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bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 05:55 PM
My CA advised me today that my requested ED delivery date was approved. When I was sent the build sheet a few weeks ago everything looked as ordered except two items were listed as "Blocked", one was the Net Total at the bottom of the sheet, the other was "6WA
Instrument Cluster with extended contents". The CA did not have an explanation but said he was getting one. Have not had one yet. Anyone have any insight? Could this be related to the pending change in the Instrument Cluster display?

Kar Don
01-08-2011, 06:08 PM
My CA advised me today that my requested ED delivery date was approved. When I was sent the build sheet a few weeks ago everything looked as ordered except two items were listed as "Blocked", one was the Net Total at the bottom of the sheet, the other was "6WA
Instrument Cluster with extended contents". The CA did not have an explanation but said he was getting one. Have not had one yet. Anyone have any insight? Could this be related to the pending change in the Instrument Cluster display?

What is your ED date?? Is 6wa an option that you specifically selected or is it a standard feature.

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 06:31 PM
What is the actual title of your build sheet? Is it Build Sheet? I have a "Vehicle Inquiry Report", and I don't see 6WA anywhere on this document. Nothing is blocked out. I have an early March ED planned.

I did find this: http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8637809

Houseofpang
01-08-2011, 06:34 PM
Maybe is because of the new black out cluster that is coming out in march?

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 06:37 PM
What is the actual title of your build sheet? Is it Build Sheet? I have a "Vehicle Inquiry Report", and I don't see 6WA anywhere on this document. Nothing is blocked out. I have an early March ED planned.

I did find this: http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8637809

My ED is mid April. It is a Vehicle Inquiry Report my CA gave me to look over and agree to that the options were correct. The 6WA is not an option I selected, but showed up on the report. My CA called it a "Build Sheet", but it is titled Vehicle Inquiry Report.

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 06:41 PM
Maybe is because of the new black out cluster that is coming out in march?

That's what I thought was a possibility (dunderhi thinks so too). Maybe it was blocked because the actual build date was not yet established.

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 06:42 PM
I found a bit more info:

Also new in the BMW 5 Series will be the optional full-colour BMW Head-Up Display and the instrument cluster with extended functionality (supplementary information modes, additional permanent displays and parallel display of navigation system and on-board computer data). This instrument cluster corresponds to the system already used on the BMW 5 Series Gran Turismo and the BMW 7 Series.

http://www.germancarforum.com/bmw-lounge/35999-bmw-model-year-refresh.html

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 06:45 PM
My ED is mid April. It is a Vehicle Inquiry Report my CA gave me to look over and agree to that the options were correct. The 6WA is not an option I selected, but showed up on the report. My CA called it a "Build Sheet", but it is titled Vehicle Inquiry Report.

So does it look like you might be getting the cluster, or does blocked out look like it's N/A?

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 06:48 PM
What is the actual title of your build sheet? Is it Build Sheet? I have a "Vehicle Inquiry Report", and I don't see 6WA anywhere on this document. Nothing is blocked out. I have an early March ED planned.

I did find this: http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8637809

6WA was listed right above 9AA Transportation Protection. Also of note is that "428 Warning Triangle" that comes with ED delivery is also listed. Other than the Net Total Line and the Destination charge, Warning Triangle and Instrument Cluster with extended option, everything else is an option or selection. Mine is a 550ix Msport.

I was hoping that a late model year delivery would bring most upgrades and least amount of problems, since BMW will be well into the model year.

EvolutionTheory
01-08-2011, 06:54 PM
I found a bit more info:

Also new in the BMW 5 Series will be the optional full-colour BMW Head-Up Display and the instrument cluster with extended functionality (supplementary information modes, additional permanent displays and parallel display of navigation system and on-board computer data). This instrument cluster corresponds to the system already used on the BMW 5 Series Gran Turismo and the BMW 7 Series.

http://www.germancarforum.com/bmw-lounge/35999-bmw-model-year-refresh.html

Excellent Info! Thanks.

Kar Don
01-08-2011, 06:54 PM
Were you able to combine this deal with the holiday credit?

Kar Don
01-08-2011, 06:59 PM
Auto start/stop feature is coming to the 535i xdrive according to that German car forum. Anyone else confirm that?

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 07:00 PM
So does it look like you might be getting the cluster, or does blocked out look like it's N/A?

I'm not sure, but I am going to find out. I am hoping all the extras come with the build. Thanks for the link to the germancar forum. I was aware of some of those, but it is nicely summarized and looks like a good source of information. I am hoping the reason it was "Blocked "means that until the ED delivery date was set it was an unknown at the time. I will post once I get an answer from the CA. Will also ask about the upgraded HUD, and smartphone integration are options I selected. I just switched from Blackberry to Droid in December, but now I see that Verizon is getting iphone. I am hoping Droid X can work as well, but no adapter out yet to my knowledge.

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 07:03 PM
Were you able to combine this deal with the holiday credit?

No, My CA said I would have had to take delivery by March 3 (or there abouts), but I can take advantage of any programs that come out up until build date. He expects probable two programs. Usually BMW has their "Spring Drive" campaign. We'll see.

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 07:04 PM
6WA was listed right above 9AA Transportation Protection. Also of note is that "428 Warning Triangle" that comes with ED delivery is also listed. Other than the Net Total Line and the Destination charge, Warning Triangle and Instrument Cluster with extended option, everything else is an option or selection. Mine is a 550ix Msport.

I was hoping that a late model year delivery would bring most upgrades and least amount of problems, since BMW will be well into the model year.

Yeah, I'm pretty much ordering the same model. My first VIR was dated 13 Dec, but CA sent me an update on the 27th (to add Anthracite wood). Neither report had 6WA listed.

Kar Don
01-08-2011, 07:10 PM
Ya I really want the 6NR and 6WA but would like the holiday credit. Hmmm. Just hate to get a car that will be instantly out of date.

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Were you able to combine this deal with the holiday credit?

Yes for me. My CA said I could pick-up in late March or maybe April, but I would risk not having a VIN by Mar 4, which would be required to sign the final paperwork for the purchase. I chose early March, so that would be zero risk of losing the Holiday Credit, and it would coincide with Fasching (Carnival) in Munich.

Needsdecaf
01-08-2011, 07:14 PM
Auto start/stop feature is coming to the 535i xdrive according to that German car forum. Anyone else confirm that?

Probably in Europe only.

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 07:24 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty much ordering the same model. My first VIR was dated 13 Dec, but CA sent me an update on the 27th (to add Anthracite wood). Neither report had 6WA listed.

Mine was dated Dec 29th. Was your ED date delivery date established at that time.

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 07:27 PM
Ya I really want the 6NR and 6WA but would like the holiday credit. Hmmm. Just hate to get a car that will be instantly out of date.

6NR? Is that smartphone integration. Mine is listed as 6NF.

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 08:03 PM
Mine was dated Dec 29th. Was your ED date delivery date established at that time.

We got our ED date confirmed on Dec 27th, which was the date of the corrected VIR.

bmwarchitect
01-08-2011, 08:26 PM
We got our ED date confirmed on Dec 27th, which was the date of the corrected VIR.

I will let you know what I find out when I talk to the CA on Monday as to what of new features are included.

dunderhi
01-08-2011, 08:36 PM
I will let you know what I find out when I talk to the CA on Monday as to what of new features are included.

Thanks, I'll forward to what you find out.

ksoze
01-08-2011, 09:18 PM
6NR? Is that smartphone integration. Mine is listed as 6NF.

No. 6NR is the upcoming enhanced phone functionality hyped in a recent iPhone app released in December. It says it required option 6NR, offered on cars built after 3/2011. What is unknown is if post Sept 2010 cars with the Combox (6VC) will be software upgradeable.

bmwarchitect
01-09-2011, 05:45 AM
No. 6NR is the upcoming enhanced phone functionality hyped in a recent iPhone app released in December. It says it required option 6NR, offered on cars built after 3/2011. What is unknown is if post Sept 2010 cars with the Combox (6VC) will be software upgradeable.

Thanx for the info. Wouldn't you guess that all cars built after a certain date would get the upgrades that are part of the base car? THe only reason I could conjecture is if you locked in before the price hike, but it would seem odd to me to have them built differently on the assembly line, but BMW does have a variety of specs for different countries, etc.

markl53
01-09-2011, 10:35 AM
Probably in Europe only.

Please -- let's hope so.

Kar Don
01-09-2011, 10:39 AM
Please -- let's hope so.

Why hope so? I think it's a good feature. Help conserve gas in city traffic.

markl53
01-09-2011, 08:33 PM
Why hope so? I think it's a good feature. Help conserve gas in city traffic.

Well, if I have to stop say 100 times on my way home from work, which I probably do, for 10-15 seconds, do we think it's a good idea to stop and start the engine so many times? Personally I don't. If it's a "smart" system where it figures out how much and for how long you're having to stop and makes adjustments, I might be more accepting. I need more detail, but for now, I'm not crazy about the idea. Besides wasting the starter and battery, it probably doesn't do good things for the engine to have so many short stop/restart cycles -- oil considerations, plugs and the like. I'm also not sure I'm convinced that enough research has been done to determine optimum cycle benefits and how much fuel will actually be saved. No flames needed, those are simply my opinions. Yours may differ.

EDIT: Remember, "they" don't really care about your car in this case, it's about saving fuel "at any cost". Again, not sure how much will be saved. When they decide that turning off the headlights and other accessories will help save fuel, you want your xenons turning off and on every few seconds? Come to think of it, that's going to happen anyway if the engine is shut down. They don't care how many xenon bulbs you burn out, it's all about the fuel. Not everything "big brother" does for us is good, IMO.

Now you've got me started. Where does it end? Maybe they'll force your A/C to be shut off without your choice so your car won't stay cool. Hey this will save more fuel -- you can stand a little more discomfort for the "good" of everyone else. Do you let the electric company cycle your A/C at your house? Etc., etc.

Rafa
01-09-2011, 09:02 PM
I am with you, markl53. I do not like the idea od the engine shutting off every time I stop for longer than a couple of seconds. I think that there are better ways to save fuel that are not so potentially damaging to the engine and other car systems.

I hope that this feature is never imposed upon us and that when it becomes common across brands and models it remains a stand alone option that one can opt for or decline.

markl53
01-09-2011, 09:09 PM
A few more scenarios:
You're driving in winter in a snowstorm in traffic. Your rear defog is keeping your rear window clear, as well as your front defroster. You stop for 20 seconds. Uh-oh, your engine shuts down for a while. Snow and ice starts to accumulate on your windows, not a safe thing. You then have to get out, maybe on a highway, to clear your windows to see where you're headed or risk an accident. Sure the engine will start again, but maybe only for a few seconds until you stop again and shutdown. Your wipers stick to your windshield, uh-oh now what? The cabin temp is now dropping and the heat can't keep up for the few seconds the engine will be running -- better keep a blanket handy like the horse and buggy days.

It's 95 degrees on a hot summer day in DC. Your climate control has been on for a while and now your cabin temperature is under control. Your fan has slowed and your AC compressor can cycle now that the temp has moderated. You stop in traffic for 20 seconds. Uh-oh. your engine shuts down for a while. Your cabin starts heating up. OK finally the engine starts for the few seconds it takes to creep up a bit. Your compressor now has to run 100% to get the cabin cool again, your fan is running at high speed. All this uses additional energy, more that it was when the temperature was under control. I wonder if I'm still saving fuel by shutting down.

These are not far fetched situations, IMO, they happen everyday. A lot more thinking needs to happen before it's smart to simply shut off the car in traffic. Again, if an ounce of fuel is saved per trip, is this worth it? We already pay taxes for every gallon of gas we use, I'm paying back for what I use. Maybe raising the gas tax a few cents is a better option. Do we get a vote?

Rafa
01-09-2011, 09:15 PM
I'd rather pay more for a car that uses carbon fiber, aluminum or other materials to reduce weight and save gas that way. Also, one would have the added benefit of improved handling.

dunderhi
01-09-2011, 10:03 PM
A few more scenarios:
You're driving in winter in a snowstorm in traffic. Your rear defog is keeping your rear window clear, as well as your front defroster. You stop for 20 seconds. Uh-oh, your engine shuts down for a while. Snow and ice starts to accumulate on your windows, not a safe thing. You then have to get out, maybe on a highway, to clear your windows to see where you're headed or risk an accident. Sure the engine will start again, but maybe only for a few seconds until you stop again and shutdown. Your wipers stick to your windshield, uh-oh now what? The cabin temp is now dropping and the heat can't keep up for the few seconds the engine will be running -- better keep a blanket handy like the horse and buggy days.

It's 95 degrees on a hot summer day in DC. Your climate control has been on for a while and now your cabin temperature is under control. Your fan has slowed and your AC compressor can cycle now that the temp has moderated. You stop in traffic for 20 seconds. Uh-oh. your engine shuts down for a while. Your cabin starts heating up. OK finally the engine starts for the few seconds it takes to creep up a bit. Your compressor now has to run 100% to get the cabin cool again, your fan is running at high speed. All this uses additional energy, more that it was when the temperature was under control. I wonder if I'm still saving fuel by shutting down.

These are not far fetched situations, IMO, they happen everyday. A lot more thinking needs to happen before it's smart to simply shut off the car in traffic. Again, if an ounce of fuel is saved per trip, is this worth it? We already pay taxes for every gallon of gas we use, I'm paying back for what I use. Maybe raising the gas tax a few cents is a better option. Do we get a vote?

I believe most cars equiped with auto start/stop have a second battery so that auxillary equipment will continue to run while the engine is stopped.

Diver624
01-10-2011, 08:37 AM
I believe most cars equiped with auto start/stop have a second battery so that auxillary equipment will continue to run while the engine is stopped.

AC compressors require the engine to be running and are not powered by a battery. The fan can run off battery power to keep air circulating but there will be no cooling.
Markl53 makes some very good points.

DXK
01-10-2011, 08:55 AM
You then have to get out, maybe on a highway, to clear your windows to see where you're headed or risk an accident.

LOL. Start / Stop has been available in Europe for a while; I've been on the roads at all weather conditions over there and I've never seen anyone do that !

Have you guys read the technical documentation to understand that feature?

raleedy
01-10-2011, 04:38 PM
AC compressors require the engine to be running and are not powered by a battery. The fan can run off battery power to keep air circulating but there will be no cooling.
Markl53 makes some very good points.

This is all nonsense. These cars all have electrically powered services including water pump and a/c so there is no sacrifice of comfort or safety. There is also a switch to shut the start-stop system off. So all the objections offered here are baseless.

Diver624
01-10-2011, 05:37 PM
This is all nonsense. These cars all have electrically powered services including water pump and a/c so there is no sacrifice of comfort or safety. There is also a switch to shut the start-stop system off. So all the objections offered here are baseless.

Please provide some form of proof regarding automobile AC compressors running off a battery without requiring the engine to be running. There are electric water pumps however they obviously only need to run when the engine is on and they require far less power to operate than the AC compressor.

markl53
01-10-2011, 05:40 PM
This is all nonsense. These cars all have electrically powered services including water pump and a/c so there is no sacrifice of comfort or safety. There is also a switch to shut the start-stop system off. So all the objections offered here are baseless.

I admit I wasn't totally up to speed with the functionality of the "feature". I read some sites today, most of them talked about extending this from hybrid technology. Didn't find many yet that delved into maintaining electrical functions during stop. You sure about being able to switch it off? Thanks for the correction and sorry for posting misleading info.

raleedy
01-10-2011, 06:11 PM
Please provide some form of proof regarding automobile AC compressors running off a battery without requiring the engine to be running. There are electric water pumps however they obviously only need to run when the engine is on and they require far less power to operate than the AC compressor.

It would make more sense for you to provide some form of proof for these offbeat criticisms. Or at least do your own googling. But here you go anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

bmwarchitect
01-10-2011, 07:19 PM
Thanks, I'll forward to what you find out.

Was not able to connect with the dealer today to talk about this. Left a message. Maybe tomorrow.

Diver624
01-10-2011, 07:34 PM
It would make more sense for you to provide some form of proof for these offbeat criticisms. Or at least do your own googling. But here you go anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start-stop_system

The link you provided simply states in a general way that these types of accessories "can" be powered by an electric motor. It does not mention a single car that operates the AC compressor in this way. If BMW had this type of system they would be talking about it. The link also says that the article requires verification. Again please show where BMW's AC compressor runs with out the engine running or any auto manufacturer for that matter.

raleedy
01-10-2011, 07:39 PM
The link you provided simply states in a general way that these types of accessories "can" be powered by an electric motor. It does not mention a single car that operates the AC compressor in this way. If BMW had this type of system they would be talking about it. The link also says that the article requires verification. Again please show where BMW's AC compressor runs with out the engine running or any auto manufacturer for that matter.

Nope. Time for you to do some of your own work.

dunderhi
01-10-2011, 07:59 PM
I found this on a little known website: www.bmw.com

Auto Start Stop function.

A clever way to save fuel: the Auto Start Stop function turns off the engine each time the vehicle comes to a complete halt - such as at traffic lights - and restarts it automatically. A reduction in fuel consumption is the result.

The principle is simple: if the engine is not running, it cannot consume fuel. The Auto Start Stop function turns off the engine whenever it is not needed. In a traffic jam or in stop-and-go traffic, simply putting your BMW into neutral and taking your foot from the clutch will activate the function. "Start Stop" on the Info Display signals that the engine has been turned off.

To set off again, just put your BMW back into gear: the moment you depress the clutch, the engine immediately springs back to life and you can drive on without a moment's delay.

Driving comfort and driving safety are not affected by the Auto Start Stop function. The function is not activated, for example, until the engine has reached the ideal running temperature. The same applies if the air conditioner has not yet brought the cabin to the desired temperature, if the battery is not adequately charged or if the driver moves the steering wheel.

The Auto Start Stop function is coordinated by a central control unit that monitors data from all relevant sensors, the starter motor and the alternator. If necessary for comfort or safety, the control unit will automatically restart the engine: for example, if the vehicle begins to roll, the battery charge falls too low or condensation forms on the windscreen.

Furthermore, the system also recognises the difference between a temporary stop and the end of the trip. It will not restart the engine if driver's seatbelt is undone, or if the door or bonnet is open. If desired, the Auto Start Stop function can be completely deactivated with the press of a button.

When used consistently, the Auto Start Stop function delivers significant reductions in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.

dunderhi
01-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Was not able to connect with the dealer today to talk about this. Left a message. Maybe tomorrow.

Thanks for the update.

DXK
01-10-2011, 08:00 PM
Delete

dunderhi
01-10-2011, 08:05 PM
The link you provided simply states in a general way that these types of accessories "can" be powered by an electric motor. It does not mention a single car that operates the AC compressor in this way. If BMW had this type of system they would be talking about it. The link also says that the article requires verification. Again please show where BMW's AC compressor runs with out the engine running or any auto manufacturer for that matter.

From http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37288

Fordís Auto Start-Stop not only improves fuel economy but allows the heater and A/C to work normally according to Ford engineering representatives.

Diver624
01-11-2011, 06:30 AM
I found this on a little known website: www.bmw.com

Auto Start Stop function.

A clever way to save fuel: the Auto Start Stop function turns off the engine each time the vehicle comes to a complete halt - such as at traffic lights - and restarts it automatically. A reduction in fuel consumption is the result.

The principle is simple: if the engine is not running, it cannot consume fuel. The Auto Start Stop function turns off the engine whenever it is not needed. In a traffic jam or in stop-and-go traffic, simply putting your BMW into neutral and taking your foot from the clutch will activate the function. "Start Stop" on the Info Display signals that the engine has been turned off.

To set off again, just put your BMW back into gear: the moment you depress the clutch, the engine immediately springs back to life and you can drive on without a moment's delay.

Driving comfort and driving safety are not affected by the Auto Start Stop function. The function is not activated, for example, until the engine has reached the ideal running temperature. The same applies if the air conditioner has not yet brought the cabin to the desired temperature, if the battery is not adequately charged or if the driver moves the steering wheel.

The Auto Start Stop function is coordinated by a central control unit that monitors data from all relevant sensors, the starter motor and the alternator. If necessary for comfort or safety, the control unit will automatically restart the engine: for example, if the vehicle begins to roll, the battery charge falls too low or condensation forms on the windscreen.

Furthermore, the system also recognises the difference between a temporary stop and the end of the trip. It will not restart the engine if driver's seatbelt is undone, or if the door or bonnet is open. If desired, the Auto Start Stop function can be completely deactivated with the press of a button.

When used consistently, the Auto Start Stop function delivers significant reductions in fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.

This clearly states the start/stop function is NOT activated if the AC has not yet brought the cabin to the desired temperature.

Diver624
01-11-2011, 06:32 AM
Nope. Time for you to do some of your own work.

I think you have to prove that something exists rather than me proving something does not.

Diver624
01-11-2011, 06:37 AM
From http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37288

Fordís Auto Start-Stop not only improves fuel economy but allows the heater and A/C to work normally according to Ford engineering representatives.

I'm not saying it can't be done, only that it isn't done yet. The article quotes Ford engineers as to what will be done, not what exists today.

The question was that with start/stop feature does the AC keep running and it doesn't.

dunderhi
01-11-2011, 02:23 PM
I'm not saying it can't be done, only that it isn't done yet. The article quotes Ford engineers as to what will be done, not what exists today.

The question was that with start/stop feature does the AC keep running and it doesn't.

Sorry, I didn't perceive such a fine nuance in your question. My bad. I believe BMW Auto-Start-Stop will restart the engine if the cabin exceeds the desired interior climate conditions. I've used it in Europe in the summer, and never noticed the interior of the car getting too hot. I wish my 335d already had this feature.

raleedy
01-11-2011, 03:28 PM
I think you have to prove that something exists rather than me proving something does not.

You are not the boss of me. Just in terms of posting comments on a board like this, I think there is a more important rule: not to post things if you don't know whether or not they are right.

Diver624
01-12-2011, 07:20 AM
You are not the boss of me. Just in terms of posting comments on a board like this, I think there is a more important rule: not to post things if you don't know whether or not they are right.

I am right. When cars equipped with start/stop systems are not running their AC compressors do not run and will not supply any cooling which was the original question. They might start automatically when the cabin temp. rises by a pre-set amount to cool it off but as of now the engine has to be running to for the AC to supply cool air.
The reason is that although modern AC compressors are variable speed and require less HP to drive then older designs they still require quite a few HP to operate (much more so than other items like water pumps, etc.) so an electric motor of the required size especially one running off a 12 volt battery is not presently workable.
That isn't to say that it won't be possible shortly but for cars available today there is no cabin cooling unless the engine is running and that was the only point I was making and that was the original question.
I think this topic has now been exhausted.

dunderhi
01-12-2011, 10:15 AM
I am right. When cars equipped with start/stop systems are not running their AC compressors do not run and will not supply any cooling which was the original question. They might start automatically when the cabin temp. rises by a pre-set amount to cool it off but as of now the engine has to be running to for the AC to supply cool air.
The reason is that although modern AC compressors are variable speed and require less HP to drive then older designs they still require quite a few HP to operate (much more so than other items like water pumps, etc.) so an electric motor of the required size especially one running off a 12 volt battery is not presently workable. That isn't to say that it won't be possible shortly but for cars available today there is no cabin cooling unless the engine is running and that was the only point I was making and that was the original question.
I think this topic has now been exhausted.

Yes, this topic is exhausted, unless of course you are not as right as you claim.

Ford is planning to have Auto Start-Stop with running the A/C compressor in their non-hybrid cars starting 2012 cars. Hybrids already have this capability. "The Fusion has an electric air conditioning compressor, to cool the cabin when the gasoline engine is off." http://carspondent.com/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid/

Maybe, the attached presentation of how electrically driven A/C works will help. Both of my 2007 Mercedes' had the 12V cold-storage electirc drive A/C as described in the presentation. I would assume that all non-hybrid cars with Auto Start-Stop have this capability too. Ford's announcement isn't a technological leap, it's just explaining something that is new to their U.S. customers. The full electric driven system was introduced in the Prius in 2003.