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Ry"c
12-27-2010, 01:32 PM
Let's have a civil discussion about the 2011 Infiniti M models compared with the BMW 5 series.
The Infinti engine's are normally aspirated while the 535i and 550i F10 5-series are turbocharged. Despite this, the Infiniti has similar horsepower and gas mileage. The BMW has brake regeneration while the Infiniti does not, which saves power. Infiniti claims it has a revolutionary new concept in passenger cabin ventilation, additional air vents in locations not on the dashboard and active detection of outside air conditions that adjusts accordingly, for example automatically turns on or off recirculating air. Also Infiniti claims it has a special wood trim made by artisans with silver flecks in it.

BMW has Heads Up display, while Infiniti does not. Both cars have steering that also moves the rear wheels to assist. BMW has Active Steering, a feature that Infiniti does not, that varies the amount of front wheel motion based on speed.

I note that both cars new for 2011 have collision avoidance--a safety feature that uses radar sensors to detect if the car is about to collide with a car in front of it, and then warns the driver and if the driver does not intervene will automotically stop the vehicle for a few seconds. The cars must be equppped with the option, "active cruise control." Infiniti's version also slows the car down after the warning and prior to the stopping by moving the accelerator pedal upward, which could improve your chances of not being hit from the rear as you stop to avoid a collision in the front. The BMW does not have this slowing feature.
Both cars optionally have lane departure warning. Infiniti adds "lane departure correction" which detects when the vehicle is straying from the lane and pulls the car back into the lane by braking front and back wheels on one side, pulling the car into the lane. The BMW only warns the driver when the car is straying from the lane but does not do the correction.
I give it to Infiniti for offering rear wheel drive along with BMW. Only a few carmakers have rear wheel drive, a better implementation. Audi is FWD or AWD, for example. Also, BMW seems to stand alone in offering in-line 6-cylinder vehicles. Note the Infiniti M37 is a V-6. The in-line is a better implementation.
I chose a 2011 BMW 550i. I liked the performance better than the Infinity M56 that was not sporty.

blackhawk_pilot
12-27-2010, 01:41 PM
Ok,
Enough with this nonsense already. How in the world are you trying to compare a Nissan with a BMW.
When you post something along the lines of "f10 550 vs. Maserati Quattroporte" then you'll get some serious attention.

raleedy
12-27-2010, 02:20 PM
Ok,
Enough with this nonsense already. How in the world are you trying to compare a Nissan with a BMW.
When you post something along the lines of "f10 550 vs. Maserati Quattroporte" then you'll get some serious attention.

But he does like the 550 better than the M. In the same vein, I like the 550 better than the Yugo.

Stealth.Pilot
12-27-2010, 03:41 PM
In my mind there are 4 major reasons I would not buy an Infiniti M56S, and am going to get the 2012 550i instead:

1) Active Suspension. While some don't like the Dynamic Handling Package on the 550i, I think its fantastic. There are certain roads where you just don't want to be driving with a sports suspension. The ability to switch modes and have a totally different car is fantastic. Also Dynamic Handling adjusts to road and driving style conditions within a suspension setting, so even in Sport Mode, the 550i will have a better ride than an M56S because it will react to bumpy surfaces. Plus the Infiniti does not stay flat in turns. In my test drives, the M56S was too firm and had a poor ride not befitting a luxury car. The regular non-sport M56 felt soft. The 550i always delivered what I wanted.

2) Quality of materials and finishes. The plastics used in the Infiniti on the dash, upper door panels, and lower panels, are hard plastics. They don't use soft touch plastics which you can press your thumb into like in the BMW. Infiniti offers soft touch materials as part of its luxury touring package, but this is not a compatible option with the sport package. So if you want sport, you can't have high grade interior finishes. This is the kind if silly limitations on specification that befits a cheap mass manufacturer, but not a company trying to sell a $70k car. Also the color options are pretty limited. So are BMWs, but BMW does have Deep Sea Blue which is a striking color. And Space Gray is very nice too. Infiniti's colors seem a bit dull to me. Regarding the wood trim, my experience with the old M (which I have rented at least a dozen times from Hertz) is that their wood trim is cheap and prone to peeling.

3) Some gaps in the tech. No side and top view camera option (odd given that Infiniti invented this). Small Nav screen - the BMW one is a lot better. The small Nav screen though is on par with that offered by Mercedes and Porsche (7 or 8 inches I think).

4) Depreciation and TCO. The Infiniti when I spec'd it out came out to $72k. The BMW came out to $78k. I don't think in the resale market people will pay anywhere near the same price for an Infiniti as for a BMW, so I think this car is going to be a depreciation nightmare. The lack of demand is already evident in the sense that Infiniti M sales are down 50% y-o-y - which is shocking for an all new model. This bodes badly for depreciation, and by implication for total cost of ownership.

5) Styling. The shape is too swoopy. Styling reminds me of Buick a little bit, although it is better than Buick.

The only advantage I can think of for the Infiniti is the normally aspirated engine. Based on the history of the N54 engine, I don't think the 550i will fare well in long-term powertrain reliability; however if you plan to own the car for 3-4 years under warranty and ditch it, then this may not be a consideration.

TJPark01
12-27-2010, 05:49 PM
Inside Line just did this...
2011 Infiniti M56 vs. 2011 BMW 550i Comparison Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkyuJNQdjvk&feature=youtube_gdata)

quackbury
12-27-2010, 05:56 PM
But he does like the 550 better than the M. In the same vein, I like the 550 better than the Yugo.

And I like you and blackhawk more than I like bat boy. But now that I've said that, the admins will close the thread again...

PS In the spirit of adding something constructive: My Datsun 240Z was one of the 4 most fun cars I've ever owned (the others being my 911, MB 190E 2.3-16 and current M3). But since the Z-car was a Datsun, not a Nissan, and was called the Fairlady in other markets (like the Infiniti is called a Nissan in other markets), does that advance or detract from the arguments expressed on that "other" Infiniti vs. F10 thread?

I'm so confused......

FPNY
12-27-2010, 06:29 PM
i went to drive the m prior to reordering a bmw. my 08 535xi with 45,000 miles on it was waaaaaaay better than their brand spanking new m car.

end of story for me......

Ry"c
12-29-2010, 05:02 PM
Jimefam started a new thread about the Insideline review comparing 2011 Infiniti M56 with 2011 BMW 550, both with Sport Package. This review and video was already being discussed within this thread. Some other participant in the Edmunds comments started mentioning over and over to also compare the Cadallic CTS-V with the other two. The CTS-V is not even in the same segment. Others are saying compare the Hyundai Genesis (a Korean rear-wheel drive auto?) Is the Genesis even in the same league? It is a lot less expensive.

user1796
12-29-2010, 05:19 PM
In the interests of being civil, the styling differences - i.e., I agree that the Infiniti is just way too swoopy were enough for me to dismiss it from consideration.

TJPark01
12-29-2010, 06:10 PM
Jimefam started a new thread about the Insideline review comparing 2011 Infiniti M56 with 2012 BMW 550, both with Sport Package. Others are saying compare the Hyundai Genesis (a Korean rear-wheel drive auto?) Is the Genesis even in the same league? It is a lot less expensive.
Yeah I can tell you that Hyundai is a very different car company than most remember. I bot a V8 Genesis instead of a 328i. You can read a detailed discussion here:
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401129&highlight=hyundai+genesis

user1796
12-29-2010, 06:48 PM
Actually, I wondering if the Equus with the Tau V8 isn't the better comparison for the Infiniti - i.e., it even looks a little bit like the Infiniti. I've never driven one, and I'm not sure that the V8 is available in Korea, but I've been chauffeured around Seoul in the Equus quite a bit and from a luxury standpoint you'd never guess Hyundai. (Actually, in Seoul if you guessed anything but Hyundai or Kia you'd have a 90%+ chance of being wrong.)

Hyundai will be a serious competitor for the Japanese cars, if they're not already, but to me it seems that their focus is Toyota and not the German cars. Even most Koreans, who appear incredibly loyal to the local manufacturers will tell you that they don't compare to German cars, which I suppose is kind of how I think about the Infiniti.

quackbury
12-29-2010, 06:52 PM
Jimefam started a new thread about the Insideline review comparing 2011 Infiniti M56 with 2012 BMW 550, both with Sport Package. This review and video was already being discussed within this thread. Some other participant in the Edmunds comments started mentioning over and over to also compare the Cadallic CTS-V with the other two. The CTS-V is not even in the same segment. Others are saying compare the Hyundai Genesis (a Korean rear-wheel drive auto?) Is the Genesis even in the same league? It is a lot less expensive.

Wow. Have you driven the CTS-V? It is one amazing car, with great handling and power, and some features you just can't get on an F10 (like a spare tire). Don't be so quick to dismiss it. It is not your (grand)father's Cadillac.

Stanesq
12-29-2010, 07:38 PM
Yeah I can tell you that Hyundai is a very different car company than most remember. I bot a V8 Genesis instead of a 328i. You can read a detailed discussion here:
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401129&highlight=hyundai+genesis

This reminds me of when my wife wanted to go drive an Acura MDX. We went to the Acura dealer and the salesman said to me that one of his customers traded in a 5 series for an Acura TL (total loser) a week earlier. He then asked me if I could venture a guess why, so I responded "Let me see, the guy lost his job, was kicked out by his wife and is sitting on the balls of his ass with very little money?"

My wife still laughs at that moment. The salesman didnt know what to say.

Ry"c
12-29-2010, 07:48 PM
In the interests of being civil, the styling differences - i.e., I agree that the Infiniti is just way too swoopy were enough for me to dismiss it from consideration.

What is the definition of "swoopy?" What does that term mean?

EdCT
12-29-2010, 08:39 PM
This reminds me of when my wife wanted to go drive an Acura MDX. We went to the Acura dealer and the salesman said to me that one of his customers traded in a 5 series for an Acura TL (total loser) a week earlier. He then asked me if I could venture a guess why, so I responded "Let me see, the guy lost his job, was kicked out by his wife and is sitting on the balls of his ass with very little money?"

My wife still laughs at that moment. The salesman didnt know what to say.

I bet he knew what he wanted to say, but decorum and good sense prevented it :thumbdwn:

quackbury
12-29-2010, 08:40 PM
What is the definition of "swoopy?" What does that term mean?

Chris Bangle on acid.

EdCT
12-29-2010, 08:42 PM
Wow. Have you driven the CTS-V? It is one amazing car, with great handling and power, and some features you just can't get on an F10 (like a spare tire). Don't be so quick to dismiss it. It is not your (grand)father's Cadillac.

My cousin has one, I drove it with him some 500 miles to and from New Hampshire.

It's a nice car and a good value, but I hated the front seats (cushion too short), the cramped dash and footwells and the poor visibility through small windows.

Steers nicely, is built well and goes fast.

Ed

jimefam
12-29-2010, 09:44 PM
I have to chuckle when someone mentions that these cars "dont compare with german cars" with this exaggerated sense of superiority. Dont get me wrong I bought a 550I and love it but the idea of "Great German Engineering" is either out of date or overblown at least as it pertains to cars. Check the forum and you'll see these cars are rife with bugs and issues of all sorts. You'd be hard pressed to find a Japanese car with such reliability issues. These are good cars and have earned my business because I dont care about overpaying because I wanted the TT V8 and liked the styling but don't kid myself into thinking I've got some unequaled piece of precision machinery(as the grinding in my steering keeps reminding me) Glad the general public buys into that myth though as it keeps resale value and brand cachet high. Oh and Ry"c didn't mean to steal your thunder with that other thread I saw they had locked your first one and hadn't seen the second one.

user1796
12-30-2010, 12:37 AM
What is the definition of "swoopy?" What does that term mean?

According to Webster:

Definition of SWOOPY
: having sweeping lines or movement <a swoopy silhouette>
First Known Use of SWOOPY
1978

Now let's see if I can explain myself. To my eye, the lines of the M look like someone drew them with a pen and instead of stopping when they should have, they simply kept the pen going in a "sweeping" or "wavy" fashion. With these lines, I think the M would look much better as a smaller car - e.g., the Porsche Cayman is a "swoopy" car to my eye, but given that it's a smaller car and sits lower to the ground than the M, it pulls it off better than the M, although I still don't care for the Cayman's design from the side once you get past the doors.

I'm not saying that I hate all swoopy car designs - e.g., see the old Jaguar XJ220, which is very swoopy, perhaps even more swoopy than the M, but that design works for me, probably because it's a mid-engine, which seems to give it a sense of balance? Either that or the fact that it went 220 mph or had those cool scoops taken out of the sides.

In short, I think the Infiniti just reminds me too much of a Buick.

EdCT
12-30-2010, 07:25 AM
Discussions about styling lead nowhere, one man's "swoopy" is another's not swoopy enough - it's all subjective.

I used to own a Z4, I thought it looked great, yet there were people (who shall remain nameless) who would get angry over any discussion of that car, so polarized were they by the "styling" :rolleyes:

Stanesq
12-30-2010, 01:03 PM
I bet he knew what he wanted to say, but decorum and good sense prevented it :thumbdwn:

How much good sense could the guy have comparing an Acura TL to a 535? I have little sympathy for a salesman who tries to hoodwink unsuspecting buyers. I am sure that more than one sucker has bought an Acura because the salesman told him it was "better than a 5 series". If the Acura and others were truly better we would all be buying Acuras, Infinitis and Lexus instead of BMW.

GHOST PROTOCOL
12-30-2010, 01:09 PM
I have to chuckle when someone mentions that these cars "dont compare with german cars" with this exaggerated sense of superiority. Dont get me wrong I bought a 550I and love it but the idea of "Great German Engineering" is either out of date or overblown at least as it pertains to cars. Check the forum and you'll see these cars are rife with bugs and issues of all sorts. You'd be hard pressed to find a Japanese car with such reliability issues. These are good cars and have earned my business because I dont care about overpaying because I wanted the TT V8 and liked the styling but don't kid myself into thinking I've got some unequaled piece of precision machinery(as the grinding in my steering keeps reminding me) Glad the general public buys into that myth though as it keeps resale value and brand cachet high. Oh and Ry"c didn't mean to steal your thunder with that other thread I saw they had locked your first one and hadn't seen the second one.

Can you say Toyota?

jimefam
12-30-2010, 01:58 PM
What about Toyota? That unintended acceleration deal that they determined was for the most part people stomping on the wrong pedal? Car and driver did a test and determined it wasn't even possible for the engine to overwhelm the brakes. Funny you should mention Toyota as I have a 2006 4runner as my work truck and it has just over 124k miles with only oil changes and not even on time most of the time. Car still runs perfect and I expect it to for at least another 125k. Look at the jd power surveys for initial quality these cars have lots of bugs and issues which some of the other "inferior" brands don't experience as often. Look at the new BMW commercials about copies and buying an original, I find that so arrogant it's silly. For the money I spent I could have gotten a Lexus LS 460 which is NOT inferior to my 550i it's just aimed at a different buyer. And BMW is changing their philosophy to lure away Lexus customers far more than Lexus is trying to "copy" BMW. As I said above I love my 550i but I just think some peoples smugness in thinking their brand is inherently superior because they overpaid is funny.

GHOST PROTOCOL
12-30-2010, 02:27 PM
But why then is Toyota about 49 million dollars less affluent?

Oh yes, here is the answer: http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/21/toyota-to-pay-32-4m-in-extra-fines/

jimefam
12-30-2010, 02:48 PM
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/07/breaking-nhtsa-blames-driver-error-for-toyota-unintended-acceleration/

http://m.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_1003_unintended_acceleration_test/index.html

Toyota will gladly pay those fines and try and move on. Even if it was all driver error what is Toyota gonna do? Come out and say no these people were idiots who panicked and f'ed up and that's why they died? No that would be a worse PR hit than to say yeah we made a mistake it's fixed and your all safe from the big bad loose carpet mat. Look up what happened to Audi after it's own little incident of "unintended acceleration" (what's this a German brand with those issues!!!?!) even though they were also cleared of any error and it was just pathetic driving to blame(as it almost always is) they lost many millions of dollars in lost sales. As for congressional investigations don't be naive anytime a US senator or rep can be seen to protect the public they will jump on it. Nevermind the fact that it's the Japanese brand that has been pounding the us brands for years. In short at worst it was a loose carpet mat and probably just mass hysteria and lousy driving. Hardly what I'd term reliability issues.

GHOST PROTOCOL
12-30-2010, 03:08 PM
O.K., let this be the final word on the issue and then we can all go in peace and enjoy our respective vehicles as the New Year approaches. There is one thing that BMW and the new Five Series has, that Toyota does not and will not have in any of its vehicles. BMW has . . . The mystery dot!

Inline Sixer
12-30-2010, 04:07 PM
This is not even much of a contest. If these two keys were side by side on my coffee table, I'd prefer to take the 550i any day. Personal preference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkyuJNQdjvk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

EdCT
12-30-2010, 04:47 PM
How much good sense could the guy have comparing an Acura TL to a 535? I have little sympathy for a salesman who tries to hoodwink unsuspecting buyers. I am sure that more than one sucker has bought an Acura because the salesman told him it was "better than a 5 series". If the Acura and others were truly better we would all be buying Acuras, Infinitis and Lexus instead of BMW.

I don't think that's true at all, there's a car for everyone, and everyone doesn't want or "like" BMW's.

And no, BMW's aren't "superior" to Acuras, they're just different (and more expensive). In fact, you could make a pretty good argument Acura (honda) designs better engines, suspensions and all wheel drive systems - don't forget, Acura/Honda was heavily involved in Formula One some years back - its V6 was a killer and much of that technology filtered its way down into production cars like the S2000, Accord Vtechs and Acuras.

I also don't think BMW outsells Honda either, in fact, Honda vastly outsells BMW - it's apples to oranges as Honda is a volume maker across many price points and demographics - as a result, its wealth allows for resources in research and development a smaller maker like BMW can only dream of.

I've had three BMW's and numerous Hondas and Acuras, what makes BMW's desirable, imo, is the sum of the parts, not the parts. For example, my BMW has a rudimentary MacPherson strut front suspension - nothing special, but it works really well (BMW seems to know how to get the weighting of all the controls just right - the steering, brakes, clutch, shifter all seem to work in harmony), Ironically, BMW's gone to double wishbones on the new 5 series and lost a good deal of handling in the process, that and a lot of weight gain is making the newer gen BMWs less desirable, IMO.

I'd rather drive our Infiniti M35x over the new 5 any day of the week, it's a great car and fun to drive - but that's just my opinion.

Ed

car-fan
12-30-2010, 06:40 PM
There is nothing wrong with Infiniti. I have 2 of them in addition to my 550 and Mini. The 5.6 DI engine is no joke the specs on my nearly 6000 lb truck run from 5.9 to 6.1- 0 to 60. The tech that was originally introduced by infiniti is now being offered by BMW with Top View camera's etc.

Admittedly, Nissan/Infiniti is not quite up to german specs of interior quality and/or overall performance in some areas. Money no object would I take a an M56 over a comparitively spec'd 550? No. But the infiniti is not an also ran, I would take it over an EClass or current A6 in a heart beat.

You need more than a test drive down the block, to really gauge the performance of the M56. There is no lag, transmission and normally aspirated v8 respond instantly to throttle input. Also I have never seen a CEL in any of my infiniti products since buying my first Infiniti in 2003.

People also make comments about the GTR, another Nissan product touted as being inferior, however it's been causing the competition to sleep with their Pumas on to keep ahead of it. It is also why those true enthusiasts with multi-million dollar car collections, more often than not, will have a GTR in the stable.

Just my two cents:)

markl53
12-30-2010, 07:55 PM
What is the definition of "swoopy?" What does that term mean?

Swoopy = Infiniti M = Hyundai Elantra -- A lot of similarity, IMO.

user1796
12-31-2010, 03:28 AM
What about Toyota? That unintended acceleration deal that they determined was for the most part people stomping on the wrong pedal? Car and driver did a test and determined it wasn't even possible for the engine to overwhelm the brakes. Funny you should mention Toyota as I have a 2006 4runner as my work truck and it has just over 124k miles with only oil changes and not even on time most of the time. Car still runs perfect and I expect it to for at least another 125k. Look at the jd power surveys for initial quality these cars have lots of bugs and issues which some of the other "inferior" brands don't experience as often. Look at the new BMW commercials about copies and buying an original, I find that so arrogant it's silly. For the money I spent I could have gotten a Lexus LS 460 which is NOT inferior to my 550i it's just aimed at a different buyer. And BMW is changing their philosophy to lure away Lexus customers far more than Lexus is trying to "copy" BMW. As I said above I love my 550i but I just think some peoples smugness in thinking their brand is inherently superior because they overpaid is funny.

You know, I love people that complain about "quality issues" and the "arrogance of the brand" and then buy the car! Of course this board is going to seem to highlight some of the "quality" issues associated with the car, just as I'm sure that any Toyota board would highlight issues with the luxury Toyota - er, Lexus. The readers and posters on the board are not exactly a representative sample of the entire buying public for either product, but rather people that fall into a few distinct categories, one of which is typically "There's a problem with my car."

Oh, and btw, Toyota is offering a trade incentive for BMW buyers to switch to Lexus - kind of an indication that they're trying to "lure away BMW customers," no? I'm pretty sure that's what the advertising is aimed at.