PDA

View Full Version : Which 5-30 oil is the best?


SHIFF
04-27-2011, 06:30 PM
I got 90,000 miles on my 02 525i, I know castrol is required but there are so many high mileage,edge,synthetic which one do you guys use.

tblt44
04-27-2011, 06:35 PM
:p

GSA1
04-27-2011, 06:40 PM
Castrol is preterred brand for your model BMW under a simple marketing agreement. Castrol Euro formula 0w-30 is LLO1 rated and a true synthetic, unlike the USA phony hydro-cracked formulas. There are other "approved" BMW LL01 oils too. BMW has an approved list with at leat 10 brands on it.

See discussion by those who know about this stuff @ bobistheoilguy.com.

540 M-Sport
04-27-2011, 07:09 PM
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

(in addition to the BMW High Performance Synthetic 5w-30 sold by the dealer)

"BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30 (only sold in AutoZone stores)
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40 (found just about any auto parts or "big box" store)
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30 (only found online directly from Pennzoil)
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30 (not sure where you can find this)"

BTW, I have never actually seen either the Pennzoil or Valvoline products specified, sold in a typical auto parts store. You will find the Pennzoil Platinum, but not the "Ultra" (LL=-01 approved) version. Same wtih Valvoline SynPower, it is not the LL-01 approved version you will find.

So that basically leaves you with three "approved" oils that are readily available.

franka
04-27-2011, 08:23 PM
Castrol is preterred brand for your model BMW under a simple marketing agreement. Castrol Euro formula 0w-30 is LLO1 rated and a true synthetic, unlike the USA phony hydro-cracked formulas. There are other "approved" BMW LL01 oils too. BMW has an approved list with at leat 10 brands on it.

See discussion by those who know about this stuff @ bobistheoilguy.com.

The true, true 100%, all new, materials, synthetics in 5W30 are too thin. They will ruin the engine.

franka
04-27-2011, 08:25 PM
Mobil 1 is one of the best at 5W30. I have some in my garage.

dms540i
04-27-2011, 08:48 PM
You might want to read this thread. Just my 2 cents. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=513698&highlight=oil+camp

02BMW530
04-27-2011, 09:13 PM
If you use the factory's oil life guidelines (15,000 miles), you're already 0 for 1. Change the oil every 7,500-10,000 miles. And if you change it that often, pretty much all synthetic oils will be fine, dependent on the weight.

I use Mobil 1 Extended Protection 5W30 and a Bosch filter, changed every 10,000 miles.


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

ncmallard78
04-28-2011, 04:48 PM
i like mobil lubricants and change my oil twice a year or every 6k miles...

PavelK313
04-28-2011, 05:06 PM
I been using castrol syntec and then switched to castrol edge when it came out.

Joe@Bavarian
04-28-2011, 05:24 PM
1. 90k is low mileage, with proper maintenance you will be asking this question @ 200K and above.

2. You are in USA so stick with "approved BMW LL01" for your car, should be 5w30.

3. Everyone has their favorite drink and to each their own. I like Scotch... LOL

4. I use MOTUL 8100 5W30 X-MAX with 186K on my car and I drive it harder than I should.

5. Any name brand "approved BMW LL01" should be fine. :)

bluebee
04-28-2011, 09:26 PM
I know castrol is required

How do you know that?

franka
04-28-2011, 09:51 PM
Most quality synthetics are better than the standard. Therefore sticking to the LL std is foolish.

Its like taking you car to the dealer all the time. BS.

menhir
04-29-2011, 07:43 AM
BB, the oil filler cap normally states that BMW recommends using Castrol. I'm guessing that's where the OP is getting this information.

agent15
04-29-2011, 09:20 AM
I'll submit that virtually any oil within the proper weight range, whether it be dino or synthetic, is fine as long as it's changed regularly (every 5,000). The synthetics can easily go longer than that, but for the cost of an oil change versus the cost of major engine surgery there's really no point in pressing one's luck.

bluebee
04-29-2011, 09:26 AM
I'm guessing that's where the OP is getting this information.

I'm not so sure. I know all about the oil filler cap - but nowhere does it say that "Castrol is required" so I was interested in hearing from the OP where he got that information from.

See, for example:
- Why does BMW mold "Use Castrol" on the oil filler cap (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5781836&postcount=21)) (2 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527109)) (3 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4304876&postcount=94)) (4 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371807)) (5 (http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx)) (6 (http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=8268003&contentId=6003234)) & what is the definitive list of BMW-approved motor oils (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379224))

The OP could have gotten that information from a friend, a salesperson, pure hearsay, or from the dealer, or even from a mechanic. Certainly the BMW marketing propaganda (as shown above) promulgates all sorts of misinformation, especially about fluids (catering to the incessant desire of BMW enthusiasts to be, somehow, different, or better, than the run-of-the-mill proletariat).

To the OP, please be responsive (and worth helping):
Where did you get the information that Castrol is required?

02BMW530
04-29-2011, 10:37 AM
Now now, Blue, it's easy to see the molding and think it was required. If it's your first BMW, some people (my fiancÚ included) just chalk it up to "well, it is a BMW..." and think that it is required.


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

franka
04-29-2011, 11:00 AM
BMW recommends a lot of things that we know better than to do like blind hemmimngs.

02BMW530
04-29-2011, 11:06 AM
You, I, and others here know that, but others may not.

When I first bought mine, and before I toiled around on here, I figured BMW parts were the best quality, especially at it's price point. As we've seen, this is not the case.


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

franka
04-29-2011, 12:20 PM
A BMW engine has the same materials inside as many other brands. Same bearings, rings, materials, clearances, seals, cyl etching, etc.

There is nothing special that requires anything besides a good quality oil.

Jason5driver
04-29-2011, 12:55 PM
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/images/afl_qt_350pxh.jpg

franka
04-29-2011, 01:11 PM
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/images/afl_qt_350pxh.jpg


That's really helpful. :rolleyes:

Jason5driver
04-29-2011, 01:13 PM
That's really helpful. :rolleyes:

The question was, which oil is the best...
I posted a picture of what I thought.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx

dvsgene
04-29-2011, 01:40 PM
The question was, which oil is the best...
I posted a picture of what I thought.


No, the question was which 5-30 is best. :thumbup:

You posted a 5-w40. Not helpful :dunno:

dvsgene
04-29-2011, 01:48 PM
Some things never change, so I created a new avatar for you. :rofl:

edmonem
04-29-2011, 01:49 PM
does it really need to be 5-30? i mean, here where its always warm, the folks dont really care much if its 5-30 or 5-40...wouldnt the weight of the oil matter on the areas outside temperature? im just wondering...ive never used anything on any of my cars (previously owned or new) other than royal purple 5-30...

dvsgene
04-29-2011, 01:53 PM
It's a heated debate like any other oil thread. Rather than look at the weight, one really should look at the viscosity rating per the BMW specs and try to get close to that. If you look at SAE specs, some 5-30 are on the thin side and some on the thick. Personally, I go with whatever synthetic is on sale and change it every 5k, but that's just me.

Jason5driver
04-29-2011, 02:19 PM
No, the question was which 5-30 is best. :thumbup:

You posted a 5-w40. Not helpful :dunno:

5W-40 is better IMO.
:D

Some things never change, so I created a new avatar for you. :rofl:

:rofl:
LOL!
Yes...
But you know there is a reason...
Tried and true...

franka
04-29-2011, 03:22 PM
Some things never change, so I created a new avatar for you. :rofl:

Amsoil is a dishsoap.

franka
04-29-2011, 03:24 PM
does it really need to be 5-30? i mean, here where its always warm, the folks dont really care much if its 5-30 or 5-40...wouldnt the weight of the oil matter on the areas outside temperature? im just wondering...ive never used anything on any of my cars (previously owned or new) other than royal purple 5-30...

I'm running 20W50 in Dallas.

serie2009
04-29-2011, 03:37 PM
Castrol high mileage or the "dealer prefrence" Mobil1

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Bimmer App

chiefwej
04-29-2011, 03:50 PM
This:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n176/chiefwej/temp/photo.jpg


Always look for this:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n176/chiefwej/temp/photo2.jpg

540 M-Sport
04-29-2011, 04:08 PM
1. 90k is low mileage, with proper maintenance you will be asking this question @ 200K and above.

2. You are in USA so stick with "approved BMW LL01" for your car, should be 5w30.

3. Everyone has their favorite drink and to each their own. I like Scotch... LOL

4. I use MOTUL 8100 5W30 X-MAX with 186K on my car and I drive it harder than I should.

5. Any name brand "approved BMW LL01" should be fine. :)

Should be 5w-30? Then why does BMWNA specifically recommend TWO LL-01 approved oils that are different weights? One is a 0w-30 and another is a 0w-40... :tsk:

See my previous post above.

franka
04-29-2011, 04:35 PM
This:

Always look for this:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n176/chiefwej/temp/photo2.jpg

Why? In my prior post I noted that there is nothing unique in a BMW engine that is not in many other brands.

So why the allegiance to the spec other than its what was always recommended? I'm challenging 'recommended'. That alone isn't a sufficient reason.

What happens if one doesn't use the exact spec but uses a top quality brand name synthetics. Is there some kind of damage?

Joe@Bavarian
04-29-2011, 04:46 PM
Should be 5w-30? Then why does BMWNA specifically recommend TWO LL-01 approved oils that are different weights? One is a 0w-30 and another is a 0w-40... :tsk:

See my previous post above.

I was being helpful and answering the OP's question with accurate information from BMW and the knowledge I gained as master ASE technician of over 6 years. It looks as if BMW recommends 5w30. They also acknowledge others.:tsk:

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

Required maintenance work or services should be performed for your vehicle by your authorized BMW center.

BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.

BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil* (BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866)

* Does not apply to M vehicles - see below

BMW recommends that you check your engine oil level whenever you add fuel to your vehicle.

If you need to add oil between oil changes and BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is unavailable, you may top up the oil level with one of the following approved synthetic oils. For information on checking your engine oil level refer to your vehicle's Owner's Manual.

The oils listed below meet BMW's Long-life rating and are acceptable for use in BMW Passenger vehicles and SAVs in the US market with gasoline engines.

BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:


Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30

Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40

Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30

Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30


Use only oils with an API rating of SM or higher.

The choice of the right SAE grade is based on the climatic conditions in the region in which you normally drive your BMW.

bluebee
04-29-2011, 05:15 PM
does it really need to be 5-30?

Even BMW says the viscosity doesn't matter (what they care about is the long-life 2001 specification).

You ... do not need to pay specific attention to the viscosity class

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=232470&stc=1&d=1275263323

bluebee
04-29-2011, 05:34 PM
What happens if one ... uses a top quality brand name synthetics

OMG! Heaven forbid. What happens at the vehicle end of life in that case is dictated by the BMW god and is 'exactly' what happens to the soul when a Roman Catholic converts to a Protestant as dictated by the doctrine of Petrolism!
- The fundamentals of BMW fluid Petrolism (1 (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=517469))



Jewish
Catholic
Protestant

...


BMW-approved oils only
BMW-approved oils and similar oils only

BMW-approved oils and similar oils and quality oils only

...


At the end of its useful life, your bimmer blissfully goes to BMW pearly gates
At the end of its useful life, your bimmer lingers on in Germanic purgatorial limbo
At the end of its useful life, your bimmer heads directly to a permanent Bavarian hell

...
Pick one.

franka
04-29-2011, 05:35 PM
LL is Long Life. There are a number of LL oils that do not have the infamous LL01 spec on their label. But they are still rated as LL oils. Especially if one changes their oil frequently I can't see buying LL01 oil.

It makes sense that BMW would spec an LL01 based on the long interval changes they recommend. Other than that I haven't heard a good reason to use LL01 oil.

bmw_n00b13
04-29-2011, 06:23 PM
Use a 0w40 synthetic. Better than 5w30. Learn about lubrication and oil. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

Running 20w50 will destroy your engine if it doesn't kill your starter first. There is no reason to use it. Claiming otherwise is uneducated lunacy.

franka
04-29-2011, 08:21 PM
Use a 0w40 synthetic. Better than 5w30. Learn about lubrication and oil. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

Running 20w50 will destroy your engine if it doesn't kill your starter first. There is no reason to use it. Claiming otherwise is uneducated lunacy.

He has some interesting things to say but he is also wrong about a few things.

chiefwej
04-29-2011, 08:28 PM
He has some interesting things to say but he is also wrong about a few things.
Well for more than you ever wanted to know about oils there is always BOBISTHEOILGUY.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/)

franka
04-29-2011, 08:58 PM
Well for more than you ever wanted to know about oils there is always BOBISTHEOILGUY.com (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/)

Been there too.

franka
04-29-2011, 09:03 PM
Running 20w50 will destroy your engine if it doesn't kill your starter first. There is no reason to use it. Claiming otherwise is uneducated lunacy.

Got 231K miles and its running great. Still on the original starter too.

And your special oil credentials are .... ?

redbull713
04-29-2011, 10:03 PM
Got 231K miles and its running great. Still on the original starter too.

And your special oil credentials are .... ?

Many people act as if they speak facts, but seldom do. Don't worry about him Franka.

franka
04-30-2011, 07:13 AM
Many people act as if they speak facts, but seldom do. Don't worry about him Franka.

So true. He's no concern, but thanks for the support.

redbull713
05-01-2011, 04:12 PM
So true. He's no concern, but thanks for the support.

Anytime.:thumbup:

Jason5driver
05-02-2011, 08:52 AM
Amsoil is a dishsoap.
LOL!
It does have a lot of cleaning stuff in it, but Amsoil is a true synthetic.

Use a 0w40 synthetic. Better than 5w30. Learn about lubrication and oil. http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

Running 20w50 will destroy your engine if it doesn't kill your starter first. There is no reason to use it. Claiming otherwise is uneducated lunacy.

I kind of agree on this...
20w-50 is some crazy thick oil....

Got 231K miles and its running great. Still on the original starter too.

And your special oil credentials are .... ?
And your credentials...???
LOL!
:rofl:

franka
05-02-2011, 01:36 PM
My aging indy, who has done occasional work on my car, and has been doing BMW exclusively for 30+ years, suggests Castrol Syn 20-50 although he has other oils too.

So I guess there will be a lot of work for him replacing all those motors and starters. :rofl:

I live in Dallas and my car is garaged, so its never started when very cold.

Not like parked on a street in Canada. A condition that the BMW spec has to consider.

Jason5driver
05-02-2011, 01:56 PM
I understand...
My mechanic in Hawaii used Mobil 1 15w-50 extended.

franka
05-02-2011, 05:59 PM
Running 20w50 will destroy your engine if it doesn't kill your starter first. There is no reason to use it. Claiming otherwise is uneducated lunacy.


Still waiting on your credentials.

Plus you missed Bluebee's fact above (link in post 36) that in essence says " Even BMW says the viscosity doesn't matter (what they care about is the long-life 2001 specification).

Thank you BB. :)

Westech
05-05-2011, 04:26 PM
Well, at least it appears we're all CHANGING OUR OIL. That's a start.

IMHO, Lubro-moly seems a reasonable choice.

AnotherGeezer
05-05-2011, 04:32 PM
I've had good luck with the newer Pennzoil formulations.

540 M-Sport
05-05-2011, 04:36 PM
I've had good luck with the newer Pennzoil formulations.

And they are well regarded at www.bobistheoilguy.com...but seriously, have any of us had "bad luck" or an oil related engine failure or major problem?

AnotherGeezer
05-05-2011, 04:50 PM
And they are well regarded at www.bobistheoilguy.com...but seriously, have any of us had "bad luck" or an oil related engine failure or major problem?

As long as we stay within BMW's recommended specs, we will probably all do well.

bobdmac
05-05-2011, 04:52 PM
...but seriously, have any of us had "bad luck" or an oil related engine failure or major problem?

Bingo.

franka
05-05-2011, 05:02 PM
BMW spec is LL01. Which translated means Long Life and the 5-30 wt is designated because it will work in almost all climates. The 01 means its the first and only spec.

So now the magical and special specification has been outed.

The King has no clothes.

Any quality, long life spec, multi wt oil is fine. The spec even states that the wt or viscosities can be changed as necessary.

franka
05-05-2011, 05:07 PM
I've had good luck with the newer Pennzoil formulations.

So what does that mean? Good luck? How do you know? Your engine hasn't exploded or started to burn oil and smoke? The spec is new and you've had good luck in that time period?

Seriously people. If you want to know if your oil is good for your motor, send a used sample out for testing.

Good luck?

AnotherGeezer
05-05-2011, 05:20 PM
So what does that mean?

No leaks, great gas mileage, and no catastrophic destruction.

02BMW530
05-05-2011, 05:25 PM
Would switching to Mobil 1 0W40 (LL01 approved) be a good move in warmer climates (I.e. South Texas?)


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

thecushion
05-05-2011, 05:35 PM
just use water.......... :D 0w-0

franka
05-05-2011, 05:52 PM
Would switching to Mobil 1 0W40 (LL01 approved) be a good move in warmer climates (I.e. South Texas?)

Yes of course. When your motor warms up the oil changes to as if it was a 40 wt. It doesn't really matter what the outside temperature is.

Mobil sells a lot of 0-40. If it didn't work they would be out of business and engines all over would be failing.

A BMW engine is built with the same materials as many other engines. And to very similar specs. There is no mystery except that which marketing for BMW and Mobile tries to make.

chiefwej
05-05-2011, 06:12 PM
BMW spec is LL01. Which translated means Long Life and the 5-30 wt is designated because it will work in almost all climates. The 01 means its the first and only spec.

So now the magical and special specification has been outed.

The King has no clothes.

Any quality, long life spec, multi wt oil is fine. The spec even states that the wt or viscosities can be changed as necessary.

Actually the 01 means that the spec was established in 2001. There was a newer spec (LL-04) put out in 2004, but BMW states that oil should not be used in gasoline engines in North America. It was established for the new diesel engines.

dms540i
05-05-2011, 06:20 PM
And wasn't there also a LL98 spec? Might that refer in some way to 1998? Why is this such a puzzle?

chiefwej
05-05-2011, 06:27 PM
And wasn't there also a LL98 spec? Might that refer in some way to 1998? Why is this such a puzzle?
Yes, but the LL-98 spec was fully superseded by the LL-01.

franka
05-05-2011, 07:49 PM
Why is this such a puzzle?

Thank you. That is my point here and in recent oil threads.

Its not a puzzle. The king has no clothes. The spec has been outed.

pleiades
05-05-2011, 08:33 PM
My car screams, "Rotella T6 All the Way Baaybeeeeeh!"

Gee I just love oil threads..... When's the next one?

MatWiz
05-05-2011, 08:38 PM
Some things never change, so I created a new avatar for you. :rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I dare you to use this avatar, Jason! :bustingup



No leaks, great gas mileage, and no catastrophic destruction.
You lucky bastered. :yikes:

mw

AnotherGeezer
05-06-2011, 05:04 AM
blind hemmimngs.

Frank discovers a new species.

News at 11:00.

granlund
05-06-2011, 06:02 AM
Would switching to Mobil 1 0W40 (LL01 approved) be a good move in warmer climates (I.e. South Texas?)


Sent from my iPhone using BimmerApp

I don't think it's quite necessary to use a 0w where the temperature does not drop below 50. I'd be more concerned that the 40-weight is not on the low end close to 30-weight when the outside temperature is 100 in the summer.

franka
05-06-2011, 07:06 AM
Frank discovers a new species.

News at 11:00.

Always editorial. Never any factually substantial contributions.

Good for comedy tv but fails to add to the body of knowledge.

doru
05-06-2011, 07:12 AM
I don't think it's quite necessary to use a 0w where the temperature does not drop below 50. I'd be more concerned that the 40-weight is not on the low end close to 30-weight when the outside temperature is 100 in the summer.

Ambient temperature has nothing to do with engine temperature.

AnotherGeezer
05-06-2011, 07:12 AM
Always editorial. Never any factually substantial contributions.

Good for comedy tv but fails to add to the body of knowledge.

Grumpy old fart. Skin as thin as cheap toilet paper. :D

franka
05-06-2011, 07:18 AM
All engines run at a relatively fixed temperature that is independent of ambient temperatures.

It can be negative 5 or positive 105 outside, yet your engine maintains a relatively stable oil temperature that is in the 200+ F range.

This is true no matter whether the oil is 0-40, 5-30, 20-50 etc.

I'm changing subject focus now so don't confuse with the above.

BMW suggests 5-30 or 0-40 because it will work in all climates cold or hot.

Its a safe catch all spec. A cover your arse spec.

When you understand this it is all quite simple.

This info has been posted many times before, since the beginning of the fest, but newbies need to learn.

granlund
05-06-2011, 09:10 AM
Ambient temperature has nothing to do with engine temperature.Engine coolant temperature perhaps. Oil temperature is balanced by coolant temperature, but will not have a lower temperature than the coolant in the engine block. Oil is cooled in the pan and that is only subjected to the ambient temperature.

High-VI (large range between cold and warm viscosity) have more viscosity-modifying polymers than a small-range low-VI oil. These polymers break down under high shear and heat under long operating time. A 0w40-grade oil might end up at 20-grade or even 10-grade after 15,000 miles if operated under high shear and temperature.

Besides, if 0w viscosity is low enough for adequate flow rate in an engine cold start at, for example -30F, don't you think a 5w, 10w or even a 15w would be adequate at cold start at 50F?

This is the reason why I change oil twice a year (fall and spring) in my car that I put ~10,000 miles on annually. 5,000 on 10w-40 for the summer and 5,000 on 0w/5w-30 in the winter.

franka
05-06-2011, 09:16 AM
Grumpy old fart. Skin as thin as cheap toilet paper. :D

More editorial crap. You keep proving my point(s).

Now you are adding juvenile name calling to the low road you yourself have chosen for some time.

As I said before, your comments add nothing to the BMW body of knowledge. The knowledge that most of us come here for.

Maybe you could try demonstrating the maturity that one would expect from a self professed geezer.

AnotherGeezer
05-06-2011, 11:08 AM
As I said before, your comments add nothing to the BMW body of knowledge. The knowledge that most of us come here for.

If you are changing springs you do not want to jack at the diff as it will keep the springs compressed. :eek:


Like this little nugget of valuable information? :tsk:

I stand by my comments frank and I won't tread on eggshells simply because you lack a sense of humor. If you do not value my contributions to the board then simply place me on your ignore list as your constant harping on me has become totally annoying.

540 M-Sport
05-06-2011, 11:20 AM
Besides, if 0w viscosity is low enough for adequate flow rate in an engine cold start at, for example -30F, don't you think a 5w, 10w or even a 15w would be adequate at cold start at 50F?

This is the reason why I change oil twice a year (fall and spring) in my car that I put ~10,000 miles on annually. 5,000 on 10w-40 for the summer and 5,000 on 0w/5w-30 in the winter.

No, because all oils are too thick at cold start up. So having the thinnest oil for cold start is a good thing, to minimize engine wear and starter wear. Of course the oil must also have the proper viscosity at operating temperature as well. So a 0w-30 or 0w-40 seems pretty ideal in most cases, if the oil meets all of the other manufacturers specifications.

More reference info here:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

franka
05-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Like this little nugget of valuable information? :tsk:

I stand by my comments frank and I won't tread on eggshells simply because you lack a sense of humor. If you do not value my contributions to the board then simply place me on your ignore list as your constant harping on me has become totally annoying.

I corrected my error in a prior post but you chose to ignore that to try to score points.

Maybe try an adult approach.

If you want humor you may want to watch cartoons.

bobdmac
05-06-2011, 11:37 AM
Maybe it would be even better if you guys took this to PM's or to another thread, where it could be its own topic.

manticore33
05-06-2011, 11:55 AM
I use the German Castrol Syntec 0w-30 with the LL01 spec. It is the same cost as the other Castrol Syntec and many other synthetics with or without the LL01 certification. It is more like 40wt when hot and approved by the oil nuts over at the bobtheoilguy forums (who really, really, really worry about their oil). I run synthetic for 10k change intervals (changing standard every 5k is basically the same cost as changing synthetic at 10k).

It is all personal preference.

granlund
05-06-2011, 12:20 PM
No, because all oils are too thick at cold start up. So having the thinnest oil for cold start is a good thing, to minimize engine wear and starter wear. Of course the oil must also have the proper viscosity at operating temperature as well. So a 0w-30 or 0w-40 seems pretty ideal in most cases, if the oil meets all of the other manufacturers specifications.

More reference info here:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.php?faq=haas_articles

If so, how come there are a lot of engines from the pre-5w/0w days that are still running without significant wear?

My point with my post, that you clipped off, is that a high viscosity index oil contains a lot of viscosity modifiers that enables a SAE 0w base oil to perform according to SAE 40 at 212F. These viscosity modifiers wear out over time and lower the viscosity. You might be out of luck when the electronic thermostat control does not work when you're nailing the **** out of the engine on a +110F summer day in San Antonio.

I repeat my previous statement that the engine wear will most likely not be more from a cold start at 50F with 10w oil than a cold start at -30F with 0w oil.

Look at the oil recommendation charts in the car manuals. For higher ambient temperatures, a higher viscosity rating (with the same span) is recommended. (at least ten to fifteen years ago before owners were told to do oil changes with 'one-size-fits-all' every 15k).

AnotherGeezer
05-06-2011, 12:36 PM
Maybe it would be even better if you guys took this to PM's or to another thread, where it could be its own topic.

Using the ignore list feature has solved my problem. :thumbup:

chiefwej
05-06-2011, 12:50 PM
If so, how come there are a lot of engines from the pre-5w/0w days that are still running without significant wear?

My point with my post, that you clipped off, is that a high viscosity index oil contains a lot of viscosity modifiers that enables a SAE 0w base oil to perform according to SAE 40 at 212F. These viscosity modifiers wear out over time and lower the viscosity. You might be out of luck when the electronic thermostat control does not work when you're nailing the **** out of the engine on a +110F summer day in San Antonio.

I repeat my previous statement that the engine wear will most likely not be more from a cold start at 50F with 10w oil than a cold start at -30F with 0w oil.

Look at the oil recommendation charts in the car manuals. For higher ambient temperatures, a higher viscosity rating (with the same span) is recommended. (at least ten to fifteen years ago before owners were told to do oil changes with 'one-size-fits-all' every 15k).


Although traditional multi viscosity used lots of modifiers, true synthetic oils like the LL-01 rated oils maintain their viscosity as temperatures rise without needing viscosity modifiers. They just don't get thinner as they heat up like traditional petro based oils do. That is the reason why I can use GC 0w30 here in Tucson where a nice summer day is 105, without any problem.

Unfortunately, U.S. regulation allows some oils that are made from highly refined petro stock to be labeled (or should I say mislabeled) as "synthetic". All the approved LL-01 rated oils are true synthetic oils. For that reason BMW says they are approved for all climates and all temperatures. (Watch out, although Castrol 0w30 and Mobil 1 0w40 are true synthetics, most other weights in those brands are not, hence their designation as "European Formula")

Assuming a properly operating cooling system, after a few minutes the internal temp in a car here in Tucson and one in northern Canada will be exactly the same.


(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Unfortunately)

540 M-Sport
05-06-2011, 07:01 PM
If so, how come there are a lot of engines from the pre-5w/0w days that are still running without significant wear?

My point with my post, that you clipped off, is that a high viscosity index oil contains a lot of viscosity modifiers that enables a SAE 0w base oil to perform according to SAE 40 at 212F. These viscosity modifiers wear out over time and lower the viscosity. You might be out of luck when the electronic thermostat control does not work when you're nailing the **** out of the engine on a +110F summer day in San Antonio.

I repeat my previous statement that the engine wear will most likely not be more from a cold start at 50F with 10w oil than a cold start at -30F with 0w oil.

Look at the oil recommendation charts in the car manuals. For higher ambient temperatures, a higher viscosity rating (with the same span) is recommended. (at least ten to fifteen years ago before owners were told to do oil changes with 'one-size-fits-all' every 15k).

Read the reference link I posted. You are in the "dino oil" mindset, not synthetics. Synthetics do not have VI improvers you are worried about losing.

Quote from the article I linked: "Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out. The actual oil molecules never wear out. You could almost use the same oil forever. The problem is that there are other additives and they do get used up. I suppose if there was a good way to keep oil clean you could just add a can of additives every 6 months and just change the filter, never changing the oil.

When the additives wear out in a synthetic oil it still has the same viscosity. It will not thin as a mineral oil. "

franka
05-06-2011, 08:02 PM
I've read that in parts of the aircraft industry, commercial and military, that they actually do re-use their synthetic oils after a thorough filtering, cleaning and replacing of lost additives, if any.

That such recycling was very effective because it was much less costly than disposing and replacing of very expensive, synthetic oil. Group lV and group V oils. See my post futher down for info on groups.

ProRail
05-06-2011, 08:12 PM
BMW recommends a lot of things that we know better than to do like blind hemmimngs.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd trust BMW a lot more than blind hemmings.

franka
05-06-2011, 09:12 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I'd trust BMW a lot more than blind hemmings.

Funny. Haha. :)

Things like not changing the oil in automatic transmissions because its lifetime oil? Is that what you are talking about?

ard
05-06-2011, 11:50 PM
Are you people really arguing about motor oils?

Pathetic.

franka
05-07-2011, 03:48 AM
Are you people really arguing about motor oils?

Pathetic.

No arguing, just discussion and a sharing of views. :D

franka
05-07-2011, 07:39 AM
Unfortunately, U.S. regulation allows some oils that are made from highly refined petro stock to be labeled (or should I say mislabeled) as "synthetic". All the approved LL-01 rated oils are true synthetic oils. For that reason BMW says they are approved for all climates and all temperatures. (Watch out, although Castrol 0w30 and Mobil 1 0w40 are true synthetics, most other weights in those brands are not, hence their designation as "European Formula"

True, in general. I don't agree with the word 'unfortunate' or 'mislabeled' because some of those oils are very high quality, very widely used, much better than the older dino oils and are legally allowed to use the word synthetic. Though the quality range is extremely wide.

The rest of the below is just fyi that I don't believe has ever been posted in the many oil threads. I posted it to contribute it to the body of knowledge we have here at the 'fest'. I know that many will not read it or care, but that some will be interested to hear what and where some of these details have actually come from. Happy reading to those.

In April, 1999 the US came up with a ruling for the National Advertising Division of the BBB that "Any process beyond physical separation can result in a synthetic product". This applies only in the US.

In Germany synthetic products are ruled as "..those containing POA...", Polyalphaolefin, (see link near bottom) and can be derived with some of the products that come from the traditional crude refining process. POAs were discovered in the 1930s and Mobil, among others, began marketing in the 1970s as Mobil SHC (Syn HydroCarbon).

All oil types are contained in groups l thru V (1-5).

Groups l, ll and lll are derived from traditional refining of crude and categorized by their degree of refinement, the amount of sulfur in the base stock (undesirable) and their Viscosity Index, which is determined by comparing the change in viscosity with temperature to two other reference oils. There are some very high quality oils in this wide group including some called synthetic.

Group lV and V oils have been made by means other than traditional refining, though they can use products that come from traditional refining, and are often referred to as 'synthetic basestock oils'. Group lV has POAs exclusively and group V is for all other synthetic products.

Viscosity is the resistance of the oil to flow over an adjacent layer. Cold oil is viscous and difficult to flow. Heated oil becomes less viscous and flows more readily. But synthetic oils maintain their viscosity as temperatures rise without needing viscosity modifiers, as Chief stated. But still modifiers are used to improve this characteristic. This change in viscosity is noted by the Viscosity Index or Vl.

Today, API (category III) base oils are marketed to the general public as fully synthetic motor oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

Nearly all of the above info came from "Race Engine Technology" published in the UK. It was NOT cut and paste to here.

granlund
05-07-2011, 09:03 AM
Read the reference link I posted. You are in the "dino oil" mindset, not synthetics. Synthetics do not have VI improvers you are worried about losing.

Quote from the article I linked: "Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out. The actual oil molecules never wear out. You could almost use the same oil forever. The problem is that there are other additives and they do get used up. I suppose if there was a good way to keep oil clean you could just add a can of additives every 6 months and just change the filter, never changing the oil.

When the additives wear out in a synthetic oil it still has the same viscosity. It will not thin as a mineral oil. "
I did read the ferrarichat post you referred to. It's interesting. I have to admit, I have not been completely up to date on oils. Do you know of any peer-reviewed research journal articles that discuss this?

ProRail
05-07-2011, 08:50 PM
Funny. Haha. :)

Things like not changing the oil in automatic transmissions because its lifetime oil? Is that what you are talking about?

Yep. Just consider me one of them blind hemmings, whatever they are. If I didn't trust the people who made my car I would buy a different car.

bobdmac
05-07-2011, 09:50 PM
Blind hemmings are the geezers who used to read this magazine until they lost their eyesight.

http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2010-12/1291589109_hemmings_motor_news_2011_01_downmagaz.j pg

ard
05-07-2011, 09:59 PM
Yep. Just consider me one of them blind hemmings, whatever they are. If I didn't trust the people who made my car I would buy a different car.


Interesting.

Your sig has a 1999 car with 145k. And if BMW said 'lifetime fill' you'd never, ever change tranny, diff or ATF?

franka
05-08-2011, 09:04 PM
Yep. Just consider me one of them blind hemmings, whatever they are. If I didn't trust the people who made my car I would buy a different car.

Lemmings stick their head into the sand. :p

franka
05-08-2011, 09:10 PM
Lemmings became the subject of a popular misconception that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. Actually, it is not a mass suicide but the result of their migratory behavior. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings gave rise to the misconception.[8]

The misconception of lemming "mass suicide" is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1954 American Mercury article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs.[9][10] Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which staged footage was shown with lemmings jumping into certain death after faked scenes of mass migration.[11] A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but were in fact launched off the cliff using a turntable.[12]

This same act was also used in the Apple Computer 1985 Super Bowl commercial "Lemmings" and the popular 1991 video game Lemmings, in which the player must stop the lemmings from mindlessly marching over cliffs or into traps. In a 2010 board game by GMT games, "Leaping Lemmings," players must maneuver lemmings across a board while avoiding hazards and successfully launch them off a cliff.

Because of their association with this odd behavior, lemming suicide is a frequently used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences. This metaphor is seen many times in popular culture, such as in the video game Lemmings, and in episodes of Red Dwarf and Adult Swim's show Robot Chicken. The Blink 182 song "Lemmings" also uses this metaphor as does the 1973 stage show National Lampoon's Lemmings starring John Belushi and mocking post-Woodstock group-think.[13]

gtxragtop
05-09-2011, 04:33 PM
The 5W-30 synth I use is the best. I keep this a secret of course since there will be members that will strongly disagree with my choice. :rofl:

vclifford
05-09-2011, 05:32 PM
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/SyntheticEngineOils.aspx

(in addition to the BMW High Performance Synthetic 5w-30 sold by the dealer)

"BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Approved Synthetic Oils for the US Market:

Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30 (only sold in AutoZone stores)
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40 (found just about any auto parts or "big box" store)
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30 (only found online directly from Pennzoil)
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30 (not sure where you can find this)"

BTW, I have never actually seen either the Pennzoil or Valvoline products specified, sold in a typical auto parts store. You will find the Pennzoil Platinum, but not the "Ultra" (LL=-01 approved) version. Same wtih Valvoline SynPower, it is not the LL-01 approved version you will find.

So that basically leaves you with three "approved" oils that are readily available.


What would be really nice is a member recommended list of non approved synthetic oils.
What you guys think about this list. I have made it up and do not know how it will look in engine after 6k.

Pentosyth HP II 5W30 5L---- Has anyone used this one, available at eeuroparts.com http://www.eeuroparts.com/Main/PartDetail.aspx?id=5W305L -- OCI 7500K
Mobil 1 5w30 and OCI and say change every 6000 miles
Mobil 1 0w30 and OCI and say change every 6000 miles
Castrol Syntec 5w30 and OCI and say change every 6000 miles

I will say add more commonly available oils to it and vote. Although 0w40 courtesy of Walmart is available at reasonable price but not all Wally's stock it.
Regards,

chiefwej
05-09-2011, 05:57 PM
The German made Castrol Syntec 0w30 (LL-01 rated) is avail at many auto parts stores. I have bought it at Pep Boys, Checkers, O'Reilly's, and Auto Zone. The cost is the same as other premium synthetic oils. Since it is readily avail, cost no more, highly rated by experts (see bobistheoilguy), and is rated as BMW LL-01 approved, why would I not use it? Oh, because if I do, I'm being a lemming?

540 M-Sport
05-09-2011, 06:03 PM
What would be really nice is a member recommended list of non approved synthetic oils.
What you guys think about this list. I have made it up and do not know how it will look in engine after 6k.

Pentosyth HP II 5W30 5L---- Has anyone used this one, available at eeuroparts.com http://www.eeuroparts.com/Main/PartDetail.aspx?id=5W305L -- OCI 7500K
Mobil 1 5w30 and OCI and say change every 6000 miles
Mobil 1 0w30 and OCI and say change every 6000 miles
Castrol Syntec 5w30 and OCI and say change every 6000 miles

I will say add more commonly available oils to it and vote. Although 0w40 courtesy of Walmart is available at reasonable price but not all Wally's stock it.
Regards,

In my in-expert opinion, ANY 5w-30 or 0w-30 synthetic oil is probably fine, as long as it is changed at 7500 mile or so intervals.

vclifford
05-09-2011, 06:05 PM
The German made Castrol Syntec 0w30 (LL-01 rated) is avail at many auto parts stores. I have bought it at Pep Boys, Checkers, O'Reilly's, and Auto Zone.

I mean it is in the approved list. Lets have non approved list for the purpose of having such a list.

Nearest autozone is 20 miles, and it sells at 8.5 per quart. Pentosyth looks far better at 40 buck for 5quart but I have never heard of the name. I think I will get Mobil1 0w40 but you know I really want to know what are other common options.

gtxragtop
05-10-2011, 06:51 PM
In my in-expert opinion, ANY 5w-30 or 0w-30 synthetic oil is probably fine, as long as it is changed at 7500 mile or so intervals.

+1 BMW long life oils were designed to address the ridiculous 12-15K oil change intervals. If you don't buy into this, and you change every 5-7.5K miles, any old Synth is fine.