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bikerboy
10-06-2010, 06:26 PM
Just looked at Dinan site and see that the computer upgrade is available for $3,000.
495 H.P. However, one BIG PROBLEM.....It specifically states not available for 550ix. Not good. My 550ix is to be delivered either next week or week after. Anyone discuss this issue with Dinan?

tadtaggert
10-06-2010, 07:51 PM
I would expect that Dinan will address the x-Drive model in turn. x-Drives just hitting the US market, Dinan won't release software for a car they haven't developed/tested on.

HPIA4v2
10-07-2010, 07:06 AM
Just looked at Dinan site and see that the computer upgrade is available for $3,000.
495 H.P. However, one BIG PROBLEM.....It specifically states not available for 550ix. Not good. My 550ix is to be delivered either next week or week after. Anyone discuss this issue with Dinan?
Maybe just not tested yet but maybe Steve Dinan is concerned with xfer case longevity (in the middle of driveline of X-drive) with all that extra power.
But again maybe you just need to install the X6-M version of xfer case and call it good:bigpimp:

Just visited Dinan web site, just S/W update no FMIC, bigger fuel injectors nor oil cooler is needed; BMW really over engineer this N63 (hopefully).

Emilner
10-07-2010, 07:25 AM
$3g's? Ouch...

richschneid
10-07-2010, 08:18 AM
I was considering installing the Dinan software on my 550i xDrive. But after driving it for a few days I realized that the stock version is so unbelievably fast that the Dinan might be superfluous.

HPIA4v2
10-07-2010, 09:57 AM
I was considering installing the Dinan software on my 550i xDrive. But after driving it for a few days I realized that the stock version is so unbelievably fast that the Dinan might be superfluous.
+1
especially with many city/Co budget cuts, the police is everywhere here in Seattle area.

tadtaggert
10-07-2010, 09:57 AM
I was considering installing the Dinan software on my 550i xDrive. But after driving it for a few days I realized that the stock version is so unbelievably fast that the Dinan might be superfluous.

It does have to be felt to be appreciated!

bklyn550
10-07-2010, 10:24 AM
Score one for all of us with the true sports model the 550i no xdrive....about time someone did something for us.

jeff650
10-07-2010, 12:21 PM
...unless you're in California where the Dinan software upgrades aren't legal for street cars. Out of curiosity, what have others in CA done to get Dinan engine remapping upgrades - does one have to go to a Dinan dealer out of state, or ???

jimefam
10-07-2010, 12:40 PM
I agree the 550i is plenty powerful in stock form. With that said I'm getting this installed asap when mine arrives! And when stage 2 and 3 come out I'm getting them too! Along with any other mods dinan offers. Can't ever have too much power! Then again I'm 25 yrs old and can't wait to dyno and drag my 550i!

richschneid
10-07-2010, 01:33 PM
Score one for all of us with the true sports model the 550i no xdrive....about time someone did something for us.

Actually, all the really high end sports cars and sedans like the Panamera Turbo, and certein supercars such as Lamgorghini are are AWD. The Dinan software increases the torque from 450 to 570 lb ft. You really need AWD to put that much torque on the pavement. That's why 0-60 times are faster on the 550i xDrive than on the rear drive 550i. BTW I'm from Brooklyn. :thumbup:

jimefam
10-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Actually no all the really high end sports cars are rwd the 911 turbo has awd so it can have that impressive 0-60 time so they can sell it to doctors who don't know any better. But all their performance variants such as the gt2, carrera gt, and the gt2 rs are rwd. The awd is the first thing they drop. Same with the lambo that's why you don't see it on ferraris or pretty much any other "high end sports car"

richschneid
10-07-2010, 02:06 PM
Just got off the phone with Scott at Dinan in California.

1. Software upgrade for the 550i xDrive should be available in November.
2. Dinan is legal in California, it just has to first have state certified emissions testing which Dinan gets on all its upgrades.
3. 495 hp 573 lb ft of torque.
4. No problem with durability on xDrive drivetrain. If anything xDrive is stronger.

OMG, just might to it. I'm only two miles from a BMW Dinan dealer. WOW! :drive:

jeff650
10-07-2010, 02:13 PM
Just got off the phone with Scott at Dinan in California.

2. Dinan is legal in California, it just has to first have state certified emissions testing which Dinan gets on all its upgrades.


Except that even on their website Dinan, all of their engine retune software products only show as 49 state legal (and guess which state beginning with a "C" is the one that isn't). And with the 550i S/W they strongly state that is for use on racing vehicles only which shall not be driven on public roads. I'm not sure where Scott is coming from.....

richschneid
10-07-2010, 02:17 PM
Actually no all the really high end sports cars are rwd the 911 turbo has awd so it can have that impressive 0-60 time so they can sell it to doctors who don't know any better. But all their performance variants such as the gt2, carrera gt, and the gt2 rs are rwd. The awd is the first thing they drop. Same with the lambo that's why you don't see it on ferraris or pretty much any other "high end sports car"

So, why does the Panamera turbo do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. Maybe, I understand this because I'm also a physicist and they sell the RWD cars to people like you who don't understand physics. Physicists understand that torque is only useful if it can be transmitted to the pavement without creating wheelspin. Four wheels can just transmit more torque to the pavement at low speeds, when there is more torque multiplication, than two wheels. That's just simply because of the laws of physics, not medicine.

Maybe only Porsche Audi products like Lambo use AWD because it is on so many of their vehicles. In any case, AWD is certainly not just for doctors. I have never had an AWD car and I graduated med school in 1973.

But I agree that on the track RWD may have certain benefits on the track, but if you don't go to the track I think AWD is a much better choice with 573 lb ft of torque. The main detriment of AWD drive on the track is high end performance because of the added weight and drivetrain inertia. This will definitely impair performance at speeds over 100 mph. I will leave a RWD 550i in the dust at a stop light.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Except that even on their website Dinan, all of their engine retune software products only show as 49 state legal (and guess which state beginning with a "C" is the one that isn't). And with the 550i S/W they strongly state that is for use on racing vehicles only which shall not be driven on public roads. I'm not sure where Scott is coming from.....

Why don't you give him a call at 1-800-341-5480. He's probably in the office for a couple more hours. One of the techs at my local BMW dealer installs Dinan. He has the software on his personal 135i, 380 hp, and uses it daily. Maybe Dinan states that to cover themselves legally. But what percent of BMW owners who have the software actually ever use it on the track. I doubt it is a majority. Have you ever seen any statistics?

Newmanium
10-07-2010, 02:45 PM
So, why does the Panamera turbo do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. Maybe, I understand this because I'm also a physicist and they sell the RWD cars to people like you who don't understand physics. Physicists understand that torque is only useful if it can be transmitted to the pavement without creating wheelspin. Four wheels can just transmit more torque to the pavement at low speeds, when there is more torque multiplication, than two wheels. That's just simply because of the laws of physics, not medicine.


Heh, come on, this isn't a battle of qualifications. It doesn't even take a college degree to understand wheelspin/AWD/torque consideration.

There's no one "right" approach - AWD has its advantages/disadvantages. Obviously helps with initial traction, but not really a key determinant on the track as evidenced by all the respectable high-end sports cars that are RWD.

It's certainly not a "sporty-disqualification" thing to have AWD, however - 911 Turbo, GT-R, and Lambo's are legit sports cars.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Except that even on their website Dinan, all of their engine retune software products only show as 49 state legal (and guess which state beginning with a "C" is the one that isn't). And with the 550i S/W they strongly state that is for use on racing vehicles only which shall not be driven on public roads. I'm not sure where Scott is coming from.....

This is a direct quote from the Dinan website:

"Dinan's 335 Software is 50 State Emissions Legal under California Air Resources Board Executive Order Number D-176-35."

There is no mention of any illegality on public roads for the BMW 335i engine upgrades mentioned anywhere. I have no reason to doubt that Scott is correct that the 550i upgrades will also be legal after emission cerification.

jimefam
10-07-2010, 02:56 PM
So, why does the Panamera turbo do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. Maybe, I understand this because I'm also a physicist and they sell the RWD cars to people like you who don't understand physics. Physicists understand that torque is only useful if it can be transmitted to the pavement without creating wheelspin. Four wheels can just transmit more torque to the pavement at low speeds, when there is more torque multiplication, than two wheels. That's just simply because of the laws of physics, not medicine.

Maybe only Porsche Audi products like Lambo use AWD because it is on so many of their vehicles. In any case, AWD is certainly not just for doctors. I have never had an AWD car and I graduated med school in 1973.

But I agree that on the track RWD may have certain benefits on the track, but if you don't go to the track I think AWD is a much better choice with 573 lb ft of torque. The main detriment of AWD drive on the track is high end performance because of the added weight and drivetrain inertia. This will definitely impair performance at speeds over 100 mph. I will leave a RWD 550i in the dust at a stop light.

Like I said if you Limit "high end sports cars" to 0-60 times then by all means tout awd as the best thing since sliced bread. And you can be a physicist/engineer/doctor/mathematician all you want but every really "high end sports car" and professional race cars are ALL rwd so you can pull out all the torque multiplication pie charts and other "facts" you want but I bet any race car driver will tell you if we are discussing "high end sports cars" there are other factors to be considered besides 0-60 times. By the way that 550i you "dusted" off the line? He's smoked you by the 1/4 mile professor.

jimefam
10-07-2010, 03:10 PM
Heh, come on, this isn't a battle of qualifications. It doesn't even take a college degree to understand wheelspin/AWD/torque consideration.

There's no one "right" approach - AWD has its advantages/disadvantages. Obviously helps with initial traction, but not really a key determinant on the track as evidenced by all the respectable high-end sports cars that are RWD.

It's certainly not a "sporty-disqualification" thing to have AWD, however - 911 Turbo, GT-R, and Lambo's are legit sports cars.

I agree that all of those cars are indeed sports cars. But the statement I wanted to dispel was "all the really high end sports cars are awd" which is obviously incorrect and I see has since been amended. Also if you were to want to increase the all around performance of those cars you mentioned and not just off the line performance the very first thing you would do is drop the awd as evidenced by every one of those companies doing so when trying to create a high performance variable.

jeff650
10-07-2010, 03:24 PM
This is a direct quote from the Dinan website:

"Dinan's 335 Software is 50 State Emissions Legal under California Air Resources Board Executive Order Number D-176-35."

There is no mention of any illegality on public roads for the BMW 335i engine upgrades mentioned anywhere. I have no reason to doubt that Scott is correct that the 550i upgrades will also be legal after emission cerification.

Here's my reason to doubt - the E63, E65, E66, F01, E60, and E71 platforms all are not legal in the CA, and many of these have been for sale for a number of years and have still not been qualified by Dinan in the California. It appears that Dinan has never qualified any of their solutions for V8s in California, and thus far has not made any moves to do so. I hope this changes with the F10, but to date their track record on this hasn't been promising.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 03:38 PM
Like I said if you Limit "high end sports cars" to 0-60 times then by all means tout awd as the best thing since sliced bread. And you can be a physicist/engineer/doctor/mathematician all you want but every really "high end sports car" and professional race cars are ALL rwd so you can pull out all the torque multiplication pie charts and other "facts" you want but I bet any race car driver will tell you if we are discussing "high end sports cars" there are other factors to be considered besides 0-60 times. By the way that 550i you "dusted" off the line? He's smoked you by the 1/4 mile professor.

That's what I said, can't you read. On the race track this is correct. On the road where I drive it is not. Actually the 1/4 mile time is faster in the AWD 13.1 vs 13.2 both at 109 mph if I remember correctly. I am talking about under 100 mph, so I was ahead at the 1/4 mile. I almost never drive at 100 mph, do you? Race car drivers almost always do. Now if you increase the torque to 573 lb ft the difference will be even more than 0.1 second. Let's say it goes up to 0.2 seconds. 109 mph is 160 ft/sec. So, 0.2 seconds would put me 32 ft or about two car lengths ahead at the 1/4 mile. 0.1 second would be about 16 feet, or one car length. Of course , this calculation is not entirely accurate because increasing the torque and power with the Dinan software will increase the speed to more than 109 mph so the distance ahead would be even more. But of course, the time differential might be slightly more or less than 0.2 seconds, which might be another reason for this estimate to be inaccurate.

Now, if you disagree with these calculations, please state the reasons for such disagreement and don't make personal comments. I will be happy to take your disagreement seriously and try to respond in an intelligent and respectful manner.

Please in future to do not imtimate that doctors are too stupid to understand cars. Limit your comments to cars and do not cast aspersions on other people's education, intelligence, or chosen occupation. Thanks.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 03:44 PM
Heh, come on, this isn't a battle of qualifications. It doesn't even take a college degree to understand wheelspin/AWD/torque consideration.

There's no one "right" approach - AWD has its advantages/disadvantages. Obviously helps with initial traction, but not really a key determinant on the track as evidenced by all the respectable high-end sports cars that are RWD.

It's certainly not a "sporty-disqualification" thing to have AWD, however - 911 Turbo, GT-R, and Lambo's are legit sports cars.

You are correct. I stand corrected. I should have said "some" not "all". But he was the one who said "doctors who don't know any better". But I still think for normal street use a high torque vehicle will have better overall performance with AWD than RWD. This is not true for lower torque vehicles. I think that overall for performance averaged from 0-100 mph the 550i xDrive will outperform the RWD even in handling because the AWD can limit understeer by transferring the torque from rear to front in high speed tight corners and curves. Of course, in rear engine sports cars such as a Porsche 911 understeer is not as much of a problem. But we are comparing the 550i RWD the 550i xDrive.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 04:10 PM
Here's my reason to doubt - the E63, E65, E66, F01, E60, and E71 platforms all are not legal in the CA, and many of these have been for sale for a number of years and have still not been qualified by Dinan in the California. It appears that Dinan has never qualified any of their solutions for V8s in California, and thus far has not made any moves to do so. I hope this changes with the F10, but to date their track record on this hasn't been promising.

Thanks for the information. I hope they do it this time so you can get it if you want to. So, I guess that the problem is with emissions and not the extra power that makes it unsafe for use on public roads. Is that correct?

jimefam
10-07-2010, 04:15 PM
That's what I said, can't you read. On the race track this is correct. On the road where I drive it is not. Actually the 1/4 mile time is faster in the AWD 13.1 vs 13.2 both at 109 mph if I remember correctly. I am talking about under 100 mph, so I was ahead at the 1/4 mile.

I don't give a damn where you drive my initial reply to your post was to correct your absurd statement that "all the really high end sports cars are awd" which you have since retracted and edited to be slightly less absurd. You could have said that a "few" not all or even some but a few really high end sports cars are awd you would have been correct. Plus you forgot the best example of your argument which is the veyron. And thanks to the fact that I can read I correct you when you speak.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 04:20 PM
I don't give a damn where you drive my initial reply to your post was to correct your absurd statement that "all the really high end sports cars are awd" which you have since retracted and edited to be slightly less absurd. You could have said that a "few" not all or even some but a few really high end sports cars are awd you would have been correct. Plus you forgot the best example of your argument which is the veyron. And thanks to the fact that I can read I correct you when you speak.

I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your disrespectful reference to doctors. That's why I said "can't you read". I would not normally make such a disrespectful remark. And calling me names like "professor" in a derogatory way is also impolite.

Thanks for pointing out the reference to the Veyron. If you hadn't made the reference to doctors I would have just agreed with you and admitted my mistake as I did subsequently. But I still think the 550i xDrive with the Dinan will blow the pants off the RWD version in the quarter mile. Do you agree? If not, why?

bklyn550
10-07-2010, 04:21 PM
They are not faster rich cause the 550i has and 8 speed zf transmission....while i do agree that porshce and lambo do have high end sports cars BMW is no where near having a 4wd transmission that matches their shift points etc...BMW will one day but for now everyone can keep the xdrive badge ill spin my wheeels lol cause once we hit 60 im gone and the xdrive is out of teh race....that being said i hope they do make it for the xdress....i mean drive...:rofl:

bklyn550
10-07-2010, 04:25 PM
Xdrive i cool if your into snow and stuff but come on bmw's heritage is awesome rear wheel cars...face it....you cant claim that the xdrive in a sedan is anything near a lambo or a porsche trust me i have drivenn gallardos, gt2s etc its a different animal all together....i am sure they make some edgy cool baby on board signs by now.

in the quartermile they will prob be close with 550i beating the xi by .2- .3 sconds the shift point and fatter gears in the 550 along with 8 speeds will do this

bklyn550
10-07-2010, 04:29 PM
They are not faster rich cause the 550i has and 8 speed zf transmission....while i do agree that porshce and lambo do have high end sports cars BMW is no where near having a 4wd transmission that matches their shift points etc...BMW will one day but for now everyone can keep the xdrive badge ill spin my wheeels lol cause once we hit 60 im gone and the xdrive is out of teh race....that being said i hope they do make it for the xdress....i mean drive...:rofl:

richschneid
10-07-2010, 04:32 PM
They are not faster rich cause the 550i has and 8 speed zf transmission....while i do agree that porshce and lambo do have high end sports cars BMW is no where near having a 4wd transmission that matches their shift points etc...BMW will one day but for now everyone can keep the xdrive badge ill spin my wheeels lol cause once we hit 60 im gone and the xdrive is out of teh race....that being said i hope they do make it for the xdress....i mean drive...:rofl:

This has changed somewhat with the new xDrive because it's more efficient than previous versions of BMW AWD. As I quoted above the lastest test that was posted on this site indicated the quarter mile time for the 550i xDrive is 13.1 seconds and the RWD is 13.2 seconds. Both with the same 8-speed. If this is incorrect please give me the reference. So the rear drive version doesn't catch up until after the 1/4 mile. So it's not just 0-60 its even the 1/4 mile. Of course, I'm not comparing BMWs to Lambos and Porsches. I'm comparing BMWs to BMWs and Porsches to Porsches.

The new 8-speed ZF sport transmission is lightning fast. What about it don't you like?

richschneid
10-07-2010, 04:43 PM
Just checked the Porsche website. They don't even make the Panamera Turbo in a RWD version. The Panamera S does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. The Panamera 4S does it in 4.8 seconds. 0.4 second is a lot of ground to make up in the quarter. But they don't list 1/4 mile times. But I do think it says something that they don't even make a rear drive version of the Turbo.

jimefam
10-07-2010, 04:55 PM
I wasn't responding to that. I was responding to your disrespectful reference to doctors. That's why I said "can't you read". I would not normally make such a disrespectful remark. And calling me names like "professor" in a derogatory way is also impolite.

Thanks for pointing out the reference to the Veyron. If you hadn't made the reference to doctors I would have just agreed with you and admitted my mistake as I did subsequently. But I still think the 550i xDrive with the Dinan will blow the pants off the RWD version in the quarter mile. Do you agree? If not, why?

I will reserve my opinion until I have more facts as I don't know what the increase in weight is with the xdrive nor have I seen any tests conducted on any f10 xdrive vehicle. It is possible that the awd will still retain a slight advantage at the 1/4 mile but I don't think so. Specially that I don't drag race in the street and on the track I would be sporting slicks so that will help with the traction. However on a road course the awd would only help an inexperienced driver. Someone who knows how to handle their vehicle will take the rwd and bank the weight savings everytime. As for the professor remark I actually think it's quite fitting as it is certainly your M.O. to lecture everyone on here and present your opinions as fact.

jimefam
10-07-2010, 05:02 PM
Just checked the Porsche website. They don't even make the Panamera Turbo in a RWD version. The Panamera S does 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. The Panamera 4S does it in 4.8 seconds. 0.4 second is a lot of ground to make up in the quarter. But they don't list 1/4 mile times. But I do think it says something that they don't even make a rear drive version of the Turbo.

This is a new model of which no performance variables have been made. You'd get a better idea comparing 911 models. Also the main reason I took that shot at you with the doctor thing is because you keep using straight line performance as the end all be all of high performance vehicles. This is far from reality. I have a friend who has a fwd Honda civic that runs tens in quarter mile! I certainly would not qualify his specialty vehicle as a good sports car as I'm sure I'd smoke him with an m3 on a road course.

richschneid
10-07-2010, 06:29 PM
I will reserve my opinion until I have more facts as I don't know what the increase in weight is with the xdrive nor have I seen any tests conducted on any f10 xdrive vehicle. It is possible that the awd will still retain a slight advantage at the 1/4 mile but I don't think so. Specially that I don't drag race in the street and on the track I would be sporting slicks so that will help with the traction. However on a road course the awd would only help an inexperienced driver. Someone who knows how to handle their vehicle will take the rwd and bank the weight savings everytime. As for the professor remark I actually think it's quite fitting as it is certainly your M.O. to lecture everyone on here and present your opinions as fact.

You may be peceiving it as "lecturing". I consider it presenting my opinion just like everyone else. Of course, as I have said, on a race course the weight issue is important. But this thread is about the F10. In particular we were discussing the performance of the 550i xDrive verses the 550i RWD. The appropriate comparison would be for the same professional driver to drive both cars on a road course. In this case the weight would favor the RWD car. But the ability to transfer the torque front to rear would favor the AWD car because of the ability to control relative oversteer and understeer. In a lightweight racing car this may not be a large a factor as it is in a sedan that weighs more than 4300 pounds.

You might want to read the test report on the X6 5.0 which weighs 5000 lbs and was said to handle like a sports car with xDrive. The BMW xDrive system is a highly sophisticated computer controled system that can actually enhance the handling of such large vehicles on a track. The weight of the system is only about 150 lbs, so as a percentage of the total vehicle weight it becomes less and the weight disadvantage becomes proportionally less.

The 550i weighs around 4350 and the xi is around 4500. I would like to see a professional driver test the lap times for both on a road course. But in terms of straight line acceleration for a 1/4 mile I think the AWD makes up for the added weight by the ability to more effectively utilize the huge amount of low end torque. I think the greater the low end torque the more the advantage of the AWD version. This is born out with the numbers we have so far, which I mentioned above. With the Dinan version generating 573 lb ft of torque the advantage to the AWD version in the 1/4 mile is huge.

So, when you see a company like Porsche make it's newest four door sedan with it's very high powered turbo version only in AWD one has to think that the equation is shifting to AWD over RWD in non race cars, especially in sedans over 4000 lbs. The same concept even applies to the 1000hp Veryon as you brought up even though it is not that heavy.

Now, I hope you don't consider this a "lecture", I'm just expressing my opinion and giving the reasoning behind it. I consider taking the time to explain my reasoning is a sign of respect to others, not a sign of disrespect. Have pleasant evening. :thumbup:

DXK
10-07-2010, 06:59 PM
Rich, you forget to mention something: weight distribution i - 52.4 / 47.6, xi - 53.9 / 46.1 , Center of gravity is higher, the tires are all seasons and not high performance.
Anyway, why are you not out driving your new car? Go see some fall colors or something.

KCComp
10-07-2010, 07:23 PM
What is the Dinan warranty situation, really?

Out of my area BMW dealers, one who is a Dinan dealer says everything is fine, it's warranted. The other who is not a Dinan dealer anymore says they dropped Dinan because BMW is no longer honoring reciprocal warranties over some disagreement about Dinan reducing structural integrity in M5 frames.

The non-Dinan dealer is the closest one, where I would have most service performed, I'm concerned that they would blame any problems on the Dinan mod, and even if I then took my car to the Dinan dealer, the car may have been put on some BMW blacklist.

jimefam
10-07-2010, 07:54 PM
What is the Dinan warranty situation, really?

Out of my area BMW dealers, one who is a Dinan dealer says everything is fine, it's warranted. The other who is not a Dinan dealer anymore says they dropped Dinan because BMW is no longer honoring reciprocal warranties over some disagreement about Dinan reducing structural integrity in M5 frames.

The non-Dinan dealer is the closest one, where I would have most service performed, I'm concerned that they would blame any problems on the Dinan mod, and even if I then took my car to the Dinan dealer, the car may have been put on some BMW blacklist.

The situation is this, if you get the dinan upgrade it will void your warranty period. It is supposed to be that if it's a problem caused by dinan they will take care of it. If it's not dinan then BMW should fix it but it never works out that way. BMW will tell you it's do to the software and dinan will say no it's bmw's fault. The only sane option in my opinion is to take it the a BMW dealership that also sells dinan that way they have to fix it regardless who is at fault.

bklyn550
10-07-2010, 09:09 PM
Call up the stig he will do a top gear special on the 550 battle... x drive still for soccer moms.

Sent from my Nexus One using BimmerApp

tadtaggert
10-07-2010, 09:17 PM
The other who is not a Dinan dealer anymore says they dropped Dinan because BMW is no longer honoring reciprocal warranties over some disagreement about Dinan reducing structural integrity in M5 frames.

The E60 frame, specifically on the M5, was almost a failure. Not enough structural rigidity. It could not adequately handle what tuners were throwing at it. This is not the case with the F10, and one of the reasons for the solid steel chassis on the F10 (and to a smaller extent some of the extra weight) is to directly address the needs/desires of tuners.

At least this is what BMW engineers have said.

KCComp
10-08-2010, 12:41 AM
Supposedly (according to this dealer) Dinan was going even further by cutting reliefs in the frame for intake or headers or something.

In any case, the burning question at hand is, what is the Dinan warranty situation? I read Dinan's warranty description on their site, but if it isn't reciprocal with BMW anymore, what if Dinan goes out of business, or refuses to honor a huge engine-replacement warranty claim? It doesn't take many big warranty claims to erase the profit on their $3K upgrade price. Theoretical worst-case? All of the Dinan boosted 50i engines blow up after 15K miles or something. Dinan isn't a big enough company to absorb that financially.

Honestly I'd rather their upgrade was more expensive, since it would seem more likely that they'd have a financial buffer to honor warranty claims. Look at what a third-party extended warranty costs for a twin-turbo car. It's more than Dinan is charging for their whole software upgrade.

richschneid
10-08-2010, 02:33 AM
Rich, you forget to mention something: weight distribution i - 52.4 / 47.6, xi - 53.9 / 46.1 , Center of gravity is higher, the tires are all seasons and not high performance.
Anyway, why are you not out driving your new car? Go see some fall colors or something.

Wasn't feeling well yesterday, so just stayed home. You are correct about the weight distribution and the tires. But the RWD version is still equipped with only grand touring tires. Since I use snows in the winter, I will eventually replace the Goodyears with Potenzas in the summer. There are so many trees in Pittsburgh that all you have to do to see the leaves is go outside. But I will be driving to NY Monday and will see the trees in central Pa.

The weight problem is partially solved by putting a spare in the trunk. :rofl:

richschneid
10-08-2010, 03:12 AM
Call up the stig he will do a top gear special on the 550 battle... x drive still for soccer moms.

Sent from my Nexus One using BimmerApp

My stepson is 17 and just left for college. He used to play a lot of soccer. If he were still home I would buy my wife the AWD Porsche 911 Turbo S for $162,000. Or maybe the Porsche Panamera Turbo with AWD for $150,000 because it has more room for the soccer equipment. :rofl:

richschneid
10-08-2010, 03:35 AM
This is a new model of which no performance variables have been made. You'd get a better idea comparing 911 models. Also the main reason I took that shot at you with the doctor thing is because you keep using straight line performance as the end all be all of high performance vehicles. This is far from reality. I have a friend who has a fwd Honda civic that runs tens in quarter mile! I certainly would not qualify his specialty vehicle as a good sports car as I'm sure I'd smoke him with an m3 on a road course.

Last night before I went to sleep I was reading the new C&D, November issue. There is a comparison test that includes the AWD Porsche 911 Turbo S for $162,000 and the RWD Ferrari 458 Italia for $270,000.

The Ferrari has more hp per pound than the Porshe so you would expect it to be faster in the 1/4 mile. But here's the difference. The weight is almost the same, Ferrari 3451 lbs, the Porsche 3491. The Porshe weighs a little more, maybe because of the AWD. The Porsche has 516 lb ft of torque at 2100 rpm and the Ferrari has only 398 lb ft of torque at 6000 rpm. The Porshe completely blows the Ferrari out of the water in both 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

0-60: Porsche 2.7 seconds, Ferrari 3.3 seconds.
1/4 mile: Porsche 10.8 seconds at 129 mph, Ferrari 11.5 seconds at 125 mph

While you are correct the Ferrari has faster lap times on the race track:

Ferrari 1:32.7 with average speed of 66.0 mph
Porsche 1:33.2 with average speed of 65.7 mph

While it is true that to do a more accurate comparison of RWD to AWD one would have to compare the RWD version of the Porsche 911 Turbo S to the AWD version, I don't know if Porsche makes a RWD version. But again I think it says something that Porshe doesn't even make a RWD version of the Panamera Turbo, which is a better basis of comparison to the F10 because it is also a four door sedan.

So, that's why I think the xDrive version of the 550i will beat the the RWD version in the 1/4 and 0-60. Lap times will have to await a direct comparison, but that is only fair if both cars are equipped with the same tires. :)

richschneid
10-08-2010, 05:14 AM
The situation is this, if you get the dinan upgrade it will void your warranty period. It is supposed to be that if it's a problem caused by dinan they will take care of it. If it's not dinan then BMW should fix it but it never works out that way. BMW will tell you it's do to the software and dinan will say no it's bmw's fault. The only sane option in my opinion is to take it the a BMW dealership that also sells dinan that way they have to fix it regardless who is at fault.

I also have two BMW dealers. The one where I buy my cars and get them serviced is 9 miles away. The closer one is also a Dinan dealer and is 2 miles away. The service manager at the non Dinan dealer, the one at which I get my car serviced, told me without any equivocation whatsoever that having the Dinan software does NOT affect the BMW waranty is any way.

Of course, if there is a problem caused by the Dinan and there is some dispute over this, I can just bring it to the Dinan BMW dealer to be fixed and they will work it out between the two companies without me having to get involved. I spoke at length with the service technician who installs the Dinan software at the closer BMW dealer and he confirmed this to me.

These two dealerships compete with each other for my business and neither one has anything to gain by causing me problems. :thumbup:

bklyn550
10-08-2010, 07:48 AM
i ship cars rich so whenever your ready let me know...

CarBrain
10-08-2010, 09:39 AM
My stepson is 17 and just left for college. He used to play a lot of soccer. If he were still home I would buy my wife the AWD Porsche 911 Turbo S for $162,000. Or maybe the Porsche Panamera Turbo with AWD for $150,000 because it has more room for the soccer equipment. :rofl:

Older doctors are so lucky. They have very low student loans (if any) and they make a lot of money in the golden years. They are able to buy big home for less and its worth have risen dramatically. They then have money to buy nice and expensive cars.

For younger doctors, paying back the huge medical student loans is the pain in the butt and we don't think about Porsche 911 that readily.

bklyn550
10-08-2010, 12:49 PM
Bottom line... bmw is not Porsche or lambo... its our choice of car. If u lime 4 wd just wait dinan said soon you will get ur upgrade. I will stick to rwd bmw as i feel this is the way it was meant to be... maybe i will get a cl63 4matic next lol

bikerboy
10-08-2010, 05:02 PM
Have you driven a C63? It is wicked fast and handles. Not like any mercedes I have seen. I had a 05 E55. The power was intoxicating. Knowing you're the fastest guy at that light, when the road narrows and you've got to get in, is something you need to experience before any comments are justified. There is a certain satisfaction knowing you've got all the power you'll ever need for any occasion. I'm not saying that 400 hp is not a quick ride, but 495 hp is altogether different. As for this argument about rwd vs. awd, it's becoming boring.

Before I put down my deposit on a 550ix I went to see a friend of mine who races GTP cars. I'm talking about cars worth $250,000 and up. He's hired to drive all over the country. He's extremely fast and knows more about driving than any editor for any car magazine. Or for that matter, anyone on this forum. He also owns a tuner shop that works on Porsches and BMW's. I told him about putting in Dinan for 495 hp and asked which car I should get, rwd or awd. He said, "no question, awd." Told me the biggest problem M5 guys have is getting traction. I'm going with the opinion of a guy I have personally watched smoke GTP cars that raced at Lemans with professional drivers. This discussion about awd vs. rwd is a bunch of boys sticking their dicks out.

richschneid
10-08-2010, 06:04 PM
Have you driven a C63? It is wicked fast and handles. Not like any mercedes I have seen. I had a 05 E55. The power was intoxicating. Knowing you're the fastest guy at that light, when the road narrows and you've got to get in, is something you need to experience before any comments are justified. There is a certain satisfaction knowing you've got all the power you'll ever need for any occasion. I'm not saying that 400 hp is not a quick ride, but 495 hp is altogether different. As for this argument about rwd vs. awd, it's becoming boring.

Before I put down my deposit on a 550ix I went to see a friend of mine who races GTP cars. I'm talking about cars worth $250,000 and up. He's hired to drive all over the country. He's extremely fast and knows more about driving than any editor for any car magazine. Or for that matter, anyone on this forum. He also owns a tuner shop that works on Porsches and BMW's. I told him about putting in Dinan for 495 hp and asked which car I should get, rwd or awd. He said, "no question, awd." Told me the biggest problem M5 guys have is getting traction. I'm going with the opinion of a guy I have personally watched smoke GTP cars that raced at Lemans with professional drivers. This discussion about awd vs. rwd is a bunch of boys sticking their dicks out.

Totally agree with the problem of getting traction with the M5. Had a little drag race today and the traction from my xDrive was amazing. There is no wheel slippage or DSC intervention. All the torque goes to the pavement.

Also, found out today that the xDrive tranfer of torque rear to front on rapid 90 degree corners is instantaneous and practically eliminates understeer. Most AWD systems have a fixed F/R torque distribution. The xDrive system is continuously variable. The handling is amazing even with the all season grand touring RFTs. I think I may swap them out for Potenzas and get the Dinan. That will be some vehicle. Almost an M5 with no traction problems. But even more important than the 495 hp at a stop light is the 573 lb ft of torque. I don't think any AMG would beat me in a stop light Grand Pre. :thumbup:

richschneid
10-08-2010, 06:13 PM
Older doctors are so lucky. They have very low student loans (if any) and they make a lot of money in the golden years. They are able to buy big home for less and its worth have risen dramatically. They then have money to buy nice and expensive cars.

For younger doctors, paying back the huge medical student loans is the pain in the butt and we don't think about Porsche 911 that readily.

I don't know how old you are. But I drove a 1978 Honda Civic for the first five years after my fellowship and then upgraded to a Prelude. I didn't get my first Bimmer until I was 45. I lost a bundle on the big house I bought in 1990. And the small house, 2400 sq ft, I have today is worth only about 10% more than when I bought it in 1999. My wife drives an Accord by her own choice. If you want to know what struggle and hard work in medicine are all about send me a private message and I will send you a free copy of my autobiography. Good Grief.

richschneid
10-08-2010, 06:20 PM
Bottom line... bmw is not Porsche or lambo... its our choice of car. If u lime 4 wd just wait dinan said soon you will get ur upgrade. I will stick to rwd bmw as i feel this is the way it was meant to be... maybe i will get a cl63 4matic next lol

Before you make any judgements about the xDrive, I suggest you actually drive it. It is amazing. It might not make as much difference on the 535 but on the 550 it's great. See my post above. BMWs are now getting into the hp and torque ranges where RWD is just not as adequate as it used to be. I have had four previous RWD V8 BMWs so I have a basis of comparison. But the xDrive system is not your father's AWD. I would never go back to RWD. :rofl:

CarBrain
10-08-2010, 06:30 PM
I don't know how old you are. But I drove a 1978 Honda Civic for the first five years after my fellowship and then upgraded to a Prelude. I didn't get my first Bimmer until I was 45. I lost a bundle on the big house I bought in 1990. And the small house, 2400 sq ft, I have today is worth only about 10% more than when I bought it in 1999. My wife drives an Accord by her own choice. If you want to know what struggle and hard work in medicine are all about send me a private message and I will send you a free copy of my autobiography. Good Grief.

I am 41 and I graduated from medical school in 1996.

I guess I was wrong about you. Other older doctors that I know have different story to tell so I guess I made a wrong generalization. Sorry about that.

Munich77
10-08-2010, 06:55 PM
Totally agree with the problem of getting traction with the M5. Had a little drag race today and the traction from my xDrive was amazing. There is no wheel slippage or DSC intervention. All the torque goes to the pavement.

Also, found out today that the xDrive tranfer of torque rear to front on rapid 90 degree corners is instantaneous and practically eliminates understeer. Most AWD systems have a fixed F/R torque distribution. The xDrive system is continuously variable. The handling is amazing even with the all season grand touring RFTs. I think I may swap them out for Potenzas and get the Dinan. That will be some vehicle. Almost an M5 with no traction problems. But even more important than the 495 hp at a stop light is the 573 lb ft of torque. I don't think any AMG would beat me in a stop light Grand Pre. :thumbup:

A modified 550i will be an animal.... especially in AWD. I suspect that the new M5 which will use a different version of the engine will have bigger intercoolers than the 550i. It will not take too long before an enterprising soul puts those into a 550i for even more power. I love AWD and the 550 xi seems like the best of both worlds - performance and all weather traction.

richschneid
10-09-2010, 07:04 AM
Just checked the tirerack. For some reason the Potenza RE050A RFT are not available in 19" sizes. The Pirelli PZero max performance RFTs are available in 19". So might get those to replace the Goodyears. But that won't be until next spring. Will use Bridgestone LM-25 RFT snows this winter. No sense getting the Dinan to use with the snow tires so will probably wait until next spring for that as well.

Oops! Checked the wrong size. Potenzas are available.

hilljf
03-23-2011, 01:46 PM
The specifications for the Dinan upgrade indicate that it will produce about 777nm of Torque. I understood that the ZF transmission in the 550i is rated at 700nm of Torque.

I have the xDrive model and have been considering doing the mod, but am concerned about pushing the transmission beyond its rated levels. At stock the car pushes 600 nm of torque will within the specs of the 8 speed transmission.

I would appreciate any feedback on this question.

John

highyo
03-23-2011, 02:29 PM
The specifications for the Dinan upgrade indicate that it will produce about 777nm of Torque. I understood that the ZF transmission in the 550i is rated at 700nm of Torque.

I have the xDrive model and have been considering doing the mod, but am concerned about pushing the transmission beyond its rated levels. At stock the car pushes 600 nm of torque will within the specs of the 8 speed transmission.

I would appreciate any feedback on this question.

John

it's totally awesome. do it.

dunderhi
03-23-2011, 05:07 PM
The specifications for the Dinan upgrade indicate that it will produce about 777nm of Torque. I understood that the ZF transmission in the 550i is rated at 700nm of Torque.

I have the xDrive model and have been considering doing the mod, but am concerned about pushing the transmission beyond its rated levels. At stock the car pushes 600 nm of torque will within the specs of the 8 speed transmission.

I would appreciate any feedback on this question.

John

My calculator gives me 730nm with Dinan. The ZF 8HP family is rated 300-1000nm depending on the model. I believe it is likely the 550i has the 8HP70 with a 700nm torque limit, but I can't find anything definitive.

hilljf
03-23-2011, 05:59 PM
My point is to better understand how much slack exists in the specs of the ZF transmission or how much overstated the Dinan improvements are.

I like to keep my cars for a long time. If I intended to get rid of the car in two years, no issue.

Any views on how hard the upgrade pushes the physical capacity of the car as delivered?

thanks, John

highyo
03-23-2011, 06:59 PM
My point is to better understand how much slack exists in the specs of the ZF transmission or how much overstated the Dinan improvements are.

I like to keep my cars for a long time. If I intended to get rid of the car in two years, no issue.

Any views on how hard the upgrade pushes the physical capacity of the car as delivered?

thanks, John

valid points all. i did not ask my guy at motor works about the effects on the ZF but i could give you his details and i'm sure he would be glad to walk you through it. or any intelligent and motivated Dinan tuner near you i'm sure can help you out