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Alex Baumann
11-22-2003, 12:32 AM
OK, I have received the following information from a well-known and trusted 'Fest member. If you have any questions, post it and I will post his replies here. I just wanted you to know that this info is coming from someone who is an enthusiast and 'one of them', not just a rumor.

Here it goes. :


By a stroke of luck, I was able to attend the Research Design Specialists
vehicle evaluation survey/focus group (invitation only). The purpose was
to help BMW evaluate future designs. From what I can tell, this is the
same event that Emission's friend attended, and it was an opportunity I
couldn't pass up, even if it meant giving up 2.5 hrs on a Friday night.
The fact that it paid $150.00 also helped. This was an East coast focus
group.

Of course, no pictures were permitted. Security was tight for obvious
reasons, and no cell phones, photographic equipment or 2-way pagers were
permitted. They used metal detectors and thoroughly frisked you. Lift
your pant legs, show us your watch, empty your pockets, etc. They meant
business. Personal items were required to be placed in small envelopes
which you could claim later. You may as well have been entering a high
security prison.

Enter the showroom...

Inside are 6 cars:
1. Audi A4 3.0
2. BMW 330i
3. Infiniti G35 Sedan
4. Mercedes C class
5. BMW E90 sedan prototype
6. BMW E60 530i

The exercise consisted of approximately 7 different subjective tests
(rating exterior and interior qualities, based on looks, comfort, etc.) on
a scale of 1-5, 1 being the worst, 5 being the best. Additionally there
were 3 different pricing tests (how much would you want to pay type
questions). You rated all the cars, sat in all of them, etc. It was
BMW's way of determining who is their direct competition and what levels
of quality they need to live up to.

The E60 was there for 2 purposes, to judge the quality of the E90
prototype (do you like it better or worse) and to determine what
specifically you find objectionable about the E60 (for their early market
research when it's due for a facelift).

So let's cut to the chase. Let's talk about the E90 (and accepting fully
it is a prototype and subject to change).

Exterior design:

First of all, none of the computer enhanced photos are accurate. I've
been on the Fest for a while and seen them all. No match.

Front:
Kidney grill is roughly the same size as the current 3er, however it now
has the extra-wide top like the 6er. The headlights are a hybrid between
the E46 sedan (post facelift), and the Z4. You have the same side profile
as the Z4 on the headlights (it looks exactly like the Z4, including the
bumper curves and criss-cross cut lines near the headlights from the front
quarter view), but looking dead on, the turn signals wrap above and below
the headlight (yes, that means eyebrows on top, and some on the bottom).
The headlights look nothing like the X3 headlights which many of the
computer enhancements have suggested. I did see angel eyes.

The bumper looks very similar to the RX8. Envision the Mazda RX8 with a
smaller center air dam, and 2 kidneys right above it and you have a good
idea of what it looks like. The hood does not integrate with the kidneys
(the hood line cuts right above the kidneys). Like the E60, the kidney
grills have an unusual indentation that melds into the bumper a bit,
creating the appearance of a ring surrounding the kidneys and the center
air dam.

The hood is closer to the E46 in size, but incorporates a touch of the E60
where the hood cuts into the side panels slightly. It is not very severe,
just a hint of the cut. I found it pleasant.

Side:
The car has no side moldings, which basically makes it slab sided like the
5. That said, they look more like the E46 than the E60, so they retain
the raised upper portion that wraps around the car, and the lower portion
is flat. The rocker panels look like the current E46 but a little bit
flamed. Windows are roughly the same as the current E46, so evolutionary,
not revolutionary. There is NO Zorro style cut on the side.

Trunk:
It has NO Bangle butt period. In fact, the trunk does not even cut into
the rear quarter panels at all. However the rear lights are evolutionary
on the E60. They are smaller and less slanty, but retain the unusual
shape of the rear lights. IMHO, they are the worst part of the car - they
do not look like they belong at all.

Interior:
The interior is evolutionary on the E60. That means there are only 2
primary gauges facing you. HVAC are controlled with dials. The stereo is
different; it was not functional so I couldn't tell you much about the
design. It looked pretty nice aesthetically.

There was no I-Drive in the prototype. However, there was an area that
looked like it was straight out of the Z4 where an I-Drive video pod could
possibly exist. I suspect that means I-Drive/Navigation will be an
optional center pod.

The interior is very flat and looked like the Z4. It is not driver
oriented. Ergonomically, the 6 speed manual felt unusually high and too
far to the right. Anyway, the Z4-esque interior pretty much means BMW is
officially doing away with the driver-oriented angling of the center
console area. The "T" style design is in.

Window switches have moved to the door. The buttons are tiny. My
relatively average hands could easily hit 2 buttons at the same time.

The car has a start button mounted on the right, and appeared to use the
key system like in the E65.

Steering wheel is cross between the E60 and E46. I thought it was pretty
tasteful, and did not have any radical departures like you saw in the Z4.
It was not multi-function in the prototype, but we were told it would be.

Engine:
They appear to be entertaining a 3.5L 290hp engine and a 3.0L 250hp
engine, based on some of the survey questions (like what would you pay for
a 250hp 330i, etc.) Sounds like they're upping the power to compete with
the G35.

Price:
The target price appears to be the same as the E46, give or take a little.
As has been said before, the 3er is the bread and butter of BMW's line-up
and they cannot price themselves out of it.

Overall design evaluation:
You can tell it's a 3 series. That's the good part. However, it seems
like every BMW in the model line up is so dramatically different
style-wise that the only thing that keeps the model lines consistent is
the BMW logo. This is bad.

Personally, I didn't like it. It is definitely a design you get used to.
It is not a classic design that you immediately fall in love with. I
suspect most people will get used to it relatively easily, and I think
there is potential. However, it looks like they're trying too hard, and
that makes me uncomfortable as a current BMW owner.

Now here's the real disappointment:
As enthusiasts, we are very protective of the BMW marque and how we feel
the marque being represented by these new designs. Love or hate it, we
are passionate about it. In my opinion, this makes us good survey
candidates. We will argue about it until we are blue in the face, but we
will do anything to protect what we feel is right for the brand.

This is not the type of person they invited to the survey. The people in
the survey group were of 3 minds:

1. If it has the Roundel, I'm buying it. All 5s for all the BMWs, all 1s
for the Audi.
2. It looks ok. I'll give it a 4, and I'll probably buy another BMW.
I don't really like the tail lights, but I will give that a 3 and we'll
call it even.
3.Show me the fastest way out of the survey so I can collect my $150.

I'll leave it up to you to interpret what that means. The fact that I
care seemed to be the opposite of what everyone else was doing though, and
it was a bit upsetting that certain discontinuity in design was ignored.
They specifically didn't want people active in Internet boards, and I
suspect if they knew who I was, I wouldn't have been there.

BMW needs to bring customers into the design process earlier. IMHO, these
surveys may modestly affect the final product, but it seems like their
minds are made up already on the overall exterior and interior

Akakubi
11-22-2003, 12:38 AM
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing Alex!

SONET
11-22-2003, 12:54 AM
Thanks for forwarding this info Alex. To whoever wrote this review (cough cough): you might want to remove past evidence of planning to attend the session, etc. :eek: :D

Good info. It's a shame that BMW is going in the wrong direction though (window buttons on the door... grrrrr, non-driver oriented interior... barf), and it's especially sad that they only seem to invite certain types of people there like you mentioned. Somebody needs to teach the people at the top a thing or two about the value of enthusiasts.

The 290HP part sounded good, though. :thumbup:

--SONET

aardvark
11-22-2003, 01:11 AM
However the rear lights are evolutionary on the E60. They are smaller and less slanty, but retain the unusual shape of the rear lights. IMHO, they are the worst part of the car - they do not look like they belong at all.

Could this be expanded upon a little? What do you mean by " the unusual shape of the rear lights"? Is the basic shape like that of the E60 (i.e., a thin white indicator above a rectangular red tail-light)?

bmw325
11-22-2003, 01:19 AM
Sigh. Another model down. It is strange that BMW specifically does not want people from internet message board (i.e. people who are actually passionate about cars and/or BMWs). In the long run- this seems stupid. We as "car nuts" can hold a lot of influence over many buyers.

Alex Baumann
11-22-2003, 01:25 AM
It is strange that BMW specifically does not want people from internet message board (i.e. people who are actually passionate about cars and/or BMWs). In the long run- this seems stupid. We as "car nuts" can hold a lot of influence over many buyers.


Same thing happened to me. Got a phone call a few weeks ago. As the lady on the phone heard that I was active on the Internet, she apologized and told me that the 'manufacturer' didn't want to interview people who are active on the internet boards. :rolleyes:

Motown328
11-22-2003, 01:36 AM
Same thing happened to me. Got a phone call a few weeks ago. As the lady on the phone heard that I was active on the Internet, she apologized and told me that the 'manufacturer' didn't want to interview people who are active on the internet boards. :rolleyes:

They probably figure that if you are active on the boards, your opinion is already SET IN STONE or you are going to spread it ALL OVER THE WEB.

1) Our opinions are most definitely not set in stone and if BMW starts to stink it up, aren't we the type to say it first? They should have more guys like Alex in there if they want opinions that really count.

2) That info is going to be leaked somehow or another.....as long as no pictures get out, you're fine.

Bad move on their part....invite more enthusiats!!!

bmw325
11-22-2003, 01:45 AM
They probably figure that if you are active on the boards, your opinion is already SET IN STONE or you are going to spread it ALL OVER THE WEB.

1) Our opinions are most definitely not set in stone and if BMW starts to stink it up, aren't we the type to say it first? They should have more guys like Alex in there if they want opinions that really count.

2) That info is going to be leaked somehow or another.....as long as no pictures get out, you're fine.

Bad move on their part....invite more enthusiats!!!


Hadn't thought of that. Makes sense-- i guess they don't want people blabbing about the focus groups all over the web. Maybe they should organize a special focus group for BMWCCA members, or something. I guess I sort of see the predicament-- if they invite people like us, we may start influencing others prematurely (i.e "leaking" too much). Unfortuately, they miss out on some of the most detailed, constructive feedback they could probably get.

Pinecone
11-22-2003, 04:12 AM
Then use NDAs like all software beta testing.

Get enthusiests involved early, with NDAs, any blabbing and you are out.

Its done all the time.

glaws
11-22-2003, 04:18 AM
Good writeup Alex - we appreciate it!!

Dr. Phil
11-22-2003, 06:51 AM
Same thing happened to me. Got a phone call a few weeks ago. As the lady on the phone heard that I was active on the Internet, she apologized and told me that the 'manufacturer' didn't want to interview people who are active on the internet boards. :rolleyes:
You should have not did a :blah: and went in cognito :D

Thanks for the writeup :thumbup:

Alex Baumann
11-22-2003, 06:52 AM
You should have not did a :blah: and went in cognito :D

Sorry couldn't help. I always get a little excited when I get a phone call from those survey companies :D

Dr. Phil
11-22-2003, 06:59 AM
Sorry couldn't help. I always get a little excited when I get a phone call from those survey companies :D
I know :thumbup:

But we do expect first "real" sneak pics from you at least :bigpimp: :angel:

mquetel
11-22-2003, 07:19 AM
Now here's the real disappointment:
As enthusiasts, we are very protective of the BMW marque and how we feel
the marque being represented by these new designs. Love or hate it, we
are passionate about it. In my opinion, this makes us good survey
candidates. We will argue about it until we are blue in the face, but we
will do anything to protect what we feel is right for the brand.

This is not the type of person they invited to the survey. The people in
the survey group were of 3 minds:

1. If it has the Roundel, I'm buying it. All 5s for all the BMWs, all 1s
for the Audi.
2. It looks ok. I'll give it a 4, and I'll probably buy another BMW.
I don't really like the tail lights, but I will give that a 3 and we'll
call it even.
3.Show me the fastest way out of the survey so I can collect my $150.

I'll leave it up to you to interpret what that means. The fact that I
care seemed to be the opposite of what everyone else was doing though, and
it was a bit upsetting that certain discontinuity in design was ignored.
They specifically didn't want people active in Internet boards, and I
suspect if they knew who I was, I wouldn't have been there.

BMW needs to bring customers into the design process earlier. IMHO, these
surveys may modestly affect the final product, but it seems like their
minds are made up already on the overall exterior and interior


Thanks for sharing that experience... I think many here are starved for solid info on the E90! I'm really interested (and nervous) in seeing some accurate images of the car. :thumbup: :eek:

As for the part I clipped out to quote, the only thing I can theorize is that while the 3er is BMW's bread and butter, the enthusiast community is not BMW and the 3er's bread and butter customer. I know this has been talked about before, but what percentage of the BMW buying community could we possibly represent? I quick look at the board stats indicated just under 8800 members- and how many of those fall into the hardcore enthusiast category? :dunno:

Artslinger
11-22-2003, 07:30 AM
Very depressing review. I may have to buy a pre facelift CPO for my next BMW and wait it out for the next redesign. :tsk:

racerdave
11-22-2003, 09:17 AM
Hard to tell from just the description, even though the description was very detailed and very good. In my experience, you have to see the car *in person* to make a good judgement. Not even pics can tell all.

That said, I'm going to get an 04 E46 and not wait for the E90. :thumbup: :D

Technic
11-22-2003, 09:37 AM
Thanks for sharing that experience... I think many here are starved for solid info on the E90! I'm really interested (and nervous) in seeing some accurate images of the car. :thumbup: :eek:

As for the part I clipped out to quote, the only thing I can theorize is that while the 3er is BMW's bread and butter, the enthusiast community is not BMW and the 3er's bread and butter customer. I know this has been talked about before, but what percentage of the BMW buying community could we possibly represent? I quick look at the board stats indicated just under 8800 members- and how many of those fall into the hardcore enthusiast category? :dunno:

I agree with this opinion... It seems to me that considering the current state of sales in the entry luxury/sport sedan field, BMW decided to go against the flow of not only other car companies but its own. Thus no more styling cues remembering the past, no more conservative language, a new type of customer to appeal, this is the New and Improved BMW.

Maybe it sounded good when they presented this new way of doing things in the Powerpoint presentation, the problem is that these type of changes are very expensive, so something's gotta give.

And this is where I have all my issues with this new BMW way. If you look closely you will notice that the only place that they are putting money is in the driving experience (chassis, suspension, steering, electronic aids, safety) and, if this anonymous review is any indication, finally they are going to update the engines too. Which is excellent, this is after all where BMW separated itself from other car companies so many years ago. I do not see them messing around with the fundamentals, that's plainly suicidal.

Other than this, this is cheap'o land all over, in the styling details, interior materials, feature content and even in the famous iDrive development. Other than the 8 cylinder cars, every other BMW is overpriced at a level that is getting ridiculous against the competition while giving you less and less. Even Servotronic is an option now... spending $45,000 and still I can't get leather or a measly sunroof is not my idea of a 'luxury' sport sedan.

But it seems to BMW that it is the idea of a lot of customers.

This could be the reason, IMHO, why they do not want forums' people around to 'contaminate' this dog and pony show. Anybody, enthusiast enough in cars, will identify all these half-baked implementations of design, ergonomics and feature content in a minute, so it will become a moot point. BMW wants the non-enthusiast to find out if they have gone too far in this styling/cost measures as to impact their goal of more sales/at higher prices/with low manufacturing costs.

BMW actually is making a car for 'us', the enthusiasts, the 1 Series. So it seems that we should get used to this, simply buy used or look somewhere else. :confused:

Alex Baumann
11-22-2003, 12:39 PM
Got a little photoshop work from our member, thought I'd share it with you.

Here's how the front is supposed to look (he said the front bumper is slightly different, but very close)

:angel:


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22350

racerdave
11-22-2003, 01:00 PM
I agree with this opinion...
Maybe it sounded good when they presented this new way of doing things in the Powerpoint presentation, the problem is that these type of changes are very expensive, so something's gotta give.

But it seems to BMW that it is the idea of a lot of customers.

BMW actually is making a car for 'us', the enthusiasts, the 1 Series. So it seems that we should get used to this, simply buy used or look somewhere else. :confused:

:clap: :clap:

Well said Technic

Dr. Phil
11-22-2003, 02:27 PM
Got a little photoshop work from our member, thought I'd share it with you.

Here's how the front is supposed to look (he said the front bumper is slightly different, but very close)

:angel:



Hmmmmm.....with photoshop skills like that, I wonder who the member could be :confused: :angel:

Alex Baumann
11-22-2003, 02:29 PM
Hmmmmm.....with photoshop skills like that, I wonder who the member could be :confused: :angel:


:slap:


:D

Dr. Phil
11-22-2003, 02:33 PM
:slap:


:D
:amish: like to :stickpoke

:neener:

Emission
11-22-2003, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the scoop. Glad he got in! :D

(Nice detailed write-up!)

tgravo2
11-23-2003, 02:23 PM
From the way it sounds, my next car may not be a BMW :cry:

My lease is up Sept 2005, that is right around the time of the E90 release. :(

AF
11-23-2003, 02:43 PM
Thanks for the write up !!! Very detailed and appreciated !!

HW
11-23-2003, 05:14 PM
i'm kinda more interested in the 1er and 2er. :D

Chris90
11-23-2003, 07:00 PM
What do Chris Bangle and George Lucas have in common? Both ruined absolute classics. Both keep trying.

Foxbat
11-24-2003, 01:12 AM
... I remember the days, when everyone laughed at the japanese cars, for every new model cycle brought totaly different looking cars than the older models. It was said "they have no character", "no heritage".

What BMW did, imho, is exactly that, they pulled a Jap.

My next car will be a Benz, thats a company without this fundamental changes. If they do such things, then with a totaly new edition/car like the CLS etc.

I really LOVE the CLS ;)

Andre Yew
11-24-2003, 11:22 AM
Has anyone seen the 4-series spy photo:

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000203815.cfm

http://216.73.106.70/SP32-20031120-110900.jpg

--Andre

Akakubi
11-24-2003, 11:37 AM
I just read in Autocar that the 1-er may have a 215hp 4-cyl Turbo engine in a 120i Version. And BMW has secured the titles 125i and 130i.... :D 1-series with the 3.0L from my car.... :thumbup:

LeucX3
11-24-2003, 12:00 PM
Maybe it won't be so hard to keep my car for 10 years after all. :eek:

alee
11-24-2003, 12:06 PM
Has anyone seen the 4-series spy photo
Unfortunately, that's no spy photo, just another Photoshop artist getting carried away. :(

racerdave
11-24-2003, 01:35 PM
Yeah, that's a PhotoShop rendering from Autocar. It's no spy shot. We're just going to have to wait a while to see the thing in it's final form.

DevExpert
11-24-2003, 07:01 PM
I have not see these posted here...

Does not look bad... Has some class... Don't know whether they are PhotoShoped or not...

alee
11-24-2003, 07:53 PM
Those are both P-shops as well.

The only real ones I've seen have had heavy body cladding to conceal the appearance.

ff
11-24-2003, 08:06 PM
"HVAC are controlled with dials." :clap: woo-hoo!!

"Window switches have moved to the door." :thumbdwn: boo!!!

bmw325
11-25-2003, 11:10 AM
"HVAC are controlled with dials." :clap: woo-hoo!!



I'm quite happy about this as well-- unfortunately, its the ONLY good part about the interiors of recent BMWs.

Alex Baumann
11-25-2003, 11:15 AM
Another review arrived a few minutes ago :eeps:

Just saw the e90 in person today and i have to say that it looks great! If the prototype is the final product then i have to say that i am not at all disappointed.

It is definitely the most conservative of all the bangles and the most dare i say....beautiful!

The PShop pic by the contributing member is pretty accurate but the real thing looks even sleeker.

The top portion; roofline, window and pillars looks identical to the e46 sedan however the c pillar is curvier, sleeker and has a e class curve to it.

The rear quarter panel retains the bulging lines across and creates a muscular look to it.

The side view mirrors ARE FINALLY NOT BOXY!!! it is much rounder and it also has bulging lines.

The sedan looks very similar to the pics of the e90 coupe floating around...the lines and the flow of it are very identical. The one part i did not like about the e90 is definitely the bumper...much better than the 5 bumper but is similar to the mazda 6 bumpers and not the rx8 as the first reviewer stated.

The entire kidney grill is not attached to the hood only the top bar of the grill is. In my opinion i think the e90 is taking a evolutionary step from the e46.

I really like how the hood looks very sleek and has a z4 look to it but is more flattened out and wider (i hate the new 5 series hood). I am still undecided about the rear lights. The first thing that came to mind when i saw the trunk was that it looks like the ultraman character. 1/4 of the rear headlights is integrated into the trunk and the headlights has an almond shape to it? A very attractive trunk imo....luv the lines and nothing at all like the 5 or the 7. The trunk definitely looks in place.

I think the exterior looks very attractive and will entice alot of woman car buyers. After looking at the e90 i definitely felt that my e46 looks very dated compared to it. I am so happy that bangle didnt F the next 3 series!

Artslinger
11-25-2003, 01:25 PM
This sounds encouraging... when can we see some REAL non photoshoped, non cladding e90 pictures.

Maverick
11-25-2003, 03:24 PM
Alex,

Did you see this or is this from someone else (not including the person in your first post)?

Sounds like some positive feed back for once. :thumbup:

Spectre
11-25-2003, 05:27 PM
Alex,

Did you see this or is this from someone else (not including the person in your first post)?

Sounds like some positive feed back for once. :thumbup:It sounds like someone else sent Alex a review from the wording Alex used. Alex would be walking on thin ice to post about the E90 if he had attended one of these events.

Maverick
11-25-2003, 05:44 PM
It sounds like someone else sent Alex a review from the wording Alex used. Alex would be walking on thin ice to post about the E90 if he had attended one of these events.

Thanks. Just checking.

racerdave
11-26-2003, 08:12 AM
Yeah, it seems like Alex is the E90 Focus Group "clearinghouse." :)

Or to put another less-positive spin on it, he's the E90 Focus Group "information launderer."

:D

i2friendly
11-26-2003, 05:48 PM
I was invited to see one a week ago, and while I'm bound by the NDA and can't really say much about it, I have a couple of points.

1. I saw a very wide range of people doing the testing. I saw a number of people who appeared to be _very_ meticulous in their ratings -- took 2-3 times longer than others (myself included).

2. I found the exterior of the E90 to be very pleasing. Fresh, some flame surfacing, but overall a very aggressive look. Much tamer than any other recent designs.

3. Interior was disappointing to me. The car was pre-production so they said that materials will be of much higher quality in the production car. The interior is spartan, no wraparound feel. My biggest complaint was that the dashboard is now fairly shallow (distance between windshield and edge of dashboard closest to the driver is shorter). This was probably done to save space.

4. Window switches on the window. Better than in E60 though. I like the switches on the center console, but I think it is the focus groups like this one that make them move. A lot of people at these things are jap car owners, that BMW is trying to attract to increase market share. To most average drivers (non-enthusiasts, that I know), having switches on the center console is odd and inconvinient -- go figure.

5. The pic posted above, doesn't do the car justice. It looks _much_ better in person. The taillights are a bit weak -- too simple, but don't really take away from the car.

The truth is BMW has been moving away from the cockpit concept slowly, but surely over the years. The angle of turnin towards the driver has been getting smaller and smaller with each model (i.e. E30->E36->E46). I've been expecting BMW to get rid of it completely for quite a while (too bad).

I'm a BMW fanatic, have onwed 3, current E39 owner. I do like the E65 (the butt could be better, but doesn't bother me too much). I think the E60 looks nice, but a bit bland. I liked the E90 better than all the others. It is a departure, but albeit a much smaller one than I was expecting.

The rest of the points made by Alex are pretty much on the money. If they snazz up the interior, they have a winner. I gave the E90 interior very low marks, mostly hoping to peak someone's interest in figuring out why some loyal customers don't like something about it and fix it.

I also surely hope that the production car will have much higher quality of interior materials. The Benz still feels the most luxury.

aardvark
11-26-2003, 07:25 PM
The taillights are a bit weak -- too simple, but don't really take away from the car.
Again with the taillights...

Could one of you sketch or photoshop what you're talking about?

ItchyNScratchy
11-27-2003, 03:35 PM
Again with the taillights...

Could one of you sketch or photoshop what you're talking about?

The pics posted by DevExpert is almost EXACTLY like
the e90. The car in the pic is not anywhere as curvy & sleek as
the real prototype. Taillights are exact but no amber on prototype just red and white.
Hope this helps

aardvark
11-27-2003, 05:25 PM
Thanks, Itchy. That does help.

Those taillights actually look okay to me.

ItchyNScratchy
11-27-2003, 06:50 PM
Thanks, Itchy. That does help.

Those taillights actually look okay to me.

No problem :thumbup:

Cons : The bumper (too mazda 6) and taillights (not a big issue and needs time to get used to). Everything else looks sweet and an evolutionary step from the e46 with some hints of the z4 (mainly the hood which i liked and the lines going from the headlights to the fender - Pshop pic from alex B shows this).
I think alot of ppl will get off Bangle's back once they see it and will show that he is capable of designing beautiful cars once he tones down the avantgarde approach. I am a big opponent of Bangle's designs but very happy with the e90. Hope this helps :eeps:

ssabripo
11-27-2003, 07:41 PM
Alex and IthcyNscratchy,
does it look anything like this?

http://www.ilpistone.com/yabbse/attachments/ChB_serie_3_-_1.jpg
http://www.ilpistone.com/yabbse/attachments/ChB_serie_3_-_2.jpg

Cadd
11-27-2003, 08:29 PM
Is it me or does that rear look like a TSX?

But if it looks like that, where do I sign? Now I'm just hoping it'll be a 2005MY.

i2friendly
11-27-2003, 09:14 PM
No, taillights are nothing like X3s. I'd say they are closer to 5er's, but not the same.

ItchyNScratchy
11-27-2003, 10:07 PM
Alex and IthcyNscratchy,
does it look anything like this?

http://www.ilpistone.com/yabbse/attachments/ChB_serie_3_-_1.jpg
http://www.ilpistone.com/yabbse/attachments/ChB_serie_3_-_2.jpg

nope

The HACK
11-27-2003, 10:37 PM
Sounds/looks like they had the ///M bumper on the prototype E90 3 series that some of these guys saw.

racerdave
11-28-2003, 09:53 AM
Those taillights actually look okay to me.

Sorry :thumbdwn:

Those tail lights look "Acura CL" to me... or something similarly bland.

They stink :thumbdwn:

MontereyP
12-03-2003, 05:47 PM
Is this the real thing Alex????

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/13173neuer3er.jpg

alee
12-03-2003, 05:50 PM
Doesn't appear to be (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47161)

hmr
12-03-2003, 07:40 PM
Is this the real thing Alex????

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/13173neuer3er.jpg

That's just too damn good to be photoshopped. Pretty sweet. :thumbup: If it is the real thing, I would wonder why BMW would make this available--I mean, that's a carefully shot picture. And is the car in such a stage of development to be presentable as such?

RCK
12-03-2003, 08:56 PM
I dont understand how that could be photoshop'd? :dunno:
That looks way too damn clean :yikes:

i2friendly
12-03-2003, 09:48 PM
I was at the market research study a few weeks ago. It's close, but not exact. Front fascia and headlights are somewhat different. More aggressive looking. Some of the other features aren't exact either, but not really consequential.

Thanks,
Dave

FrenchBoy
12-04-2003, 05:49 AM
WOW :yikes: :yikes: I LOVE IT.

f this is not the real thing - which probably isn't at this stage - it is a very impressive rendition.

In any case, I hope the real thing is as nice as this one. This is by far the most appealing doctored-up photo that has leaked out.

FrenchBoy

bmw325
12-04-2003, 10:08 PM
I was at the market research study a few weeks ago. It's close, but not exact. Front fascia and headlights are somewhat different. More aggressive looking. Some of the other features aren't exact either, but not really consequential.

Thanks,
Dave

-THis looks ok-- best of the Bangles-- not great- but I could probably deal with it if the interior isn't horrific.

-Are the front blinkers correct in this pic? Don't really like them. I thought Alex B's post said that the blinkers were sort of eye-browish (although that would be worse)?
-Definitely don't like the front bumper-- looks over-done-- is this basically the way it looks?
-sideview mirrors seem too big-- almost 80's American (those big bulbous mirros on older big American cars).
-Is there really that indentation in the middle of the hood (Similar to x5)? Don't like that-- makes it too busy.
-Like the kidney shape-- seems less cartoonish than other designs-- is this detail correct on the pic?

Now that they've come this far in "toning down" the front fascia and eliminating eyebrows, I really think they should just bite the bullet and slap on an 01+ e39 style face. Its clean, modern and good-looking.

The headlights, kidneys and hood are interesting because they seem to look almost traditional BMW. I really don't get why they didn't just revert back to the e46/e39 style where the hood includes the kidneys-- this design seems to make it look really forced that they didn't do that. Still, its the best of the Bangle faces. Side treatment looks ok-- not great.

Overall profile (from what I can tell) looks essentailly e46.

Artslinger
12-05-2003, 06:08 AM
Not a bad design (image posted by MontereyP)... its does have a strange combination of round and angular parts.

- Hard to tell from the picture if the ass is to big and high, which always a concern with any Bangle design.
- BMW needs to find away to get rid of that side marker.
- I don't care for the skinny middle hood bulge, if they leave it on the car it needs to be wider and less pronounced.
- The kidneys are just the right size.
- I like the mirrors they maybe a little to big, but hard to tell what the actual size will be after all this is a Photoshoped image.
- The front lights I can live with.
- The front spoiler bumper area is not bad, I'm not quite sure how a US sized plate will look with the spoiler though.

The car does have an agressive look, and I would consider buying this BMW design for my next car.

racerdave
12-05-2003, 07:42 AM
It's obviously a WAG of a E90 by combining a bunch of elements from existing Bungled designs.

Still waiting for a "real," undisguised E90 shot.

Technic
12-05-2003, 07:42 AM
-

The headlights, kidneys and hood are interesting because they seem to look almost traditional BMW. I really don't get why they didn't just revert back to the e46/e39 style where the hood includes the kidneys-- this design seems to make it look really forced that they didn't do that. Still, its the best of the Bangle faces. Side treatment looks ok-- not great.

Overall profile (from what I can tell) looks essentailly e46.

I read somewhere that the reason of moving away from including the grille with the hood is two fold: it is cheaper to produce (the whole front bumper will include the grile portion), and cheaper to the insurance company to paid in case of an accident.

I believe this reason because not only BMW is doing it, Mercedes and Audi also are doing it in a less scale .

By the way, if the E90 looks like the photo definitely it will be my next BMW...

bmw325
12-05-2003, 07:47 AM
I read somewhere that the reason of moving away from including the grille with the hood is two fold: it is cheaper to produce (the whole front bumper will include the grile portion), and cheaper to the insurance company to paid in case of an accident.

I believe this reason because not only BMW is doing it, Mercedes and Audi also are doing it in a less scale .

By the way, if the E90 looks like the photo definitely it will be my next BMW...


Yeah-- I figured it was cheaper to produce-- in this photoshop its not as bad looking as it is on the e60. And hell, I guess you could make the argument that "classic" BMWs also did not incorporate the grille into thoe hood. Regarding Audi and Mercedes, I hadn't noticed that they were doing this-- all their latest designs still seem to incorporate the grille into the hood.

Alex Baumann
12-05-2003, 07:55 AM
Just for the record again, the pictures that have been posted on THIS AND SECOND PAGE are not close to the real thing.

The closest P'shop picture is the one which was posted on the first page.

Artslinger
12-05-2003, 08:46 AM
Well if that's the case I'm glad to see the center hood bulge gone. I know its a hacked PS image but... the front spoiler air dam opening looks frickn' weird, and where do you hang the front plate?

ayn
12-05-2003, 09:43 AM
So he did impersonate his friend to attend this huh? ;)

Sean
12-05-2003, 10:01 AM
Is this the real thing Alex????

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/13173neuer3er.jpg

I'd seriously consider buying this if the center of the hood and front turn signals were changed. It also has to have no Bangle Butt. The rest looks good to me. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Jspeed
12-05-2003, 11:17 AM
...
4. Window switches on the window. Better than in E60 though. I like the switches on the center console, but I think it is the focus groups like this one that make them move. A lot of people at these things are jap car owners, that BMW is trying to attract to increase market share. To most average drivers (non-enthusiasts, that I know), having switches on the center console is odd and inconvinient -- go figure.
...

I know everyone has his/her own preferences, but let me just point out why some people would prefer to have the window switches on the doors. It has to do with intuitiveness. People simply expect the controls to be near the target object. e.g. sunroof button in front of the sunroof, powered seat controls on the side of the seats, door lock switch on the doors, window switches on the doors.

I personally drive with both hands on the steering wheel when I'm not shifting so I don't mind taking off my left hand instead of the right to operate the windows. For those who drive w/ their left hands only, I can see how they would prefer most switches to be on the center console.

HW
12-05-2003, 12:40 PM
I know everyone has his/her own preferences, but let me just point out why some people would prefer to have the window switches on the doors. It has to do with intuitiveness. People simply expect the controls to be near the target object. e.g. sunroof button in front of the sunroof, powered seat controls on the side of the seats, door lock switch on the doors, window switches on the doors.

I personally drive with both hands on the steering wheel when I'm not shifting so I don't mind taking off my left hand instead of the right to operate the windows. For those who drive w/ their left hands only, I can see how they would prefer most switches to be on the center console.


i personally don't like the switches on the centre console because i have to awkwardly reach around the shifter for the pass windows. :thumbdwn: but i do believe it's cheaper for bmw to do it this way.

Technic
12-05-2003, 12:53 PM
Yeah-- I figured it was cheaper to produce-- in this photoshop its not as bad looking as it is on the e60. And hell, I guess you could make the argument that "classic" BMWs also did not incorporate the grille into thoe hood. Regarding Audi and Mercedes, I hadn't noticed that they were doing this-- all their latest designs still seem to incorporate the grille into the hood.

Mercedes CLK, C230 Coupe, E Class, SLK and the SL, Audi A4 Cabrio and the A8 no longer extend the hood sheetmetal into the grille opening. Now that area is all part of the front bumper cover.

I do not now if both manufacturers actually attach the grille portion to the hood on those models. :dunno:

HW
12-05-2003, 01:16 PM
Mercedes CLK, C230 Coupe, E Class, SLK and the SL, Audi A4 Cabrio and the A8 no longer extend the hood sheetmetal into the grille opening. Now that area is all part of the front bumper cover.

I do not now if both manufacturers actually attach the grille portion to the hood on those models. :dunno:

i see this as better because a light rearender would take out the hood as well if the grill was attached to the hood. :dunno: with the grill attached to the bumper, only the bumper needs to be replaced. and maybe the lights.

bmw325
12-08-2003, 09:11 PM
Mercedes CLK, C230 Coupe, E Class, SLK and the SL, Audi A4 Cabrio and the A8 no longer extend the hood sheetmetal into the grille opening. Now that area is all part of the front bumper cover.

I do not now if both manufacturers actually attach the grille portion to the hood on those models. :dunno:

Wow, I hadn't noticed that-- but now I definitely see what you mean. They do it so well on these cars, that you don't really notice it (or atleast I didn't). There's something about the way that BMW does it on the newer models-- where you really notice the cut-line and it looks cheap. I think it may be due to the fact that they have to deal w/ the kidney grilles-- so there's no clean way to hide the seam as MB and Audi can w/ their rectangular grilles. The only clean solution for bMW w/ their kidneys is probably to keep incorporating the grilles as they did on the e38-46. I wonder if another reason for doing this has something to do w/ making more pedestrian friendly front-ends--- I think there may be some upcoming Euro regulations about that. Dunno. Out of the newer models, I think the e65 does it best (never though i'd say anything nice about the e65): http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/bmw/7series/100192656/photogallery.html?pg_type=Sedan&imgsrc=%2Fpictures%2FVEHICLE%2F2002%2FBMW%2F100070 589%2F024487-T.jpg


Audi A4 convertible and E-class
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/mercedesbenz/eclass/100359251/photogallery.html?pg_type=Sedan&imgsrc=%2Fpictures%2FVEHICLE%2F2004%2FMercedes-Benz%2F100359251%2F027791-T.jpg
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/audi/a4/100311572/photogallery.html?pg_type=Convertible&imgsrc=%2Fpictures%2FVEHICLE%2F2004%2FAudi%2F10031 1572%2F023676-T.jpg

LmtdSlip
12-09-2003, 06:50 AM
The 290HP part sounded good, though. :thumbup:



If the 3 keeps getting heavier they are going to need every one of those 290HP just to keep it competitive.

From the sounds of it the new E90 will make my E36 look positively svelte. :tsk:

ItchyNScratchy
12-09-2003, 08:31 PM
Just for the record again, the pictures that have been posted on THIS AND SECOND PAGE are not close to the real thing.

The closest P'shop picture is the one which was posted on the first page.

Sorry alex,
but i have to disagree and i personally think the pshop from The 3rd page is the closest to the real thing. The first page pshop resembled the prototype but it didn't reveal the shape/curves of it until this latest pshop.

The latest pshop (pg3) may possibly be the most up to date changes and refinements made by the e90 designers.
We have to remember what many of us saw in person was the 'prototype' made from past designs. The latest pshop is just an updated/refined version not yet produced into a newer model of the prototype. Anyways, this is just my opinion and i could be wrong but
you can see how it is all evolving from what many saw at the mkt research grp and the latest pshop. We have to remember that what we saw in person is not set in stone for the e90.
I also believe there were other focus groups prior to the one in NJ(?).

Also where the hood meets the fender (in 3rd pg pshop)does not resemble the prototype. The hood looked wider and flared out more similar to the e60. They mightve toned down the 'bangle' design aspect of the hood.

note** I dont think the second pg (red pshop) looked anything like the prototype i saw.

racerdave
12-10-2003, 02:25 PM
Hmm... all the more reason to buy an RX-8

:D

(ducking and running...)

Alex Baumann
12-10-2003, 02:37 PM
Hmm... all the more reason to buy an RX-8

:D

(ducking and running...)


:spank:



:p

bavarian19
01-03-2004, 04:23 PM
Is this the real thing Alex????

http://photos.e46fanatics.com/data/500/13173neuer3er.jpg


My only problem with this PS is the rear wheels. First of all, drivers side looks WAY too wide. That and the passengers side rear while does not seem to line up :rolleyes: .


If this is how the E90 might look, I would seriosuly consider one in the not too distant future.