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TECH Help Needed: Running Rich, SAP Issues (Much Detail)

7K views 9 replies 3 participants last post by  DirtyDan 
#1 ·
Hi guys - I've posted a few times on here before for help but this time I think I'm out of my league. This issue is likely going on 1 year.

In the picture attached is my most recent DME scan of my 2006 X5 3.0 (138K mi) which was done using PA Soft's scanner which I purchased simply to troubleshoot this issue. Throughout the process I've been working with an indy who is equipped with a GT1 and I thought we had it resolved (see thread: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544228) but 2000 miles later, it's back.

The recurring theme is codes 235 (P1190), 236 (P1191). Since purchasing the PA Soft product, I've been able to get more detail than what I get when dropping it off at the indy. While they're terrific guys and I get to speak with the tech face-to-face, I've never really gotten a print out of some sort that showed me all the GT1 was finding though I've never asked either.

Here is the bucket list of items that have been done. Bear in mind many of these were in response to lean codes I was getting previously but potentially misleading because I was using a generic OBDII scanner which I don't believe is as accurate as a BMW scanner. These are in memory order of how I've done them over the past 2 years of ownership as I've been terrible with keeping a log.

All 4 O2s replaced
Beisan Systems VANOS seals
Removed and cleaned ICV & Throttle body & MAF
Valve Cover Gasket
Replaced OE Spark Plugs with NGK Iridium
60K maintenance (@98K miles). This included new fuel filter/FPR.
Oil Separator Valve & Hoses (@100K)

-= at this point I went about 1 year with no CEL issues =-
-= Fall of 2010, the CEL returns with lean codes & "misfire detected, low fuel" =-

Replaced MAF
Replaced air filter
Pre-cat O2s were just replaced again in March 2011.
Valve Cover Gasket (was leaking again) & seals replaced
Air Intake Elbow (cracked on the underside)
Smoke test - clean, no leaks
New gas cap
Replaced NGK Iridiums with OE BMW plugs & torqued.
Had DME software reloaded (@135K mi)
Replaced fuel filter again (@135K mi). Fuel Press. tested @ rail before & after replacement, same value, 50psi.
Indy also said my adaptive values are around 0.2.

-= Made it 2000mi with no CEL then CEL returns with codes (see pic attached) =-

Miscellaneous info:

I've run maybe 3 cans of BG44K through it since ownership in the event injector spray pattern might be causing incomplete fuel burn.

Prior to this scan, last week I did have shadow codes present for a misfire in cyl#5 & cyl#6. I swapped 5&6 with 1&2, cleared the codes and went on a 50mi round-trip journey yesterday but the codes for misfire did not return. I recently returned from a 1000mi round-trip journey where I had it on cruise control @ 80MPH most of the way so it may have occurred during that period but because they're both on the same bank, I don't see that contributing to the case of both banks reporting running rich which has been occurring for some time.

So based on this most recent scan in the pic attached, I need to explain one other attribute of this problem.
-= I am able to get the CEL to go off, with consistency. =-

If the CEL is on and:

1. I drive from home to the Walgreens about 1.5mi away with the engine cold
2. shut off the engine when I get there then
3: start it up again to go back home
4: then shut it off
5. start it up go out to the hardware store about 1.5mi away
6. shut it off then
7. start it up to head home then
8. shut it off.

On the next startup (the 5th), the CEL will go off. This will only happen on short trips (less than 3mi or so). This will also happen whether the engine is cold or not. If on the 5th startup the CEL goes out and I drive somewhere longer where I jump onto the highway, the CEL will likely come back on during that trip.

This has actually happened since day 1 of having the car (@86K miles) and with now seeing these secondary airpump issues, I'm wondering if there isn't some correlation between the startup and drive (while SAP is running) during warmup periods that are causing my probs. I've done a bit of reading to understand how the SAP works and I'm not sure if I"m onto something or not. I typically let the idle settle to below 1K before taking off. That usually takes about 30seconds after startup.

PLEASE let me know if the SAP could potentially be causing my rich issues based on the information I've provided. If I'm missing anything, please let me know. I'm desperate at this point.
 

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#2 ·
Good luck***8230;.you've got a bit of a mess!

I noticed you replaced your VCG twice in a year. This could be an indicator that the CCV was toast again; it can go very quickly.
I had P1190 and 1191, which went away with short drives, and it was due to the infamous intake elbow leak. If it is still popping up (which it doesn't seem to be, given the screenshot), look for more vacuum leaks.

The short drives are probably just clearing some codes, rather than the SAP being the problem imho. My first concern would be trying to figure out why ALL your shiny new O2 sensors have bad heater circuits, in addition to the solenoid valve for the SAP. Has there been any water damage?

What car is this about? An X3 or E46?
 
#3 ·
Thanks for reviewing and replying.

It's for an E53 2006 X5 3.0 and there has not been any water damage neither from the previous owner or myself. The car was maintained by a BMW dealer. I'm the 2nd owner and purchased @ 86K miles. I did the VCG when I purchased it because it was leaking and did the OSV out of paranoia (which plagues me). I had a feeling I did a crappy job with it the first time and around 109K miles I noticed it leaking/seeping again down the bottom side towards the exhaust manifold so that's why I replaced it again.

As for the SAP, I did have an afterthought that perhaps it's helping my rich condition where on these short trips, it's still running pumping more O2 into the exhaust gas and thus clearing the rich condition on its own. On the contrary, on long trips when the SAP has long shut off, the rich condition is present and no SAP to inject more O2. Just an afterthought and searching for help in validating my logic.

But you're right - I'm not sure why I'm showing heater circuit malfunctions on new O2s.
 
#4 ·
Finally broke down and took it to the dealer. They sent the info off to BMW as the tech and foreman couldn't make sense of it. BMW came back and said the data depicts the car taking too long to get to operating temperature thus running rich. They suspected a thermostat leaking internally. I'm going to do a partial cooling system refresh (coolant temp sensor, upper and lower hoses, water pump & thermostat) and see how that plays out.

As for the short trip scenario, the explanation was that while cold, the DME is in agreement that the engine should be running rich and upon those few starts, sees no problem. It isn't however until a longer trip when it determines that it's been running rich for too long and throws up the code.


Sent from my SGH-T679 using Bimmer

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Bimmer
 
#5 ·
Well the cooling system flush, thermostat, water pump and hoses did not resolve the issue. The codes cleared on their own with the short trips but as soon as a longer trip (>5mi) happened, it came right back! I'm at a loss. At this point I could just trade it in but I think instead of getting into another car payment, I'm just going to continue driving it! There really is nothing wrong with the way it drives.
 
#6 ·
Wow you have done everything.....Have you cleaned the throttle body intake by running SeaFoam through the system? And adding SeaFoam in the gas tank? Wal-mart sells it. It will clean any gunk out of the system. I would also buy Mass Air Flow sensor spray and take out the MAF and clean it and let it dry. Then put a new air filter in it, paper. Or K&N without so much oil on it. Sounds like it maybe throwing the rich code from it. I was getting a rich code and it was the MAF sensor was dirty.

Just curious how old is your battery? It is proven an old battery will throw crazy codes. I was having codes go on and off and I replaced the battery and no issues since. Remember the X5 has an electrical system from a few different vechicles the Range Rover and station wagon.

I hope you find a cause. But I put my money on the MAF dirty or wet and battery going out.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thanks for reviewing Dan. The battery is a year old and i can count that ive prob cleaned the MAF about 4 times since the prob started. Ive even put a MAF in from my brohers 330ci which is the same part number. There is a service bulletin from 2004 that references this but the fix was to update the software and im already running the latest version. I was considering resetting all the adaptations.....

The air filter is a couple weeks old and its oe bmw. Ive done the seafoam in the intake and even done the lifter bleed procedure in the event one of them was stuck or had air trapped.

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#9 ·
Yeah I'm definitely at the point where I'm prepared to drive it like nothing's wrong! hahaha. One member on here was having the same probs and said new cats fixed his issue but that is a pricey gamble. Considering nothing I've done have shaken these codes!
 
#10 ·
Maybe before changing them, you could get a hammer and tap on them to see if you losen any carbon in them. Or make sure you don't have a whole in one of them. I believe there are 4 cats. Carbon is what makes the O2's blow codes. Yes changing them will be a pricy option.
 
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