeting tomorrow morning for an early Malibu/Mulholland run (I'm in the 930, he's in a 360!) to enjoy the nice weather and carve some canyons - we'll discuss how to post the results then.

Sorry. :dunno:

JetBlack330i
01-11-2004, 12:01 AM
As in Ferrari Modena 360? Diam! :droll:

Emission
01-11-2004, 12:12 AM
As in Ferrari Modena 360? Diam! :droll:

Yes. :D

I'll post some pics tomorrow.

JetBlack330i
01-11-2004, 02:50 PM
:hi:

johnnygraphic
01-28-2005, 08:20 PM
Wait!!! I just started reading this thread only to get to 'I'll post results tomorrow'...with NOTHING!!!

I need closure!!! O.K. Not really, just curious!

Johnny

Emission
01-28-2005, 10:14 PM
You guys dig up these old threads and make me look bad!

Well, of course I have the results, and the ZHP was FASTER than the modified 330i (CAI and Exhaust) but SLOWER than the stock 330i. Here are the numbers:

Tested

A: 2001 330i (5-speed, SP) STOCK
B: 2001 330i (5-speed, SP) CAI, Exhaust
C: 2004 330i (6-speed, ZHP) STOCK

The '01 cars are identical, just before and after mods. The '04 had 1,400 miles on it at the time of the test (still green). Identical driver/road/conditions. Here were the results:

0-30, 0-60, 0-90, 1/4@speed

A: 2.04, 5.85, 12.51, 14.45 @ 95.40
B: 2.01, 5.91, 13.26, 14.60 @ 92.70
C: 2.09, 6.04, 12.81, 14.57 @ 94.40

The STOCK '01 330i was very fast. Once the mods were put on... it got slower. The ZHP started to catch the '01 at higher speeds...

We are going to retest the ZHP soon. It has another 10K on the clock, so it should do pretty well.

doeboy
01-28-2005, 10:55 PM
but the ZHP now has some mods too doesn't it? or did you guys go back to stock?

Emission
01-28-2005, 11:05 PM
but the ZHP now has some mods too doesn't it? or did you guys go back to stock?

The ZHP has BORLA exhaust and CAI. So, yes, it's not stock anymore...

Here, this will really stir the pot... let me add my G35 to the mix:


A: 2001 330i (5-speed, SP) STOCK
B: 2001 330i (5-speed, SP) CAI, Exhaust
C: 2004 330i (6-speed, ZHP) STOCK
D: 2004 G35 (6-speed, Sport) STOCK

0-30, 0-60, 0-90, 1/4@speed

A: 2.04, 5.85, 12.51, 14.45 @ 95.40
B: 2.01, 5.91, 13.26, 14.60 @ 92.70
C: 2.09, 6.04, 12.81, 14.57 @ 94.40
D: 1.85, 6.07, 12.30, 14.30 @ 97.22

The G35 has more horses but the tires are only 215's (compared to 255's on the ZHP). It obviously hooked up quite well (note the 0-30 time). The G35 CANNOT hit 60 mph without a shift to 3rd, so this kills the 0-60 time. HP (and a Cd. of .26) help the 1/4 mile...

doeboy
01-28-2005, 11:12 PM
Here, this will really stir the pot... let me add my G35 to the mix:


Nice... :)

Andy
01-29-2005, 08:13 AM
... let me add my G35 to the mix:
coupe or sedan?

EDIT : Nevermind I just read your sig and saw that it's a sedan.

ObD
01-29-2005, 10:58 AM
How about doing some slalom tests for further : popcorn:

Chris90
01-29-2005, 11:11 AM
Don't you have to change the software to see any benefit?

The problem is not just N/A engines, it's OBDII.

Emission
01-29-2005, 01:10 PM
How about doing some slalom tests for further : popcorn:

Sure, if there was some way to even have a bit of consistency in the results. Even with the acceleration tests, there are so many variables that can blow the test parameters (humidity, temperature, moisture or dirt on the road, tire temp, tire pressure, fuel quality, air filter age, production variances, etc...) that the numbers really aren't carved in granite...

I'd like to see R&T, C&D, or MT test five IDENTICAL 330i's and see how spread the numbers are!

dankykev04
01-29-2005, 05:04 PM
wait, so the whole point of this 6 page long thread is to prove that aftermarket parts for which we pay thousands of dollars for do ABSOLUTELY nothing to the performance of a car?? that doesnt really make sense, i dont mean to be an @sshole or anything, but i mean, i thought that was the whole premise for the "aftermarket part" industry. and how is it possible that the ZHP does absoultely nothing. $5,000 for a performance package that doesnt help performace?? :dunno: i for one have been in many modified cars, before and after the mods, and have always noticed a difference in speed. if these parts do nothing, what parts do actually add performace besides turbos and superchargers? :dunno:

BigRain
01-29-2005, 05:45 PM
I love this thread, it makes me much HAPPIER with my car knowing how it performs against ZHP's. :angel:

Emission
01-29-2005, 06:36 PM
wait, so the whole point of this 6 page long thread is to prove that aftermarket parts for which we pay thousands of dollars for do ABSOLUTELY nothing to the performance of a car?? that doesnt really make sense, i dont mean to be an @sshole or anything, but i mean, i thought that was the whole premise for the "aftermarket part" industry. and how is it possible that the ZHP does absoultely nothing.

Yup, just think millions of dollars are spend on "instant" weight loss pills... millions on "gas and oil treatments"... they make the people FEEL BETTER, but nobody said they have to work.

When I was a kid, a new pair of shoes made me run faster... who says a CAI doesn't have the same effect?

Oh, the ZHP does have more horsepower. The question is can you actually feel it (or measure it)? The extra weight of the wheels could offset it!

Kaz
01-29-2005, 07:06 PM
Consider this. Look at the dyno graphs from any car that's been posted here over the years. Genreally, there is upto 3-4% deviation between runs. And these are conducted on a machine, and under presumably unchanging conditions. The ubiquitous "ass dyno" probably has a resolution of 10% or so in terms of horsepower. Meaning anything you feel below that is probably more what you believe is happening, with some influence from what your "ass dyno" detects, more than the other way around.

And marketing is marketing. Anyone who knows a lick about it can tell you there are a million ways to "prove" your advertising claims.

dankykev04
01-29-2005, 07:14 PM
so how might a Toyota Supra achieve a 9.8 sec quarter mile? from thousands of dollars in placebos? still not getting it. or is it just european cars that cant be modded

flashinthepan
01-29-2005, 08:25 PM
Vehicle:

2001 BMW 330i 5-Speed

Modifications:

Jim C CAI, TriFlow Muffler, RD Sways

Test area:

1.5 miles, 15 ft. elevation above sea level, straight and level smooth blacktop, no traffic or cross streets, 50-55 F ambient temperature.

Test equipment:

Passport G-Timer GT2, identical driver

Summary:

We tested the car late last week with all modifications in place. The average 0-60 run (best in each direction) was 5.91 seconds. 0-90 mph was 13.26 seconds.

We took all modifications off last night (lease return) and tested again. The average 0-60 run was 5.85 seconds. 0-90mph was 12.51 seconds.

The only difference in the vehicles was about extra 10 gallons of gasoline in the "modified 330i" tank. The road was identical, and the ambient temp was within 5 degrees of each other.

Would the 10 gallons of gas (70 lbs?) be most likely responsible for the "slower" test times of the modified 330i.

Bottom line? I don't think the CAI or exhaust helps with performance. If anything, the mods may slow it down a bit (80-90 mph with mods = 3.00 seconds / stock is 2.56 seconds)!

Interesting.

Does not surprise me a bit, nice post :thumbup:

But then there are always those guys that just have to F.u.c.k. with something to spend money on and have conversation "hype".

IMO
If it within 5 years old, leave it be.
(exception: suspension oriented upgrades)

Matthew330Ci
01-30-2005, 12:12 AM
so how might a Toyota Supra achieve a 9.8 sec quarter mile? from thousands of dollars in placebos? still not getting it. or is it just european cars that cant be modded

apples to oranges.

those supras are heavily, nay, extremely modified with a humongous turbo that makes it almost undriveable around town and so forth.

if you did tear down and build-up the engine on a bmw and added a huge turbo and the works, yes, you would see a huge difference but we're not talking about that here.

adding an I/H/E setup on a N/A car doesn't do much. and the thing is certain cars are more 'maxed out' from the factory with a pretty good intake/exhaust setup and there isn't much the aftermarket can do to improve things, while other cars come bottled up with restrictive intake/exhaust systems and do benefit more from the IHE modifications but still not much.

Honda's DOHC VTEC cars and bimmers (amongst others) tend to fall on the 'maxed out' category so it's not just a european thing.

Mr Paddle.Shift
01-30-2005, 12:43 AM
I can bet with you that most of those pre and post dyno graphs are done without clearing the lamda adaptations, which is crucial for the DME to learn to adapt to new modifications. Start the DME as new, dyno the pre. Install the mod, clear the lamda, start the DME as new, dyno the post. That, IMO should be the way to do it. Then again, not every shop has the luxury of a GT1 or a GT1 equivalent to do such a thing.

Bottomline is any engine related mod requires a complement DME re-programming. The very least that Dinan has a s/w to complement their CAI. Others don't.

Without a DME reprogramming or clearance of lamda adaptations, the DME is just going to treat the new parameters caused by the mod as a *disturbances* (or noise in EE terms) and use the appropriate adaptation algorithm to smooth out the signal. The result being in no change or even loss in net power.


Consider this. Look at the dyno graphs from any car that's been posted here over the years. Genreally, there is upto 3-4% deviation between runs. And these are conducted on a machine, and under presumably unchanging conditions. The ubiquitous "ass dyno" probably has a resolution of 10% or so in terms of horsepower. Meaning anything you feel below that is probably more what you believe is happening, with some influence from what your "ass dyno" detects, more than the other way around.

And marketing is marketing. Anyone who knows a lick about it can tell you there are a million ways to "prove" your advertising claims.

Rowag
01-30-2005, 07:14 PM
I can bet with you that most of those pre and post dyno graphs are done without clearing the lamda adaptations, which is crucial for the DME to learn to adapt to new modifications. Start the DME as new, dyno the pre. Install the mod, clear the lamda, start the DME as new, dyno the post. That, IMO should be the way to do it. Then again, not every shop has the luxury of a GT1 or a GT1 equivalent to do such a thing.

Bottomline is any engine related mod requires a complement DME re-programming. The very least that Dinan has a s/w to complement their CAI. Others don't.

Without a DME reprogramming or clearance of lamda adaptations, the DME is just going to treat the new parameters caused by the mod as a *disturbances* (or noise in EE terms) and use the appropriate adaptation algorithm to smooth out the signal. The result being in no change or even loss in net power.
Paddle Shift brings up a very good point. A friend of mine ran a '95 M3 with a "Shark" chip. When he went to sell/trade the car to the dealer he reverted back to the stock chip and the car ran AWFUL until he drove around for about 45 minutes.

Emission
01-30-2005, 10:38 PM
Without a DME reprogramming or clearance of lamda adaptations, the DME is just going to treat the new parameters caused by the mod as a *disturbances* (or noise in EE terms) and use the appropriate adaptation algorithm to smooth out the signal. The result being in no change or even loss in net power.

Brilliant. :thumbup:

Artslinger
01-31-2005, 06:20 AM
So everyone is so concerded about 0-60 1/4 mile times, shoehorn a small block chevy crate motor in there.

Or...

Forget the E46 engine, lose weight and spend your money on the trany and dif.

Or...

Maybe the best and cheapest solution, practice your 0-60 shifting.

Emission
01-31-2005, 09:47 AM
So everyone is so concerded about 0-60 1/4 mile times, shoehorn a small block chevy crate motor in there.

Or...

Forget the E46 engine, lose weight and spend your money on the trany and dif.

Or...

Maybe the best and cheapest solution, practice your 0-60 shifting.

Simple. 0-60 is the easiest to measure, and the easiest to "nearly replicate" for 90% of drivers.

In a 325i vs. 330i stoplight race (stock vehicles), the 330i should win EVERY TIME (hence the obsession with 0-60 times).

However, on a track it's up to the driver (either could win).
In braking, it's up to the driver (either could win).
In handling (cones or skidpad), it's up to the driver (either could win).
Shifting, well... you get my point.

Understand why every is so concerned with 0-60? It's the easiest way to jump up and say "My car can kick your a$$!"

Artslinger
01-31-2005, 10:21 AM
I have really never understood the obsession with 0-60 times when it comes to the 3 Series.

I've owned many cars with quick zero to sixty times but, when it comes to my 325, 0-60 times are the furthest thing from my mind. I bought this car for good highway drivability, and excellent braking and road handling.

When I read 0-60 and 3 Series mentioned together I get :rolleyes:.

Kaz
01-31-2005, 10:23 AM
so how might a Toyota Supra achieve a 9.8 sec quarter mile? from thousands of dollars in placebos? still not getting it. or is it just european cars that cant be modded

http://carsmedia.ign.com/cars/image/Turbocharger.jpg

Mind you, 1000hp Supras aren't done with bolt-ons. In fact, there aren't that many parts left in the engine that haven't been replaced or massaged. And they're not really streetable (that goes away at around 500hp) either.

Can BMWs get 1000hp? Sure, the old Brabham F1 car did ~1400hp 20 years ago with a stock block from a 320i.

wheel-man
01-31-2005, 10:26 AM
http://carsmedia.ign.com/cars/image/Turbocharger.jpg

Nice hair-dryer :D

Mr Paddle.Shift
01-31-2005, 10:37 AM
I personally don't care too much about 0-60. Heck, I don't even care about the 240rwhp I have my own dyno sheet. See I didn't post it anywhere.

But in Mike's defense, there has got to be a measure of some kind for applied performance. You can have all the hp/lb or hp/l you want, but the 0-60 is where it all happens. Whether you agree/loathe/hate/love it, 0-60 is the measure. Even developmental psychology has tons of measures for a child's correlated behavior, as a car community, I am sure we can have at least one measure for applied performance! :p

Emission
01-31-2005, 10:42 AM
I personally don't care too much about 0-60. Heck, I don't even care about the 240rwhp I have my own dyno sheet. See I didn't post it anywhere.

...um, you just "posted" about it... :rofl:

0-60 is some sort of "manly" way of proving yourself. Funny, I never do 0-60 blasts in my fastest car... it is my slower cars that I am always out to "prove myself" in with quick stoplight blasts!

It's just a measurement.

SpeedFreak!
06-25-2005, 11:13 AM
I find it extremely funny how much of a debate this topic happens to be.
FACT: Every reputable publication doing reputable metered testing in a controlled situation has yielded results stating that the 330 w/ ZHP is a faster and better performing car then the non-ZHP. We can argue all day about from what and from where and why... FACT is... the package just works.
FACT: EVERY test I have personally performed with 6spd ZHP & non... Auto ZHP & non... has yielded similar results. Both metered and seat of the pants.
FACT: The OP did a great job of putting this thing together... and for whatever reason... got a different result then the majority of ALL other tests...
... So for all of you singing the praises of this test and its results... take your non-ZHP 3 and go find yourself a ZHP that you can toe the line against... I would LOVE to see a thread with an ongoing accounting of toe to toe runs... provable runs... of course, in the spirit of friendly competition... :D

Emission
06-25-2005, 11:28 AM
I agree the 330i with the ZHP Package is faster than a stock 330i. Unfortunately, in this case, we have a very fast 330i being tested against a very slow ZHP!

In the defense of the ZHP, this particular car has been to the shop countless times for injector and fuel mapping issues (it is out of service as I type!). Maybe it was never running properly?

Every indication points to the ZHP Package offering increased performance. I don't doubt the claims.

SpeedFreak!
06-25-2005, 12:06 PM
As far as the real issue... Stock 330i vs. Mod 330i... this is ONE test...
My hat's off to the OP and the job he has done conducting this process. Making changes to a brilliantly built car already near its N/A limit... takes lots of testing and planning to come up with the "best" formula. I, for one, have never believed that you could simply bolt on a bunch of relatively inexpensive parts and call it a day. A proper modification includes ample Dyno time for Dyno tuning. Done properly... with the proper mix of products can yield really impressive results. :thumbup:

SpeedFreak!
06-25-2005, 12:08 PM
I agree the 330i with the ZHP Package is faster than a stock 330i. Unfortunately, in this case, we have a very fast 330i being tested against a very slow ZHP!

In the defense of the ZHP, this particular car has been to the shop countless times for injector and fuel mapping issues (it is out of service as I type!). Maybe it was never running properly?

Every indication points to the ZHP Package offering increased performance. I don't doubt the claims.

How sad... deff. sounds like you had a dud... :tsk: Shouldn't even be possible... :confused:

Tanin
06-27-2005, 11:19 AM
Not really a "dud"........ Just slight engine issues. :p

Faulty DME was replaced. Few thousand miles later the leaky fuel injector was replaced (with harnesses and fuel rail removed it was shooting out like an artery).
Currently with 18k miles, I dropped it off this morning because the issues resurfaced. Told my service advisor to check for the bulletin regarding faulty DME and valve problems associated with the 330.

Forget about racing a standard 330i......recently, the loss of power has forced me step aside to for min vans at onramps.

SpeedFreak!
06-29-2005, 12:40 AM
Not really a "dud"........ Just slight engine issues. :p

Faulty DME was replaced. Few thousand miles later the leaky fuel injector was replaced (with harnesses and fuel rail removed it was shooting out like an artery).
Currently with 18k miles, I dropped it off this morning because the issues resurfaced. Told my service advisor to check for the bulletin regarding faulty DME and valve problems associated with the 330.

Forget about racing a standard 330i......recently, the loss of power has forced me step aside to for min vans at onramps.

That, my friend... is clearly a DUD! I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. :tsk:

kurichan
06-30-2005, 07:01 PM
Is the ECU aware of the mods?

Emission
06-30-2005, 07:34 PM
Is the ECU aware of the mods?

Elaborate.

We threw the mods on, and let the ECU figure it out by itself.

crash8168
06-30-2005, 08:42 PM
that is because the engine is pretty darned efficient right out of the box. not a lot of improvement to be had with modifications other than turbos or superchargers.

Tanin
07-01-2005, 10:16 AM
The only modifictions on the vehicle are a JC CIA (carrried over from my '01 330i) and a Borla exhaust system. Nothing major enough to screw up the engine.

** UPDATE **

Defective DISA Valve was replaced and DME was reprogrammed

Seems to be have solved to problem.......so far :)

Plaz
07-01-2005, 10:28 AM
The only modifictions on the vehicle are a JC CIA (carrried over from my '01 330i) and a Borla exhaust system. Nothing major enough to screw up the engine.

** UPDATE **

Defective DISA Valve was replaced and DME was reprogrammed

Seems to be have solved to problem.......so far :)


No problem keeping up with the Odysseys now? :D

Tanin
07-01-2005, 10:45 AM
No problem keeping up with the Odysseys now? :D


Apprehensive to try.

Iím going to wait until I get my replacement steering wheel. With all the alcantara droppings floating around my car my forward vision is limited.

Plaz
07-01-2005, 11:02 AM
Apprehensive to try.

Iím going to wait until I get my replacement steering wheel. With all the alcantara droppings floating around my car my forward vision is limited.


:rofl: