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View Full Version : Latest Issue of Consumer Reports on BMW


darbyogill
03-08-2011, 09:27 PM
I don't give a fck what Consumer Reports says.

That is all.

AlexK
03-08-2011, 11:25 PM
Smart man :thumbup:

need4speed
03-09-2011, 07:00 AM
No car is does everything perfectly. BMW is great for the driving experience. If you want bullet proof reliability, look else where. You pay your $ (lots of them) and take your chances. N4S

02BMW530
03-09-2011, 07:44 AM
There was a thread very similar to this elsewhere, either OT or General Automotive.

I have a hard time believing an unbiased, neutral reporting agency as well. The way they look at all aspects of the car and report the whole picture is simply unacceptable!


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captainaudio
03-09-2011, 08:04 AM
There was a thread very similar to this elsewhere, either OT or General Automotive.

I have a hard time believing an unbiased, neutral reporting agency as well. The way they look at all aspects of the car and report the whole picture is simply unacceptable!


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+1

I hate it when people try to cloud the issue by presenting facts. Facts are for people that don't know how to argue.

CA

02BMW530
03-09-2011, 08:10 AM
+1

I hate it when people try to cloud the issue by presenting facts. Facts are for people that don't know how to argue.

CA

CR just obviously isn't aware of what BMWs are! Driving experience (....when it runs)!

They also don't know how awesome a dealership is, that's why owners keep going back!

BMW isn't what it used to be by any means, time to admit it. The Bangle cars were the end of reliable cars. Obviously their styling wasn't too blame, but those models are when serious quality issues started to pop up.


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MarcA78
03-09-2011, 08:17 AM
The Bangle cars were the end of reliable cars. Obviously their styling wasn't too blame, but those models are when serious quality issues started to pop up.

Charlie Sheen? Must be. Only an INSANE person would say that BMWs have become less reliable over the years.

dpritchett
03-09-2011, 08:35 AM
Facts not withstanding, there is always an element of subjectivity in a ranking like CR. The reliability ratings that CR uses are generated mostly by consumer survey ... subscribers reporting issues... which deals with expectations, propensity to take the time to fill out the survey, etc.

Do we all think i-drive is terrible, confusing, etc. or do you take 20 minutes to work thru the menu's to see what's there and how it works. I notice that many other car companies have started using similar control knobs... yet CR always knocks BMW for complicated, confusing controls.

My non-turbo 325xi has been remarkably reliable so far - I hope I don't come out into the driveway tomorrow and fnd it collapsed into a pile of bolts and nuts....

02BMW530
03-09-2011, 09:08 AM
You are 100% right. But... Everyone (magazines, newspapers, etc) says that newer versions of idrive (now in what, it's 3rd generation?) is still harder, more time consuming and less intuitive to use then the Audi and Lexus (et al) equivalent.

I'd hate for this to become some full blown issue of BMW reliability and quality with the pre- and post- Bangle car owners choosing sides.

Maybe CR expects more/better of BMW then other companies, perhaps BMW is held to a higher standard. But is that because BMW used to blow away the competition years ago (remember when BMW couldn't lose a single test in a magazine)? Has the competition gotten better while BMW has stalled?




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darbyogill
03-09-2011, 03:54 PM
an unbiased, neutral reporting agency as well

What does FOX News have to do with this?

beashonda
03-09-2011, 05:57 PM
Interesting that they list the 535XI as the worst of the worst. What is that about? I understand there were HPFP issues, but that would include the RWD and AWD? :dunno:

RicN
03-09-2011, 06:40 PM
I don't give a fck what Consumer Reports says.

That is all.

apparently you do. you made a thread for it after all.:rofl:

but....but.... we bought BMW for the handling !!

whether it's a bmw, mercedes, audi, ferrari or whatever, it's just a phucking car people. relax. you buy what you want. there is no need to be defensive when somebody don't agree with your opinion about your car.

tonyspumoni
03-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Facts not withstanding, there is always an element of subjectivity in a ranking like CR. The reliability ratings that CR uses are generated mostly by consumer survey ... subscribers reporting issues... which deals with expectations, propensity to take the time to fill out the survey, etc.

Do we all think i-drive is terrible, confusing, etc. or do you take 20 minutes to work thru the menu's to see what's there and how it works. I notice that many other car companies have started using similar control knobs... yet CR always knocks BMW for complicated, confusing controls.

My non-turbo 325xi has been remarkably reliable so far - I hope I don't come out into the driveway tomorrow and fnd it collapsed into a pile of bolts and nuts....

Great post whose views I share. The scales upon which consumers rate their purchases are not the same. If you buy a Civic and something rattles a bit, that's ok, because you were thrifty and you got a great deal for your 18k or whatever. Now imagine shelling out 50k for a loaded 335i. Would your disappointment with that same rattle be the same? I doubt it very seriously. When you buy top shelf you simply expect top shelf.

swajames
03-09-2011, 10:47 PM
Great post whose views I share. The scales upon which consumers rate their purchases are not the same. If you buy a Civic and something rattles a bit, that's ok, because you were thrifty and you got a great deal for your 18k or whatever. Now imagine shelling out 50k for a loaded 335i. Would your disappointment with that same rattle be the same? I doubt it very seriously. When you buy top shelf you simply expect top shelf.

The problem with this theory is that Lexus, Mercedes and Porsche all outscore BMW on the JD Power dependability studies in addition to CR. Buyers of these brands are no less (and sometimes more) demanding in their expectations than BMW customers, yet the brands still score well in the reliability and satisfaction surveys.

335i Driver
03-10-2011, 05:24 AM
The problem with this theory is that Lexus, Mercedes and Porsche all outscore BMW on the JD Power dependability studies in addition to CR. Buyers of these brands are no less (and sometimes more) demanding in their expectations than BMW customers, yet the brands still score well in the reliability and satisfaction surveys.

There you go bringing up facts. Shame on you. Remember facts are for people that don't know how to argue.

mhrir
03-10-2011, 06:28 AM
Has anyone purchased a BMW for its reliability? Show of hands? That is what I thought... no one.

What makes BMW different is the level of service you receive (at least in my case). I don't care if I have problems with the car as long as I don't have problems with the service. That is what keeps me coming back (and also the way BMWs drive).

swajames
03-10-2011, 06:44 AM
Has anyone purchased a BMW for its reliability? Show of hands? That is what I thought... no one.

What makes BMW different is the level of service you receive (at least in my case). I don't care if I have problems with the car as long as I don't have problems with the service. That is what keeps me coming back (and also the way BMWs drive).

Service varies from dealer to dealer and from person to person. That said, service at BMW dealerships is on average likely to be no better and anecdotally worse than, say, Lexus dealerships. Your perspective on not caring on having problems with your car is likely to change if the car is out of warranty - and with a Z4M that won't be too far away if it isn't already out of warranty. Ultimately, it's apologist thinking like this that keeps things at their current mediocre level. What incentive does BMW (or any other premium brand) have to do a better job in building a car if customers are prepared to tolerate mediocrity in terms of build quality and reliability?

mhrir
03-10-2011, 08:20 AM
Service varies from dealer to dealer and from person to person. That said, service at BMW dealerships is on average likely to be no better and anecdotally worse than, say, Lexus dealerships. Your perspective on not caring on having problems with your car is likely to change if the car is out of warranty - and with a Z4M that won't be too far away if it isn't already out of warranty. Ultimately, it's apologist thinking like this that keeps things at their current mediocre level. What incentive does BMW have to do a better job in building a car if customers tolerate mediocrity in terms of build quality and reliability?

You would be right to assume my Z4M would be near the end of its warranty. Lucky for me it was still a new leftover in March of 2009. If it needs repairs after that, then so be it. I own it because of my passion for cars, not the probability of needing repair. If someone can't afford to own a premium brand car past the warranty which are known to have higher maintenance/repair costs and often lower reliability then they should stay within their means. Agreed? This is why I don't go buy a used Ferrari 599 Fiorano and then bitch about the costs of ownership.

As I said, the service I receive from my dealer is what keeps me coming back. Obviously I cannot comment on other dealers and was not intending to imply otherwise. If my local dealer had terrible service, I would either go to another dealer or not continue to purchase new BMWs. VWs are on that list for me currently as my local dealer is awful.

Finally you may want to look up what "apologist" means since you are clearly not using it correctly here. How is my lack of concern for the reliability of BMW a defense of the "current mediocre level"? What an incredibly silly thing for you to say. It would be great if BMW made the most reliable cars on the road. What I don't understand is why people get so hung up on reliability. Assuming you are driving the market and buying new ones, then stop buying them if it is such an important factor in your buying decision.

swajames
03-10-2011, 09:27 AM
Finally you may want to look up what "apologist" means since you are clearly not using it correctly here. How is my lack of concern for the reliability of BMW a defense of the "current mediocre level"? What an incredibly silly thing for you to say. It would be great if BMW made the most reliable cars on the road. What I don't understand is why people get so hung up on reliability. Assuming you are driving the market and buying new ones, then stop buying them if it is such an important factor in your buying decision.

a·pol·o·gist [uh-pol-uh-jist]

***8211;noun 1. A person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

I used the term correctly and in context. You've stated in your posts a rather odd belief that you don't care about reliability and don't care if you have problems with your car because when you do have to visit the dealer to have these issues addressed you get treated well. This is hardly surprising, as the dealer is being paid by BMW to put these issues right and an unreliable car is, of course, to a dealer the gift that keeps on giving... You also said that it is the dealer service that keeps you coming back to BMW, clearly prioritizing that over the more logical benefit of not having to visit the dealer as frequently in the first instance. As I said in my post, this is precisely the kind of thinking that lets BMW and others get away with mediocre quality.

Has anyone purchased a BMW for its reliability? Show of hands? That is what I thought... no one.

What makes BMW different is the level of service you receive (at least in my case). I don't care if I have problems with the car as long as I don't have problems with the service. That is what keeps me coming back (and also the way BMWs drive).

mhrir
03-10-2011, 02:35 PM
a·pol·o·gist [uh-pol-uh-jist]

–noun 1. A person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

I used the term correctly and in context. You've stated in your posts a rather odd belief that you don't care about reliability and don't care if you have problems with your car because when you do have to visit the dealer to have these issues addressed you get treated well. This is hardly surprising, as the dealer is being paid by BMW to put these issues right and an unreliable car is, of course, to a dealer the gift that keeps on giving... You also said that it is the dealer service that keeps you coming back to BMW, clearly prioritizing that over the more logical benefit of not having to visit the dealer as frequently in the first instance. As I said in my post, this is precisely the kind of thinking that lets BMW and others get away with mediocre quality.

Defining apolgist only hurts your position. Witin that definition is the word defense [dih-fens] defined as: a speech, argument, etc., in vindication. I am not defending the quality of BMWs, therefore I am not an apologist. So you are in fact still incorrect. The problem with your logic is you purport indifference to reliability has some negative effect on quality. Obviously it does not.

Lets try an example to help you understand... Grass is green. A report comes out that dark green grass is better than light green grass because it grows better. I then say: Dark green grass may grow better but I prefer the way light green grass feels on my feet, so I am willing to deal with light green grass not growing as well. I may have to replant some areas in my yard more frequently but the way it feels on my feet is what is important to me. That belief is not allowing the farmer that grows the grass seed to "get away" with mediocre quality. The flaw of your arguement is your assumption that as long as people continue to buy light green grass, the farmer has no desire to improve the quality.

swajames
03-10-2011, 03:51 PM
Defining apolgist only hurts your position. Witin that definition is the word defense [dih-fens] defined as: a speech, argument, etc., in vindication. I am not defending the quality of BMWs, therefore I am not an apologist. So you are in fact still incorrect. The problem with your logic is you purport indifference to reliability has some negative effect on quality. Obviously it does not.

Lets try an example to help you understand... Grass is green. A report comes out that dark green grass is better than light green grass because it grows better. I then say: Dark green grass may grow better but I prefer the way light green grass feels on my feet, so I am willing to deal with light green grass not growing as well. I may have to replant some areas in my yard more frequently but the way it feels on my feet is what is important to me. That belief is not allowing the farmer that grows the grass seed to "get away" with mediocre quality. The flaw of your arguement is your assumption that as long as people continue to buy light green grass, the farmer has no desire to improve the quality.

That really wasn't the position that you postulated, however. In your initial post, your opening paragraph tacitly acknowledges that there are reliability concerns. Your second then goes on to essentially excuse and defend them, noting that you are willing to trade the poor reliability which you acknoweldge exists in your first paragraph for the service your receive when you visit the dealer and the quality of the drive.

Ultimately, it is quite probable that a customer indifference to reliability does indeed have a negative effect on quality. Enhancements in build quality and engineering to help deliver better reliability costs money and diminishes margin. Mercedes went through this a few years ago - and it found that its customers weren't indifferent and demanded better. Mercedes is now building a much better car than they did. It's BMW which is now in the doldrums, and customer indifference provides little incentive for BMW to improve.

George Allan
03-11-2011, 05:42 AM
CHECK OUT THIS LINK.

autonews.indiacar.com/news/n135632.htm

The ADAC does not report anything like the CR did

George Allan

mhrir
03-11-2011, 06:30 AM
That really wasn't the position that you postulated, however. In your initial post, your opening paragraph tacitly acknowledges that there are reliability concerns. Your second then goes on to essentially excuse and defend them, noting that you are willing to trade the poor reliability which you acknoweldge exists in your first paragraph for the service your receive when you visit the dealer and the quality of the drive.

Ultimately, it is quite probable that a customer indifference to reliability does indeed have a negative effect on quality. Enhancements in build quality and engineering to help deliver better reliability costs money and diminishes margin. Mercedes went through this a few years ago - and it found that its customers weren't indifferent and demanded better. Mercedes is now building a much better car than they did. It's BMW which is now in the doldrums, and customer indifference provides little incentive for BMW to improve.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for debate. Unfortunately putting words in my mouth and repeating your contention ad nauseam are boring, so this must end.

swajames
03-11-2011, 08:13 AM
I appreciate your enthusiasm for debate. Unfortunately putting words in my mouth and repeating your contention ad nauseam are boring, so this must end.

The words essentially came from your own posts.

JimD1
03-12-2011, 08:05 AM
CR has a long history on cars with some of their "reports" being proven to be deceptive at best. Check out this article:

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/consumer-reports-never-to-be-truted-ar41569.html

You can find others if you google around. To get a better idea of car reliability I like www.truedelta.com. If you do a search on the truedelta website you can get information on what to watch out for in the CR data. I think it boils down to very subjective "data" from owners combined with occasionally very subjective to the point of misleading "reviews". If you realize these limitations CR can give you some useful information. Just realize they are not unbiased like they claim.

A likely contributor to low ratings for BMW are the expectations of BMW owners. CR leaves it up to the owners to decide what is a "significant issue". If BMW owners expect more of their cars than Chevy owners, it shows up in CR data as worse reliability. TrueDelta tracks the number of trips to the dealer. I think this is less subjective. TrueDelta also lets you review what these trips were for. Also useful. TrueDelta shows normally aspirated recent BMWs as having very good reliability. Their numbers for the turbo cars is average or a bit worse.

Jim

captainaudio
03-12-2011, 02:26 PM
+1

Those BMW drivers who expect their cars to be reliable are idiots.

CA

swajames
03-12-2011, 02:26 PM
CR has a long history on cars with some of their "reports" being proven to be deceptive at best. Check out this article:

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/consumer-reports-never-to-be-truted-ar41569.html

You can find others if you google around. To get a better idea of car reliability I like www.truedelta.com. If you do a search on the truedelta website you can get information on what to watch out for in the CR data. I think it boils down to very subjective "data" from owners combined with occasionally very subjective to the point of misleading "reviews". If you realize these limitations CR can give you some useful information. Just realize they are not unbiased like they claim.

A likely contributor to low ratings for BMW are the expectations of BMW owners. CR leaves it up to the owners to decide what is a "significant issue". If BMW owners expect more of their cars than Chevy owners, it shows up in CR data as worse reliability. TrueDelta tracks the number of trips to the dealer. I think this is less subjective. TrueDelta also lets you review what these trips were for. Also useful. TrueDelta shows normally aspirated recent BMWs as having very good reliability. Their numbers for the turbo cars is average or a bit worse.

Jim

Porsche, Mercedes and Lexus owners expect as much and probably more than BMW owners - yet the brands outscore BMW in the US reliability rankings. The argument that BMW owners somehow have higher expectations than, say, Porsche owners really doesn't hold any water.

As for CR being biased, I don't buy it. And I certainly don't buy the TrueDelta story on CR. Karesh has a product he is trying to sell, and is far from impartial. TrueDelta is no less self selecting.

gtxragtop
03-13-2011, 05:01 AM
One would think that most folks would have higher expectations on a vehicle costing 2-3X a Chevy to perform better. This is not unreasonable either. I've owned Dodge, Chevy vehicles up until recently. In 06 I bought a new Toyota Highlander for my wife. 75K miles on it and I have to say it has been trouble free. I change the oil/filer and other normal maintenance only. CR rates this vehicle highly and I agree. Looking at the 03 BMW 530 data, the survey sure looks spot on to me.

captainaudio
03-13-2011, 07:01 AM
Porsche, Mercedes and Lexus owners expect as much and probably more than BMW owners - yet the brands outscore BMW in the US reliability rankings. The argument that BMW owners somehow have higher expectations than, say, Porsche owners really doesn't hold any water.

As for CR being biased, I don't buy it. And I certainly don't buy the TrueDelta story on CR. Karesh has a product he is trying to sell, and is far from impartial. TrueDelta is no less self selecting.

The brands you cited, Mercedes, Porsche and Lexus are easily as complex and sophisticated as a BMW. The fact that the BMWs may have what many consider to be better driving dynamics (in the case of Lexus and Mercedes) is no excuse whatsoever for sub-standard reliability. As BMW owners who have spent their hard earned money on the cars we should acceot nothiong less than highly reliable vehicles and BMW shoule be made very aware of that fact.

If BMW intends to posture their cars as "Ultimate Driving Machines" they are going to have to be reliable. If not they should add an asterisk "*When it's running".

CA

thumper_330
03-13-2011, 08:12 AM
If BMW intends to posture their cars as "Ultimate Driving Machines" they are going to have to be reliable. If not they should add an asterisk "*When it's running".

I agree completely... but remember that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" quite some time ago. BMW doesn't sell them any more; they sell "Joy" :p