Now It Can Be Told [Archive] - bimmerfest

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Stuka

01-02-2004, 09:48 PM

I know that my switch from the BMW camp to the Porsche camp seems rather sudden, and truth be told, I loved my M3, but the ordeal that I experienced in getting the dealer that totaled my car during their joyriding to do the right thing, and BMWNA's usual lack of customer service attitude really made me rethink what I thought was going to be an easy decision of simply ordering another M3.

Here's how it all happened:

I custom ordered my M3 with SMG and Xenon only. It was Carbon Black, it had no moon roof, and had the cloth seats instead of leather. I simply did not want options I did not need and wanted a unique car. As some of you who have custom ordered your cars might recall, it takes about 3 months from 111 status to picking up the car at the dealership.

Part I, The Customer is Unreasonable:

On 7/28, I brought my 30K mile 02 M3 with SMG to Savage BMW for a routine oil change. They put me in an E46 330Xi loaner, and sent me on my merry way. The next day, 7/29, my service advisor (SA) called me and left a message with the office receptionist informing me that my car was ready for pick up. I did not get the message until almost the end of the day, so I called my SA back the next morning (7/30) and told him that I'd be there after work to pick up my car.

At 3:42PM on 7/30, my SA called and informed me that my car was crashed by their test driver while out on an unauthorized test drive. How do I know that it was unauthorized? Well, my SA admitted it, saying that the car was already QC'ed on 7/29, which was why he called that day to inform me that the car was ready for pick up. In fact, the test driver, in his early twenties, did not even have a tech sheet with him. He apparently wanted to see what an M3 could do. I was told by my SA that I should come by the next morning to check out my car and meet with the owner, Peter Savage, to discuss a solution to the situation.

So I called Raffi, who’s a lawyer, told him what happened, and asked him to come with me to the dealership. I brushed off that nagging negative feeling of not getting a call from the owner of the dealership for something this major, and I thought that based on my previous experience with Savage BMW, that Peter Savage would make it right. Up to this point, Savage BMW had been a great dealership in service, always providing me with loaners and taking good care of my car. They were always able to fix whatever issues I have with my car, and were always pleasant to deal with. On top of that, I have never met another SA as upstanding as Eric Hall. Based on that, I thought that I'd show up, they'd apologize, and if the car were badly damaged, we’d work out something reasonable.

The next morning, 7/31, Raffi showed up at 6 in the morning, and we drove over to Savage BMW. My SA greeted us and led us to the car for us to inspect the carnage.

As best as I was able to determine, the test driver lost control of my car turning right. The car went into a very fast oversteer, the driver could not correct it and the driver-side rear wheel hit the concrete curb so hard, it broke off. The rear control arm snapped off and the impact caused the panel behind the driver door to be pulled in by the frame, breaking the welds. The momentum then carried the car along the concrete curb and rashed the front wheel, damaged the front suspension and twisted the front bumper. In the process, both the driver side door and head airbags deployed.

Upon further inspection, we discovered that the driver side front quarter panel rivets securing it to the engine bay were knocked out of alignment by a good 5mm. Furthermore, the driver side partitioning wall near the strut tower was torn all the way down, and the rear driver quarter panel was gouged by the trunk lid hitting the panel, all due to the sheer force of the impact. None of the panels in the car (doors, trunk, hood) were correctly aligned anymore, all from a “QC test drive.” The rear half of the car was twisted upwards and towards the passenger side a good half inch.

Does that sound like a BMW prescribed QC test drive?

So at around 8 o'clock, we met with Bill Smith, the service manager. After seeing the condition of my car, I told him flat out that I didn't want the car back, as it was obviously totalled and would never be the same. He labeled my request as totally unreasonable and even countered by asking "If you get into an accident on the track, do you automatically get a new car?" The service manager then figured out pretty quickly that Raffi was a lawyer, and advised us that we would have to speak to the owner, Peter Savage himself, and ended the meeting.

So after an hour, we were finally able to meet with Mr. Savage. However, upon learning that I had a lawyer with me, Peter Savage was not even going to meet with me, unless Raffi was not present in the meeting. It was clear to me he was trying to take advantage of his business skills, and get me to agree to whatever he put on the table. After some stern words from Raffi, Mr. Savage finally agreed to meet with us. In the meeting, I told him that all I wanted was to have them buy my car back at Blue Book retail, and give me a new M3 at invoice, and something to drive in the mean time. They could then deal with my old car as they wished. I was obviously going to absorb the difference between the used car blue book and the new car invoice, since after all, my car was not brand new. Mr. Savage, who looked very uncomfortable by now, thought that I was being unreasonable, and retorted with irrelevant questions, such as: "Let me ask you this, if you had crashed my loaner, do I automatically get a new one from you? and "I know that Andy takes this car to the track, and that he did not exactly baby the car" and, best of all, "I heard from the service guys that the tires were bald" (to which we have photographic evidence showing otherwise). Mr. Savage refused to even acknowledge liability for the joyride incident, and brushed the problem off by telling us to deal with his insurance company. Only after Raffi brought up the issue did Mr. Savage at least allow me to keep the 330xi loaner until their insurance company found us a suitable rental. He told us to pick up a copy of their insurance card from Bill Smith to file the claim, then sent us on our way and ended the meeting.

Now what would you do if you were not fortunate enough to have a lawyer friend like Raffi who also happened to be a car nut? I would be left to deal with insurance companies which, as we know, are not exactly the quickest to pay and would try to drag this matter on forever until I gave up and accepted a lowball offer. This alone is the reason why even though we settled the property damage claim in October, I feel compelled to share my story with you all.

Part II, We'll Fix Your Car:

Before we left Savage, I decided to chat with their on-site body shop. The estimator told me that based on visual inspection, the car had sustained about $20K in damage. Unfortunately for him, I have clients in the body shop business, and I also happen to be very familiar with both Ultramate and Pathways, the estimating programs for body shops. The car was totaled, without question, a tweaked front, wheel broken off, airbags, torn off bumper, and miscellaneous other damage, and he thought there was only $20K in damage?

We then left the dealership, feeling "savaged." At 2:31 PM, I got on the phone with Sania at BMW NA customer service, and told her what had happened. Sania apologized, took my complaint and filed it under my VIN number, fed us the same line of "we can't do anything because the dealer is an independent company" and ended the phone conversation. I was looking for some help and guidance from BMW NA and all I got was a bland apology.

I then called my SA and requested that the car be towed to Marco's Universal City body shop for a neutral third party estimate. Savage BMW seemed reluctant to relinquish the car, so I had to call again on 8/1 and finally the car was towed to Marcos in Universal City. I had to be firm and insist that the car be fixed elsewhere, so that there would not be any possible influence by Savage.

After 3 months of back and forth with the insurance carrier for Savage, the car was finally totalled. What would have happened to me if I didn’t know anyhing about the body shop business? I would have allowed them to fix the car for $20K and gotten a car that is basically worthless because it is now tweaked on both the front and the rear, with a severely affected resale value. To this day, however, Savage BMW and its insurance carrier insist that this was just an accident, not the result of a joyride. Now, again, if the car was ready for pick up on 7/29, how could my M3 be wrecked while the QC tech was on a "scheduled test drive" on 7/30, one day after the car was already ready for pick up? Why would my SA admit that it was a joyride? And if I didn't retain a lawyer, and didn't have any knowledge of the body shop business, I am sure that I would have been suckered into getting my car fixed, which would have taken several months, and would have ended up with a 30K mile E46 M3 with a severely tweaked frame that was allegedly "good as new."

Moral of the story? Be wary of Savage BMW.

rumratt

01-02-2004, 09:54 PM

:jawdrop:

xspeedy

01-02-2004, 10:06 PM

Sounds like typical dealer BS to me. Dealing with getting ED damage repaired is frustrating me to the point of not wanting another BMW. I can get poor after sales service at Honda.

01-02-2004, 10:09 PM

Wow Stuka, I had no idea.

Sorry to hear about all that, and the resulting bad taste it left in your mouth with respect to the dealership, as well as BMWNA.

On a happier note, tell me more about your Porsche (options, driving impressions).

01-02-2004, 10:43 PM

i don't see how that could be only 20K in damage :tsk:

pretty despicable imho for not allowing your lawyer to be in attendence.

Plaz

01-02-2004, 10:48 PM

:wow:

TGray5

01-02-2004, 10:48 PM

Wow, painful to read the gory details. May I ask, did you end up getting high blue book from them? Was the employee fired? And how are you liking the new car?

·clyde·

01-02-2004, 10:50 PM

:yikes:

Stuka

01-02-2004, 10:57 PM

Wow, painful to read the gory details. May I ask, did you end up getting high blue book from them? Was the employee fired? And how are you liking the new car?

Question number 1, I'll defer to my AAL, aka, Raffi. :angel:

Yes, Mitchel was fired. :violent:

Turbo, what can I say about the car that I wanted since I was 15? It kicks a$$ :thumbup: Breakin is 2000 miles, and I don't even have 800 miles on this thing. So at the moment, I can only go no more than 4200 rpm. By March Sears Point school, the car should be all nicely broken in and ready for the 6500rpm redline. :drive: :bigpimp:

Bwahahahaha, Stuka in the Turbo, an instructor's worse nightmare. :bigpimp: :angel:

Parump

01-02-2004, 11:11 PM

Stuka

01-02-2004, 11:16 PM

If I were Tom Purves, Mr. Savage would expect a personal telephone call from me. If Mr. Savage failed to compensate you for the "blue book" value of the car and offer you a "special" deal on a new M3, Mr. Savage might just be selling used Yugos next week.

There are absolutely no acceptable excuses for this, and I hope that Raffi was able to assist you.

What a tragedy!

None of that happened. :tsk:

Remember, my original offer was that they buy the car from me at Blue book, and let me spec a new M3 at invoice? I was happy to absorb the difference, since the car was not brand new.

Savage thought that I was being unreasonable. :mad:

And seeing as though BMWNA loves to repeat the line about "dealers being independent franchise from BMWNA," I don't see BMWNA making any sorts of impact on this, or that they cared to. :thumbdwn: Remember also that I had filed a complaint about Savage that same day with BMWNA Customer Serivce? :(

Parump

01-02-2004, 11:27 PM

Doesn't BMWNA have contractual agreements with the Centers? Really, can you imagine any other car company ignoring such flagrant abuse of the corporate name? Clearly, your car did not have a simple mishap. Why doesn't BMWNA remove the electronic monitoring equipment and verify the tachometer settings etc.? Someone at Savage drove recklessly.

Of all the stories involving a BMW Center, this is absolutely the worst! I hope that your new car provides some solace.

doeboy

01-03-2004, 12:40 AM

Yes, Mitchel was fired. :violent:

Hmm... why does that name sound eerily familiar? :eeps: I hope it's not the same person I'm thinking of, but you never know I guess.... Did you see who this person was?

swchang

01-03-2004, 01:04 AM

Wow, sorry to hear about all this. Are you at least happy with the outcome?

BTW, what happened to the kid who crashed your car? Did he just walk away blame-free? Can I just go to every car dealership in my area and crash all their cars and then not be held responsible?

BlackChrome

01-03-2004, 01:22 AM

Sorry to hear about this. This story is just so unbelievable! :(

DevExpert

01-03-2004, 05:48 AM

Stuka,

Story is unbelievable. I am glad you’ve got it resolved on your satisfaction. Who knows what would’ve happened if your lawyer was not present since beginning. There is a lesson to be learned there.

I also love the fact that you voted with your money and stayed away from BMW. That is the only way to show your dissatisfaction.
Vote with your $$$ people!

mquetel

01-03-2004, 06:14 AM

:eek:

What a nightmare...

01-03-2004, 06:38 AM

What a nightmare. Glad to hear you were saavy enough to get things resolved to your satisfaction. :thumbup:

After re-reading your story, it makes me wonder. Do you think there are car dealerships that would have taken a different approach? The only thing I can think of that set them off that way was you showing up with a lawyer.

hmr

01-03-2004, 06:41 AM

Moral of the story? Be wary of Savage BMW.

I'd say a parallel moral is not to leave your car at a dealer unnecessarily long so that punk-ass snots can't be tempted into joy-riding.

What a horrible experience. You'd think they would have wanted to keep your loyalty somehow.

The lawyer thing from the get-go may not have been such a good idea. It sounds like it really put them on the defensive, to your disadvantage maybe.

mquetel

01-03-2004, 07:11 AM

The lawyer thing from the get-go may not have been such a good idea. It sounds like it really put them on the defensive, to your disadvantage maybe.

I can't see how this made a (negative) difference in what Savage was willing to initially offer him, just the manner in which it was offered.

I think I would rather enter such a situation with someone familiar with legal rights and process, not to mention someone who would not be clouded by anger and emotion. The fact that Savage was so defensive means to me they had no interest in good faith.

sky

01-03-2004, 09:11 AM

ObD

01-03-2004, 09:47 AM

Seems to me you were very reasonable. Savage dropped the ball. Insurance rates and word of mouth will get them in the end. Stupid and short-sighted.

The Roadstergal

01-03-2004, 10:12 AM

Dear lord. What a bunch of utter fu***********cktards. So - I'm not seeing in the description, what was the end result, as far as getting the value of the totalled M3 back?

I wouldn't touch that dealership with a 10-foot pole, unless it was to beat them about the head with it. Shame on BMWNA for doing nothing. Yeah, this incident does make one think about one's consumer decisions.

car_for_mom

01-03-2004, 10:30 AM

Stuka,

Horrible, horrible, horrible! :mad: Disgraceful!

I am so sorry to hear about your nightmare; oh, you can believe I won't go anywhere near Savage BMW! (and they advertise a lot on local radio).

It seems to me that BMW Headquarters should have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Mr. Savage; perhaps he needs to be finding another line of work?

You get a car you've dreamed of, you entrust it for service to people who supposedly know what they're doing - and look what happens! Arrgh! Any customer's car, from the humblest 325i to the Alpina should be treated with courtesy, professionalism and respect!

I hope you thoroughly enjoy your Porsche and that the service people at the Porsche dealer will not be afflicted with Anal-Cranial Inversion Disorder like the people at Savage!

Jetfire

01-03-2004, 11:49 AM

Holy crap. Props to you for standing up for yourself and voting with your checkbook. I hope other dealers read this story from both sides and take measures to be reasonable when things like this happen. Let's face it -- there are tons of idiots all over the place, and I'm sure a handful of them work at your favorite dealer. These accidents probably happen all the time. Good dealers should know how to handle the situation, and to learn from other dealers' mistakes.

JonW

01-03-2004, 02:32 PM

Stuka,

Sorry you had to deal with all that- sounds incredibly aggravating.

Might I ask why your license plate has a frame from a dealer (who happens to me my local one) out here in Indiana?

wingspan

01-03-2004, 03:56 PM

Man, that sucks. What about: http://www.dealerrater.com/ :dunno:

Parump

01-03-2004, 06:52 PM

I continue to be troubled by the lack of responsibility of the BMW Center. If Stuka had owned a 325i, then the car could be easily replaced, in contrast to the M3 for which demand greatly exceeds supply. The most salient fact is that the car appears to have been abused - air bags deployed, snapped suspension parts, frame damage. If the accident were the consequence of a fender bender, then repair and restoration might be reasonable.

I don't think that the presence of an attorney was unreasonable or unduly intimidating considering the circumstances. Furthermore, Stuka made a very generous suggestion for resolving the situation. If a BMW owner were to claim that an engine failure was due to a manufacturing defect, BMWNA would spare no effort or expense to ascertain the cause of the problem and avoid unwarranted repairs at their cost.

How can a quality control check for an oil change justify such reckless action?

Why Mr. Savage didn't simply say, I need to consult my attorney and I will contact you is simply dumbfounding. Your recounting of the story and his comments about your driving habits are very disappointing. This is the reason why, in my opinion, BMWNA should seriously reconsider their business relationship for this Center.

I am truly disheartened by this posting . . .

·clyde·

01-03-2004, 07:06 PM

The HACK

01-03-2004, 07:12 PM

So I had to keep quiet about this as well for almost 6 months now.

What really surprised me was that they REFUSE to accept the offer to buy back the WRECKED M3, which THEY wrecked, at blue book (which their insurance will cover) value, and offer Stuka a new M3 spec'ed to his order, at their invoice. They wouldn't lose a single dime but their insurance deductible (which they would lose anyway), and retain a loyal customer (Stuka), and save themselves all this embarassment that they should have coming their way. I mean, if they had done the right thing, we'd be hearing how great Savage is at taking care of their customer, and how upfront their service department is.

As is, I can't even go to Savage anymore because I simply can't trust them. What if they crash my car as well, am I going to be subjugeted to the same crap? I can no longer afford Raffi, since he IS working now. :rolleyes:

What pisses me off the most, is that a lot of the people involved here are good guys. A couple of asses totally botched this matter up. Eric Hall, whom both Stuka and I deal with regularly and have become friends with, is a great guy. But can we continue to work with Eric? I would, but I wouldn't work with him when he's at Savage.

Okay, now it's off my chest. You guys can ask why Stuka is driving a beat up E30 325iS at the track now.

The HACK

01-03-2004, 07:20 PM

If I still lived in LA, I think that I might call Savage (probably write a letter, actually) and explain that based on this incident, I will never bring my BMW there for service and will recommend to any friends/family that are looking for BMW sales/service to avoid Savage and tell them why.

:thumbup:

I'll be calling Monday...

"Um, yeah...Mr Savage? I was in the market for a loaded 645Ci and I'm ready to put down a full cash deposit for a car that I'm not going to see for another 6 months? Well, I read this post on Bimmerfest.com about how your service department crashed this 'Stuka' character's E46 M3 and refused to do the right thing by replacing his car. Well, if you would treat an existing customer like this, I don't feel comfortable purchasing a vehicle from your dealership. In fact, None of my family and friends will feel comfortable purchasing a vehicle from you or having their cars serviced at your dealership."

·clyde·

01-03-2004, 07:59 PM

Compare to a dealer that did the right thing after something much more minor.
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17596

The Roadstergal

01-03-2004, 08:26 PM

Compare to a dealer that did the right thing after something much more minor.
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17596

:thumbup:

I hope Savage sees this thread. It just blows my mind that a dealership won't take responsibility for a car that one of their employees wrecked by joyriding.

Stuka

01-03-2004, 08:49 PM

:mad: That's really incredible!! I'm sure once the word gets around about this
dealership, here and on the other forums, they're going to lose quite a bit of
business...I know that I won't even THINK about going there. I don't think
your request for KBB and invoice was unreasonable at all. The dealership
should have agreed since it would have been the "right" thing to do.

Well, at least you got the car that you always wanted! Hopefully, when you
take in your Porsche TT for service, they'll treat you better! Good luck with
the TT:thumbup:

Well, feel free to link this thread to other forums that you all visit. :angel:

As far as the PorkChop service, I'll keep you guys posted. I plan on paying for the 2000 mile breakin oil change at the dealership to build some good will, will let you know if the car is still in one piece when the pick up time comes. :bigpimp:

Stuka

01-03-2004, 08:53 PM

Man, that sucks. What about: http://www.dealerrater.com/ :dunno:

Already done. :thumbup:

Stuka

01-03-2004, 08:57 PM

Maybe this thread will spread across the internet like wildfire, like that one about the ebay Mitsubishi Evo. :eeps:

Well, I really only visit here and rennlist regularly, and sometimes, 6speedonline and Toadfly.

But feel free to post the link in other auto forums that you all frequent. :angel:

Matthew330Ci

01-03-2004, 09:21 PM

wow, that's just an incredible story. well you got the porkchop so i guess it worked out in the end. enjoy the new car.

Raffi

01-04-2004, 12:53 AM

Might I ask why your license plate has a frame from a dealer (who happens to me my local one) out here in Indiana?
Jon, Stuka bought the car from that dealer in Indiana.

Chendol

01-04-2004, 05:56 AM

That really sucks. I'm surprised BMWNA is not doing more about the situation or to reign in their dealers. Why doesn't BMWNA not get it that even if they make great cars, if their dealers are bad, no one will be buying BMW but Mercs, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, etc.

Buff_AGM

01-04-2004, 06:34 AM

Wow. It sucks that all the great passion for cars from the engineer and consumer can be rendered a footnote by a piece of @#$% third party. Congratulations on finding your way through this mess and taking the time to post.

Technic

01-04-2004, 06:57 AM

Wow, wow, WOW!!! :jawdrop:

Just by reading this nightmare I got a headache, my friend!!! Yes, you did the right thing in getting a lawyer right there since the beginning, if not we were reading that still you are fighting this dealer for your car instead.

Congratulations on getting this solved to your satisfaction -I think-, and thanks for sharing this with us.

Parump

01-04-2004, 07:57 AM

Here's the link for the Mitsubishi Dealer and ebay story
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=442510&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

missing23

01-04-2004, 08:15 AM

Wow, that is horrible. Hope everything works out for you.

On a lighter side, are you a Purdue grad? (Saw the Lafayette plate holder)

01-04-2004, 08:24 AM

This story must be spreading like wildfire, check out the number of views in such a short period. :yikes:

Mathew

01-04-2004, 08:41 AM

This story must be spreading like wildfire, check out the number of views in such a short period. :yikes:

Wow, it just blew past the "alee sux" thread and the "coupe vs. 4 door" thread.

Technic

01-04-2004, 09:10 AM

Here's the link for the Mitsubishi Dealer and ebay story
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=442510&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Daaamn! The only thing that I can say is that it seems that I've been very lucky with dealers after reading these horror stories...

3600 replies, 146 pages, more than a million views, posted in tens of boards, complaints to Ebay, BB, Mitsubishi, the dealer, countless of phone calls to the dealer operator... and the guy did not buy the car at the end... truth is stranger than fiction.

·clyde·

01-04-2004, 09:18 AM

This story must be spreading like wildfire, check out the number of views in such a short period. :yikes:
I posted a link on an RX8 board.

Who else posted links?

The HACK

01-04-2004, 09:24 AM

Let's see if Ms. Atkens will respond to this thread next week. :thumbup:

Matthew330Ci

01-04-2004, 10:55 AM

Here's the link for the Mitsubishi Dealer and ebay story
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=442510&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

you know, i was wondering about that thread after reading this. thanks for posting the link.

and I guess 1 good thing about savage is they give loaners to people who didn't buy the car from them, unlike crevier. i still wouldn't go to savage cuz of what i read and cuz it's so far away from me.

Pinecone

01-04-2004, 10:56 AM

Matthew330Ci

01-04-2004, 11:02 AM

As I have said before, including in a letter to ROUndel, BMW NA COULD reign in their dealers, if they cared. All dealers are thrid parties. But if a dealer does stupid thing, the manufacturer reduces allocations, and does other things to convince the dealer to do the right thing.

Other manufacturers rate their dealers and publish the ratings. My local Jeep dealer is a 5 Star dealer and works HARD to maintain that rating.

BMW NA just doesn't care. And until they start doing something to contorl their dealers, I will stand by this opinion.

I had an infiniti dealer yell at me and stare me down as i left after they refused to fix my navigation. they were yelling at me to go to the dealer i bought it from (50 miles away) when i called infiniti usa, they gave me the same line, we can't do anything cuz they're an independent company, blabla.

I did however, get a survey in the mail, and boy did I let em have it, I tried to be fair though, since I figured 1's across the board would be disregarded, I rated them 'good' on things that were good, but on others' I didn't hold back on the 1's. I never heard anything from the dealer or Infiniti USA about the survey.

Emission

01-04-2004, 11:37 AM

Wow! What an amazing (and frightening) story.

Dealers can be such pricks. Seems they don't seem to understand Customer Service - the type that drives more business to their dealership. Idiots.

I don't think you were unreasonable. Their question about you crashing their loaner is stupid - you had permission to drive their vehicle - they didn't have permission to hot rod yours. :tsk:

You deserved a brand-new M3.

01-04-2004, 11:58 AM

I had an infiniti dealer yell at me and stare me down as i left after they refused to fix my navigation. they were yelling at me to go to the dealer i bought it from (50 miles away) when i called infiniti usa, they gave me the same line, we can't do anything cuz they're an independent company, blabla.

I did however, get a survey in the mail, and boy did I let em have it, I tried to be fair though, since I figured 1's across the board would be disregarded, I rated them 'good' on things that were good, but on others' I didn't hold back on the 1's. I never heard anything from the dealer or Infiniti USA about the survey.
reminds me of this thread :eek:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37916 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37916&highlight=service+dealer)

01-04-2004, 01:22 PM

This story must be spreading like wildfire, check out the number of views in such a short period. :yikes:

I don't know what the lag time is in terms of the "Views" being refreshed, but when I posted this morning at 8:24 am, the views of this particular thread was at 1,768. Now, it is over 2,800 views.

1,000 additional views in about 5 hours? :eek: :yikes:

Galun

01-04-2004, 07:29 PM

Three things:

1) If something like this happens to me, I will need to bring a lawyer with me to negociations.
2) I don't see what kind of difference it makes whether the car was crashed on an authorized QC inspection or not (obivously it seems like it's not authorized). Stuka brought the car into the dealership in one piece, he should get it back in one piece. The fact of the matter is that the car had been crashed by someone who works at the dealership, and they should take responsibility.
3) Judging on how they treated Stuka, I wonder how often this had happened. They were trying to take advantage of him at every process of the negociation where there was money involved.

I hope this thread spreads like the Mitsu Evo thread.

01-04-2004, 07:34 PM

I posted a link on an RX8 board.

Who else posted links?
Is that why the server's slow now? :p

Jon S.

01-04-2004, 08:03 PM

Billystronghand

01-04-2004, 09:04 PM

Yeah, this is spreading around a lot. Just thought i'd mention it is now on to the j-body.org which is the main forum/site for cavalier and sunfire owners. I know, we're poor and don't typically own BMW's but maybe our parents do. Actually, my step-dad has a 325, my mom has an '04 Acura MDX, and my dad has an '02 Lexus 300ES i think. I'll be making sure they don't go to this dealership if we ever move close to it. Anyway, sorry to hear about your experience and i hope you enjoy your Porsche. Damn, and i thought it was just us poor j-body owners that screwed over at the dealerships. Oh well, layta.

Parump

01-04-2004, 09:17 PM

Jon,

I understand the independent franchise agreement between BMWNA and the Center operators. However, an M3 does not appear to be an easily replaced vehicle. Consequently, in my opinion, Mr. Purves should have arranged for a special delivery of a suitable M3 for Stuka in conjunction with Savage BMW. Yes, there are contractual obligations but a signed non disclosure agreement and little goodwill by the affected parties could have resolved this amicably and reaffirmed that BMW offers service comparable to their excellently engineered and assembled vehicles.

I realize that the matter is essentially closed. Yet, I still think that a call from BMWNA with a sincere offer to meet with Stuka to talk couldn't hurt. Besides, maybe Stuka would consider to trade his current vehicle for another BMW if the proper incentives were offered.

It's tragic that a relatively small number of greedy people with tens of millions of dollars hold these exclusive franchises to the detriment of BMWNA and customers alike!

Just my opinion . . .

This story is a very sad one for me to read. One thing that I'd like all
of you to realize is that BMWNA will not take action or impose sanctions
against any dealer in a matter such as this - no matter how much public
pressure there is to do so.

BMW Center Operators (dealer principals) are independent businessmen; end of story.

Unless there is a material breach of the franchise agreement between the manufacturer and the dealer, nothing will likely be done beyond perhaps a telephone
call, or a visit from the Market Manager (Jim Cagle?).

The heavy-hitter to target would be someone such as Ed Robinson, #2 to
Tom Purves. Sounds like it's too late now anyway.

Nothin' for Savage to salvage.... :(

I've been upset with Savage since they 'blew out' my General Sales Mgr. buddy
Phil Testrow last summer.

TGray5

01-04-2004, 09:37 PM

Well, did you get the CSI phone call from BMWNA for the oil change? :rofl: :rofl: Hammer Time! Poor CSI ratings in the aggregate do hurt the dealer's allocations I believe.

Stuka

01-04-2004, 09:41 PM

Well, did you get the CSI phone call from BMWNA for the oil change? :rofl: :rofl: Hammer Time! Poor CSI ratings in the aggregate do hurt the dealer's allocations I believe.

I did, I gave them all 1's except for my SA, Eric Hall, who I gave 5 because he duly deserves it. :thumbup:

IF anything, I am really bummed that I:

1. No longer haev an M3.

2. Can't see Eric any more and shoot the **** with him. I have never met a better SA than him. It really is too bad. :cry:

The HACK

01-04-2004, 10:26 PM

...2. Can't see Eric any more and shoot the **** with him. I have never met a better SA than him. It really is too bad. :cry:
:(

Eric was truly a cool guy. I mean, I continue to go to Savage despite what had happened to Stuka because I KNOW for sure Eric will take good care of me.

Of course, now that the dust has all but settled, I will stand by Stuka and boycut Savage as well. I hope Petey is reading this thread somehow.

Akakubi

01-05-2004, 01:04 AM

:yikes: :cry: :mad: Holy smokes, Stuka!

This is insane! I feel so sorry for you. That dealer will go down if they keep doing business like that.

Yikes.... :bawling:

Buff_AGM

01-05-2004, 07:05 AM

I understand there are always contracts, obligations and such concering what BMWNA can and can't do. However, I can't help but think BMWNA could somehow had a greater influence on how this issue was resolved. I could be wrong, but I just dont see this situation happening with Lexus or Infiniti. I love BMW products, but I definitly have reservations of being a loyal, long term customer to a brand that cannot control the quality of its ownership experience.

CtrlAltDel

01-05-2004, 08:05 AM

omg man
that story is soooo sad

:(

biodan

01-05-2004, 09:10 AM

This story must be over 20yrs old but i've never heard anything
other than rumors. SF BayArea folks may wonder why there
is no BMW dealership in Palo Alto (nearest ones are in SanMateo
and Mountain View). Evidently there used to be one in PaloAlto
where Stanford European Auto is currently located. More than
20 yrs ago, the dealership closed. I don't know if Allison BMW
in Mountain View is the re-located version of that former
Palo Alto BMW dealership... however,

From long-term locals, i've heard rumors that something terribly
shady occured there that caused its closure.
If so, that would mean something
other than a violation of the franchise terms occured.

This story is a very sad one for me to read. One thing that I'd like all
of you to realize is that BMWNA will not take action or impose sanctions
against any dealer in a matter such as this - no matter how much public
pressure there is to do so.

BMW Center Operators (dealer principals) are independent businessmen; end of story.

Unless there is a material breach of the franchise agreement between the manufacturer and the dealer, nothing will likely be done beyond perhaps a telephone
call, or a visit from the Market Manager (Jim Cagle?).

The heavy-hitter to target would be someone such as Ed Robinson, #2 to
Tom Purves. Sounds like it's too late now anyway.

Nothin' for Savage to salvage.... :(

I've been upset with Savage since they 'blew out' my General Sales Mgr. buddy
Phil Testrow last summer.

Pinecone

01-05-2004, 09:22 AM

This story is a very sad one for me to read. One thing that I'd like all
of you to realize is that BMWNA will not take action or impose sanctions
against any dealer in a matter such as this - no matter how much public
pressure there is to do so.

BMW Center Operators (dealer principals) are independent businessmen; end of story.

Unless there is a material breach of the franchise agreement between the manufacturer and the dealer, nothing will likely be done beyond perhaps a telephone
call, or a visit from the Market Manager (Jim Cagle?).

The heavy-hitter to target would be someone such as Ed Robinson, #2 to
Tom Purves. Sounds like it's too late now anyway.

Nothin' for Savage to salvage.... :(

I've been upset with Savage since they 'blew out' my General Sales Mgr. buddy
Phil Testrow last summer.

Jon, it is only because BMW NA lacks the fortitude to handle their dealers. They are stuck in tehearly mold of trying to dfind dealers to handle these odd foreign cars in the time when American cars ruled. That is no longer the case. If one dealer in an area is NOT doing hte right thing, there are other people around who would love to have a BMW dealership.

Look at the volume of stories about how dealers treat customers. That type of thing grows, and with the Internet gets around. And it hurts BMW overall.

People in other areas who hear of this story, probably repeated and misquoted will consider their options and buy something else. It is not like there are no options these days.

I am sure you know how Honda got the mulitple years running JD Power Reliability award. It was not on being more reliable, they were the same or worse than most cars. But they did it by jumping on their dealers to provide a better service experience to the customers. Better treatment, on time appointments, on time returns, wfixing the cars the first time. BMW should have heeded this rather than take the attitude that they can do nothing.

They CAN, if they want to. They just don't see any need, and that ultimately will hurt the brand in the US.

Jon S.

01-05-2004, 10:03 AM

Grandiosity starts at the top.

With few exceptions, every brand of automobiles has experienced
record growth year over year for the past decade. The biggest
jump has been in the 'highline' segment. Record sales mean record
profits for the retailers. The problem is not unique to BMW, btw.

Perhaps the only luxury brand to truly break away from the industry
standard is Lexus, and the reason for this is that they were the
'new kid on the block' when the company was launched in the
early 90's. Their core values are intrinsically different as a brand,
as they relate to their dealers as well as their customers.

As stated previously, grandiosity starts at the top. Dealers get
fat when business is good. I've worked for several, and have
represented the following brands in my career:

Alfa Romeo, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Daihatsu,
Dodge, Eagle, Geo, Honda, Isuzu, Jaguar, Jeep, Land Rover,
Lincoln-Mercury, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Oldsmobile, Plymouth,
and Porsche.

The business is the same wherever you go. Factory rep calls
or faxes to relay a complaint, and it ends there.

EDIT: Generic dealer's reply when confronted by manufacturer:
"Phuck you - don't tell me how to run my business."

Thank GOD that there are exceptions to this rule...
:angel:

Jon, it is only because BMW NA lacks the fortitude to handle their dealers. They are stuck in tehearly mold of trying to dfind dealers to handle these odd foreign cars in the time when American cars ruled. That is no longer the case. If one dealer in an area is NOT doing hte right thing, there are other people around who would love to have a BMW dealership.

Look at the volume of stories about how dealers treat customers. That type of thing grows, and with the Internet gets around. And it hurts BMW overall.

People in other areas who hear of this story, probably repeated and misquoted will consider their options and buy something else. It is not like there are no options these days.

I am sure you know how Honda got the mulitple years running JD Power Reliability award. It was not on being more reliable, they were the same or worse than most cars. But they did it by jumping on their dealers to provide a better service experience to the customers. Better treatment, on time appointments, on time returns, wfixing the cars the first time. BMW should have heeded this rather than take the attitude that they can do nothing.

They CAN, if they want to. They just don't see any need, and that ultimately will hurt the brand in the US.

The HACK

01-05-2004, 10:24 AM

ARCHER

01-05-2004, 10:27 AM

Who else posted links?

:hi: Two other BMW boards so far...

Very sorry to hear about that Stuka. It truly leaves me speechless.

jeff330i

01-05-2004, 11:29 AM

stuka I have a good feeling you'll get a formal phone call of apology from savage, probably asking you to take back nasty comments you've said after realizing what they got into. keep us posted.

Plaz

01-05-2004, 11:30 AM

stuka I have a good feeling you'll get a formal phone call of apology from savage, probably asking you to take back nasty comments you've said after realizing what they got into. keep us posted. Either that or a lawsuit for besmirching their good name. :rolleyes:

sky

01-05-2004, 11:41 AM

Either that or a lawsuit for besmirching their good name. :rolleyes:
After all is said and done, the only name the dealer will have is "MUD"!!...
and deservedly so.

·clyde·

01-05-2004, 11:41 AM

Personally I think taking an ad out in the local (Riverside, San Bernardino, north Orange County) newspapers may be the best way to educate local car owners about their lack of respect for other people's property left in their care.
The web has become a pretty powerful aqnd inexpensive tool for situations like this. Think of the dealer that tried to back out of that Mitsubishi Evo aution on eBay or the mechanic that bragged on a message board about abusing a customer's Mustang Cobra. The number of views this thread is getting is starting to get impressive as word is spreading. If you want to take out an ad in a paper, go the whole way and place it in the LA Times if there aren't too many zeros in the rate quote. :eeps: Hell, I might even be willing to pitch in a couple bucks for that...

The Roadstergal

01-05-2004, 11:44 AM

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/z3-lounge/forum.php?postid=4434079&page=1

Jetfire

01-05-2004, 11:56 AM

Agreed. Now that the internet (and more specifically the web) has become a very large part of our culture, stories like this have become increasingly powerful. For a "free" medium, it does a surprisingly good job of targeting its users. For example, a newspaper ad might be read by a certain percentage of people who buy the paper, some of whom may be car enthuisasts, some of whom may be BMW owners or prospective owners. A popular thread on a BMW enthusiast forum, however, immediately reaches a large number of BMW owners or prospective owners, and is then read by more general auto enthusiasts as the news spreads across the net.

Still, nothing has quite the impact of a full-page spread in the Times or Post or what-have-you. If you really feel wronged by these guys, you may want to consider it. You might not get anything for yourself...but once hopes that other dealers would at least wake up and think about the ad when one of their valets crashes a car.

car_for_mom

01-05-2004, 12:21 PM

Reading through the replies, I was reminded of an incident I witnessed at a Chevrolet dealer in Riverside, CA - a good friend of mine needed to take his 'Vette in for service and leave it, so I followed him in my car to give him a ride back to his place.

My friend and I were standing on the Service Patio (this place has all kinds of concrete pillars holding up the patio cover), when I saw a very young-looking employee, who was bringing a car (I think it was a 'Vette) out of one of the service bays, made too tight a turn, and hit one of the posts with the passenger side mirror. He immediately stopped, and the other service people converged on the scene - it looked like the mirror was broken, so they had to take the car back into the bay to replace it. I don't recall the owner of the car being on the scene, but they took care of the problem right away (I wonder if the owner was informed about the mishap when he picked the car up? ;) )

Jon S.

01-05-2004, 12:47 PM

CtrlAltDel

01-05-2004, 12:51 PM

I wouldn't delete it, at the very most close it...but people should be aware of what happened.

The HACK

01-05-2004, 12:53 PM

There are currently (2) 'guests' logged into this site, viewing this very
thread as a matter of fact - from the IP address of the dealer in question.
We now know that they've got the message...

I am tempted to delete this thread, or at least put a lid on it for the
time being.

Anyone care to comment on the "fair" thing to do?
I dunno. Unless "they" specifically contact the admins of this site, I wouldn't do a thing about it.

There's nothing liabel or slanderous in this thread. I can vouch for a majority of what Stuka said, and Raffi can vouch for the other. It happened. It's the truth. If they're afraid the matter would get published they should've done the right thing. :dunno:

Leave it.

Jetfire

01-05-2004, 12:54 PM

Leave the thread alone, unless things get abusive. No reason to close or delete anything IMO.

Stuka

01-05-2004, 01:18 PM

There are currently (2) 'guests' logged into this site, viewing this very
thread as a matter of fact - from the IP address of the dealer in question.
We now know that they've got the message...

I am tempted to delete this thread, or at least put a lid on it for the
time being.

Anyone care to comment on the "fair" thing to do?

Jon,

My post was gone over by Raffi, an Attorney at law licensed to practice in the state of CA, to make sure that it is legally sound, and contains only factual information. That is why I listed the time and date of conversations that took place.

Also, the content of the post had been copied and pasted to a few websites (instead of links) by other concerend bimmer owners as well. The genie is out of the bottle. :angel:

·clyde·

01-05-2004, 01:25 PM

There are currently (2) 'guests' logged into this site, viewing this very
thread as a matter of fact - from the IP address of the dealer in question.
We now know that they've got the message...

I am tempted to delete this thread, or at least put a lid on it for the
time being.

Anyone care to comment on the "fair" thing to do?
Jon, they are also free to post a response if they have a conflicting view of the situation for all to read. If the situation is as Stuka described it, it's their own mess, why protect them? If that's not the way things happened, they can tell us that.

Truly, closing or deleting this thread would run counter to the principals that bimmerfest.com was founded on...the open exchange of all things within the BMW community. I, for one, would be very dissapointed if that happened at this point.

car_for_mom

01-05-2004, 01:25 PM

Well, especially for a dealership that probably makes the majority of their income from service, not sales, I don't think Savage is "hurting" from BMW with-holding allocation for them. They're based out in Ontario, CA, and most of the cars in their service bay has license plate frames from dealerships in the area such as Riverside BMW, Irvine BMW, Crevier...etc. Their actual new car stock is pretty small. The only way BMW NA can rectify this situation is to revoke their Franchise Agreement. Probably another reason Peter Savage was reluctant to give Stuka a new M3 at his invoice price...I don't think they get that many M3 allocations to start with (but certainly they could easily trade a 545i allocation for another from an out of state dealer).

The blame here, I think, still lies squarely on Savage. They had an opportunity to do the right thing, they didn't. Personally I think taking an ad out in the local (Riverside, San Bernardino, north Orange County) newspapers may be the best way to educate local car owners about their lack of respect for other people's property left in their care.

HACK, you make a good point, here - my distinct impression regarding Bimmer buyers in the near Inland Empire is that most of them actually go to Crevier (I see more Crevier license plate frames on Bimmers in Chino/Chino Hills/Diamond Bar/Ontario/Upland/Corona, etc than from Savage or Riverside).

When I was shopping, I checked out Savage, but I was kind of turned off by the atmosphere and attitude towards manuals; I recently visited Riverside BMW, because I was in the area, and curious about them, since I'd been receiving mailers from them - I came away with a favorable impression. They're kind of small, like Savage, but there was a friendly, low-key atmosphere - they let me sit in the X3 and the 530 as long as I wanted, and didn't hassle me at all.

I bought from Crevier, because they had a manual available for a test drive (they don't always), and because Paul Mooradian was so low-key and non-pressuring; he was a pleasure to deal with (he was no Jon Shafer (but so few are)

Jon S.

01-05-2004, 01:48 PM

Jon,

My post was gone over by Raffi, an Attorney at law licensed to practice in the state of CA, to make sure that it is legally sound, and contains only factual information. That is why I listed the time and date of conversations that took place.

Also, the content of the post had been copied and pasted to a few websites (instead of links) by other concerend bimmer owners as well. The genie is out of the bottle. :angel:

Works for me....... :D

:str8pimpi

411bhp

01-05-2004, 04:39 PM

Someone sent me this thread at work and although I'm not a BMW fan, I'm really suprised that a BMW dealer would do that. I hope everyone who reads this steers clear of that place for sure.

Mike Kuriger
01 Audi S4 X chip
03 Durango 4x4
89 isuzu imark 411 hp
88 gmc jimmy
91 isuzu impulse rs

theslik1

01-05-2004, 04:59 PM

:tsk:

I'm new to these boards; I picked up the story on acura-tl.com and am appalled by the actions taken by the dealer in this case. In the interest of getting the word out, I've posted and linked this thread to the following forums:

www.dsmtalk.com
www.acuraworld.com
www.vtec.net
www.caranddriver.com (forums)
www.autoweek.com (forums)
www.motortrend.com (forums)

In addition, I emailed Savage BMW and informed them that they're about to become famous. :D

MR325iT

01-05-2004, 05:11 PM

most of them actually go to Crevier [/B]

:eek: Funny Crevier's name should come up in this thread - that's who messed up my hood back in November. Of course, reading Stuka's post really puts that incident in perspective.

Big credit to Stuka, man - you are really handling this well. Good luck.

SARAFIL

01-05-2004, 05:24 PM

I did, I gave them all 1's except for my SA, Eric Hall, who I gave 5 because he duly deserves it. :thumbup:

For the record: Your salesperson or service advisor (depending on whether it is a sales or service CSI call) is the directly affected by your answers to each question in the survey. In fact, while some of the questions asked may seem to reflect the dealership as a whole, or other people at the dealership, in reality they are focussed exclusively on that one particular person. In simple terms, all of the scores affect your service advisor's rating. If you gave any "1"s on the survey, you hurt him. ALL the scores effect him, not just the few questions that you think are about him. To a degree, they will also effect management and the dealership as a whole, but they will have a much, much larger impact on that one party. Lets say your service advisor gets 50 CSI scores per month. Lets also imagine said dealer has 4 service advisors. Now, the service department will get around 200 per month. Also, the overall dealership CSI is a blend of sales and service. Imagine that they also get 75 sales CSI scores per month. As you can clearly see, that one bad CSI score will have a MUCH larger impact on your friend Eric than the service manager, general manager or dealer principal.

Not that I am going to debate whether or not you should have given good or bad ratings. I just wanted to clarify the way the system works, in case anyone here misunderstood it.

scottn2retro

01-05-2004, 05:51 PM

What a nightmare. BTW, I think Stuka handled himself as well as could be expected - this incident happened quite some time ago and Savage was given more than enough time to do the right thing before a word of this was made public. I think it's good that BMW buyers/owners in the area are made aware of what to expect from that dealership should something like that happen to them.

I'm glad they're not on my car :)

thekubiaks

01-05-2004, 05:52 PM

This story is reason number 684 why I am not going to buy another BMW. I'm on my third and final Beamer (325i, 740i, and now 330i) and have continued to have problems with dealers in my region. I thought I'd be slick and pick up the 330i from dealer a few states away but he tried two "fast ones" on me that fortunately I caught. First one, (Wouldn't payoff my trade-in after I signed over the title, and (2) miscomputed the taxes on the invoice in hopes I wouldn't catch it until I went to register the car :mad: Then he could plead ignorance and say we agreed that I'd pay the taxes. Fortunately, I caught it. And every time, BMWNA said "Sorry, that is an independant dealer, we can't help. :mad: So, it's off to Mercedes AMG land or Porsche land for me....... :thumbdwn:

xspeedy

01-05-2004, 06:06 PM

Stuka,

Did the dealer allow you to keep the loaner during the whole ordeal? Or did they demand to have it back?

Personally, I would have refused to give it back considering you are out of transportation due to the dealer screw up.

doeboy

01-05-2004, 06:12 PM

01-05-2004, 07:37 PM

9,575 views in less than 36 hours!!!! :yikes: :yikes:

Parump

01-05-2004, 07:50 PM

I would like to complement Stuka regarding his restrained demeanor. He did not slander or malign Savage BMW. Instead, he recounted the facts and concluded his post with be wary of Savage BMW.

Jon raises a good point about independent franchises and the potential conflicts between local and central authority. In my opinion, the key issue is how to replace Stuka's car with a suitable automobile. With a limited supply of similar M3's, the likelihood of Savage BMW procuring a comparable car is low. Savage could have tried to locate a similar used car or offer a replacement acceptable to Stuka. If Savage made a reasonable attempt to compensate Stuka in this manner is unknown.

BMWNA should have offered to mediate by facilitating the delivery of a new M3 - expedited order, invoice pricing etc. I am sure that Savage BMW may have been reluctant to incur a financial penalty for their error.

Suggested remedy -

Savage BMW call Sutka and estimate the value of his new Porsche. Make him a reasonable offer and arrange a trade in for an M3. Just think of the free positive publicity that would be generated from this act of kindness. This is assuming that Stuka is interested in this type of offer . . .

Parump

01-05-2004, 07:53 PM

Sarafil -

What do you think would have been a fair remedy for Stuka's loss? What would have been the response of your BMW Center if faced with a similar circumstance? If you decline to offer a response, I understand.

For the record: Your salesperson or service advisor (depending on whether it is a sales or service CSI call) is the directly affected by your answers to each question in the survey. In fact, while some of the questions asked may seem to reflect the dealership as a whole, or other people at the dealership, in reality they are focussed exclusively on that one particular person. In simple terms, all of the scores affect your service advisor's rating. If you gave any "1"s on the survey, you hurt him. ALL the scores effect him, not just the few questions that you think are about him. To a degree, they will also effect management and the dealership as a whole, but they will have a much, much larger impact on that one party. Lets say your service advisor gets 50 CSI scores per month. Lets also imagine said dealer has 4 service advisors. Now, the service department will get around 200 per month. Also, the overall dealership CSI is a blend of sales and service. Imagine that they also get 75 sales CSI scores per month. As you can clearly see, that one bad CSI score will have a MUCH larger impact on your friend Eric than the service manager, general manager or dealer principal.

Not that I am going to debate whether or not you should have given good or bad ratings. I just wanted to clarify the way the system works, in case anyone here misunderstood it.

Stuka

01-05-2004, 08:05 PM

Some clarifications...

1. I got blue book retail value of the car.

2. I continued to make the $1013 monthly payments from 7/03 to 9/03.

3. I got a few grand to cover rental car cost while I look for a new car.

4. Savage BMW picked up the free loaner on 10/21/03, the M3 did not clear my credit report until 11/13/03.

I didn't want to post anything about this until I have the check for my car, and that the title is safely out of my hands, and my credit report entry closed, because, based on my experience with Savage, I was quite frankly, afraid that if I had gone public before then, that I would encounter issues with getting the check for my totaled M3. :(

Anyway, sometimes even crappy situation works out fine. I never thought that I could actually swing a Turbo until I started to look into the cost of it, and realized that I had better do it now while single, then wait another 10 years until I can get it after kids, mortgage, and what have you. :thumbup:

Just think, it all started when I was 15 with the 1:24 Tamiya PorkChop 959 model. :bigpimp:

Stuka

01-05-2004, 08:14 PM

Guys, thanks for the support. :grouphug:

I am curious though, where has this story travelled to? Any direct links?

mr-mstng

01-05-2004, 08:23 PM

Guys, thanks for the support. :grouphug:

I am curious though, where has this story travelled to? Any direct links?

Blue Oval News http://warnerrobert.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012708

SVT Performance http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73513

:)

SARAFIL

01-05-2004, 08:37 PM

Sarafil -

What do you think would have been a fair remedy for Stuka's loss? What would have been the response of your BMW Center if faced with a similar circumstance? If you decline to offer a response, I understand.

I don't want to make too many comments due to the fact that I don't know much about what actually occured. I would say that I would have no tolerance for the employee(s) responsible for this incident. That being said, I don't think I am qualified to say anything becasue I don't know the specifics about the damage to the <A TITLE="Click for more information about car" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||cars|AA1VDw">car</A>, the circumstances under which it was damaged, and the "numbers" concerning the replacement value of the M3.

However, I think I can say with certainty that I would do all in my power to solve the problem in a manner that would have ensured the customer's satisfaction, and see him in another BMW from our center.

Bwana

01-05-2004, 09:01 PM

Guys, thanks for the support. :grouphug:

I am curious though, where has this story travelled to? Any direct links?

Just registerted to say us Subaru owners are getting the message over at NASIOC.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=479300

I also just passed it on to an SVX board: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15429

Glad it worked out, but would have been much easer if nothing happened in the first place. :rolleyes: :dunno: :mad:

The HACK

01-05-2004, 09:22 PM

:yikes:

Bad news travels fast in the internet circle.

thompo

01-05-2004, 09:56 PM

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1179488

You've now been linked to 120,000 members of VWVortex. Nice work.

Parump

01-05-2004, 10:17 PM

According to Savage's website, they are a BMW Center of Excellence 2001 - 2003!

SoundQ SVT

01-05-2004, 10:50 PM

Guys, thanks for the support. :grouphug:

I am curious though, where has this story travelled to? Any direct links?

I saw it on the CarSound & Performance Magazine Forums... http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=002725

and posted it to the SVT Owners Association website... http://www.svtownersassociation.com/svtoaforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5831

All I can say is the dealer was wrong in their actions. It seems to have been so easy to remedy... but why didn't they?

TexRob

01-05-2004, 10:50 PM

This is just crazy. I was referred here by a friend at a major Honda S2K forum and have now posted it on my350z.com (20,000+ users) and a few other smaller forums.

First, this is so shocking because when you think of BMW, you think of service above and beyond what you generally even expect, at least I do. My father owned his own boat business in Houston for 30+ years and has recently moved back home to Virginia, and has started working at a BMW dealership. He loves it there so far. While visiting over Christmas I got the grand tour of the dealership, and if they weren't so busy, was going to check out some of the cars. I was very impressed with the whole setup, and the extra pampering and customer service they seemed to provide. So reading this is a huge shocker after just recently seeing that whole operation. I have sent him the link to this thread, and am curious what he will have to say about it, both from a now BMW salesman, and also from his perspective as an owner/dealer in the marine business for so long. Boats are a big ticket item, so I consider them pretty comparable from a business perspective, and of course the process and service is identical.

It has been stated that BMW NA won't take any action no matter how much pressure. That is sad for them, because it truly is their loss. I am a BMW fan, they make great automobiles, but for a company to not at least acknowledge something like this is ... shocking. Would this stop me from buying a BMW in the future? If I was torn between a BMW and another brand, you can't deny the lack of responisbility BMW obviously denies for it's dealers, so that's all I can say on that. If any auto company would take responsibility for a dealership, I would have thought BMW would be that company. I honestly thought that, more than any other brand, except maybe Ferrari or something very exotic where you would assume they hold their official dealers under a microscope.

Good luck with the Porsche, it's a beautiful car, and has the performance to match.

Rob Nance
Austin, TX

JT///M3

01-06-2004, 12:00 AM

sheesh! I can't believe they f'ed up your car like that and didn't even agree to replace it. I've always depised Savage BMW. They are in it purely for the money. I had my car repaired there at both Arrow Glen and Savage and they totally ripped off my insurance company. They didn't even fix my car right and I had to bring it back 3x. I probably know the guy who wrecked your car. The young skinny mexican kid, right? I wonder if they took my M3 out for a few joy rides. Bastards.

Sorry for your loss. I sadly can relate to your problems with Savage. I hope what goes around comes around to that dealer and they go broke. :thumbdwn:

vern

01-06-2004, 05:41 AM

For the record: Your salesperson or service advisor (depending on whether it is a sales or service CSI call) is the directly affected by your answers to each question in the survey. In fact, while some of the questions asked may seem to reflect the dealership as a whole, or other people at the dealership, in reality they are focussed exclusively on that one particular person. In simple terms, all of the scores affect your service advisor's rating. If you gave any "1"s on the survey, you hurt him. ALL the scores effect him, not just the few questions that you think are about him. To a degree, they will also effect management and the dealership as a whole, but they will have a much, much larger impact on that one party. Lets say your service advisor gets 50 CSI scores per month. Lets also imagine said dealer has 4 service advisors. Now, the service department will get around 200 per month. Also, the overall dealership CSI is a blend of sales and service. Imagine that they also get 75 sales CSI scores per month. As you can clearly see, that one bad CSI score will have a MUCH larger impact on your friend Eric than the service manager, general manager or dealer principal.

Not that I am going to debate whether or not you should have given good or bad ratings. I just wanted to clarify the way the system works, in case anyone here misunderstood it.
What good is the system if nobody corrects the problem when the Dealer,(or person), get a LOW score??????????
vern

car_for_mom

01-06-2004, 07:04 AM

There is a posting regarding your situation, Stuka, in the Pure Luxury forum at Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=45654&sessionID=66DEDCB086B942749550FD351B3362E1

Bimmerfest has always been about community, about folks helping each other and supporting each other, even giving constructive criticism! :thumbup:

WDC330i

01-06-2004, 07:05 AM

Until the evaluation system is anonymous, without possibility of reprisal, it is worthless.

Brashland

01-06-2004, 09:41 AM

I posted on a S2000 board, but for 'my' local chapter. They sometimes bump to the bigger boards.

turbo38sfi

01-06-2004, 10:16 AM

I never thought that I could actually swing a Turbo until I started to look into the cost of it,

I haven't gotten to the end yet, but, what is a turbo? What car did you actually get?

On all the Turbo Buick boards now too.

http://www.turbo6power.com/showthread.php?p=3437#post3437
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17593
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110188

Buff_AGM

01-06-2004, 10:23 AM

I should let the owner handle this but I'll give you a hint...twin turbo whale tail.

Andy

01-06-2004, 10:34 AM

I sent the following email to BMWNA Customer Relations (occomments@bmwusa.com). I would encourage you guys to do the same. Or you can reach them via telephone at 1-800-831-1117. If they get enough emails and phone calls about this, I guarantee we will see a change in customer service.
 

BMWNA Customer Relations,

You may want to take a look at this post on Bimmerfest.com. The BMW brand is getting dragged through the mud, viewed by car enthusiasts all over the internet because of what one of your dealerships did.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49291

At one time I thought I would be a BMW owner for life, however due to the customer service by your dealerships, I am now thinking otherwise.

My advise to BMWNA is to demand better customer service by your dealerships and hold them accountable!!

Please forward this email to management. I’m only taking the time to write you, because I love my 2003 BMW 330i. I will need to see the customer service at the dealerships drastically changed if I plan to buy another.

Sincerely,
Andy

BavarianWheels

01-06-2004, 11:13 AM

I've added this topic to a couple of my other forums also. One is a European Forum that has about 4000 members! It's in Spanish, but there are huge numbers on there constantly.

http://]http://www.bmwsport.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=888

http://www.bmwfaq.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=650167#650167

cronimi

01-06-2004, 11:25 AM

Amen, Andy! The laissez-faire attitude of BMWNA is disconcerting and, IMO, somewhat inaccurate. Although dealers are independent (i.e., not owned by BMWNA), dealers are subject to franchising agreements. Therefore, although BMWNA cannot directly control the dealers' actions, I have to believe that the franchising agreements set certain parameters for customer service. All of the franchise agreements I've read (although none in the automotive field) set rather high standards to which the licensee/franchisee must adhere. And if we extend BMWNA's position to its illogical extreme, would they really stand for a dealer which repeatedly broke customers' headlights to increase business for its parts/service departments?

BMWNA could/should have gone back to Savage (a fitting name for the dealership) to "urge" they take care of Stuka satisfactorily and to ensure it doesn't happen again. And I for one would want BMWNA customer service to tell me that they will be contacting the dealership to try to prevent the issue from happening in the future.

It's one thing to know that you've been :spank:'ed, it's another to know that the :spank:'ing of customers will continue unfettered.

Motown328

01-06-2004, 11:40 AM

Man, this is wunderbar, eh?! :p Just to think the power of the wee man after one of his noble kin has been cheated. This story has now gone international to well over tens-of-thousands of car people all because of this forum. Maybe Savage will even find themselves on the nightly news' "Problem Solvers" or locally-affiliated consumer watchdog segments. It's rather unfortunate for BMWNA, but I sure hope they are monitoring this situation nonetheless because what Stuka had to put up with is unacceptable even for a junkyard dealership.

The HACK

01-06-2004, 12:23 PM

I should let the owner handle this but I'll give you a hint...twin turbo whale tail.
The 996 TT does not have the whale tail.

Buff_AGM

01-06-2004, 01:23 PM

Yeah I know, but I've always thought of all 911 turbos as whale tails, calling it an 03 "whale tail" mightve been a better hint. Anyway, you gave it away!

car_for_mom

01-06-2004, 01:28 PM

I emailed the following to Savage BMW:

I live in Chino Hills, as you can see from my address; I'm currently having my 2003 BMW serviced at the dealer I bought it from, Crevier BMW in Santa Ana; I considered seeking service closer to where I live (namely, Savage BMW), but after the nightmare experience of an M3 customer as posted on bimmerfest.com; I dare not entrust my 325i, humble as it is, to your dealership, nor consider Savage BMW when purchasing my next car!

I emailed the following to the BMW Customer Comments address previously mentioned:

I've sent the following email to the Savage BMW dealership in Ontario, CA; even though it is closer to where I live, after the horrible experience of a customer whose M3 was wrecked by an irresponsible employee, I cannot even think of taking my 2003 325i there!

BMW is too excellent a car to be tarnished and besmirched by such a thing as happened; I urge BMWNA, even BMW Corporate Headquarters to get involved and do some service recovery - this customer should be flown to Munich, all-expenses paid, and given a brand-new M3 - the good will shown by such an action would reap rich, rich rewards for BMW!

I live in Chino Hills, as you can see from my address; I'm currently having my 2003 BMW serviced at the dealer I bought it from, Crevier BMW in Santa Ana; I considered seeking service closer to where I live (namely, Savage BMW), but after the nightmare experience of an M3 customer as posted on bimmerfest.com; I dare not entrust my 325i, humble as it is, to your dealership, nor consider Savage BMW when purchasing my next car!

gray330

01-06-2004, 01:31 PM

I think Savage BMW just lost a whole of customers and potential customers! :p

shragon

01-06-2004, 01:57 PM

followed a link over here from bf.c.

crazy story.

f savage bmw. you were being very reasonable.

scottn2retro

01-06-2004, 01:57 PM

[/I]

Off Topic, but car_for_mom, could you check you Private Messages (it's a good thing) :)

car_for_mom

01-06-2004, 02:13 PM

Off Topic, but car_for_mom, could you check you Private Messages (it's a good thing) :)

Just sent you a reply... :thumbup:

nester

01-06-2004, 04:26 PM

Found on NASIOC,

Now posted on 502StreetScene.net's board.

Sorry to hear about you car. :(

FireFly

01-06-2004, 04:52 PM

Parump

01-06-2004, 06:08 PM

I am curious how Savage BMW earned a center of excellence in 2003 when this mishap occurred. Are the Centers of Excellence awarded for the prior year? Since Stuka had contacted BMWNA, they had notice of the problem. This is really tragic!According to Savage's website, they are a BMW Center of Excellence 2001 - 2003!

xspeedy

01-06-2004, 06:21 PM

I am curious how Savage BMW earned a center of excellence in 2003 when this mishap occurred. Are the Centers of Excellence awarded for the prior year? Since Stuka had contacted BMWNA, they had notice of the problem. This is really tragic!

Probably based on number of units sold. That is all BMW really cares about, right? Customer satisfaction does not seem to be of interest.

Parump

01-06-2004, 06:31 PM

http://www.savagebmw.com/frameset_center.htm

swchang

01-06-2004, 06:33 PM

BMW of North America recognizes
SavageBMW

The Center of Excellence Award is BMW's highest honor for client satisfaction with all aspects of the center's operations, as evaluated by the clients.

A BMW Center of Excellence reflects the dedication of the entire team to providing an extraordinary level of client care and BMW excitement.

SavageBMW is among the Top 30 Dealers (out of 355 dealers nationally)

#1 in Southern California in CSI (Customer Satisfaction Index)

2001 | 2002 | 2003
dedicated teamwork | outstanding service | excellent client care

Anyone wanna take bets on what their rank is next year? :rofl:

BradATL

01-06-2004, 06:38 PM

Stuka: I am horrified by what happened to you. I think your proposed solution (buy back your car at retail, and sell you a new M3 at invoice) was VERY reasonable on your part. If I were Savage, I would have said "yes" to that on the spot. Given all the adverse publicity that Savage is now suffering, I bet he regrets it now. Penny wise and pound foolish. I will tell everone I know in the So Cal area to stay away from Savage.

I just linked this thread over to my friends at m3forums.com

94-T88

01-06-2004, 06:38 PM

As a owner of several very high horse power Supra's, I have come to a point in my life were I do not want a car like my supra. I have been looking and thinking about the M5, but after I read this post, it will be a cold day in hell if I buy a M5. My other choice is a Lexus GS400, and after seeing the pictures and specs of the 2006 Gs430 I am now almost 100% sure that will be my next new car to buy.

theslik1

01-06-2004, 07:04 PM

Stuka- sorry to hear about the debacle. What a freakin mess!

It's impossible for me to comment on what I think is fair because I am not in your shoes but I do agree that you got the shaft and have been treated sub-piss-poor.

Even though BMW does not own the dealership, they are responsible for allowing dealers to get away with this kind of behavior with little to no recourse. BMW service (not all dealers) is terrible.

I hope your story changes the way BMW operates so we can all gain from better service.

I have posted this link to the nations leading boating site. Like us driving enthusiasts who take pride in our cars, The Hull Truth (www.thehulltruth) members take pride in their boats. Some have had dealers take their boat out unauthorized, none have had a mishap like you have experienced. I believe you need a login name and password to eneter the site but I assure you it will be read by thousands of people.

I am anxious to see what non-biased (non bmw owners) think of your story. I am certain most/all will be on your side and wish you the best of luck.

With you.
FireFly

I can assure you that tens of thousands of non-BMW owners including myself are on Stuka's side. No matter what you may think of Bimmers (personally I like 'em), this is an incident that gets the attention of any automotive consumer and cuts across marque. I'm seeing substantial support on the Honda/Acura forums I subscribe to, and the word is spreading.

On a side note, has anyone here contacted Savage BMW, and did you get a response? I contacted them via their web page but haven't gotten a reply...not that I expect one. :tsk:

m3mitsmg

01-06-2004, 07:34 PM

From 1971 to 2001 I was a part owner and full time operator of a very successful BMW dealership in SoCal. Under the circumstances, I think your request was most reasonable, you would have gotten no argument out of me. You didn’t ask for a new car but acknowledged that it was used and had miles on it. And using the analogy of their service loaners! Your car was not intended for other people’s personal use, the service loaners are. That’s way they are called loaners!

1RADBMR

01-06-2004, 08:35 PM

There are currently (2) 'guests' logged into this site, viewing this very
thread as a matter of fact - from the IP address of the dealer in question.
We now know that they've got the message...

I am tempted to delete this thread, or at least put a lid on it for the
time being.

Anyone care to comment on the "fair" thing to do?

Jon,
I'm flabergasted! Would you really delete a thread that BMW or any particular dealer would/will find controversial? That doesn't sound like you. Your instincts, it seems to me, have been impecable to date. I can't believe you would delete a thread (particularly one that seems honest and honestly motivated), because a particular BMW dealer's commercial interests might be at stake. Say it ain't so! I don't want to have to go find yet another BMW Enthusiast site that believes in Truth, Justice, and the American Way. There aren't many left! All's well that ends well...I guess. But I can't help wondering what you were thinking when you posted this.
Cheers,
Herb

clumpymold

01-06-2004, 09:15 PM

Wow, I don't know what to say. I'll just be sure to steer clear (VERY clear) from Savage BMW.

You were totally NOT unreasonable for asking what you asked. That's totally ridiculous that you even had to go through all this for THEIR mistake. Unreal what some people do. There should be some sort of petition to shut this dealership down!!!

Jon S.

01-06-2004, 09:17 PM

Jon,
I'm flabergasted! Would you really delete a thread that BMW or any particular dealer would/will find controversial? That doesn't sound like you. Your instincts, it seems to me, have been impecable to date. I can't believe you would delete a thread (particularly one that seems honest and honestly motivated), because a particular BMW dealer's commercial interests might be at stake. Say it ain't so! I don't want to have to go find yet another BMW Enthusiast site that believes in Truth, Justice, and the American Way. There aren't many left! All's well that ends well...I guess. But I can't help wondering what you were thinking when you posted this.
Cheers,
Herb
Psssst Herb!!

I wasn't serious...
:)

JT///M3

01-06-2004, 09:24 PM

I think some one should begin a Black List consisting of the worst of the worst BMW dealers so everyone can stay away from them. Lets make these guys pay for their arrogance.

BMW dealer Black List:

1. Savage BMW, Ontario, CA

The HACK

01-06-2004, 11:55 PM

Well, I hate to buck the trend here...

But Savage crashing Stuka's M3 was actually a blessing in desguise. Stuka ended up with the car of his dreams (996 TT), he's actually paying LESS per month (car payment is about the same, less insurance, gas about the same, and he gets to write part of the TT payment off where as the M3 he didn't), he's actually got two cars now (the 996 TT and a wonderful beater, the E30 325i) and I think he's happier than ever.

Doesn't change the fact that what Savage did was dispicable. But I think Stuka is happier than ever judging from the Sh*t Eatin' Grin he has when we drove out of that Porsche dealership. :thumbup:

So there, BMW NA. It took Savage's callous act to drive a valuable customer from you to your German competitor, Porsche, and make Stuka see the light. Let's just hope Savage don't manage to crash more customer's M3s, eh? Otherwise you'd lose all your business to Porsche, who actually took excellent care of their customers.

swchang

01-07-2004, 12:56 AM

TLC_FZJ80

01-07-2004, 02:05 AM

Congrats Stuka :beerchug:

Back in the day, in Business School...we had an adage... "A positive customer service experience is relayed, on average, to 1 other person. While a negative customer service experience is relayed to an average of 10 people".

Stuka's experience as well as the numerous others show that the adage should be revised to "a positive dealer experience gets read by several dozen ppl on 1 Car Enthusiast Forum...a negative dealer experience gets read by n* of ppl on several dozen forums".

Maybe :thumbdwn: Mr. Savage :thumbdwn: needs a refresher course in Customer Service 101...although I think this experience might serve as a sufficient accelerated course.

JST

01-07-2004, 05:02 AM

From c. 11 PM last night to 8 AM this morning, this thread went from 19K to 21K views. 2,000 views in one night. Damn.

Spiderm0n

01-07-2004, 06:29 AM

An amazing story, and this this thread really shows the power of the internet. I hope Savage BMW and BMW NA have learned a lesson here.

bajjer9

01-07-2004, 07:54 AM

Hello all, I come to you from the honda CBR1100XX user board. I will not likely EVER be able to afford a new car, whether it be a chevrolet or a bmw, but if i HAD the money something like this would definately influence my decision...especially if i were thinking of a bmw...the sad part i think is if stuka didnt know anything about cars or if he didnt know a lawyer savage would have reemed him...good luck with the turbo stuka...i will stick to my 180+mph motorcycle...cheers :D

01-07-2004, 08:38 AM

If my math is correct, this thread is adding a new view every 10.4 seconds, really stepping on the gas and closing in on Alee. :D

EdCT

01-07-2004, 08:52 AM

The HACK

01-07-2004, 08:58 AM

I'm playing devil's advocate.

Of course, the members here are all siding with Stuka.

But remember folks, there's another side to the story.

I sure hope Stuka's account is accurate and Savage takes a beating.

But if Stuka's been less than honest with us; a dealership is sure taking a beating.

The "power" of the internet can be great or it can be bad news...

Frankly, if I were Jon I wouldn't allow this thread to continue unless I knew for certain Stuka's allegations were 100% accurate.

Ed
I know everyone has their doubts...

I can vouch for Stuka's story. Raffi can vouch for Stuka's story. I can assure you everything in the post is factual. I know Stuka would've never posted this if his lawyer isn't 100% certain that everything said here is true and that they will not be liabel.

I know that's not nearly enough to convince everyone. But if Savage BMW wants a rebutal, they're free to sign up and post. :dunno:

doeboy

01-07-2004, 09:02 AM

But remember folks, there's another side to the story.

I sure hope Stuka's account is accurate and Savage takes a beating.

But if Stuka's been less than honest with us; a dealership is sure taking a beating.

The "power" of the internet can be great or it can be bad news...

Frankly, if I were Jon I wouldn't allow this thread to continue unless I knew for certain Stuka's allegations were 100% accurate.

Ed

I believe it was previously mentioned that the original post is legally sound. I for one as do many others, believe this is the truth. Don't do anything to this thread.

If Savage feels that they'd like to make their side known, have them post a rebuttal. Otherwise, just let it run its course...

Emission

01-07-2004, 09:05 AM

I know everyone has their doubts...

I can vouch for Stuka's story. Raffi can vouch for Stuka's story. I can assure you everything in the post is factual. I know Stuka would've never posted this if his lawyer isn't 100% certain that everything said here is true and that they will not be liabel.

I know that's not nearly enough to convince everyone. But if Savage BMW wants a rebutal, they're free to sign up and post. :dunno:

I'll vouch for these guys too. I met with Stuka and Raffi several times after the incident, and they never mentioned it. It was all kept very quiet until Savage had more than enough time to make it right. They didn't ever take the approach to "take it public" before all involved parties had the opportunity to work things out.

berford

01-07-2004, 09:27 AM

Sorry I'm late to the party and sorry about the bad luck.

I'm just wondering, though, if the test driver/joy rider used Armour All on all tire surfaces before he took the car out. I've heard it look hella good, especially on the IS300. Could splain a lot. :dunno:

Spktyr

01-07-2004, 09:46 AM

Posted this to my Jaguar board (http://www.jagsource.org/) - noticed it's got a nice following over on the Car And Driver forums.

By the way, it's worth noting that the number on the Savage BMW website *DOES NOT WORK* outside of California. In Dallas, that number gets a local Isuzu dealer - they're good folks, please don't harass them (their reaction when I told them the story was "Wow. We would have just given him another car. Hope he has a good lawyer."), and I don't know what (800) 510-7480 goes to in other parts of the country. In addition, the number I got from Switchboard for Savage BMW [(909) 983-0587] is not in service.

Anyway, I just wanted to know - does anyone know if Savage BMW is part of a conglomerate of dealers? I'd hate to give the owner, be it a person or corporation, any money.

Oh, and my dad (who lives near Ontario, CA) tells me that he was going to buy a 545i and that Savage was on his list of dealers. Operative word, was.

dredmo

01-07-2004, 09:47 AM

Sorry to hear this Stuka.

Hack, you sure are good at keeping secrets.

Anyways, I too will write an e-mail to Savage.

I know with 100% certainty that this story is true because I know you guys would not lie to the community.

Living in California, and having family all over, I often wind up at other dealerships if not for repair, then to just look around.

My last time in Sacramento (last weekend), my Air-Flow controller (or something like that) failed and I visited a dealer there.

For anyone who lives in that area, or even travels there, this should be a reminder to never take your car there.

I am quite certain they will take steps to ensure this does not happen again. However, their duplicity while dealing with you on a human level; and their insidiousness is despicable. I can not fathom how a company who treats their valued customers like this, especially the enthusiasts (because we are the most likely to bring in word-of-mouth business), can function in a competitive world.

Shame on them.

berford

01-07-2004, 09:52 AM

... duplicity while dealing with you on a human level; and their insidiousness is despicable.... Shame on them.

Well put, Dan. Good descriptors.

sonofsnood

01-07-2004, 10:51 AM

Followed this story from Fresh Alloy (http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB7&Number=67641634&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1), a Nissan/Infiniti site

car_for_mom

01-07-2004, 11:57 AM

Hmm...just dropped Karl Bimmer off at Crevier for Inspection I.

However: I finally got the title today when I dropped the car off- it turned out it was at Crevier all the time (I paid the car off last May, and the DMV never told anyone (including themselves) :rolleyes: Crevier's DMV person was so relieved to have solved the mystery!.

And - I got a 530i as a loaner; usually I get the little 325i wagon - maybe somebody in Santa Ana has been reading this thread? I have a feeling that Karl will be taken very good care of!

Stuka - any Porsche Pictures? :thumbup:

01-07-2004, 11:59 AM

Stuka - any Porsche Pictures? :thumbup:

Good question! Let us see the beast..........

doeboy

01-07-2004, 02:30 PM

Here's a few I took with my cruddy camera phone. :p

01-07-2004, 02:32 PM

Here's a few I took with my cruddy camera phone. :p

:bow:

Thanks...what is the window sticker on one of those bad boys?

doeboy

01-07-2004, 02:34 PM

:bow:

Thanks...what is the window sticker on one of those bad boys?

Way more than I could afford. :D And probably at least 3 times my wittle bitty 330's window sticker. I don't remember how much one of those costs exactly though.

Cliff

01-07-2004, 02:46 PM

Here's a few I took with my cruddy camera phone. :p
Dang, that camera moires like crazy, even on those very large engine louvers.

(We went on a BayBimmerz drive out to the coast last summer and a 996 TT tagged along. My God, what a beast :thumbup: )

94-T88

01-07-2004, 03:37 PM

Don't BMW dealerships sell Mini's too? If so check out this link:

http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB34&Number=3497100&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Parump

01-07-2004, 06:37 PM

What amazes me is Mr. Savage's apparent indifference to this event. Given the statements written on his website about customer service, I would expect for him to contact Stuka, offer an apology, and inquire about possibilities for resolving the problem. Granted, Stuka has purchased another car and could reply that he is not interested in possible trades. But, in my opinion, if Mr. Savage wishes to be honorable and uphold the tenets of his website, a telephone call and apology are long overdue.

1RADBMR

01-07-2004, 07:52 PM

Psssst Herb!!

I wasn't serious...
:)

Sorry Jon. I probably should have figured that out on my own. Have I mentioned lately that this is a great forum about a great car? :D

jgrgnt

01-07-2004, 08:45 PM

Unbelievable! Well, Savage has been crossed off my list of potential sales/service centers.

Enjoy the Porsche, Stuka!

clumpymold

01-07-2004, 08:53 PM

Don't BMW dealerships sell Mini's too? If so check out this link:

http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB34&Number=3497100&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
Link no workie. :(

EdCT

01-07-2004, 09:06 PM

I'll vouch for these guys too. I met with Stuka and Raffi several times after the incident, and they never mentioned it. It was all kept very quiet until Savage had more than enough time to make it right. They didn't ever take the approach to "take it public" before all involved parties had the opportunity to work things out.

My concern has little to do with Stuka personally ( I don't know him) but a lot to do with how quickly this thing has spread on essentially what is someone's word and more than a little resentment, i think, for dealerships in general ( I can't believe I'm defending these guys; whom I've referred to as "the last bastion of american hucksterism").

After all, most of us have no knowledge of any members here aside from what is posted.

This is a web-wide phenomenon and it's dangerous.

Ed

clumpymold

01-07-2004, 09:25 PM

Okay, has Stuka chimed in lately to confirm all of this? I would like to hear his comments/thoughts on this.

Jon S.

01-07-2004, 09:33 PM

Well, we know for certain that BMWNA has read this thread here...

The Internet is a powerful thing.