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View Full Version : Former E60 owners, how do you like your F10?


solstice
09-27-2010, 11:10 AM
I had a 2008 535i with the sports package and now I have an F10 535i with the sports package and the dynamic handling package.

I've come to realize that luxuary is not really that important to me and not why I like bmws. I like them because of the handling and engines most of their cars posess. I also realized that I will likely never buy a seven series. The E60 is an amazing mid-size sedan. It's so tight and the way it hunkers down and sticks to the road and provides sports car like feedback and cornering is for sure a benchmark for it's size and segment.

The F10 is imo a luxuary cruiser with some mild sporting abilities. It feels big, comfortable and luxurious but unfortunately also quite un-inspiring. I find myself longing for a smaller sportier and "basic" car something that I never did with the E60.

What's your take? Are you woved by the undoubtly improved ride and exceptional refinement and luxury or do you find that the funfer has lost some of it's magic?

quackbury
09-27-2010, 11:44 AM
OMG don't let richschneid see this post! He will go absolutely apoplectic! (You and I may disagree about leasing vs. buying, but sounds like we have exactly the same concern about the F10).

richschneid
09-27-2010, 12:00 PM
OMG don't let richschneid see this post! He will go absolutely apoplectic! (You and I may disagree about leasing vs. buying, but sounds like we have exactly the same concern about the F10).

OMG, I better close my eyes! I'll let you know when my car gets here next week. I have never driven an F10 535i so I can't comment. I have driven a rear drive 550i and the performance was awe inspiring even with the Goodyear RFTs. It will blow the socks off my 650i, and my 650i will blow the socks off an E60 550i because it is lighter with the same engine. There is a huge difference between 300hp with 300 lb ft versus 400hp and 450 lb ft. I even liked the steering and high speed cornering just as much even though I don't think it had the IAS. But the new 8 speed sport automatic is much better than the 6 speed steptronic on my 650i for fast sporty driving.

The F10 550i is also a lot more luxurious especially in terms of ride comfort even with the RFTs. But I agree it stands to reason that the E60 535i would be more sporting than an F10 535i because of the same engine output and added weight of the F10. But despite its potential difference in feel, I think the sportiness of the F10 535i should be judged only based upon how it drives with the Integral Active Steering. A driver interested in sporty performance should get the car with both the sport auto and the IAS. That's why BMW offers these advanced performance options.

See, there I agreed with you on something. And I didn't even call you any names. Now why don't you try to reciprocate? :)

richschneid
09-27-2010, 12:14 PM
I had a 2008 535i with the sports package and now I have an F10 535i with the sports package and the dynamic handling package.

I've come to realize that luxuary is not really that important to me and not why I like bmws. I like them because of the handling and engines most of heir cars posess. I also realized that I will likely never buy a seven series. The E60 is an amazing mid-size sedan. It's so tight and the way it hunkers down and sticks to the road and provides sports car like feedback and cornering is for sure a benchmark for it's size and segment.

The F10 is imo a luxuary cruiser with some mild sporting abilities. It feels big, comfortable and luxurious but unfortunately also quite un-inspiring. I find myself longing for a smaller sportier and "basic" car something that I never did with the E60.

What's your take? Are you woved by the undoubtly imporved ride and exceptional refinement and luxury or do you find that the funfer has lost some of it's magic?

I will also agree with you on this. But as I have said before, your longing for something smaller and sportier might be satisfied with the new larger 3 series due out in about 2 years. I was longing for something larger and more luxurious and the 7 is much too big. So, having an AWD luxury sedan that will do 0-60 faster than my E39 M5 and handles the twisties as well as my 650i really satisfies my longings.

DXK
09-27-2010, 12:17 PM
Yeah, I got e60 535i sport; since the feel is very subjective, could you tell us (the prospective buyers who only drove f10 several times, although very aggressively on twisted roads with sharp turns) what it is exactly that you could do in the e60 that you cannot in f10? Does it over or understeer more, you***8217;re unable to take corners the same way you could before?

TMQ
09-27-2010, 01:09 PM
It's obvious that BMW is doing this for the sake of the company profit and long term survival. The 5 is after all a luxury car. People who prefer a more performance oriented sedan can stick with the 3 series.

It's no coincidence that BMW is moving on to the "Joy" slogan. The ultimate driving machine title is better reserved for the P car.

My guess is that it's only a matter of time that Porsche introduces a smaller 4 four sedan.

solstice
09-27-2010, 01:24 PM
Yeah, I got e60 535i sport; since the feel is very subjective, could you tell us (the prospective buyers who only drove f10 several times, although very aggressively on twisted roads with sharp turns) what it is exactly that you could do in the e60 that you cannot in f10? Does it over or understeer more, you're unable to take corners the same way you could before?

To clarify it's mainly about what it makes me want to do and not what it can do. Honestly, I could probably go faster in my SUV than what I did (not could) with my E60 on my favourite backroads. It would be an absolutely hair raising, tire squeeling affair to do so while with the E60 it was pure enjoyment and that's my point, not that the F10 isn't a capable car. I just feel it's a lot less inspiring and fun to drive so yeah you bet it's subjective but for me that's what a road car is all about since I'm not in a competition.

rich, I think I told you before that even the new 3 will be to small for me, that's why I'm a bit dissappointed that that the funfer is now less of a match for us that needs the space of a larger car but craves the sportiness and fun factor of a smaller car.

DXK
09-27-2010, 01:47 PM
Okay, I cannot argue with a full force of experience since I only drove it a few times. I did notice it feels different than e60, but I did not notice that it made my driving tentative in sport and sport+. I will see how it performs on the A-bahn in December although it will be on winter tires then.

shortcut3d
09-27-2010, 02:16 PM
I'm going from a 335i 6MT and should really notice the changes in the F10 535i. Right??? Well, of course its much larger. I have not found the steering flawed. Obviously, I have not pushed the car to the limit, but I've gone far faster than the posted limit on a few bay area backroads and felt the car inspired confidence. Maybe on a track, I would find the steering flawed, but the 5 series in its stock trim is not a track car. The M5 will be that beast. The F10 met and exceeded my expectations. The acceleration and fuel mileage is amazing for a much larger car.

Newmanium
09-27-2010, 02:45 PM
OMG, I better close my eyes! I'll let you know when my car gets here next week. I have never driven an F10 535i so I can't comment. I have driven a rear drive 550i and the performance was awe inspiring even with the Goodyear RFTs. It will blow the socks off my 650i, and my 650i will blow the socks off an E60 550i because it is lighter with the same engine. There is a huge difference between 300hp with 300 lb ft versus 400hp and 450 lb ft. I even liked the steering and high speed cornering just as much even though I don't think it had the IAS. But the new 8 speed sport automatic is much better than the 6 speed steptronic on my 650i for fast sporty driving.

The F10 550i is also a lot more luxurious especially in terms of ride comfort even with the RFTs. But I agree it stands to reason that the E60 535i would be more sporting than an F10 535i because of the same engine output and added weight of the F10. But despite its potential difference in feel, I think the sportiness of the F10 535i should be judged only based upon how it drives with the Integral Active Steering. A driver interested in sporty performance should get the car with both the sport auto and the IAS. That's why BMW offers these advanced performance options.

See, there I agreed with you on something. And I didn't even call you any names. Now why don't you try to reciprocate? :)

You sell your 650i yet?

Billd104
09-27-2010, 02:57 PM
I spent quite a bit of time in both F10's (535 & 550) at the Ultimate Drive event. The power of the 550 was effortless but as some others have said, I found both cars rather numb and uninspired compared to my E60 (E61 in my case). As a counterpoint I just drove a 2007 Z4 M Coupe... That may be the finest car I have ever driven in terms of just sheer driving purity and involvement. I realize that these cars run the gamut from sport to luxury but the new F10 was supposed to be the best of both worlds right?

shortcut3d
09-27-2010, 03:20 PM
I spent quite a bit of time in both F10's (535 & 550) at the Ultimate Drive event. The power of the 550 was effortless but as some others have said, I found both cars rather numb and uninspired compared to my E60 (E61 in my case). As a counterpoint I just drove a 2007 Z4 M Coupe... That may be the finest car I have ever driven in terms of just sheer driving purity and involvement. I realize that these cars run the gamut from sport to luxury by the new F10 was supposed to be the best of both worlds right?

I would probably say the new 6 should be the best of both worlds. A 4-door sedan could never compare to a roadster. Although, I'm still inspired by the F10.

Where do you guys find the place and time to push these cars so hard?

FPNY
09-27-2010, 04:06 PM
I can't say how I'm liking my new f10 so far, it's sitting on a dock in Germany. I can say how much I've enjoyed my 08 535xi tho. It's a ton, that car basically had me at hello. I wasn't really sold on the exterior design, but I love the interior and the drive. It impresses me every time I drive it, it also impresses my clients when I use it for work. I've read all the reviews of the new car, I drove every competitors equal and each time my car with almost fifty thousand miles was better than theirs with no miles on it. There was no choice for me, BMW all the way!

solstice
09-27-2010, 05:07 PM
I can't say how I'm liking my new f10 so far, it's sitting on a dock in Germany. I can say how much I've enjoyed my 08 535xi tho. It's a ton, that car basically had me at hello. I wasn't really sold on the exterior design, but I love the interior and the drive. It impresses me every time I drive it, it also impresses my clients when I use it for work. I've read all the reviews of the new car, I drove every competitors equal and each time my car with almost fifty thousand miles was better than theirs with no miles on it. There was no choice for me, BMW all the way!

The F10 is that upper class model you dated back in college. So damn pretty and well mannered and who gave you immediate status among men at any occassion. The E60 is the sporty quirky girl, a little bit too muscular and with a few scars here and there but oh so much fun were it really counts...

DXK
09-27-2010, 05:17 PM
yeah, but who would you rather marry?

Why continue driving a car you don't like? can't you find someone with 2010 e60 who'd exchange with you?

solstice
09-27-2010, 05:37 PM
yeah, but who would you rather marry?

Why continue driving a car you don't like? can't you find someone with 2010 e60 who'd exchange with you?

If you passed first grade math I think you can figure that one out.

solstice
09-27-2010, 05:44 PM
Marry? I'm not planning to spend the rest of my life with any one car so that question is kind of moot.

Billd104
09-27-2010, 06:08 PM
The F10 is that upper class model you dated back in college. So damn pretty and well mannered and who gave you immediate status among men at any occassion. The E60 is the sporty quirky girl, a little bit too muscular and with a few scars here and there but oh so much fun were it really counts...

So then what's the Z4 M Coupe? :D

Billd104
09-27-2010, 06:14 PM
I would probably say the new 6 should be the best of both worlds. A 4-door sedan could never compare to a roadster. Although, I'm still inspired by the F10.

Where do you guys find the place and time to push these cars so hard?

The new 6er should be a fine car but still will not bring the same knife edge characteristics to the table as the Z4MC, nor should it. I was just using the Z4MC as a contrast to the F10.

As to where we drive the way we do... it's a secret. :eeps: :D

richschneid
09-27-2010, 06:33 PM
You sell your 650i yet?

No. It's on the dealer's lot. Do you want it? Send me a private message. You can buy from me directly at a great price. The dealer wants me to try to sell it myself at no commission for him. It's like new with only 24,500 miles. You can even get it with certified pre owned BMW warranty for an extra $2500 or so.

Newmanium
09-27-2010, 07:34 PM
No. It's on the dealer's lot. Do you want it? Send me a private message. You can buy from me directly at a great price. The dealer wants me to try to sell it myself at no commission for him. It's like new with only 24,500 miles. You can even get it with certified pre owned BMW warranty for an extra $2500 or so.

No no, lol, just curious how the used market is. I put my 530i on Craigslist for 2 weeks and never heard a peep, noticed similars at dealers were going for just over my tradein offer and were languishing, so I got spooked and just traded in to avoid the hassle.

Just curious if you were faring any better - good luck.

HokieXDriver
09-27-2010, 07:53 PM
I dunno - I drove an F10 550 sport very, very hard at the BMW Performance Center in Greer SC on their track there. It was amazingly powerful and handled the second best of all the cars I tested there (only the M3 was in a higher league, but in my opinion it was too raw for me). I was amazed that such a big sedan could go around a track so fast, accelerate so hard, and brake like it was hitting a brick wall.

I also watched other, better drivers do the same circuit with that car. It looked amazing going around.

I have absolutely no doubt I will be buying another 5er after my E60 has run its course.

1HOT BMR
09-27-2010, 08:02 PM
The F10 is that upper class model you dated back in college. So damn pretty and well mannered and who gave you immediate status among men at any occassion. The E60 is the sporty quirky girl, a little bit too muscular and with a few scars here and there but oh so much fun were it really counts...

I think you may need a true sports car in addition to your F10, then you will have the best of both worlds. Just date the one you are in the mood for each time. :D

richschneid
09-28-2010, 03:46 AM
To clarify it's mainly about what it makes me want to do and not what it can do. Honestly, I could probably go faster in my SUV than what I did (not could) with my E60 on my favourite backroads. It would be an absolutely hair raising, tire squeeling affair to do so while with the E60 it was pure enjoyment and that's my point, not that the F10 isn't a capable car. I just feel it's a lot less inspiring and fun to drive so yeah you bet it's subjective but for me that's what a road car is all about since I'm not in a competition.

rich, I think I told you before that even the new 3 will be to small for me, that's why I'm a bit dissappointed that that the funfer is now less of a match for us that needs the space of a larger car but craves the sportiness and fun factor of a smaller car.

Sol, I think you are stuck in the middle here. Actually, I'm sorry you can't get the car you want. I hate to say this but I think the car you would really be happy with in terms of both size a sporty feel is way too expensive, the Porshe Panamera which starts at about $90,000. But I think you can tell from this thread that a lot of people are very happy with the F10.

SteVTEC
09-28-2010, 04:08 AM
Weren't people saying the same exact things about the E60 when it came out, vs the E39? 'Too big, too soft, not as sporty, 'a step backwards', etc.

pharding
09-28-2010, 06:46 AM
I just took delivery of my 11 550i here in Chicago after doing BMW European Delivery in July. Both are great cars. The F10 is better in every respect except for a very slight edge in handling going to the smaller E60. The F10 wins hands down overall and is extremely impressive and refined.

markl53
09-28-2010, 08:28 AM
No no, lol, just curious how the used market is. I put my 530i on Craigslist for 2 weeks and never heard a peep, noticed similars at dealers were going for just over my tradein offer and were languishing, so I got spooked and just traded in to avoid the hassle.

Just curious if you were faring any better - good luck.

Here's my recent experience trying to sell my '08 335i 6MT in excellent condition, though a few more miles than I would like (42K miles). It looked brand new inside and out. I live in the DC area, put an ad in the Wash. Post, cars.com and craigslist. Got a couple idiotic offers off craigslist as usual. Waited about 3 weeks and was getting ready to sell to a BMW/MB specialist dealer around here. Finally got 1 call from the newpaper ad and sold it for $1500 over what the dealer was giving me. Not at all like my experience selling my '05 330i back in '08, it was much easier to find interested buyers to sell to.

kenhamm
09-28-2010, 08:48 AM
I drove my F10 550 about 3000 miles while in Germany. The interior is far superior to the E60, the electronics are also much better with addtional features that I did not have on the E60, including a much improved Idrive (screen, nav etc). I would have to agree with Pharding on the handling, a slight edge goes to the E60, but there is more power with the F10. I do miss the engine sounds that the E60 550 made, when you first started the E60 550, that rumble was awesome. Now the styling, I owned 2 E60's, and yes the styling was controversial, but I have to say, I really liked the styling, it was different and it was very muscular and sporty at the same time. And you know what, it didnt look like any other BMW, I had several Germans tell me that it looked either like a larger 3 series or a smaller 7 series, I have to kinda agree. Dont get me wrong, I like the styling and I did get a lot of compliments while driving around Germany. Overall, I like the F10 and cant wait to take re-delivery, and the interior is really much better, I guess I am kinda going to miss that Bangle uniqueness.

FPNY
09-28-2010, 09:39 AM
I liked the style of the e60, I've had it over three years and still look out into my driveway to see it. I love seeing that car, and I will love the f10 too. I have an 08 535xi, when I get into that car I feel surrounded by quality. The way the buttons feel when you press one, the way the signal lever feels when you use it, the way the steering wheel feels, it's all excellent. My passengers always compliment the car too, they know they are in a car, not some tin box with seats in it. Yes, there were some draw backs to the 08, the idrive is clumsy, but I wouldnt let that stop me from buying, I hated the way the bangle butt looked, but I bought anyway. With all the complaints I know and all those I read, I still think this is far and away the best car in it's price range.

nealh
09-28-2010, 10:29 AM
I thought part of the issue was IAS on F10. Ithought the DHP gave the car the sportier feel with more driver connection without IAS

richschneid
09-28-2010, 04:07 PM
I had a 2008 535i with the sports package and now I have an F10 535i with the sports package and the dynamic handling package.

I've come to realize that luxuary is not really that important to me and not why I like bmws. I like them because of the handling and engines most of their cars posess. I also realized that I will likely never buy a seven series. The E60 is an amazing mid-size sedan. It's so tight and the way it hunkers down and sticks to the road and provides sports car like feedback and cornering is for sure a benchmark for it's size and segment.

The F10 is imo a luxuary cruiser with some mild sporting abilities. It feels big, comfortable and luxurious but unfortunately also quite un-inspiring. I find myself longing for a smaller sportier and "basic" car something that I never did with the E60.

What's your take? Are you woved by the undoubtly improved ride and exceptional refinement and luxury or do you find that the funfer has lost some of it's magic?

Just one last question, Sol. What is stopping you from continuing to drive an E60? You would have the car you like so much and save a lot of money as well. Even out of warranty the cost of ownership will still be less than the depreciation or leasing costs of an new F10. You can probably pick up a really good E60 535i or 550i at a very low price.

These cars are built to drive a long long time. Today I spoke with a guy I know who is still driving his 1983 733i with 175,000 miles that he bought new in 1983. Another guy I know is very happy driving his 1994 740i.

roxnadz
09-28-2010, 04:19 PM
Weren't people saying the same exact things about the E60 when it came out, vs the E39? 'Too big, too soft, not as sporty, 'a step backwards', etc.

Trust me, a lot of people still are saying that

solstice
09-28-2010, 05:13 PM
Just one last question, Sol. What is stopping you from continuing to drive an E60?

Hmmm...have you ever purchased a car and sold it within the first couple of months and saved a lot of money? Trust me, you lose dearly.
I'll hold on to it until it makes financial sense to trade it. And it will not be for an E60 since I don't buy used cars. I put high value on knowing the exact history of my cars. The F10 is not a bad car just less involving and fun than the E60. It's not like I can't live with it or stand it but I also think it's ok to express critcism and discuss things that I find a bit disappointing with other F10 or E60 owners don't you think?

That said, I pushed the car pretty hard today to get some fresh inputs. It's a very competent and efficient car that "handles" well for it's size I agree on that. With ARS it corners pretty flat, you get some sensation of body roll but l suspect it's mostly an illusion created by the poor lateral support from the seats that throws you side to side. So going fast and eating miles efficently is not a problem but since the car is low on feedback and feels "big" it's just less fun than the E60. It's like bmw didn't prioritize the fun factor and settled on clinically competent and efficient.

richschneid
09-28-2010, 06:09 PM
Just one last question, Sol. What is stopping you from continuing to drive an E60?

Hmmm...have you ever purchased a car and sold it within the first couple of months and saved a lot of money? Trust me, you lose dearly.
I'll hold on to it until it makes financial sense to trade it. And it will not be for an E60 since I don't buy used cars. I put high value on knowing the exact history of my cars. The F10 is not a bad car just less involving and fun than the E60. It's not like I can't live with it or stand it but I also think it's ok to express critcism and discuss things that I find a bit disappointing with other F10 or E60 owners don't you think?

That said, I pushed the car pretty hard today to get some fresh inputs. It's a very competent and efficient car that "handles" well for it's size I agree on that. With ARS it corners pretty flat, you get some sensation of body roll but l suspect it's mostly an illusion created by the poor lateral support from the seats that throws you side to side. So going fast and eating miles efficently is not a problem but since the car is low on feedback and feels "big" it's just less fun than the E60. It's like bmw didn't prioritize the fun factor and settled on clinically competent and efficient.

I guess you could have just kept you old E60. You probably didn't have the opportunity to drive a new F10 before you bought it.

pharding
09-28-2010, 06:43 PM
Some posters here don't have any friends outside of Bimmerfest and have very few friends here. Some people are socially challenged.

tadtaggert
09-28-2010, 06:45 PM
With ARS it corners pretty flat, you get some sensation of body roll but l suspect it's mostly an illusion created by the poor lateral support from the seats that throws you side to side.

It's the springs mostly, to get the levels of comfort BMW designed for the F10 it had to have softer springs. At least that part that you don't like can be easily fixed.

nealh
09-28-2010, 07:13 PM
It's the springs mostly, to get the levels of comfort BMW designed for the F10 it had to have softer springs. At least that part that you don't like can be easily fixed.
I think it it has more to do with ARS. Body roll is greatly reduced with it. I love the feel on my 650i

alex_c
09-28-2010, 07:28 PM
I just took delivery of my 11 550i here in Chicago after doing BMW European Delivery in July. Both are great cars. The F10 is better in every respect except for a very slight edge in handling going to the smaller E60. The F10 wins hands down overall and is extremely impressive and refined.

Congrats on getting your 550 back from Europe! I know it was a loooong wait...

Enjoy!

solstice
09-28-2010, 10:34 PM
pharding I'm also happy to hear that bmw fixed the steering sloppiness you experienced during your ED. I never experienced sloppiness but I always experience a vague center feel and numbness. During my ED I also had a few unsettling occasions where the steering suddenly jerked a degree or two with zero resistance. I haven't felt that back home but I also haven't driven such long, fast and spirited stretches so I don't feel sure that it's gone yet.

2008550I
09-28-2010, 10:52 PM
I had my 2008 E60 for 3 yrs. And while I enjoyed driving it and had few, if any complaints, I'm loving the styling and giddy-up of my F10. Not gonna over analyze as there's always gonna be room for improvement for me (still don't understand why they can't get the sunglass storage and cup holders right). But I'm still getting compliments from totally strange women and I still have fun driving it. As for for a point by point analysis, I'll leave that to the other folks here.
: popcorn:

solstice
09-28-2010, 11:00 PM
"compliments from totally strange women"

No compliments from normal or just strange women?
Seriously, I know what you mean and my daughters and wife are in love with our F10. As to other women I always thought it was me and not the car that caused the stir, < sound of a bubble bursting >.

richschneid
09-29-2010, 09:36 AM
Some posters here don't have any friends outside of Bimmerfest and have very few friends here. Some people are socially challenged.

People who make personal comments about other people's personalities are by definition the one's who are "socially challenged".

goodchip
09-30-2010, 07:50 PM
The F10 is that upper class model you dated back in college. So damn pretty and well mannered and who gave you immediate status among men at any occassion. The E60 is the sporty quirky girl, a little bit too muscular and with a few scars here and there but oh so much fun were it really counts...

I wish I'd said that!:thumbup:

pharding
10-01-2010, 01:31 AM
The F10 is a 5er that morphed into a different personality that is a near 7er at a lower price point. Now there is clearly more emphasis on Luxury and less emphasis on Sport. The cabin is larger and much more refined in the F10. The larger F10 does not handle quite as well as the E60 when comparably equipped at this time. The F10 is a great car with a slightly different personality than what BMW Sport Enthusiasts, like me, might prefer.

Undoubtedly this will prompt the Ultimate BMW Fan Boy, richschneid, to jump in and start slinging insults because I have expressed my own informed opinion. What he does not realize is that everyone here is entitled to express his/her own opinion because that is what a message board is for. That is what makes this message board interesting. Unfortunately some people cannot handle others expressing an opinion that differs from their own.

richschneid
10-01-2010, 02:50 AM
The F10 is a 5er that morphed into a different personality that is a near 7er at a lower price point. Now there is clearly more emphasis on Luxury and less emphasis on Sport. The cabin is larger and much more refined in the F10. The larger F10 does not handle quite as well as the E60 when comparably equipped at this time. The F10 is a great car with a slightly different personality than what BMW Sport Enthusiasts, like me, might prefer.

Undoubtedly this will prompt the Ultimate BMW Fan Boy, richschneid, to jump in and start slinging insults because I have expressed my own informed opinion. What he does not realize is that everyone here is entitled to express his/her own opinion because that is what a message board is for. That is what makes this message board interesting. Unfortunately some people cannot handle others expressing an opinion that differs from their own.

What is really amazing is that is seems you are unable to write a post without referring to me. It is possible to disagree with someone without calling them names. I totally agree with you that you should express your opinion as should everyone. I also have the right to express my opinion. It seems that the one opinion I cannot express is one that disagrees with you.

Now for the final irony. I also completely agree with you about the new F10 in terms of BMWs intentions as to its target consumer in this car. Or, actually it seems that now you agree with me.

"The larger F10 does not handle quite as well as the E60 when comparably equipped at this time."

This is probably precisely correct. The operative phrase here is "comparably equipped". My point is that, and always has been on this thread, that BMW has developed options for the F10 that do make the car into one that "BMW Sport Enthusiasts, like me, might prefer." If the F10 is equipped with DHP, IAS, sport automatic, sport package, and possibly with the same tires as the E60 it will handle as well as the E60.

Now one thing I have previously ommitted in this debate is distinction between "sportiness" and "performance". "Sportiness" is a subjective assessment. "Performance" is something that can be objectively measured. I think the options I mentioned above will enhance the objective performance numbers even if they don't give the car the same feel as an E60. So, I guess I have been remiss in that I have not drawn this distinction in the past and I apologize for that. Maybe that has led to some of these misunderstandings.

As you know I have owned both an E39 M5 and an E39 540i with sport package for a total of 6 years. I understand and appreciate the level of "sportiness" of the previous 5 series. The 650i I have owned for the past 5 years has the same basic underpinnings as the E60 and is also very "sporty", but not as much as the M6. The 650i is more refined than the E39 M5 and even though some people might consider it less "sporty" than the E39 M5 it actually handles much better despite the fact that it has active steering and ARS. I think it handles better, in part, because of the active steering and ARS in addition to the more sophisticated underlying suspension geometry. Similarly, the F10 has a much improved suspension over the 650i and E60. The feel is somewhat different however. I did, however, also drive the M6, and all the M cars, on the track in South Carolina at the BMW facility where I also took the two day driving course.

I guess my personal criteria for a car is performance, which is what I can feel when I drive a car. This includes such things as maximal lateral g forces, lane change capability, braking distance, and acceleration among others. It also include the subjective impressions such as minimal body lean in curves, which is why I like the ARS so much. But I also judge a car by its level of luxury and refinement. This includes sound level and ride quality.

For me to have a car with the luxury and refinement of a 7 series and the performance of my E39 M5 is a miracle of engineering and I for one thank BMW to be able to provide me with such a car even if it isn't perfect in every way. So in that sense I guess I am a "Fan Boy". "You Betcha".

I think your assessment of your car has evolved since you got it in a positive direction to the point where you and I basically agree about the car. Now I hope you and I can stop this back and forth vituperation and express our opinions without any attendent name calling such as "Fan Boy". I fully welcome your opinions and your right to disagree with me. I just think this is possible to do intelligently and without attacks on other people's personalities.

carnuts3
10-01-2010, 11:59 AM
I had a 2008 535i with the sports package and now I have an F10 535i with the sports package and the dynamic handling package.

I've come to realize that luxuary is not really that important to me and not why I like bmws. I like them because of the handling and engines most of their cars posess. I also realized that I will likely never buy a seven series. The E60 is an amazing mid-size sedan. It's so tight and the way it hunkers down and sticks to the road and provides sports car like feedback and cornering is for sure a benchmark for it's size and segment.

The F10 is imo a luxuary cruiser with some mild sporting abilities. It feels big, comfortable and luxurious but unfortunately also quite un-inspiring. I find myself longing for a smaller sportier and "basic" car something that I never did with the E60.

What's your take? Are you woved by the undoubtly improved ride and exceptional refinement and luxury or do you find that the funfer has lost some of it's magic?

Solstice, I coudn't have said it better - that's why I went out and ordered an S4... But I'm sure that I'll be back at some point.

PoleApart
10-02-2010, 03:11 AM
I had a 530d for 4 years and the F10 for 3 months. In one word the F10 is... progress. Those looking for the E60 experience will probably find it in the next 3 series. I loved my E60 but am not looking back and prefer the F10 even though I have less kit on it.

pharding - question to you - Was it by any chance you and your family that I ran into at a gas station in a town in Tuscany (Poggibonsi?) in Italy around July 16-17? Same car as in your sig, same colour, Euro delivery plates and I chatted a bit with one of the passengers who was surprised that I figured out that you were on a Euro Delivery fun drive. We were in 2-3 Ferraris on plates from various European countries.

DXK
10-02-2010, 12:10 PM
About the steering issue: I just came across the C&D road test of e60 535 and 550 and guess what it says:
"As delightful as the engine and ride are, the car is not perfect. Although nicely weighted, the schizophrenic steering is curiously twitchy and numb just off-center. Once the car is bent into a turn, confidence builds, but when traveling in a straight line, the 535i nervously feints after every irregularity in the road. Placing the car near the outside stripe on the pavement takes more faith than it should. This, of course, is a problem present in all 5-series models, regardless of engine choice."

richschneid
10-02-2010, 01:08 PM
About the steering issue: I just came across the C&D road test of e60 535 and 550 and guess what it says:
"As delightful as the engine and ride are, the car is not perfect. Although nicely weighted, the schizophrenic steering is curiously twitchy and numb just off-center. Once the car is bent into a turn, confidence builds, but when traveling in a straight line, the 535i nervously feints after every irregularity in the road. Placing the car near the outside stripe on the pavement takes more faith than it should. This, of course, is a problem present in all 5-series models, regardless of engine choice."

This is interesting. Some people on this blog have felt the same way when they first get the car. Then after some time they get used to it. We'll have to wait and see what people think. It is possible that C&D reviewers feel this way because it is so different from what they are used to and they only drive the car for a very short period of time. My 550i xDrive will have different steering, ie hydralic and not electric, so hopefully I won't have any problems.

solstice
10-02-2010, 01:11 PM
About the steering issue: I just came across the C&D road test of e60 535 and 550 and guess what it says:
"As delightful as the engine and ride are, the car is not perfect. Although nicely weighted, the schizophrenic steering is curiously twitchy and numb just off-center. Once the car is bent into a turn, confidence builds, but when traveling in a straight line, the 535i nervously feints after every irregularity in the road. Placing the car near the outside stripe on the pavement takes more faith than it should. This, of course, is a problem present in all 5-series models, regardless of engine choice."

Sounds like their car had a "toe-out" problem, that could easily been tuned. My E60 did not have any of those issues. The F10s problem is imo much more severe since I don't think just simple adjustments are needed to cure the ever present numbness.

DXK
10-02-2010, 01:11 PM
This about e60, Rich, not f10

DXK
10-02-2010, 01:19 PM
Sounds like their car had a "toe-out" problem, that could easily been tuned. My E60 did not have any of those issues. The F10s problem is imo much more severe since I don't think just simple adjustments needed to cure the ever present numbness.

Don't know about that. The point is, though, they have complained about e60's steering on some tests and placed it behind A6, and now they're saying e60 was great, why change anything and placed it behind A6 again in comparo. The e60 test was done by Tony Swan, btw.

richschneid
10-02-2010, 01:20 PM
This about e60, Rich, not f10

Sorry, my mistake. I certainly didn't have this problem with my 650i, a car similar to the E60.

richschneid
10-02-2010, 01:23 PM
Don't know about that. The point is, though, they have complained about e60's steering on some tests and placed it behind A6, and now they're saying e60 was great, why change anything and placed it behind A6 again in comparo. The e60 test was done by Tony Swan, btw.

I have had problems with Tony Swan in the past. I even called him personally twice in Ann Arbor and left messages for him to call me back. Of course, he didn't. I thought one of his complaints about a BMW was inaccurate. He seems to have an underlying prejudice against BMWs.

solstice
10-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Once I've driven a car I don't need anyone to tell me how it feels etc. It is what it is to me not what anyone else writes. It is however good that problems like these are reported in the big mags since it's more likely bmw will listen.

DXK
10-02-2010, 01:50 PM
Once I've driven a car I don't need anyone to tell me how it feels etc. It is what it is to me not what anyone else writes. It is however good that problems like these are reported in the big mags since it's more likely bmw will listen.

:thumbup: