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psa
12-05-2010, 06:21 PM
I'm pretty sure my thermostat has failed in the open position...

It was 30F out side...started the car, drove for about 10 minutes and noticed the temp gauge was "pegged" in the red. Pulled over, turned the car off... popped the hood and the the engine was not overheating...got back in started the car and the temp gauge was barely past the "blue" mark. So I went ahead and drove home, about 30 miles....temp gauge never got past the "blue" mark.

No codes came up either...

The thermostat is a easy DIY but I have seen so many posts that warn about things that can go wrong when dealing with the cooling system.

Any suggestions..??

2002 530i with 66K on the clock.

Fudman
12-05-2010, 06:57 PM
I don't believe a failing thermostat will throw a code because it is not an electrical system and does not perform a pollution control function. Mileage wise, your car is relatively young (My 02 has 82K and I am planning my cooling system overhaul for the spring). While a complete cooling system overhaul is recommended for an 8 year old car, you can probably wait a few months based on your mileage. I would change the thermostat ASAP and wait until spring for the rest of the cooling system.

psa
12-05-2010, 08:55 PM
The Service Manual started "If faulty thermostat is suspected use appropriate scan tool to interrogate ECM for stored fault code"

Anyway.....Is there a "thermostat kit" that I should get from the dealer...?...I see I should replace the "sealing gasket" too...

nyclad
12-05-2010, 09:09 PM
A year ago, my old thermostat (since replaced) tended to get stuck open and read cooler than normal. It would occasionally throw the P0128 code. (Coolant Temperature Below Thermostat Regulating Temperature)

When it was stuck open, I'd make the entire 13 mile drive to work, and the temperature hadn't gotten past 55-60 degrees C (I checked using the unlocked cluster)

When I replaced the thermostat, the temperature would reach operating temperature in about 3 miles.

The main thing that can go wrong when dealing with the coolant system is leaving air bubbles in the system. That can cause the temperature gauge to show that the cooling system is overheating.

bluebee
12-05-2010, 09:20 PM
I'm pretty sure my thermostat has failed in the open position...

How do you reckon that?

I'm not saying it didn't fail, because I don't know how to test a thermostat while it's still in the vehicle. The "old" way to test a thermostat in situ was, IIRC, to start a cold engine with the radiator cap off or your hands on the upper hose; and then look, listen, and feel for fluid to start flowing when the engine warms up.

Of course, we all know the stove top method of testing a thermostat in vitro.

Other than that, if anything, a car overheating, if it's due to the thermostat at all, would be due to the thermostat stuck "closed", not "open", IMHO. But, maybe I'm wrong.



noticed the temp gauge was "pegged" in the red.

If you have a "high" cluster, you can easily read the temperature in degrees.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=240896&stc=1&d=1280896203

popped the hood and the the engine was not overheating

You guys are so much better than I am. How on earth would you know the temperature of the engine block from just popping the hood open?

And, why would you trust that "feel" rather than the actual temperature as measured by the engine's own electronics?

See:
- What is the coolant temperature of an E39 (I6 or V8) under normal operating condition (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432457)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=254849&d=1289912542
The thermostat is a easy DIY but I have seen so many posts that warn about things that can go wrong when dealing with the cooling system.

No you haven't.

Seriously. What you've seen are cooling systems that needed to be overhauled in toto - and anyone trying a piecemeal approach (such as you are suggesting), is just asking for trouble.

Any suggestions..

Sure. (All this is in the bestlinks stickie):
0. Immediately stockpile the entire cooling system & counterhold tool set!
1. Unlock your instrument cluster and watch temperature readings now
2. If anomalies occur, check the cooling system level & bleed accordingly
3. If anomalies still occur, install your stockpile of parts in step 0 above.
Note: You might as well also stockpile the belt-drive parts too.

2002 530i with 66K on the clock.

I stockpiled my cooling system overhaul parts from Oembimmerparts in about August, and in November, the 2002 525i developed a leak at 91K miles.

I would change the thermostat ASAP and wait until spring for the rest of the cooling system.

First off, how do we know it's the thermostat?

I haven't seen anything that diagnoses that in his words above other than his assumption it's the thermostat. A lot of people throw parts at a problem (and that's exactly what we recommend in most cases, i.e., an entire overhaul). But nothing he has said tells me it's anything specific, yet.

BTW, I understand the misery of changing anything in winter ... but I would still recommend purchasing all the parts NOW even if all he changes now is the thermostat (because the rest of the parts will fail suddenly).

Interestingly, if he does stockpile all the parts, and if he does decide it's the thermostat that needs replacement, then he'll likely replace a few of the parts anyway, since he'll have them in his hands and they have to go back in. Might as well put the new ones in.

Plus, if he even looks askance at the radiator nipple, at the expansion tank nipple, the bleed screw, or the lower hose temperature sensor, he WILL break something ... So, he's gonna need the spares handy anyway (ask me how I know about the expansion tank nipple breaking (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501999), ask me how I know about the bleed screw breaking (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5367117&postcount=124), ask me how I know about the temperature sensor o-ring leaking (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5373556&postcount=4), ask me how I know about the radiator nipple breaking (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=474042), oh, and ask me how I know about putting the fan clutch back on crooked (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5360662&postcount=1) while you're at it!).


:)

mujjuman
12-05-2010, 10:22 PM
I agree, you will eventually need to replace the entire cooling system so buy all the parts now so you have them in stock for the future.

I would bleed the system to see if that works first.... Then check the t-stat

AnotherGeezer
12-06-2010, 07:45 AM
I don't believe a failing thermostat will throw a code because it is not an electrical system and does not perform a pollution control function.

In my car it does.

I don't know about "doing it yourself" but I would consider "doing it soon-rather-than-later"

My car exhibited all kinds of bad behavior when my electronic t-stat failed.

psa
12-06-2010, 08:12 AM
I plan to take it into my local Indy on Wed...I'll see what he thinks....luckily my Indy is strictly a BMW, Benz and Audi repair....

doru
12-06-2010, 08:44 AM
A faulty thermostat will store a code. A BMW "approved" scan tool will read it. I am at my 3d thermostat in the last 4 years. It's a known issue with the electronically controlled t-stats for the M54 engines. I am not throwing out hearsay - this happened to me and the dealer aknowledged it (including the stored code - I have it black on white on 2 different statements).

bluebee
12-06-2010, 09:08 AM
It's a known issue with the electronically controlled t-stats for the M54 engines.

I have my old Behr M54 electronically controlled thermostat in my hands.

Is there something I can do to it to autopsy it to test how/if it was working?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=257335&stc=1&d=1291655303

Fudman
12-06-2010, 09:33 AM
[QUOTE=Fudman;5674421]I don't believe a failing thermostat will throw a code [QUOTE]

Ooops! Looks like I was wrong. :thumbdwn: Always verify anything you read on the internet! :)

cn90
12-06-2010, 09:41 AM
Yeah,

Replace the Thermostat. Then do cooling overhaul at 80K or so.

PM Mark@EACTuning.com (he is a forum member), he is in Indiana too and knows the E39 very well.

doru
12-06-2010, 09:52 AM
I have my old Behr M54 electronically controlled thermostat in my hands.

Is there something I can do to it to autopsy it to test how/if it was working?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=257335&stc=1&d=1291655303

I am not sure, but here is what I think it's going wrong with them.
I believe the electronics were designed for the 105C temperature (or so). It probably can withstand some higher temps, but you know the temperature fluctuates as high as 120C if I am not mistaken. This happens in stop-and-go traffic, when cooling is at it's most inefficient cycle, stressing the hell out of the electronic regulator incorporated in the thermostat. Once it's "abused" like that it will fail in the "stuck open" position. I believe it is designed to fail like this as opposed to stuck close. All this is speculation though - only what I think happens with these specific units. At the dealership they told me they know about this issue and that it's a very common failur of the M54 thermostats. My conclusion is the thermostat was designed to work at around 105C or so, but not for a sustained 120 temp cycle which happens in the city. Folks who have a long freeway commute don't experience this accelerated failure rate.

sidneyj
12-06-2010, 10:10 AM
Mine threw a code when it went bad!

bluebee
12-06-2010, 10:51 AM
temperature fluctuates as high as 120C if I am not mistaken.

I don't often unlock my cluster to check, but I reported my numbers before and they're no where near 120C/250F.

They're more like roughly 89C to 97C (~190F to 205F).
- What is the temperature of the coolant & when the thermostat opens under normal conditions (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432457))

That doesn't mean 120C/250F doesn't happen - just means that's shockingly high (for an I6 anyway) - so weird things might happen at that temperature, I agree.

it will fail in the "stuck open" position.

We could test that, I guess. Right?

For example, if I boiled my thermostat in a pot of water, wouldn't it open at its set point of around 200F?

Also, couldn't I simply apply 12 volts to the electrical connector to force the thermostat to open?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=217802&stc=1&d=1265777332

DNSinSC
12-06-2010, 10:57 AM
The Service Engine Light came on in our car and I used a Peake Research tool to check it. It was "Thermostat stuck open". Luckily we had already ordered the parts to overhaul the cooling system anyway so it was great timing. Really it is a pretty easy job.

psa
12-06-2010, 11:22 AM
The Service Engine Light came on in our car and I used a Peake Research tool to check it. It was "Thermostat stuck open". Luckily we had already ordered the parts to overhaul the cooling system anyway so it was great timing. Really it is a pretty easy job.

can someone provide a list of the parts needed to overhaul the cooling system...?...I'll pre-order so when the time comes I'll also be ready....

doru
12-06-2010, 11:54 AM
can someone provide a list of the parts needed to overhaul the cooling system...?...I'll pre-order so when the time comes I'll also be ready....
Donna has a great post with all the info you need here (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473373)
I don't often unlock my cluster to check, but I reported my numbers before and they're no where near 120C/250F.

They're more like roughly 89C to 97C (~190F to 205F).
- What is the temperature of the coolant & when the thermostat opens under normal conditions (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432457))

That doesn't mean 120C/250F doesn't happen - just means that's shockingly high (for an I6 anyway) - so weird things might happen at that temperature, I agree.



We could test that, I guess. Right?

For example, if I boiled my thermostat in a pot of water, wouldn't it open at its set point of around 200F?

Also, couldn't I simply apply 12 volts to the electrical connector to force the thermostat to open?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=217802&stc=1&d=1265777332

The high temps are probably short bursts, but when you idle, the fan is on almost all the time, so these short bursts are very frequent.
At 89-97C, does the coolant boil? I am not sure about this. If yes, I am wrong. I know one of the functions of the coolant is to lower the freezing point and to increase the boiling point. As such, the boiling point of a 50/50 mixture is 106C or 223F. I know I played with my cooling system a bit and the coolant was boiling - I had to shut the engine off to minimze the spew. That means my coolant was past the 106C.

On another note, a mechanical t-stat will open close with temperature.
The OEM t-stat is electronically controlled - meaning once the temp crosses a certain mark, an electronic signal is sent from the ECU to operate (open/close) the t-stat. You will need some sort of a multimeter, and then figure out what voltage is sent to the electronic module in the t-stat to operate it. This I don't know.


P.S. Here is a reference (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system3.htm)

AnotherGeezer
12-06-2010, 11:57 AM
I have my old Behr M54 electronically controlled thermostat in my hands.

Is there something I can do to it to autopsy it to test how/if it was working?

You could shoot it and put it out of its misery. :D

bluebee
12-06-2010, 01:07 PM
I'm thinking for the thermostat, we could give it 5 volts or 12 volts and see if it opens. I'd have to look up the specs for how it operates.

I could also boil it to see if it opens but I'm not sure how to keep the electronics part dry during that process so it doesn't corrupt the experiment.

For the coolant temperature sensor, I'm thinking boiling in the hose (to keep it from the bottom of the pot) will work for that too, only I guess I'd measure resistance.

What do you think?
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=257359&stc=1&d=1291669629

AnotherGeezer
12-06-2010, 01:12 PM
I think you have too much time on your hands. ;)

doru
12-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Donna, I think that the electronic part does not hold up to the temperature. I am not sure how to test it. The idea is great "if" you could pinpoint the failed component, so as to replace it on a brand-new unit before you swap it out (not on an old one). I was seriously contemplating changing mine with a mechanical one from Zionsville (this one (http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/store/screen/prod/store_code/6134/product_code/M54CTPK.htm)). The problem is, it's not hooked up and you will have a stored code for a failed thermostat, and the biggest is I don't know how it will fail (open or close). The crappy OEM ones fail in the open position, which is not too bad. Both times I picked it up by monitoring my gas economy, which went down, and the stealership confirmed the t-stat was the culprit (car under warranty).
Now saying that, the Zions unit opens at 90C, which is mch lower than the BMW OEM setting for optimal engine temp. So that would be a 3d question mark.
I might go this route though. Still debating with myself. I have the 3 gallons of NPG+ and all other cooling componenets minus 2 tensioners.

P.S.: so just cut it open and check the electronics inside the housing. That's it

bluebee
12-08-2010, 06:17 AM
I am not sure how to test it.

Here's some good thermostat test information (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5588165&postcount=4) from Rajaie (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504261) himself:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=257551&stc=1&d=1291817831

psa
12-10-2010, 09:34 PM
confirmed...it was the thermostat......265.00...parts and labor...all fixed...:)

doru
12-10-2010, 09:54 PM
confirmed...it was the thermostat......265.00...parts and labor...all fixed...:)

Yeah, I'm glad you fixed it. If it could last only for more than 2 years....
If not you might want to give the Zions unit a whirl... I'm thinking really hard about it.

gtxragtop
12-11-2010, 04:00 AM
I am not sure, but here is what I think it's going wrong with them.
I believe the electronics were designed for the 105C temperature (or so). It probably can withstand some higher temps, but you know the temperature fluctuates as high as 120C if I am not mistaken. This happens in stop-and-go traffic, when cooling is at it's most inefficient cycle, stressing the hell out of the electronic regulator incorporated in the thermostat. Once it's "abused" like that it will fail in the "stuck open" position. I believe it is designed to fail like this as opposed to stuck close. All this is speculation though - only what I think happens with these specific units. At the dealership they told me they know about this issue and that it's a very common failur of the M54 thermostats. My conclusion is the thermostat was designed to work at around 105C or so, but not for a sustained 120 temp cycle which happens in the city. Folks who have a long freeway commute don't experience this accelerated failure rate.

I do not believe there are any electronics within the thermostat. There is a 12V heater that adds heat to the wax pellet used to open the thermostat. I believe all the electronics are elsewhere.

doru
12-15-2010, 08:50 AM
I do not believe there are any electronics within the thermostat. There is a 12V heater that adds heat to the wax pellet used to open the thermostat. I believe all the electronics are elsewhere.

This is interesting, because my t-stats for the M54 engine all failed in the stuck open position. Usually the mechanical part (wax pellet) does not fail (as often). The question now is why is the electronic t-stat for the M54 engine so much prone to failure? Is the electronic circuitry that operates these t-stats failing/ageing in time and taking the t-stat with them?
I am thoroughly confused especially reading through Zionsville blog concerning their mechanical "competition t-stat" meant to replace the electronic OEM t-stat, and which should last longer. According to your statement (which I don't doubt), in this case maybe even the mechanical part of the OEM M54 t-stat is faulty from manufacturing (or in other words, it's not very sturdy for higher temperatures?). Here is what Zionsville claims:
"We have noted more M54 engine failures due to overheating than on any of BMW's previous engines. We believe this is due to a combination of factors including the electronic thermostat and high operating temperatures. According to BMW's technical literature, the factory thermostat is computer controlled to operate from 80 C to 103 C. BMW also reports that a mechanical failsafe does not open until the coolant temperature reaches 110 C. That's a 230 F temperature band, which may also contribute to engine failures.

Here's some background on map-controlled (electronic) thermostats from DuPont:

In conventional cooling systems a wax element (this is a mechanical thermostat) keeps the coolant temperature close to about 90 C. This control method ensures that the motor does not overheat even under extreme conditions, such as very high vehicle speeds, very high ambient temperatures and heavy loads. However, in normal conditions a petrol engine can generally be operated at 110 C without danger. This high temperature improves tribological conditions in the motor, which in turn reduce friction losses, fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. An electronic map-controlled thermostat can satisfy such variable requirements, because it can adapt the coolant temperature to the motor***8217;s operating conditions within broader limits. With the motor at partial load it maintains the coolant temperature at a consistently high level; at full load, high engine speeds or high outside temperatures it reduces the temperature and thus ensures performance characteristics which match these conditions.

So, when the coolant reaches a certain temperature, a mechanical thermostat opens. The map-controlled thermostat is ***8220;variable***8221; based on input from the engine computer. It runs the engines hot (which is why the radiators also fail) for emissions. However, when the electronic thermostat fails, it may continue to run the engines hot without opening up ***8220;at full load, high engine speeds or high outside temperatures.***8221; This might be satisfactory if the driver were alerted to the fact that the thermostat had failed. A trouble code is set in the engine computer, which can be read with a diagnostic tool, but nothing appears on the instrument cluster. So, a failed thermostat can take the engine with it.

Our replacement unit will set the same error code, but it does not turn on any lights."

The more we know, the better we are off. Maybe there is a way to get a more robust mechanical t-stat that fit our cars and adapt the electronic part of the OEM t-stat to it? (I am dreaming, but it bugs me how weak those M54 t-stats are)

cn90
12-15-2010, 09:01 AM
This is an example of engineering gone wrong.

The 1997-98 M52 engine runs on conventional thermostat and works just fine.
Then BMW engineers decided to be fancy and did all kinds of changes to the thermostat in the M54 engine, but:
- They gain nothing in terms of engine performance or emission
- They risk the M54 engine to heat damage.

Anyway, glad I have the M52 motor.

cn90
12-15-2010, 09:07 AM
For those interested, the M54 thermostat is basically "electric" and "not electronic". Basically the thermostat opens/closed based either:
- engine coolant temp
- input from the ECU

This E46 thread has good info:
http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=483258

1997-98 thermostat $15.
1999-2003 thermostat $60!!!

doru
12-15-2010, 11:15 AM
So, in essence the OEM M54 t-stat has an electric heater probe, electronically controlled by the ECU, and opens even more only if needed. (ECU management sends the signal and opens it more).
If the probe goes bad, it stays open, aka current is drawn at all times heating the element and thus effectively cooling the engine too much, which in turn will make it run rich in certain environment and therefore the mpg going South. There is one problem, that it might also fail in the "stuck close" position, and then you're toast. I believe a quick "fix" in a situation like that would be to just unplug the t-stat if your temp starts climbing and there is no evidence of lost coolant. The e46 guys claim that if the electronically controlled t-stat is unplugged, it works like a "normal" mechanical t-stat, only it does not open enough when needed.
Not sure if the modified to accept OEM shape of the Zions unit opens enough in those circumstances, but they claim it does.
I might go this route when my "new" t-stat fails.

This is a very intersting topic, and maybe we can find an answer/mod to overcome this plague. Because a Zions unit at close to 200 bux a pop is to steep.

taggart
11-09-2011, 07:22 PM
Got the thermostat stuck open code last night after checking with the Peak code reader. Already had the part in hand(Wahler) so it was changed this morning. It was the only part not replaced during the cooling overhaul around 40k ago. Part already has 80k before it took the dumps. Greased up the coolant orings and also checked the pulleys and tensioners while the fan/shroud is off. All good. Drained old coolant and put new one in. 4 hours total. Notable difference in OBC temps, before it was always around 84degC. Now it goes up to 96deg. Thought 84 is within normal range though. Also read somewhere that the Dinan software lowers OBC temps. Guess 84 was too low? Hope my gas mileage picks up.

Jason5driver
12-07-2011, 02:49 PM
I think my car's thermostat is stuck open...
Which is OEM, Wahler, or the Behr?

Thanks!
Jason

doru
12-07-2011, 03:16 PM
I think my car's thermostat is stuck open...
Which is OEM, Wahler, or the Behr?

Thanks!
Jason
For the M54 3 liter engine it's Behr.

P.S.: Jason, if the T-stat is stuck open, it will throw a code (stored), no CEL light, nothing. Scan it, and if there's nothing, maybe the T-stat was lazy combined with a cold day at startup.

Jason5driver
12-08-2011, 10:29 AM
For the M54 3 liter engine it's Behr.

P.S.: Jason, if the T-stat is stuck open, it will throw a code (stored), no CEL light, nothing. Scan it, and if there's nothing, maybe the T-stat was lazy combined with a cold day at startup.

Thanks D!

I will stop by AutoZone tonight real quick, and have the codes checked...

I am pretty sure the thermostat is stuck open because:
1. Gas mileage is horrible
2. There is barely any heat that comes out, and the air is almost cold when driving within town (typically around 25 mph).

I hope the stuck open thermostat does not affect any other items on the car....

Thanks!
Jason

doru
12-08-2011, 10:41 AM
Do it quick - rich mixture not good for cats. Also carbon deposits on valves and stuff.

Jason5driver
12-08-2011, 08:16 PM
Do it quick - rich mixture not good for cats. Also carbon deposits on valves and stuff.

I checked the codes at AutoZone.
Nothing....

I found out that the OEM thermostat is Wahler, because I asked my dealer what the label was on their thermostat.
Also, the dealer wanted $111 for their thermostat.

I also found the Wahler thermostat at ECS Tuning for $51, by far the cheapest I have found...
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E39-525i-M54_2.5L/ES10944/

I am not sure the difference between the Wahler or the BMW thermostat...
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E39-525i-M54_2.5L/Search/11537509227/ES25078/

Thanks!
Jason

doru
12-08-2011, 08:59 PM
I stand corrected. You are right, Wahler is the OEM one. I'm on my 3d OEM T-stat, and have a Behr back-up (that was the confusion in my head). These OEM ones seem to not last very long, or at least on my car they don't. That's why I have the Behr back-up. Waiting for my 3d Wahler to sh*t the bed.
Pricing seems to be similar for bothe where I looked (around the 90 bux mark)

tmvE39/E53/Z32
12-09-2011, 07:54 AM
confirmed...it was the thermostat......265.00...parts and labor...all fixed...:)

What a rip-off! I try to DIY anything I can on my E39. It cost me $75 for Behr thermostat, bmw antifreeze and 1.5 hr of my time.

Edgy36-39
01-07-2014, 08:13 AM
Happy 2014 all. Waking up with same issue.

Here's situation. For a while now my temp gauge needle would occasionally drift left, and getting a new thermostat was on my radar for this year. On Saturday, I uploaded Shark software for my M5, went smoothly. Car now more responsive in lower gears when in non-sport mode.

Took a long (100+) mile ride. Needle never got past first dot on left of gauge. Unlocked cluster showed I was running at 70C. It was extremely cold for the area that day and remains so. Car ran a bit hotter driving around town.

No codes or CEL. I called TurnerMotorSports, who I bought Shark from, and asked if they ever heard of the software making car run cooler. I'm not making the assumption it did, but figured I'd ask. They had not.

Can anyone who has DIYd this procedure watch this video, and confirm its accurate? I don't usually throw parts at a problem, but since I think stat is original it should probably be replaced anyway -- 84.5K miles.

http://m5e39.net/how-to-replace-thermostat

Thanks in advance.

doru
01-07-2014, 08:39 AM
Edgy, the only time I drove for almost 200 miles with KTMP at 70C was when the ambient temps were at -55C (that's -67F) in January 2008 I believe. That was when the CCV blew up on me as well, once I arrived in Edmonton (from Calgary) at a red light. The T-stat was working OK, but now in hindsight I should have thrown a cardboard in front of the radiator, so the cold airflow would not chill out the antifreeze instantly. Maybe try the cardboard first, if you experience those very low temps - I heard on the news that the Midwest got a massive Canadian weather import.......

crazy4trains
01-07-2014, 10:02 AM
Was 0 degrees F here this morning on my drive in. Out of curiosity i monitored the coolant temp. Once warm consistently stayed between 92 and 93 degrees C.