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johndade
06-30-2011, 06:35 PM
I have a 02 745 jet black yesterday that someone detailed after inspecting it in the sun it seems like its better but it has those tiny scratch when you look at it in direct sunlight. The guy that did it said he used 3m products and not sure what method he used but it seems like alot of the swirls are out but it still has some glare spots in sunlight along with those tiny scratches and some streaks that looks like its in the paint. Can someone give me some advice or point me in the right direction on what i can do to correct this or am i sol? I thoght i heard him say he was using a wool pad with rotary buffer and wet sanding in some spots. Thank you for your responses and advice.

Ilovemycar
06-30-2011, 08:18 PM
It might be a bit complicated to know, then explain. The car is an '02, so probably about a decade old. That is plenty of time for a tremendous amount of paint damage to have occurred, depending on the level of care, environment, etc. Then there is the effort required to remove any certain % of said damage, and what % would be expected for the money amount agreed upon.

Ideal would be to have someone, either you or the detailer, take before/after pics to get an idea of the % of paint correction.

After a certain pass of a compound-polish there still may be random isolated deeper scratches, and if you hang out in detailing forums, you will see them often use the acronym RIDS.

So when there are RIDS (which is at least some of which you are probably seeing) there is a judgement call. Either you keep going through more clearcoat to get closer to 100% (but you'll have less clearcoat), or you say "ok it's much better now at a 75% correction, and I'll leave the customer some precious remaining clearcoat for future details".

I was taught by a top pro here that the basecoat is typically at 80 microns or so, IIRC, and his paint meter didn't show much more than that on a particular panel on a Laguna Seca blue M3 as I recall. I believe he said one round of polish takes off about 1-3 microns, and that the panel read a very thin 88-90 or something like that. So he did like a +80% correction instead of 100%; he wanted to leave some precious clear for the future.

Hope that educates at least on a couple of things.

Wool pads on a rotary must be followed up by a finishing polish (almost always on an orbital AFAIK). Failure to do so will almost certainly leave holograms, even if the detailer was careful to not induce other types of blemishes. It would be very hard to believe a pro would only do wool on a rotary, without extra steps involved. How much did you pay him, and for what?

dboy11
07-01-2011, 09:03 AM
I have a 02 745 jet black yesterday that someone detailed after inspecting it in the sun it seems like its better but it has those tiny scratch when you look at it in direct sunlight. The guy that did it said he used 3m products and not sure what method he used but it seems like alot of the swirls are out but it still has some glare spots in sunlight along with those tiny scratches and some streaks that looks like its in the paint. Can someone give me some advice or point me in the right direction on what i can do to correct this or am i sol? I thoght i heard him say he was using a wool pad with rotary buffer and wet sanding in some spots. Thank you for your responses and advice.

If he used a wool pad and rotary what you are seeing is the marring that wool creates, and halograms. This is not uncommon with wool pads, they are for serious cutting. What he should have done is followed that up with a foam polishing pad either rotary or PC. With a lighter cut polish this takes those out.

Not saying this wasn't done but based on wool that's what you are seeing. I'm finishing a jet black 350Z today that I did the wool rotary work on yesterday. What needs to happen IMO is you should take it back and ask him to re-polish the paint, with the later of what I suggested that should clear it up

johndade
07-01-2011, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the reply guys, i paid him 200 for it and he had it about 7 hours or so. I have kept the car pretty descent on the years i have had it this would be the second time its been buffed with machines, i useally do it myself with the first step being a clay bar, then polish and wax. So dboy you say to have him re polish it with a foam pad with a pc. What is a pc sorry for the stupid question.

Ilovemycar
07-01-2011, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the reply guys, i paid him 200 for it and he had it about 7 hours or so. I have kept the car pretty descent on the years i have had it this would be the second time its been buffed with machines, i useally do it myself with the first step being a clay bar, then polish and wax. So dboy you say to have him re polish it with a foam pad with a pc. What is a pc sorry for the stupid question.

PC refers to Porter Cable, and usually the 7424XP in particular. We sorta say PC often, but really mean any decent DA (dual action) or RO (random orbital), so instead of PC it could be a Griot's, perhaps a Meguiar's (I think they got one too), or the considerably beefier and expensive Flex.

While prices can vary considerably, I would consider that fair for a two step polish detail, on the exterior only. A top pro could certainly charge more, if depending on geography too. Two step polish, plus interior, for $200 is very cheap, and if the job is well done, the detailer is really not making much money per hour, especially after costs, at least according to my impression. 7 series are big cars after all.

I think the longest I've ever spent on an exterior only is about 9 hours. I think 7 hours is probably a ballpark estimate of a bang up job of a full detail, but only 1 step polish. Hm, I'm prolly talking outta my butt here, I'm curious what others say.

Really though, you ought to take a bunch of photos in bright direct sunlight, and then the pros can tell you what's going on and how to proceed.

johndade
07-01-2011, 07:13 PM
^ thank you sir, brought it back to him today he insisted that i bring it back for those holograms marks he said he wasnt gonna do the first step im assuming the cutting part but repolishing with the foam pads if that makes sense i will be picking it up soon and let yuou guys know how it looks tom.

mikenap
07-01-2011, 10:42 PM
Two step polish, plus interior, for $200 is very cheap, and if the job is well done, the detailer is really not making much money per hour, especially after costs, at least according to my impression.

Agreed. I don't think people realize how much time and materials go into a legitimate detail. Depending on the level of correction expected, even a one-step polish with interior can take 8 or more hours depending on the car, the condition of the paint and what people's expectations are. Bear with me for a second, fellas:

Say a detail takes roughly 8 hours, and you're charged $200. That's $25/hour the detailer makes. Now factor in cost of materials, insurance, wear and tear on machines, travel time and gas if he/she is mobile. A 200g clay bar is roughly $20, and in some extreme cases you can use an entire bar in one detail. If you're polishing, you're taping. How much tape you use can vary drastically per car, and it's a onetime use product. How many pads will you go through per detail? How many cars can you do with those pads before they need replaced? Look at the collection of polishes. There is no "magic bullet" polish that works on every paint type, so detailers should have several different compounds, mid-cut and finishing polishes. Is the detailer using a high-end boutique wax? If so, how many cars do you think he has to do before he even pays off a tub of CG E-zyme or something similar? The list can go on, but you get the idea.

So yeah, I think that a two-step polish and interior for $200 is crazy cheap. Unless someone's cutting corners, which this guy seems to have done(assuming the "glare spots" are holograms left behind). I think in the end, a lot of people still see detailers as unskilled labor doing what they'd rather not do for themselves, ie someone to just wash and wax their car because they are too busy to do it. In reality, products are always evolving and good detailers must stay current, machines and supplies DO wear out, insurance IS expensive, and real detailing is definitely skilled.

Sorry for the rant, but it seemed (to me) that it fits in this discussion.

On another note, why the hell was he wetsanding a 10 year old car without consulting you first?!?!

johndade
07-01-2011, 10:58 PM
Totally agree with you on a detailer is a skilled job if you want that showroom look. He was wet sanding some of the deedper scratches i believe. Reson why i got it for 200 and not 300 was cause he is one of my cousins good friend and is doing 3 or 4 cars in a week that my cousin and me got for him. If it doesnt turn out the way i want it i will come here and ask for your guys expert advice on wha i should do to get it completely perfect or as good as its gonna get. Thank you all for your replies.

mikenap
07-02-2011, 04:59 AM
Totally agree with you on a detailer is a skilled job if you want that showroom look. He was wet sanding some of the deedper scratches i believe. Reson why i got it for 200 and not 300 was cause he is one of my cousins good friend and is doing 3 or 4 cars in a week that my cousin and me got for him. If it doesnt turn out the way i want it i will come here and ask for your guys expert advice on wha i should do to get it completely perfect or as good as its gonna get. Thank you all for your replies.

I see, I didn't realize it was "friend" pricing. My point with the wetsanding was that you should let someone know before you do it, not after it's done. At least that's it what it sounds like happened from reading your post, and I may be misinterpreting it. Good luck though, I hope he addresses those issues for you. :thumbup:

Ilovemycar
07-02-2011, 02:42 PM
Agreed. I don't think people realize how much time and materials go into a legitimate detail. Depending on the level of correction expected, even a one-step polish with interior can take 8 or more hours depending on the car, the condition of the paint and what people's expectations are. Bear with me for a second, fellas:

That's a good breakdown! On certain details, I'll go through dollars worth of nitrile gloves. Sometimes they rip, sometimes they get too sweaty inside, and often I do not want to cross contaminate. It may only be 1% point on a $200 detail, but those % points do add up in places one might not expect.

Ilovemycar
07-02-2011, 02:45 PM
^ thank you sir, brought it back to him today he insisted that i bring it back for those holograms marks he said he wasnt gonna do the first step im assuming the cutting part but repolishing with the foam pads if that makes sense i will be picking it up soon and let yuou guys know how it looks tom.

Rotary/wool IS the first step (unless sand paper was involved I suppose). When we say "polish" we often mean the final polish; the one that jewels or beautifies. The first step is about more aggressive paint leveling. So, at least as far I am concerned (and I'm sure others might suspect the same), I fear there was never the second step, when there should have been.

Let us know how the results turn out . . .

johndade
07-02-2011, 10:09 PM
Hey guys looked at it long and hard today it does seem better but not perfect i would say may have another guy do it soon that did preety good on it last time i had it done. It has a good amount of shine to it but when sun is on it seems like it has those small tiny scratches still not sure if thye come out or if a different techniche is done by hiding them maybe someone can shed some light on it thanks again everyone.

Ilovemycar
07-03-2011, 01:27 PM
Hey guys looked at it long and hard today it does seem better but not perfect i would say may have another guy do it soon that did preety good on it last time i had it done. It has a good amount of shine to it but when sun is on it seems like it has those small tiny scratches still not sure if thye come out or if a different techniche is done by hiding them maybe someone can shed some light on it thanks again everyone.

I keep repeating myself, if you want better input from people here, you'll want to put up a bunch of pics in bright direct sunlight.

If wool pads on a rotary can't take out swirl marks (if that's what they are, for instance), then whoa. Again, maybe it's a compromise with remaining clear. Or maybe it's just bad technique by a bad detailer.

In the future, I would advise a reputable detailer, and one that uses a good paint meter.

You say "hiding". You can temporarily hide them with a glaze. In fact that's what the cheapie services often do for their details. A true correction is exactly that, which is leveling paint.