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chris328
07-15-2011, 08:02 AM
Hey guys so I know it's impossible to polish out orange peel it needs to be wetsanded. However I've noticed that some LSPs reduce the orange peel while others actually can make it worse. What are your opinions on the best LSP (preferably a sealant0 that will remove/hide orange peel effect?

Ilovemycar
07-15-2011, 01:36 PM
I've never come across any kind of recommendation for this. I even tried looking for one just now. It appears you've already tried some products. Which ones worked better for you, and which were you disappointed with?

There was a BMW suv detail here not long ago, and IIRC it appeared the owner wasn't ashamed of the OP at all. Ok I can't find it.

Anyway, since I believe wax hides scratches/blemishes better than sealants, I would presume it might* be better for OP as well. I know you said sealant- hmm. Well Blackfire Wet Diamond is supposed to be getting closer to a carnauba look- but I have no idea if it "hides" as well. Maybe wax over sealant?

If it really bothers you, get it sanded out? If your car is pretty new and hasn't been compounded, etc, I bet you have a lot of clear left. A top pro will have a nice paint meter. I've got my eye on these, for when I keep falling further into this obsession. It's relatively affordable compared to those that cost thousands (which some pros use).

http://www.highlinemeter.com/

TJPark01
07-15-2011, 10:15 PM
I don't think one exists. In fact the cleaner and glossier your car, the easier it is to see. I think light has more to do with it than LSP.
Orange peel is like like the weather, you just kind of have to accept it. Most of the pros I've talked to said that it can be corrected but the best course of action is to leave it alone. The amount of wet sanding involved is utter insanity, you have to abrade the factory clear to a scary amount, and the long term effects are unknown.
Would you really want to go through this? Not to mention the insane amount of man hours, & cost involved:
Ferrari 458 Italia: Wet Sand and Detail in South Florida (orange peel removal) (http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-details-before-after/132603-ferrari-458-italia-wet-sand-detail-south-florida-orange-peel-removal.html)

TOGWT
07-16-2011, 02:26 AM
The way light is reflected from a paint surface affects the vehicles appearance after it is detailed. Reflection of light is either Specular (mirror-like) or Diffused (retaining the energy, but losing the image) depending on the nature of the surface. It is also possible for reflection to occur from the surface of transparent media, such as water or glass.

A paint surface that has 'orange peel' diffuses the light reflection, a wax also shares this reflection trait in the so-called 'wet-look' (jetting).

So by applying a Carnauba wax to a surface that has 'orange peel' you are not masking the effect, but disguising it by making the rest of the paint diffuse light reflection.in the same way

ard
07-21-2011, 12:05 AM
The way light is reflected from a paint surface affects the vehicles appearance after it is detailed. Reflection of light is either Specular (mirror-like) or Diffused (retaining the energy, but losing the image) depending on the nature of the surface. It is also possible for reflection to occur from the surface of transparent media, such as water or glass.

A paint surface that has 'orange peel' diffuses the light reflection, a wax also shares this reflection trait in the so-called 'wet-look' (jetting).

So by applying a Carnauba wax to a surface that has 'orange peel' you are not masking the effect, but disguising it by making the rest of the paint diffuse light reflection.in the same way

Interesting description of a specular and diffused reflection.

I reject the assertion that carnauba wax will create a diffused reflection. Unless you are saying it will no longer reflect an image ..maybe you don't buff it? (Which would be a diffused reflector) but once you are getting a coherent image reflection it is a specular reflection.

Did you really just assert that carnauba will 'hide' or 'disguise' orange peel???

jfs356
07-21-2011, 07:33 AM
For factory produced cars, orange peel is natural and the manufacturer's paint that way by design, according to a friend who owns a bodyshop. Personally, it does not bother me, though I notice it more on dark color cars than lighter ones.

PaceBMW of Mamaroneck
07-21-2011, 08:01 AM
im not sure if i fully understand what "orange peel" is. are there any pics?

Munich77
07-21-2011, 08:16 AM
im not sure if i fully understand what "orange peel" is. are there any pics?

It is the wavy finish on BMW paint - the paint even when from the factory does not have a perfectly smooth surface. BMWs are particularly bad at that - MB's with the ceramic clear have a much less orange peels.

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=195771

PaceBMW of Mamaroneck
07-21-2011, 08:18 AM
It is the wavy finish on BMW paint - the paint even when from the factory does not have a perfectly smooth surface. BMWs are particularly bad at that - MB's with the ceramic clear have a much less orange peels.

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=195771

oh gotcha. thank you for the clarification. :thumbup:

ard
07-21-2011, 11:22 AM
For factory produced cars, orange peel is natural and the manufacturer's paint that way by design, a.

"By design" signifies that it is somehow 'desirable' or 'done for a reason'.

The actual fact is that orange peel results from too wet and too heavy a color coat- due to restrictions on emissions AND a failure to colorsand the finish prior to clear coating it.

A very volatile solvent will flash off quickly and allow the paint to 'set' very quickly, before gravity allows it to 'pool' into the orange peel pockets... with limits on solvents, current finishes will dry more slowly- hence the peel.

Once dry, it can be sanded and buffed smooth, but only before clearcoat, and maybe after depending on the clear.

You CAN paint a car here in the US, and even in CA, and not get orange peel...but it costs much more. The american buying public seems to not care, so BMW ships garbage.

PaceBMW of Mamaroneck
07-21-2011, 11:32 AM
"By design" signifies that it is somehow 'desirable' or 'done for a reason'.

The actual fact is that orange peel results from too wet and too heavy a color coat- due to restrictions on emissions AND a failure to colorsand the finish prior to clear coating it.

A very volatile solvent will flash off quickly and allow the paint to 'set' very quickly, before gravity allows it to 'pool' into the orange peel pockets... with limits on solvents, current finishes will dry more slowly- hence the peel.

Once dry, it can be sanded and buffed smooth, but only before clearcoat, and maybe after depending on the clear.

You CAN paint a car here in the US, and even in CA, and not get orange peel...but it costs much more. The american buying public seems to not care, so BMW ships garbage.

very interesting. so would the orange peel issue exist on ED cars?

Munich77
07-21-2011, 11:50 AM
very interesting. so would the orange peel issue exist on ED cars?

Of course- same car, same product line, same paint process...

ard
07-21-2011, 12:03 PM
Of course- same car, same product line, same paint process...

I think what he is getting at is 'Is this a USA emissions/solvent issue?' ED cars are built in EU...X5s are built in USA...

But I think BMW has different standards for different models, irrespective of country of paint....

My E39 M5 was flawless, but I am pretty sure that was buffed/sanded. As I think back to my observations, all the lower models have orange peel, I haven noticed a big difference between US and EU builds, but I really haven't studied it.... What is the paint like on the E60M5? Dunno.

Ilovemycar
07-21-2011, 12:57 PM
I also wonder if it's a varying issue from panel to panel with certain vehicles. For instance, with darker Escalades, it seems that the tailgate has a lot of OP, even if the rest of the panels are decent.

ard
07-21-2011, 02:22 PM
I also wonder if it's a varying issue from panel to panel with certain vehicles. For instance, with darker Escalades, it seems that the tailgate has a lot of OP, even if the rest of the panels are decent.

There are complex quality inspection procedures that define the acceptable level of defects that can vary based on the 'visual impact'...the hood, side panels above the beltline, etc, are 'high visual' areas. They may simply buff these but ignore less important areas...

A

PS Actually when repainting repairs, a good shop will 'match' the orange peel to adjacent panels to some extent... You don't want a 'perfect door, in between a crappy fender and rear door...

Ilovemycar
07-21-2011, 06:26 PM
ard, thanks for that information. It also never occurred to me that repainted panels might have matching OP for better blending. I can see the aforementioned tailgate having lesser standards for whatever reason, however, to me it still has relatively high visual impact, IMO. After all it gets to the same height as the side panels (not including pillars).

I was thinking maybe it had to do with making logistics easier, when the rear does need to have a wiper, handle, emblem, and badge installed . . . in any case, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lesser standard for paint on the rear.

TOGWT
07-22-2011, 03:46 AM
Interesting description of a specular and diffused reflection.

I reject the assertion that carnauba wax will create a diffused reflection. Unless you are saying it will no longer reflect an image ..maybe you don't buff it? (Which would be a diffused reflector) but once you are getting a coherent image reflection it is a specular reflection.

Did you really just assert that carnauba will 'hide' or 'disguise' orange peel???

How did I guess you would offer up an unqualified argument, seems to be your usual MO. As a moderator I would think you should spend your time posting information not putting up baseless arguments

ard
07-22-2011, 09:59 AM
Unqualified?

You are FOS. By definition a diffused reflection will not result in a 'coherent image'..so if you are saying carnauba will give you and overall 'glow' without any coherent image then I would agree that will 'hide' or 'disguise' orange peel. Yes, a matte finish will hide orange peel. Carnauba is not matte.

Your MO seems to have been collecting up 'factoids' over the internet and comporting these into a 'quasi-expert' rap that you publish, sell and post. Some of it very good, some dead wrong- but all delivered from a posture of 'I'm a 30 year PHD expert'. You regurgitate more than enough "information" for both of us, my goal is to get to the truth.

I won't say this ^^^ on a board where I moderate, it isn't fair. But I will say it here.

TOGWT
07-23-2011, 02:34 AM
It very easy to criticize what other people post, instead of only offering criticism post some informative information of your own for everyone***8217;s enlightenment.

The posting of relevant information and subsequent constructive criticism and level headed discussion is what forums should be about, not the constant posturing and the need to bolster egos and subsequent backbiting I find rather tiresome and boring

ard
07-23-2011, 10:04 AM
It very easy to criticize what other people post, instead of only offering criticism post some informative information of your own for everyone's enlightenment.

The posting of relevant information and subsequent constructive criticism and level headed discussion is what forums should be about, not the constant posturing and the need to bolster egos and subsequent backbiting I find rather tiresome and boring

Pointing out when 'enlightening information' is actually quasi-science mumbo-jumbo is, in fact, informative.

You side carnauba is a diffusive surface that will mask orange peel.

It does not.

Still awaiting your reply.

lild
07-28-2011, 07:57 PM
"By design" signifies that it is somehow 'desirable' or 'done for a reason'.

The actual fact is that orange peel results from too wet and too heavy a color coat- due to restrictions on emissions AND a failure to colorsand the finish prior to clear coating it.

A very volatile solvent will flash off quickly and allow the paint to 'set' very quickly, before gravity allows it to 'pool' into the orange peel pockets... with limits on solvents, current finishes will dry more slowly- hence the peel.

Once dry, it can be sanded and buffed smooth, but only before clearcoat, and maybe after depending on the clear.

You CAN paint a car here in the US, and even in CA, and not get orange peel...but it costs much more. The american buying public seems to not care, so BMW ships garbage.

actually your wrong. orange peel comes from clear that sets up to fast. the slower the clear dries the more it flows out, the slicker is looks. the faster it dries the less time it has to flow out. you have fast clears and then you have slow clears. and to get rid of orange peel you wet sand and buff the clear, base has nothing to do with orange peel.
now why are more cars comeing from the factory with lots of orange peel, who knows, cost, or maybe a good way to see when a car has been reapired.

lild
07-28-2011, 07:58 PM
to the op. the only wat to rid the orange peel is to wet sand and buff. buffing alone won't do it.

mikenap
07-28-2011, 08:29 PM
actually your wrong. orange peel comes from clear that sets up to fast. the slower the clear dries the more it flows out, the slicker is looks. the faster it dries the less time it has to flow out. you have fast clears and then you have slow clears. and to get rid of orange peel you wet sand and buff the clear, base has nothing to do with orange peel.
now why are more cars comeing from the factory with lots of orange peel, who knows, cost, or maybe a good way to see when a car has been reapired.

This.


http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=526225

lild
07-28-2011, 08:49 PM
i paint cars for a living. i'll take my experice thank you.

mikenap
07-28-2011, 09:33 PM
i paint cars for a living. i'll take my experice thank you.

Sorry, was this directed at me? I was agreeing with you.:confused:

lild
07-29-2011, 07:59 PM
Sorry, was this directed at me? I was agreeing with you.:confused:

sorry, my bad, i took it the wrong the way. long week for me, tired, too lazy to read.
please forgive me for the previous statement. i was in fact talking out of my arse.:tsk:

mikenap
07-29-2011, 09:25 PM
sorry, my bad, i took it the wrong the way. long week for me, tired, too lazy to read.
please forgive me for the previous statement. i was in fact talking out of my arse.:tsk:

No worries, I'd only posted it to clarify to whoever was thinking orange peel is in the basecoat. I probably could have been more clear about it.:D