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View Full Version : Consumer Reports BMW 5 Series (F10) falls short of the "Ultimate Driving Machine"


tim330i
10-19-2010, 04:47 PM
The BMW 5 Series has a luxurious and quiet interior and a very impressive drivetrain. Unfortunately, its handling falls short of BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan.

It seems like BMW has been targeting Mercedes and Lexus with this 5 series and not the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36W93eHCqM4&feature=player_embedded

Read more news about the BMW 5 Series (http://www.bimmerfest.com/tag/5-Series)

jmsent
10-19-2010, 04:57 PM
Interesting. Doesn't seem to agree with other reviewers of the same car that really liked it. I take it this one didn't have SP on it, which would likely have changed the results. And the shuttering part over bumps? Well, welcome to the wonderful world of RFT's

solstice
10-19-2010, 05:00 PM
Insideline has this about their F10 528i long term car after testing it on the track

Handling Comments: Skid pad: More difficult to access off-throttle rotation than 535i, but the effect is minimal in both cars. Not nimble or quick to respond, but entirely controllable. Slalom: Feels fairly soft in rapid transitions -- even in Sport Plus. Is well-mannered, however. Chassis isn't snappy like an Infiniti. BMW is showing a change of direction here.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/10/2011-bmw-528i-track-tested.html

richschneid
10-19-2010, 05:08 PM
I think the handling on my 550i xDrive is superior to that of my '93 740i, my '99 540i sport package, my '00 M5, and my '06 650i sport package. I have almost 200,000 miles on these cars and have driven all the M cars on the track at the BMW facility in South Carolina. I don't think these Consumer's Reports reviewers have any idea what they are talking about. I test drove the 550i RWD very fast and hard on twisty hilly back roads in the hills outside of Pittsburgh. It handled better than my 650i even equipped with only the OE grand touring tires. The xDrive version handles even better than the RWD car.

They also complained about the controls. The controls on the F10 are by far the best of any BMW I have ever owned. They just didn't have the time to actually learn how they work. Once you learn them they are nearly perfect and extremely driver friendly and easy to use.

The same limitations apply to the Car and Driver testers to a lesser extent. Besides, to really understand the type of car BMW makes for enthusiasts one has to test the RWD cars with integral active steering, dynamic handling package, and the sport package. The only thing that might be also needed is to put high performance tires on the car instead of grand touring tires. The xDrive versions like my car are not available with IAS but this is made up for by the instantaneous rear to front torque vectoring that virtually eliminates oversteer in hard driving. This I can tell you from personal experience. :thumbup:

richschneid
10-19-2010, 05:15 PM
Insideline has this about their F10 528i long term car after testing it on the track

Handling Comments: Skid pad: More difficult to access off-throttle rotation than 535i, but the effect is minimal in both cars. Not nimble or quick to respond, but entirely controllable. Slalom: Feels fairly soft in rapid transitions -- even in Sport Plus. Is well-mannered, however. Chassis isn't snappy like an Infiniti. BMW is showing a change of direction here.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/2010/10/2011-bmw-528i-track-tested.html

The test car did not have integral active steering. This will markedly improve the "nimbleness and quickness" of the car in rapid transient repsonse. This is necessary to get if you are an enthusiast. The IAS is an indication of the direction BMW is going for the traditional enthusiast driver. So it is unfair to criticize the company for not doing what it has actually done. The point is that BMW is simultaineously making cars for both the traditional BMW enthusiast AND the traditional Lexus buyer. You just have to buy the car you want. It makes perfect sense not to try to sell a car to a Lexus buyer by making him pay for the neccessary engineering needed to satisfy the traditional BMW buyer.

Jack Stefano
10-19-2010, 05:49 PM
The BMW 5 Series has a luxurious and quiet interior and a very impressive drivetrain. Unfortunately, its handling falls short of BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan.

It seems like BMW has been targeting Mercedes and Lexus with this 5 series and not the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36W93eHCqM4&feature=player_embedded

I've got an '06 550, and the wife drives a '07 Mercedes CLS 550. Huge difference in the cars. They're both exactly what you would expect. We're about to trade the Merc for a 535 and what sold the wife is the updated interior and improved ride (she hates my 550). I guess it's all about what you want. I won't be buying an F10 for myself, but can appreciate the changes made for the wider audience. I'll probably go with a 335 or M3 next time around just for the BMW experience.

kocsis
10-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Rich, you're truly an apologist for BMW. Every single expert reviewer and amateur enthusiast says the same thing - the car drives like a Lexus, abandoning its enthusiast heritage. I am two weeks away from my own 550ix, so I will see for myself. But you can't just rationalize every reviewer's criticisms, which are consistent and unanimous.

sambb
10-19-2010, 06:40 PM
Have driven several new F10s and one for a few hundred miles. COnsumer reports AND car and driver both find it disappointing for the enthusiast. But for the buick crowd, it is a great car. I guess it depends what one wants. Check out the steering thread for one look at this car. My family member who owns the f10 calls it the "ultimate lexus". That isn't a bad thing, it is just different than the historical sports sedan the car once was. I bet it will sell in throngs --- to the new target audience. If you are an enthusiast, I hope you have a short lease.

Financeman
10-19-2010, 06:40 PM
Having enjoyed a long test drive in a base model 535i....I would describe the overall driving experience as unexpectedly similiar to my company's 09 ES 350.... The model I drove felt less connected than earlier model 5 series I've driven. Nice car...but more "Lexus" like than I expected. I tend to agree with others on the board...the reviewer's difficulty using the various controls would be quickly overcome with familiarity.

trekman
10-19-2010, 06:49 PM
Unfortunately it seems to me all the reviewers read the first review and just parroted the good and bad. Consumer reports has lost their way in the modern world, post Nixon era. I would say they should just stick to taking surveys, but I don't really trust those either. Numb on center steering? Mine goes straight, follows the slant of the road like it should, turns the car with the smallest input possible.

bm323
10-19-2010, 06:53 PM
This is a fine example of parroting and knowing nuts about what's in the bandwagon. I've pointed this review out previously, his views are unique, not consistent with even the critics when the details are examined.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5540357&postcount=80

wessew
10-19-2010, 06:55 PM
Well, I tend to agree with Rich, and I am not an apologist for BMW. I used to drive BMW's, including a 2000 M-5 and several 5 series before that. Then, I drifted away for a few years to Lexus and Acura, due primarily to reliability issues specific to my vehicles. I still own an X3, and I have on order a 550i with all of the performance upgrades. The 550i is replacing a Lexus GS460 and I have to tell you, that after very extensive driving tests (four in all), we found the 550i to be a far better sports machine than the Lexus while at least equaling it in terms of highway cruise comfort. We tried the Infiniti, Mercedes, Lexus and Jaguar cars before deciding. Each competitor car had fairly significant issues which I could go into but won't here. The bottom line is that I think the 550i properly optioned really is the best of all worlds in terms of sport handling and performance combined with technology, comfort, and all around flexibility. This is true until the next M-5 shows up. Perhaps the only criticism I would level would be that it used to be that BMW set up the cars so that they had that near magical balance without needing to order all of the available options packages. Now, it seems that to get the car you really want, you have to option it up to the hilt. That, in turn, costs a mint. You get there in the end, but at a cost much higher than the base price.

bulwinkl24
10-19-2010, 07:15 PM
I've seen a couple of unflattering reviews of the new F10 so far. Not that those articles should be taken as gospel but I think it's ridiculous to discount those by saying that they "parrot" one another. Where is the dismissing of the critics when BMW comes out of top in virtually every other comparo article in R&T, C&D, and MT?

Let's call a spade a spade. Some here who claim to be driving enthusiasts don't know how to drive with a third pedal and couldn't change a flat tire if their lives depended on it. So am I supposed to take your word over journalists who drive for a living? Ya right.....:rolleyes:

richschneid
10-19-2010, 07:17 PM
Rich, you're truly an apologist for BMW. Every single expert reviewer and amateur enthusiast says the same thing - the car drives like a Lexus, abandoning its enthusiast heritage. I am two weeks away from my own 550ix, so I will see for myself. But you can't just rationalize every reviewer's criticisms, which are consistent and unanimous.

Look, that is not a logical argument. If you have a disagreement with my opinion that is fine. Just state your reasoning and I will either agree with you or tell you why I disagree with you. I have every right to disagree with any reviewer so long as I have reason to. None of these reviewers in C&D or Consumer's Reports or Winding Road have made any sense becaust they are not testing the proper car.

Did you get DHP, sport package, and the sport transmission? If so, then we have the same car and you and I can compare our opinions. If not, then we are talking about apples and oranges. These reviewers are making generalizations about BMW based upon one car that is not fully equipped for the enthusiast. The reviewers are severely limited in their opinions because in the case of C&D and Winding Road they are stuck with the one car given to them to review. In the case of Consumer's Reports they buy the car from a dealer. They do not buy a fully equipped enthusiast's car and then make generalizations which by their very nature cannot be accurate.

I am not making a "rationalization" I am making a logical analysis based upon the information at hand. Of course, the base car drives "like a Lexus", that's what it's supposed to do. But to say that BMW does not also make a car that drives like a BMW is completely and totally dishonest and misleading. These guys have to write something so rather than admit their limitations they make absurd generalizations which are based on extremely limited information at best, and downright dishonesty at worst. So, someone has to stand up and give some counterbalance to their nonsense. Sorry, if you don't agree with me. But no one here has driven these cars fully equipped, not the magazine reviewers or anyone on this website. Period. :thumbup:

sambb
10-19-2010, 07:23 PM
Actually, I HAVE driven the car fully equipped and I think it definitely drives like a Buick more than a lexus. If you've driven the Lucerne or Regal, it is fairly similar. Not exact, but I think closer. There is nothing wrong with that if that is what you like. To each his/her own.
I am disappointed with the departure from BMW's core feel, which Car and Driver and Consumer Reports have stated many times.

REad these reviews:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q3/2011_bmw_550i_automatic_and_manual-short_take_road_test

AND

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_bmw_528i-short_take_road_test

When car and driver calls a BMW "spooky" you really have to think twice, unless you are looking for a different target.

Now, importantly I am not saying that the current BMW is a worse car - it is just different. Some people want a lexus/buick/F10 and others like a "sports" feel. I dont know why that causes angst on either side.

richschneid
10-19-2010, 07:35 PM
Well, I tend to agree with Rich, and I am not an apologist for BMW. I used to drive BMW's, including a 2000 M-5 and several 5 series before that. Then, I drifted away for a few years to Lexus and Acura, due primarily to reliability issues specific to my vehicles. I still own an X3, and I have on order a 550i with all of the performance upgrades. The 550i is replacing a Lexus GS460 and I have to tell you, that after very extensive driving tests (four in all), we found the 550i to be a far better sports machine than the Lexus while at least equaling it in terms of highway cruise comfort. We tried the Infiniti, Mercedes, Lexus and Jaguar cars before deciding. Each competitor car had fairly significant issues which I could go into but won't here. The bottom line is that I think the 550i properly optioned really is the best of all worlds in terms of sport handling and performance combined with technology, comfort, and all around flexibility. This is true until the next M-5 shows up. Perhaps the only criticism I would level would be that it used to be that BMW set up the cars so that they had that near magical balance without needing to order all of the available options packages. Now, it seems that to get the car you really want, you have to option it up to the hilt. That, in turn, costs a mint. You get there in the end, but at a cost much higher than the base price.

Thanks for the agreement. I think I agree with you that to get a properly set up F10 you must option it out for about an additional $10,000 to get the IAS, the DHP, the sport transmission, and maybe 2 grand for proper tires. So if you want a Lexus you pay less. If you want a BMW you have to pay more. Go get what you pay for. What's so irrational about that. That's all I have been saying here for about two months.

As one guy said, his wife wants the base car because she like the Lexus type car. So her car costs around $55,000 with the turbo 6 cylinder. His BMW with the 6 is around $65,000. If he wants the 8 cylinder is around $75,000 or 80. Why is everybody complaining about this? My car listed for $85,000 and I think it's an absolute steal at that price. Nothing Lexus, MB, or Audi makes even comes close at that price. I think the performance is just a tad below the Panamera 4S at around $110,000, the Maser QP at $130,000 and the Aston Martin.

A BMW cost more than a Lexus. Period. All these critics seem to want is to get a BMW for the price of a Lexus. That's what I consider to be truly absurd. :)

richschneid
10-19-2010, 07:37 PM
Actually, I HAVE driven the car fully equipped and I think it definitely drives like a Buick more than a lexus. If you've driven the Lucerne or Regal, it is fairly similar. Not exact, but I think closer. There is nothing wrong with that if that is what you like. To each his/her own.
I am disappointed with the departure from BMW's core feel, which Car and Driver and Consumer Reports have stated many times.

REad these reviews:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q3/2011_bmw_550i_automatic_and_manual-short_take_road_test

AND

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_bmw_528i-short_take_road_test

When car and driver calls a BMW "spooky" you really have to think twice, unless you are looking for a different target.

Now, importantly I am not saying that the current BMW is a worse car - it is just different. Some people want a lexus/buick/F10 and others like a "sports" feel. I dont know why that causes angst on either side.

You have driven a car with IAS, really. You are the only one here or in any of the magazines. C&D test car did NOT have IAS. So, why should I believe anything else you say. Once you get the car and own it then you will have a basis of comparison. My car is definitely not "Spooky". It is amazing.

sambb
10-19-2010, 07:48 PM
I am glad it is amazing! You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel! I have no problem with it! I find the car lacking in enthusiast feel. But your opinion is valuable t you. But I would never buy that type of car at this point, I am more of an enthusiast. Best of luck with your car however!

Newmanium
10-19-2010, 07:48 PM
Look, that is not a logical argument. If you have a disagreement with my opinion that is fine. Just state your reasoning and I will either agree with you or tell you why I disagree with you. I have every right to disagree with any reviewer so long as I have reason to. None of these reviewers in C&D or Consumer's Reports or Winding Road have made any sense becaust they are not testing the proper car.

Did you get DHP, sport package, and the sport transmission? If so, then we have the same car and you and I can compare our opinions. If not, then we are talking about apples and oranges. These reviewers are making generalizations about BMW based upon one car that is not fully equipped for the enthusiast. The reviewers are severely limited in their opinions because in the case of C&D and Winding Road they are stuck with the one car given to them to review. In the case of Consumer's Reports they buy the car from a dealer. They do not buy a fully equipped enthusiast's car and then make generalizations which by their very nature cannot be accurate.

I am not making a "rationalization" I am making a logical analysis based upon the information at hand. Of course, the base car drives "like a Lexus", that's what it's supposed to do. But to say that BMW does not also make a car that drives like a BMW is completely and totally dishonest and misleading. These guys have to write something so rather than admit their limitations they make absurd generalizations which are based on extremely limited information at best, and downright dishonesty at worst. So, someone has to stand up and give some counterbalance to their nonsense. Sorry, if you don't agree with me. But no one here has driven these cars fully equipped, not the magazine reviewers or anyone on this website. Period. :thumbup:

That's a convenient excuse - they're reviewing a car with the options most people will end up buying. In the past, this never moved a BMW into Lexus-land, no base BMW has ever driven like a Lexus (or been supposed to!). And the numb steering feel hasn't been fixed by any add-on package according to any independent reviewer (or anybody unbiased on these boards). I test drove the 550i with IAS and full suspension packages, and the steering was extremely numb compared to my base, non-sport, 530i.

Nitpick the review all you want, they're echoing what a lot of enthusiasts on here have been saying.

sambb
10-19-2010, 07:51 PM
In my experience of driving the f10 is that it is a cruiser. Nice for the back seat. It is comfortable, and feels large. Maybe that is the 7 influence. It is nice to ride in and read a book from the back, or just relax. I think that it will be popular for that type of job.

As someone who enjoys driving the car,I would hope that BMW takes these reviews seriously. They have changed cars in the past for feedback. I bet that they will change this one. When consumer reports even calls them out, then it will be hard for them to respond. Here's to the 2012 version!

sambb
10-19-2010, 07:52 PM
That's a convenient excuse - they're reviewing a car with the options most people will end up buying. In the past, this never moved a BMW into Lexus-land, no base BMW has ever driven like a Lexus (or been supposed to!). And the numb steering feel hasn't been fixed by any add-on package according to any independent reviewer (or anybody unbiased on these boards). I test drove the 550i with IAS and full suspension packages, and the steering was extremely numb compared to my base, non-sport, 530i.

Nitpick the review all you want, they're echoing what a lot of enthusiasts on here have been saying.

VERY well said. Bravo.

Kamdog
10-19-2010, 08:03 PM
My only experience with the F10 was the comparo invitation. I drove the new 535 done up minimally, and the 550 with all the goodies. I felt the 535 was pretty Lexus-like, with better power and an interior more to my taste, but not particularly fun to drive. The loaded 550 was head and shoulders above that, and had more seat-of-the-pants power, true, but it also handled like a completely different car.

When I got back in my E60, I ran the exact same course. My E60 is not sport packaged at all, yet it felt that it had much more power than F10 535, and the difference in handling was like the difference between my 535 and a 335; it was just a different natured car altogether.

kocsis
10-19-2010, 08:10 PM
I have not yet driven the same car that Rich has....a 550 ix with all the performance/sport options. I have one coming with the Msport package, sport transmission, etc. That's the same as Rich's, I believe. As soon as I have a chance to drive it properly (once the brake-in period is over), I will post a review. But no one can dismiss the experts (C&D, etc) who are normally total BMW fans. They are truly capable of reviewing cars objectively, and while they may not "get" the controls, as those take some time to learn, they can certainly "get" the driveability - they do that day in and day out, and they do it with all the new cars they drive.

When I considered selling my 993 and buying the 997, I heard all of the criticisms of the "cushy" new Porsche 997 vs. 993. But I started to drive the 997 with an open mind. The 997 drives entirely differently, but it's still a driver's car. Fantastic engine and suspension, amazing steering, like you're on a rail. More comfortable and larger than the 993, little more planted, less "squirrely". A true improvement (though some consider me a traitor, abandoning the last air cooled Porsche). If the F10 is a comparable improvement/ compromise over the M5 (yes, I am aware of the apple-to-apple comparison flaw), or maybe the "straight" E39, I will be thrilled, even if the performance is enhanced by electronic gismos.

pharding
10-19-2010, 08:28 PM
BMW did a great job with the F10 except for the lack of SPORTS. Over than that gross oversight it is a fine car. Unfortunately it has always been a SPORTS Sedan. Therefore when BMW dumbs down the SPORTS Sedan character of the F10, it is rather unexpected and disappointing to the BMW faithful and auto journalists. Even if BMW made some missteps on a prior model, you could always count on the car as being fun to drive. That is why you buy a BMW. They are fun to drive. Hopefully BMW is busily working at damage control and will make the necessary adjustments sooner rather than later on the F10.

AzNMpower32
10-19-2010, 08:38 PM
If you want a sporty sedan, BMW has your answer: the 3er.

Every generation of BMWs tends to morph into the role of the larger model range. To say the current 3er is light, agile, and pure driving joy like E36 or E30 would be silly. Similarly, to expect the F10 to react like an E39 would be aiming at the wrong target.

bm323
10-19-2010, 08:53 PM
Actually, I HAVE driven the car fully equipped and I think it definitely drives like a Buick more than a lexus. If you've driven the Lucerne or Regal, it is fairly similar. Not exact, but I think closer. There is nothing wrong with that if that is what you like. To each his/her own.
I am disappointed with the departure from BMW's core feel, which Car and Driver and Consumer Reports have stated many times.

REad these reviews:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q3/2011_bmw_550i_automatic_and_manual-short_take_road_test

AND

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q4/2011_bmw_528i-short_take_road_test

When car and driver calls a BMW "spooky" you really have to think twice, unless you are looking for a different target.

Now, importantly I am not saying that the current BMW is a worse car - it is just different. Some people want a lexus/buick/F10 and others like a "sports" feel. I dont know why that causes angst on either side.
Are we going to repeat ourselves from 1 thread to another thread? Or how about throwing in a further negative review, and I respond with a positive one? :) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article7125818.ece

Since you say you are the enthusiast and regard the F10 as a Buick, how is the 2007-2008 7 series a car for the enthusiast but not the F10?

Or how about something more constructive, some of you guys letting me know which car is the king in its class, since the F10 is allegedly not so? :)

momo_oo[][]oo
10-19-2010, 10:06 PM
I haven't drove one, but I'm sure his review has way too much exaggeration that the 5 is not what it used to be.

aleckg
10-19-2010, 11:49 PM
BTW, what about steering in the current 7 series? I haven't read in reviews about problems with their steering. Do they also have "numb" feeling, but it's accepted for that class, or the steering in 7 series is currently better than in 5 series (taking into account that 7s are bigger)? As I understand, 7 series still have hydraulic steering, unlike non x-drive F10s.
Also, is there consensus about steering in x-drive vs non x-drive F10s? Again, one is hydraulic and the other one is electric.

richschneid
10-20-2010, 06:32 AM
I am glad it is amazing! You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel! I have no problem with it! I find the car lacking in enthusiast feel. But your opinion is valuable t you. But I would never buy that type of car at this point, I am more of an enthusiast. Best of luck with your car however!

When I said amazing I was referring to the handling in high speed maneuvers. It may feel like a Lexus or a Buick, but it drives and handles better than my 650i or E39 M5. It feels different, but it actually handles better. The rear drive versions will handle better because of the availability of four wheel steering, and the xDrive versions will handle better because the instantaneous torque vectoring rear to front in high speed maneuvers. To me this is the essence of enthusiastic driving, not the feel. To me performance is the important part of enthusiastic driving, feel is a secondary consideration.

But please don't accuse me of "You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel!" If that were true why would I have owned an E39 M5, 540i sport, and 650i sport. In 1992 I test drove back to back the Lexus LS 400 and the new BMW 740i. There was no comparison. I even equipped my new 740 with the EDC so I could have the option of comfort or sport dampers. The first time I drove a car on a racetrack was at Bridgehampton in 1974. I even won a couple of trophies in road rally competitions as a young man. I have been an "enthusiast" since I got my license in 1964, and have read every issue of R&T and C&D since then. I have driven all the M cars on the track at the BMW facility in South Carolina. So, please don't insult me personally by saying "You are clearly the type that likes the lexus/buick feel!"

If you think that any Lexus or Buick can keep up on the road or the track with a fully equipped 550i with either xDrive or IAS, I think you are sadly mistaken. I have owned an E39 M5 and can tell you the properly equipped 550i outperforms the M5, and to me it doesn't matter if you think it feels like a Buick or Lexus. What matters to me is performance.

As I have said many times before, the only real criticism of the 550i is the absence of the option of getting real high performance summer tires such as the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A RFTs that were OE on my 650i sport. But this is not the car's fault and is easily fixed with an additional expenditure of less than $2000. I am even giving strong consideration to spending $5000 to both change the tires and add the Dinan software to the car. I guess you might think that 495hp and 573 lb ft of torque is strictly for the type of guy who likes the the "lexus/buick feel". Good Grief! :thumbup:

richschneid
10-20-2010, 06:39 AM
That's a convenient excuse - they're reviewing a car with the options most people will end up buying. In the past, this never moved a BMW into Lexus-land, no base BMW has ever driven like a Lexus (or been supposed to!). And the numb steering feel hasn't been fixed by any add-on package according to any independent reviewer (or anybody unbiased on these boards). I test drove the 550i with IAS and full suspension packages, and the steering was extremely numb compared to my base, non-sport, 530i.

Nitpick the review all you want, they're echoing what a lot of enthusiasts on here have been saying.

Well it seems the only thing we disagree about is whether or not the steering is "numb". This is a completely subjective assessment. I don't think it's so "numb" it just has a lighter feel. I think it is very responsive and accurate, and it has adequate "feedback" for my taste in very hard driving. But this is purely subjective. I think the only thing my car needs is max performance summer tires instead of grand touring tires. This can be easily fixed.

pharding
10-20-2010, 06:40 AM
The F10 is over reliant on electronics for suspension and steering. Plus they are trying to be too broad and not decisive about what the F10 is all about. They are trying to do all things well. As a direct result everything is compromised in terms of luxury and sport. They rely on electronic doo dads to do this amd it does not work. Plus throw in good old fashioned German determination and stubbornness and the 5 Series as we know it is seriously compromised.

kocsis
10-20-2010, 06:45 AM
I have this simple minded view of the modern consumer world. Everything can be split into two categories: "experience" or "commodity". For example, an off-the-rack suit from Target is "commodity" where all that matters is price and reasonable performance. An Armani suit is "experience" because there is more to it than the mere physical clothing: it's the special feeling of being fitted, the nicer feeling material, the slightly more tailored look and, yes, the bragging rights of the brand.
Similarly with cars. You can buy a Toyota for $17k and it gets you reliably where you want to go. But if you seek an experience, you will buy a BMW or Mercedes or Lexus, whatever. Each has its own market. But for a car to be successful, it has to cater to a particular market seeking a particular experience. So, if BMW is the "ultimate driving machine", that embodies the experience. If different aspects of that experience no longer fit coherently with one another - the car performs well objectively, but doesn't feel right, which is, in my mind, the core of the criticism - then the "BMW experience" is no longer there. And I don't think you can virtually create that experience by push buttons.
Perhaps this is why BMW changed its slogan - they are no longer selling the "driving machine" experience. They are selling the "joy" experience. So the enthusiasts who are still after the "driving machine" experience must look elsewhere.

richschneid
10-20-2010, 06:55 AM
The F10 is over reliant on electronics for suspension and steering. Plus they are trying to be too broad and not decisive about what the F10 is all about. They are trying to do all things well. As a direct result everything is compromised in terms of luxury and sport. They rely on electronic doo dads to do this amd it does not work. Plus throw in good old fashioned German determination and stubbornness and the 5 Series as we know it is seriously compromised.

As we have discussed before, the issue may be one of subjective sportiness versus objective performance. It is the computer controls that make the F10 perform better than the "5 series as we know it". To me having the luxury and refinement of a Lexus LS 460 combined with the performance of an E39 M5 is very, very sweet indeed. Add in the winter capabilities of an SUV and you have what I consider to be an engineering miracle. It's just different strokes for different folks, I guess. :thumbup:

pharding
10-20-2010, 07:38 AM
BMW has consistently marketed the subjective. Look at their current Joy campaign. That is not about a bunch of computer instruments and their readings. I care nothing about the luxury and refinement of a Lexus. If I wanted that I would have bought a Lexus, which I would never do. If I wanted a 4 wheel drive engineering miracle I would have bought an Audi. I want what the 5 Series has always been until now, a BMW Sports Sedan. I wanted a Sports Package with true sports components, not a sport aesthetic package. The sport part of the F10 is a major disappointment. Unfortunately that is why I and other enthusiasts have purchased BMW's in the past. Certainly I am not the only person raising these questions about the F10. Our concerns, regardless of what instruments show, are quite real. Hopefully BMW will fix their blunders as they have in the past. Immediate cheap fixes would be to offer Sport Springs to the purchasers of the F10 with free installation and adjust the software for the suspension and steering.

Whatevever the fix is, it should be retoactive and a retrofit for those of us BMW faithful that trusted that BMW would deliver a a true Sorts Sedan in the F10.

raleedy
10-20-2010, 08:22 AM
BMW has consistently marketed the subjective. Look at their current Joy campaign. That is not about a bunch of computer instruments and their readings. I care nothing about the luxury and refinement of a Lexus. If I wanted that I would have bought a Lexus, which I would never do. If I wanted a 4 wheel drive engineering miracle I would have bought an Audi. I want what the 5 Series has always been until now, a BMW Sports Sedan. I wanted a Sports Package with true sports components, not a sport aesthetic package. The sport part of the F10 is a major disappointment. Unfortunately that is why I and other enthusiasts have purchased BMW's in the past. Certainly I am not the only person raising these questions about the F10. Our concerns, regardless of what instruments show, are quite real. Hopefully BMW will fix their blunders as they have in the past. Immediate cheap fixes would be to offer Sport Springs to the purchasers of the F10 with free installation and adjust the software for the suspension and steering.

Whatevever the fix is, it should be retoactive and a retrofit for those of us BMW faithful that trusted that BMW would deliver a a true Sorts Sedan in the F10.

You'll have to wait for the new 3 series (F30). It's more likely to be the car that inherits the previous 5 series DNA. Meanwhile, everyone who laments the loss of the ultimate driving machine with the discontinuation of the E60 should take note of the fact that the F10, for all of its alleged shortcomings, has no real competition in the luxury sports niche.

bikerboy
10-20-2010, 09:13 AM
To give the devil it's do, I just spent a long evening of fairly high speed freeway driving on my new 550ix Sport. The steering certainly tightened up. Thankfully. Very pleased with that turn of events. However, I, like most people on this board, do most of my driving around town. THAT is when the steering problem shows itself for what it is. Numb. Every time I pull out of my garage, and down my driveway, I say "****" I don't like this. Hopefully there can be some type of electronic fix for this electronic steering. It's going to drive me crazy. I know I'll never get used to it. I know what the steering of a BMW is supposed to feel like (like knowing pornography when I see it, as a famous Supreme Ct. Justice once said) and this is not it.

richschneid
10-20-2010, 09:42 AM
To give the devil it's do, I just spent a long evening of fairly high speed freeway driving on my new 550ix Sport. The steering certainly tightened up. Thankfully. Very pleased with that turn of events. However, I, like most people on this board, do most of my driving around town. THAT is when the steering problem shows itself for what it is. Numb. Every time I pull out of my garage, and down my driveway, I say "****" I don't like this. Hopefully there can be some type of electronic fix for this electronic steering. It's going to drive me crazy. I know I'll never get used to it. I know what the steering of a BMW is supposed to feel like (like knowing pornography when I see it, as a famous Supreme Ct. Justice once said) and this is not it.

Funny, every time I drive my car around town and in parking lots I say to myself, "Boy do I like this steering at low speeds". I also like the way it tightens up on the interstate as I do a fair amount of intercity driving.

BTW, you should know that your 550i xDrive does NOT have electric steering assist. All the xDrive cars have hydralic steering assist. :thumbup:

markl53
10-20-2010, 10:08 AM
To give the devil it's do, I just spent a long evening of fairly high speed freeway driving on my new 550ix Sport. The steering certainly tightened up. Thankfully.

Many of us have stated that the steering tightens up "at speed". Glad to know that you have now experienced that.


Very pleased with that turn of events. However, I, like most people on this board, do most of my driving around town. THAT is when the steering problem shows itself for what it is. Numb. Every time I pull out of my garage, and down my driveway, I say "****" I don't like this.

Wait about another week. You will start liking it, IMO. You don't need heavy steering at 20 mph, IMO. What BMW were you driving before? My '08 335i steering wasn't all that heavy to begin with.

Hopefully there can be some type of electronic fix for this electronic steering.

It's not "electronic" steering. There is an electric motor that supplies the assist in lieu of a hydraulic pump. This is not a drive-by-wire system (which to me is implied with the term "electronic").

markl53
10-20-2010, 10:12 AM
Funny, every time I drive my car around town and in parking lots I say to myself, "Boy do I like this steering at low speeds". I also like the way it tightens up on the interstate as I do a fair amount of intercity driving.

+1

BTW, you should know that your 550i xDrive does NOT have electric steering assist. All the xDrive cars have hydralic steering assist. :thumbup:

(I don't think he has an xDrive)

richschneid
10-20-2010, 10:20 AM
+1



(I don't think he has an xDrive)

He wrote: "on my new 550ix Sport". But I just noticed that he lists his car as a 550i, not an ix, even though he did post "550ix".

solstice
10-20-2010, 11:01 AM
On my way to work today in my E60 535xi loaner I thought about something that made me more pessimistic about the likelyhood of "fixing" the F10. The loaner has basic setup, i.e no ars or sports tuned suspension and rides on relatively narrow all season rubber, however it is fun to drive. It seems that the E60 has sports sedan carved into it's dna and you can't hide it even with lesser components. I find myself taking any opportunity to link "fast" turns (within the speed limit of course ) with a grin on my face. The F10 on the other hand seems to have cruiser in it's dna and not even "sports" components can hide it. Perhaps a full re-design is needed to bring the sports sedan funfer back. Hopefully though bmw will bring out it's magic wand and show me wrong otherwise i fear that the new M5 will be a Bill Gates version of an american muscle car...

BravoMikeWiskey
10-20-2010, 11:42 AM
The review seems to be right on the money. I test drove the 550i Sport during the Ultimate Drive in June and the car had a lot of motor but was very 'blah' drive-wise. I remember thinking to myself that the car was a very comfortable cruiser but not a very sporty one. A few months later, I had a chance to drive a 528i Sport from Munich to Monaco to Frankfurt and thought the same thing: plenty of motor, but not much in a way of sportiness. Seems like a new direction for BMW. :dunno:

sambb
10-20-2010, 12:37 PM
The review seems to be right on the money. I test drove the 550i Sport during the Ultimate Drive in June and the car had a lot of motor but was very 'blah' drive-wise. I remember thinking to myself that the car was a very comfortable cruiser but not a very sporty one. A few months later, I had a chance to drive a 528i Sport from Munich to Monaco to Frankfurt and thought the same thing: plenty of motor, but not much in a way of sportiness. Seems like a new direction for BMW. :dunno:

Yep, increasingly, this is the consensus...
But it will still sell in high numbers, but probably not to the BMW faithful.

jmr99vet
10-20-2010, 01:11 PM
Have had my 535 for 2 months. After reading some of the posts above, I am not sure I would have liked the "old" version. I love the car. Just proves, everyone has an opion of what a car should feel like.

Quick11
10-20-2010, 03:04 PM
I recently traded my 2009 Z06 3LZ for a 535I with Sport Package etc. I tracked my Z06 on many occasions including a dozen trips to VIR and other road courses, a few to Rockingham 1/4, Piedmont 1/8, and Charlotte Motor Speedway. I've also been to Spring Mountain (Corvette mecca) a couple of times and the BMW Advanced Driving School, These experiences don't make me an expert; however, they do relate to the fact that I've driven cars very fast and around a whole lot of corners.

I traded because I added to my family and the Z06 just wasn't practical anymore; however, I'm very pleased with the 535I and during a recent mountain trip I found that although it obviously wasn't a Z06, it can be driven with serious intensity and provide loads of fun. Of course, the added luxious interior, comfort and back seat are greatly appreciated.

So all you entusiasts, which I must assume have far more experience than me...just enjoy the car you have and learn to adjust for the lack of various handling inequities. I have.

Keep the rubber down...

jsf1993
10-20-2010, 04:42 PM
Folks: The new F10 is a great car. Is it as much fun to drive as my 2008 535xi? No. But, is my new 2011 535xi fun to drive? YES! I spent 6 days with it very recently thanks to European Delivery and LOVED the car. As I noted in other posts, my car has the sports package, sports transmission and dynamic handling package. Equipped with those packages, it handled extremely well and takes corners and curves better than my present 2008 535xi.

I know that everyone has his/her own tastes and preferences when it comes to styling. But, I think that the new model is hands-down better looking than the one it replaced. In my opinion, the new styling is gorgeous, inside and out.

Has the personality of the car changed? Yes. It is much more luxurious and feels bigger than the model it replaced. I've owned every 5 series BMW's iteration since 1986 and each succeeding iteration was more refined and luxurious (and probably bigger) than the one it replaced. As I moved from one iteration to the next and newer one, there were always some elements of the prior model that I liked more INITIALLY over similar elements in the newer model. But, with time, I came to appreciate the overall improvement in the newer model as compared to the one it replaced.

This model change reminds me of the change from the E28 to the E34. Those 2 models were vastly different and the E34 was MUCH more refined than the E28 (and, yes, less sporty than the E28). But, most BMW enthusiasts now agree that the E34 (like the E39 that followed it) was a classic and represented a major leap forward over the E28. Most of us know all too well that the E60 was not well received by many BMW E39 owners when it first came onto the scene. While much of the controversy over the E60 was over its "unique" styling and electronics, many thought that it too was less "sporty" than the E39. (Not only did the E60 feel "bigger" than the E39, but BMW also eliminated the driver's cockpit in the design and introduced the i-Drive.) Keep that in mind when you judge the new F10. Once again, it rides differently than the model it replaced. But, I think that the F10 is destined to be recognized as a classic 5 series in the future, a status that the E60 never achieved.

markl53
10-20-2010, 06:14 PM
Folks: The new F10 is a great car. Is it as much fun to drive as my 2008 535xi? No. But, is my new 2011 535xi fun to drive? YES! I spent 6 days with it very recently thanks to European Delivery and LOVED the car. As I noted in other posts, my car has the sports package, sports transmission and dynamic handling package. Equipped with those packages, it handled extremely well and takes corners and curves better than my present 2008 535xi.

I know that everyone has his/her own tastes and preferences when it comes to styling. But, I think that the new model is hands-down better looking than the one it replaced. In my opinion, the new styling is gorgeous, inside and out.

Has the personality of the car changed? Yes. It is much more luxurious and feels bigger than the model it replaced. I've owned every 5 series BMW's iteration since 1986 and each succeeding iteration was more refined and luxurious (and probably bigger) than the one it replaced. As I moved from one iteration to the next and newer one, there were always some elements of the prior model that I liked more INITIALLY over similar elements in the newer model. But, with time, I came to appreciate the overall improvement in the newer model as compared to the one it replaced.

This model change reminds me of the change from the E28 to the E34. Those 2 models were vastly different and the E34 was MUCH more refined than the E28 (and, yes, less sporty than the E28). But, most BMW enthusiasts now agree that the E34 (like the E39 that followed it) was a classic and represented a major leap forward over the E28. Most of us know all too well that the E60 was not well received by many BMW E39 owners when it first came onto the scene. While much of the controversy over the E60 was over its "unique" styling and electronics, many thought that it too was less "sporty" than the E39. (Not only did the E60 feel "bigger" than the E39, but BMW also eliminated the driver's cockpit in the design and introduced the i-Drive.) Keep that in mind when you judge the new F10. Once again, it rides differently than the model it replaced. But, I think that the F10 is destined to be recognized as a classic 5 series in the future, a status that the E60 never achieved.

Well stated, IMO. Unfortunately, the nay-sayers here (and I'm not one of them) care nothing about whether the car actually performs better than previous models, they only care about the C&D statement regarding "numb steering". I'm approaching my 1200 mile break in and I've been driving a bit more aggressively -- my non-sport 535i is a blast. It's as nimble as my '08 335i, steering is spot on and the smooth power delivery of the 8-spd AT is phenomenal, IMO (coming from a 6MT).

jsf1993
10-20-2010, 06:41 PM
Many of them would never have purchased an E60 if they read the magazine reviews of that model over the years. The toughest adjustment I ever experienced as a 5 series owner was moving from an E39 (which I LOVED) to the E60 (which I grew to love over time).

Detour28
10-20-2010, 08:11 PM
http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-series/2011/2011-bmw-535i-first-drive.html

pharding
10-21-2010, 07:07 AM
Many of them would never have purchased an E60 if they read the magazine reviews of that model over the years. The toughest adjustment I ever experienced as a 5 series owner was moving from an E39 (which I LOVED) to the E60 (which I grew to love over time).
The E60 was a very innovative body style that was widely emulated. The car drove and handled fantastic. The E60 was one of those innovative rare cars that I would categorize as great. I believe that the F10, which was totally new from the ground up and cloaked in a very conservative design, will have steering and suspension "improvements" in the future. Hopefully BMW will do so on a rolling basis starting with software modifications to better dial in suspension and steering for enhanced sport performance and feel.

jsf1993
10-21-2010, 07:42 AM
At the time the E60 was introduced, most E39 owners were convinced that BMW took a MAJOR step backwards. I suspect that many still feel that way today. I detested the changes so much that I went from my E39 to a MB E-500 for 3 years. (God, how I was disappointed with that MB.). But, I needed the MB "experience" to get to the point that I could accept the E60. No question that the E60 drove much better than the MB. But, I never felt the same "connection" with my E60 as I did with my E39. I learned to love the E60 over time and realized that no other car in its price range could compete. That holds true once again with the new F10 (except that I don't need time to learn to love the new model).

Many Porsche 911 owners lament the changes made to newer models that have impacted the personality of that car, as well. Each succeeding generation has become more refined and luxurious than the prior iteration. This has resulted in some trade-offs. We're experiencing the same thing with the 5 series evolution.

carnuts3
10-21-2010, 09:56 AM
After driving six BMW's over the past 14 odd yrs, I can honestly say that my decision (disappointing as it was) not to buy the F10 was because it just didn't feel like a BMW. for the reasons already stated The 'wow' factor was conspicuously absent. Not so with my previous bimmers. They all had that DNA that made the driving experience feel special and uniquely BMW. I didn't have to add $10,000 in options or drive 100 mph on a test track to satisfy my expectations of what makes a BMW a BMW. All I had to do is roll out of my dealers' driveway and drive a couple of blocks on the local streets - and instantly the "wow', got to have it factor hit me... Not so with the F10. That's just me.

markl53
10-21-2010, 10:55 AM
After driving six BMW's over the past 14 odd yrs, I can honestly say that my decision (disappointing as it was) not to buy the F10 was because it just didn't feel like a BMW. for the reasons already stated The 'wow' factor was conspicuously absent. Not so with my previous bimmers. They all had that DNA that made the driving experience feel special and uniquely BMW. I didn't have to add $10,000 in options or drive 100 mph on a test track to satisfy my expectations of what makes a BMW a BMW. All I had to do is roll out of my dealers' driveway and drive a couple of blocks on the local streets - and instantly the "wow', got to have it factor hit me... Not so with the F10. That's just me.

So interesting -- we must be in totally different places in what we're looking for. I had 2 previous BMW's, an '05 330i 6MT (non sport) and '08 335i 6MT (non sport). I reached a point where I could "move up", and thought I wanted an E Class. Drove that and was not overwhelmed by the power and other factors. Went to my BMW dealer, hopped in a 535i. As soon as I pulled out of the dealer's driveway, made a left turn onto the highway..... "WOW, this is it", auto transmission and all. I now have my very own F10 535i non sport in my garage :) and I'm quite happy with it. Feels like a BMW and all, oh, except the steering is kind of light up to about 25 mph.

richschneid
10-21-2010, 11:09 AM
After driving six BMW's over the past 14 odd yrs, I can honestly say that my decision (disappointing as it was) not to buy the F10 was because it just didn't feel like a BMW. for the reasons already stated The 'wow' factor was conspicuously absent. Not so with my previous bimmers. They all had that DNA that made the driving experience feel special and uniquely BMW. I didn't have to add $10,000 in options or drive 100 mph on a test track to satisfy my expectations of what makes a BMW a BMW. All I had to do is roll out of my dealers' driveway and drive a couple of blocks on the local streets - and instantly the "wow', got to have it factor hit me... Not so with the F10. That's just me.

When I got my first bimmer in 1992 it was the first 740i. It certainly felt like a BMW to me. It was fantastic. My new 550i is about the same size and feels every bit as much like a BMW as my old 740i, just better in just about every single way. Maybe the new 5 has just moved up to a different class of BMW.

I'll bet if you drive the new 3 series in two years properly equipped the way you want it, the old WOW factor will return when you drive it out of the dealer's driveway.

Bethesda E39
10-21-2010, 11:11 AM
I only trust CR if I'm in the market for a washing machine.

Kilgore Trout
10-21-2010, 12:38 PM
I really have very little comments about the new 5-series because of limited exposure.

I am going to take issue however with the "I trust CR for washing machines" or the "CR is only good for surveys" stuff (without meaning to be disrespectful to the above posters). I subscribe to their web service and I've gotten to interact quite a bit with their engineers. Those guys are knowledgeable (and brutally objective) car enthusiasts. They've forgotten more about cars than most of us will ever learn. Their testing procedures are absolutely top notch, and I've continually found their evaluations to be dead-on accurate. In fact, I'd say their car evaluations are probably the best road tests out there - far more trustworthy than C & D, MT, etc because they are devoid of fanboyism.

The trick with CR is to read their reviews, ignore the total score (which is basically silly) and then interpret their findings in light of your own needs. For example, CR will downgrade a car for having limited space in the backseat, but you personally may not have a family and may not need people-carrying capacity.

We should also treat their comments with ergonomics with a grain of salt. The thing I've found with the BMW controls in general is that it takes a long time to get used to some features, and then you come to really like them.

In any case, the fact that we don't agree with a review doesn't mean it was done poorly.

johnbmw6
10-21-2010, 12:52 PM
I think the handling on my 550i xDrive is superior to that of my '93 740i, my '99 540i sport package, my '00 M5, and my '06 650i sport package. I have almost 200,000 miles on these cars and have driven all the M cars on the track at the BMW facility in South Carolina. I don't think these Consumer's Reports reviewers have any idea what they are talking about. I test drove the 550i RWD very fast and hard on twisty hilly back roads in the hills outside of Pittsburgh. It handled better than my 650i even equipped with only the OE grand touring tires. The xDrive version handles even better than the RWD car.

They also complained about the controls. The controls on the F10 are by far the best of any BMW I have ever owned. They just didn't have the time to actually learn how they work. Once you learn them they are nearly perfect and extremely driver friendly and easy to use.

The same limitations apply to the Car and Driver testers to a lesser extent. Besides, to really understand the type of car BMW makes for enthusiasts one has to test the RWD cars with integral active steering, dynamic handling package, and the sport package. The only thing that might be also needed is to put high performance tires on the car instead of grand touring tires. The xDrive versions like my car are not available with IAS but this is made up for by the instantaneous rear to front torque vectoring that virtually eliminates oversteer in hard driving. This I can tell you from personal experience. :thumbup:Totally agree Rich, these so called "testers" should read tossers, just have no idea about the controls or real driving of the vehicles they test.
You need more than a run round the block to make an anyway near accurate assessment for what your driving.;) The latest IDrive is dead easy to use.

bm323
10-21-2010, 06:52 PM
I really have very little comments about the new 5-series because of limited exposure.

I am going to take issue however with the "I trust CR for washing machines" or the "CR is only good for surveys" stuff (without meaning to be disrespectful to the above posters). I subscribe to their web service and I've gotten to interact quite a bit with their engineers. Those guys are knowledgeable (and brutally objective) car enthusiasts. They've forgotten more about cars than most of us will ever learn. Their testing procedures are absolutely top notch, and I've continually found their evaluations to be dead-on accurate. In fact, I'd say their car evaluations are probably the best road tests out there - far more trustworthy than C & D, MT, etc because they are devoid of fanboyism.

The trick with CR is to read their reviews, ignore the total score (which is basically silly) and then interpret their findings in light of your own needs. For example, CR will downgrade a car for having limited space in the backseat, but you personally may not have a family and may not need people-carrying capacity.

We should also treat their comments with ergonomics with a grain of salt. The thing I've found with the BMW controls in general is that it takes a long time to get used to some features, and then you come to really like them.

In any case, the fact that we don't agree with a review doesn't mean it was done poorly.
This CR reviewer who tested the F10 is talking crap. You probably didn't read http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5557988&postcount=11

solstice
10-21-2010, 11:52 PM
I might have to start to subscribe to CR since the review is pretty much spot on.

bm323
10-22-2010, 12:04 AM
I might have to start to subscribe to CR since the review is pretty much spot on.
Do you agree with what is said at 2 min 5 seconds ie the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?

solstice
10-22-2010, 12:10 AM
Do you agree with what is said at 2 min 5 seconds ie the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?

What I recall he says that the steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback something that he could have quoted from me.

bm323
10-22-2010, 12:12 AM
What I recall he says that the steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback something that he could have quoted from me.
Check out what he said at 2:05. Do you agree that the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?

solstice
10-22-2010, 12:16 AM
Check out what he said at 2:05. Do you agree that the numb-on-center is particularly so when the F10 is at its limits, doing twisties/turns (as opposed to when the F10 is going straight)?

I don't know since I'm not sure what he means with numb on center. The steering is always numb at any speed or direction, it's of course much more of a problem when cornering so perhaps that's his complaint. If so, I agree. I find it a bit difficult to take corners with the steering at center :)

bm323
10-22-2010, 12:24 AM
I don't know since I'm not sure what he means with numb on center. The steering is always numb at any speed or direction, it's of course much more of a problem when cornering so perhaps that's his complaint. If so, I agree.

If I recall correctly what pharding complained, then both of you are not in agreement :) also, your complaint is always numb, which is not numb-on-center as alleged by the CR reviewer ;) I have not come across any reviewer (those negative about the steering) who says that the numbness is particularly so as what the CR reviewer is crapping about.

solstice
10-22-2010, 12:37 AM
If I recall correctly what pharding complained, then both of you are not in agreement :) also, your complaint is always numb, which is not numb-on-center as alleged by the CR reviewer ;) I have not come across any reviewer (those negative about the steering) who says that the numbness is particularly so when the F10 is doing turns.

The guy obviously means something else since you can't take turns at the limit with the steering at center. It's forgiveable, anyone can do it. Imo he got it right but uses confusing wording in this specific case. The steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback as he says. It's more of a problem when you corner, especially at the limits when you really need feedback about grip level and road surface. If you want to turn it into a lecture in the english language or complain about him being unclear at that particular point fine but imo he has the fundamentals down.

bm323
10-22-2010, 12:44 AM
The guy obviously means something else since you can't take turns at the limit with the steering at center. It's forgiveable, anyone can do it. Imo he got it right but uses confusing wording in this specific case. The steering has a vague center feel and lack of feedback as he says. It's more of a problem when you corner, especially at the limits when you really need feedback about grip level and road surface. If you want to turn it into a lecture in the english language or complain about him being unclear at that particular point fine but imo he has the fundamentals down.
Sure if it's a matter of language. But from what is said in the video, it's not a language issue; this guy is using terms used by other reviewers and knows nuts what he's talking.

solstice
10-22-2010, 12:49 AM
I've learnt long ago to never discredit someone for not knowing the correct lingo. He has been driving the car and feels it has shortcomings and so what if he re-uses phrases to describe what he experienced.

bm323
10-22-2010, 01:32 AM
I've learnt long ago to never discredit someone for not knowing the correct lingo. He has been driving the car and feels it has shortcomings and so what if he re-uses phrases to describe what he experienced.
This is your opinion. From the way he comments, my opinion is that he knows nuts and is talking crap.

enigma
10-22-2010, 01:52 AM
He doesn't agree with you. Ergo, he must be talking crap. Yeah, that makes sense.

Why are some people so stuck on the notion that everyone is plagiarizing C&D's words and opinions? I maintained, ever since my first test drive at the BMW Ultimate Driving event, that this one didn't meet my subjective expectations (mainly steering and weight). I must have traveled back in time and repeated the C&D article?

Maybe it's your turn to look yourself in the mirror and ask whether it is you who's brain-washed into repeating what BMW ///Marking is spewing?

bm323
10-22-2010, 01:56 AM
He doesn't agree with you. Ergo, he must be talking crap. Yeah, that makes sense.

Why are some people so stuck on the notion that everyone is plagiarizing C&D's words and opinions? I maintained, ever since my first test drive at the BMW Ultimate Driving event, that this one didn't meet my subjective expectations (mainly steering and weight). I must have traveled back in time and repeated the C&D article?

Maybe it's your turn to look yourself in the mirror and ask whether it is you who's brain-washed into repeating what BMW ///Marking is spewing?
You are crapping now. My opinion that this CR reviewer is crapping not cos he doesn't agree with me. Read the posts before you shi* in your backyard. Did I even suggest that solstice is crapping cos i don't agree with him?

richschneid
10-22-2010, 04:57 AM
Clearly, everyone here seems to agree that opinions about the steering are subjective and the amount of "feedback" and "feel" is not independently measurable using objective criteria. What can be objectively measured includes things like the number of degrees of steering wheel rotation and the corresponding number of degrees that the car turns. The amount of force needed to be applied to the steering wheel to rotate it at different speeds and steering settings.

But whether or not a particular person likes or dislikes how the steering "feels" is by definition subjective. Another question which is also interesting would be to the have the same person give his opinion when he first drives the car and then a month or two later after driving it everyday. I don't have electric steering (the xDrive steering has hydralic assist) but even after two weeks of ownership even the steering in comfort mode in parking lots seems a lot "heftier" than when I first drove the car. From a purely neurophysiologic perspective the human brain always adapts in some way to sensory input over time. The nature and amount of this adaptation will always vary from individual to individual. So, my experience here is purely subjective and not applicable to others, but that does not exclude the some people will have a similar subjective experience to the one I am having.

I also think that it is reasonable to evalauate cars with and without IAS back to back by the same person before making generalizations about the steering on all F10s. This goes for the hydralic assisted steering on the xDrive models as well.