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mtuncy
01-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Just got my new 650 xdrive on Saturday and got snowed in the same day in Seattle. This morning I decided to take it out for a spin to see what the xdrive can do and as I was reversing it into my parking spot, this scary "Drivetrain Failure" error appeared and automatically put the car in park and the car started rattling. I did a quick restart put in reverse, same thing again. I left it for 30 mins, started the car, revved it up, no more errors on the dash but the engine light is on.

So with less than 50 miles drive time the car is in service. After 4 hours of checks the diagnosis is that the engine computer freaks out because of mixture and flow of fuel & gas and the high temperature and shuts itself down. They blame it on the high ethanol gas and the cold weather and reprogramming the engine, which apparently takes about a day. How can they not know that before shipping it over here I wonder. Did this happen to anyone else?

Itinj6
01-17-2012, 03:29 AM
We got our X6 stuck in the snow for a while and after several failed attempts at trying to free it, hitting has, rocking back and forth, turning wheels, etc, we got the same failure. That was a year ago so I don't remember what happened after or what service said, but we were able to move after a restart and same like you, the check engine light retained and the drive was very rough following. It's an older X6 (2010) but after seeing that, I think the XDrive system is fragile. Also, I'm having some steering issue right now on my F12 with the Integral Active Steering after 1200 miles. It is in the shop right now for the 3rd time on this issue. Pissing me off. These systems, while intriguing, are useless if they don't work properly and reliably.

roadsta
01-17-2012, 03:42 AM
My take on it - if you can avoid any ethanol in the petrol / gas, do so. Here, we also get ethanol in some of our petrol, for completely different reasons (clean energy arguments, all spurious).

I avoid it like the plague. Only pure fossil fuels for my engine.

My view - this has nothing to do with the x-drive as such. If a non x-drive was exposed to the same conditions, the same error would have occurred.

r

mtuncy
01-17-2012, 08:22 AM
Sorry to hear about the Integral Active Steering. I didn't order that in mine on purpose, I thought it was making the steering a bit dull, I guess that may have been a good decision. If it is the 3rd time same issue, you can invoke Lemon and ask for an exact replacement.

I don't think it's the xdrive system either, because I didn't even push it, it was just a regular drive around the city, just to see if the xdrive is any good with 20"s & the regular tires on snow & ice. My verdict is it's like duck on a frozen lake, you definitely need the winter tires. But it's not worth it here in Seattle as we only get snow and below freezing weather couple of days a year.

As for ethanol, there is no way to avoid it in U.S. everywhere is E10, in some states it's even mandatory. And I filled it with Shell AKI 92. But I guess that's the question when they ship a car to U.S., don't they adjust it accordingly?! Apparently not or they missed it? My concern now is, in order to compensate they'll increase the compression and fuel flow, hope they won't mess up the consumption.

btw I was searching to see where to find pure fuel and came across this page http://pure-gas.org/ Good reference for U.S. & Canada FYI

svp66
01-17-2012, 09:21 AM
Just got my new 650 xdrive on Saturday and got snowed in the same day in Seattle. This morning I decided to take it out for a spin to see what the xdrive can do and as I was reversing it into my parking spot, this scary "Drivetrain Failure" error appeared and automatically put the car in park and the car started rattling. I did a quick restart put in reverse, same thing again. I left it for 30 mins, started the car, revved it up, no more errors on the dash but the engine light is on.

So with less than 50 miles drive time the car is in service. After 4 hours of checks the diagnosis is that the engine computer freaks out because of mixture and flow of fuel & gas and the high temperature and shuts itself down. They blame it on the high ethanol gas and the cold weather and reprogramming the engine, which apparently takes about a day. How can they not know that before shipping it over here I wonder. Did this happen to anyone else?

This may not necessarily be related to the XDrive. I also had an issue on day two (after ~150 miles). The car took longer to start (electric starter went on for maybe 5 sec before the engine fired). When engine was finally on it was shaking, struggling to keep the idle level (felt like dying any second), and gave the "drivetrain failure" message. It felt like only half of the engine was working - the whole car was shaking. I called immediately the dealership, and they got me in the same day (on Saturday too). When restarting after the 15 min conversation, everything was working well except the check engine light was on. I drove then without problems to the dealership (~100 miles). The dealer said one of the fuel pumps (don't remember whether the low pressure or high pressure) failed on one side of the engine. They replaced it, no problems for now ~2000 miles. Point is that despite the drivetrain failure message it was not an issue of the XDrive, but rather a fuel pump.

svp66
01-17-2012, 09:24 AM
The other thing I wanted to mention has nothing to do with the failure issue - would suggest you have at least all season tires. My car came with the M-package that includes performance tires. I would not dream of using it without winter tires despite the XDrive.

mtuncy
01-17-2012, 01:21 PM
The dealer said one of the fuel pumps (don't remember whether the low pressure or high pressure) failed on one side of the engine. They replaced it, no problems for now ~2000 miles. Point is that despite the drivetrain failure message it was not an issue of the XDrive, but rather a fuel pump.

well the reprogramming didn't work, they now suspect it may be the fuel pumps or injectors, they don't know what to do either... sent the information to Germany and waiting for instructions... stay tuned.

Elias
01-17-2012, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=mtuncy;6568485]well the reprogramming didn't work, they now suspect it may be the fuel pumps or injectors, they don't know what to do either... sent the information to Germany and waiting for instructions... stay tuned.[/ Fuel pump or injectors sounds more accurate.

car-fan
01-18-2012, 08:06 AM
The Drivetrain Error message can be related to many things. As several posters have stated it is very unlikely to be related to the Xdrive system.

I have seen that error in addition to the "Engine Malfunction" reduced power message as well. Luckily I have not seen it on the 6 (knocking on wood) After a while you will be able to discern some of the nuances of the N63 TTV8. One example is how the car idles in gear when at a stop at times - not always smooth is it?. This is my 3rd car with this engine - the last being DINAN tuned and they all seem to exhibit the same characteristics - not bad just - just saying:rolleyes:

XZLR8
01-18-2012, 12:28 PM
Just had the same thing happen to me over lunch today. I stopped at Walgreens, was there for 15 minutes or so, then got in the car to leave. Immediately upon starting it up, I got the "Drivetrain Failure" message and the whole car was shaking. Shut the car off and tried it again... same thing. Shut the car off and let it sit for only a minute or two, then everything was fine when I started it back up. Fluke... or should it be checked?

car-fan
01-19-2012, 08:54 AM
Just had the same thing happen to me over lunch today. I stopped at Walgreens, was there for 15 minutes or so, then got in the car to leave. Immediately upon starting it up, I got the "Drivetrain Failure" message and the whole car was shaking. Shut the car off and tried it again... same thing. Shut the car off and let it sit for only a minute or two, then everything was fine when I started it back up. Fluke... or should it be checked?

Based on what you described you should have it checked. I hope that the fault was stored..

XZLR8
01-19-2012, 06:24 PM
Based on what you described you should have it checked. I hope that the fault was stored..
I ended up dropping the car off at the dealership that afternoon. Today, I received the following in an email from my service guy:

"We ran a diagnostic test this morning and had a high pressure fuel system fault. We are going to send some information to our BMW technical department to assist us through this process. We have also spoken to our BMW field service engineer that is trying to help diagnose the problem and why it happened. It is likely we will need to keep the car thru tomorrow and once I have more information or facts to give you I will let you know."

The good news, I guess, is that a fault was stored. I haven't heard anything more, but will update you guys when I do.

car-fan
01-19-2012, 11:15 PM
I ended up dropping the car off at the dealership that afternoon. Today, I received the following in an email from my service guy:

"We ran a diagnostic test this morning and had a high pressure fuel system fault. We are going to send some information to our BMW technical department to assist us through this process. We have also spoken to our BMW field service engineer that is trying to help diagnose the problem and why it happened. It is likely we will need to keep the car thru tomorrow and once I have more information or facts to give you I will let you know."

The good news, I guess, is that a fault was stored. I haven't heard anything more, but will update you guys when I do.

I'm glad you took it in for peace of mind, especially with the diagnosis they gave. It also sounds like the dealer may have opened a PUMA case which basically goes to a top tier technical team for guidance.

mtuncy
01-20-2012, 03:30 PM
ditto here. heard back today, final diagnosis as right side high pressure pump failure, unfortunately they don't have the part in stock, waiting for next monday/tuesday for a replacement and we'll see if that fixes the issue.

XZLR8
01-21-2012, 10:00 AM
ditto here. heard back today, final diagnosis as right side high pressure pump failure, unfortunately they don't have the part in stock, waiting for next monday/tuesday for a replacement and we'll see if that fixes the issue.
Thanks for the update. My dealership is trying to "replicate" the problem so they can do diagnostics when it's actually happening (per BMW's instruction). Since it only happened one time, I can't imagine this is going to be an effective plan. Needless to say, I'm without my Coupe for the weekend as a result...

Elias
01-21-2012, 01:12 PM
Boy I hope we don't start having HPFP issues with the F12/ F13 cars just like the E60's !!:dunno:

mtuncy
01-21-2012, 05:37 PM
Boy I hope we don't start having HPFP issues with the F12/ F13 cars just like the E60's !!:dunno:

I remember that, didn't they end up recalling like 130,000 cars, but I thought it was isolated to N54 engines and BMW back then blamed the U.S. fuel and confirmed that the new fuel pump introduced in 2010 was not failing. Well maybe it's not the case mine is December 2011 production. Interestingly though if I think about it, the issue started right after I first time refueled car, maybe there is some truth to it.

For the sake of other F12/13 owners, hope these are isolated cases.

At least they gave me a 550 as a loaner, which I have now driven around more than my 650 lol!!

XZLR8
01-21-2012, 08:27 PM
At least they gave me a 550 as a loaner, which I have now driven around more than my 650 lol!!
Yeah, well, I left with a new 528i xDrive loaner. It's like driving a hybrid.

Elias
01-21-2012, 08:33 PM
I remember that, didn't they end up recalling like 130,000 cars, but I thought it was isolated to N54 engines and BMW back then blamed the U.S. fuel and confirmed that the new fuel pump introduced in 2010 was not failing. Well maybe it's not the case mine is December 2011 production. Interestingly though if I think about it, the issue started right after I first time refueled car, maybe there is some truth to it.

For the sake of other F12/13 owners, hope these are isolated cases.

At least they gave me a 550 as a loaner, which I have now driven around more than my 650 lol!!

What brand of Gas did you use when you had the problem with your car?

mtuncy
01-21-2012, 09:22 PM
What brand of Gas did you use when you had the problem with your car?

Shell Premium

XZLR8
01-21-2012, 09:40 PM
What brand of Gas did you use when you had the problem with your car?
That was the first question that BMW told them to ask me, too, when I took my 6 in.

[BP 93, for the record.]

XZLR8
01-25-2012, 08:14 PM
Almost a week and one new fuel pump later, I'm back on the road. Good to have her back.

Itinj6
01-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Awesome. Congrats!

mtuncy
01-26-2012, 09:58 AM
frustrating but we are getting somewhere... HPFP replaced, which solved the errors and the car started running smoothly. But after a full day of testing local service still not happy with the pressure readings and worried that it may cause the same pump failure again decided to keep the case open, drain the whole system and refuel with pure gas, which seems to fix everything. So narrowed down to the winter blend of fuel currently in distribution. All data passed on to BMW, now we are waiting for them to come up with a permanent solution. It may be an alteration to the fuel pump and/or a programming change. Apparently there are coupe of cars with N63s in service now experiencing the same issue.

I got her back as it's running fine right now but most likely it'll be back in service once BMW responds with a permanent fix.

Detrick
02-29-2012, 09:02 PM
Tonight I started my car (N63) after having it parked for 45 minutes and received a Drivetrain Failure - Reduced Power message. The car was shaking terribly, very similiar to the HPFP failures I experienced with the N54. Drove it very lightly for 3 minutes, shut it off, and restarted the engine. The issue went completely away.

The car has 1,280 miles on it, a Dinan S2 tune, Shell 93-octane winter blend with ambient temperatures in the mid-50's F. After several years with HPFP issues on the N54, and now purchasing a nearly $80K BMW, I am very disappointed. This is appalling, to say the least. It happened as I was picking my father from the hospital. Shame on BMW for not fixing this issue after 5-years, thousands of complaints and a class action law suit. It will be just a matter of time before my HPFP gives out. Another unreliable BMW!

mtuncy
02-29-2012, 09:20 PM
mine is still not fixed... still waiting for engineering to come up with a permanent solution, it has been a month and counting... now at least it's running fine with ethanol blended fuel but I don't have an engine cover (the service calls it "a cosmetically piece") to help engine & fuel pump cool off faster.

XZLR8
03-09-2012, 08:40 PM
I resurrected this old thread, because I had this same issue again this afternoon. The car started very hesitantly, shook, got the "Drivetrain Failure / Reduced Power" message, only to die as soon as I stepped on the gas. It did this three times in a row, so I let the car sit for about 5 minutes then tried again. This time was better (although there was a slight hiccup and not the normal pep), so I drove it straight to the dealership (approximately a 15 minute trip). They won't get a chance to look at it until Monday, so I won't know more until then. Anyone had this happen a second time even after already having a fuel pump replaced, as I did?

Side note: I did drive off in a brand new (loaded @ $57K) 335i Sport, though, so that part is good. Wouldn't be my choice just from a size standpoint, but it's interesting to see the advancements over the prior model in terms of tech... HUD, cameras, etc. The red stripes on the interior, though, are full-on obnoxious. Or I'm old. Probably the latter.

Itinj6
03-09-2012, 09:11 PM
I resurrected this old thread, because I had this same issue again this afternoon. The car started very hesitantly, shook, got the "Drivetrain Failure / Reduced Power" message, only to die as soon as I stepped on the gas. It did this three times in a row, so I let the car sit for about 5 minutes then tried again. This time was better (although there was a slight hiccup and not the normal pep), so I drove it straight to the dealership (approximately a 15 minute trip). They won't get a chance to look at it until Monday, so I won't know more until then. Anyone had this happen a second time even after already having a fuel pump replaced, as I did?

Side note: I did drive off in a brand new (loaded @ $57K) 335i Sport, though, so that part is good. Wouldn't be my choice just from a size standpoint, but it's interesting to see the advancements over the prior model in terms of tech... HUD, cameras, etc. The red stripes on the interior, though, are full-on obnoxious. Or I'm old. Probably the latter.

It's not just you. It seems the majority in the F30 forum are complaining that they can't get the Sport Line without the red (or blue?) interior trim. I would have to agree.

southern6er22
03-09-2012, 09:33 PM
I'm 23 and think its obnoxious... Then again, I'm doing my darnedest to screw with BMW's precious market research. lol

XZLR8
03-09-2012, 09:36 PM
Well, gentlemen, you've made a 42 year old feel just a bit better. Ha.

southern6er22
03-09-2012, 09:42 PM
The cars do look great aside from the red stripes that are supposed to appeal to the whipper snappers. The outside really looks great. The inside isn't too bad either... although the 6er has spoiled me as any surface not covered in Nappa just seems a little too "of the people" lol. I saw one F30 for $60k. That's M3 money, and I just don't think I could spend that on a 3 Series.

XZLR8
03-09-2012, 09:47 PM
I saw one F30 for $60k. That's M3 money, and I just don't think I could spend that on a 3 Series.
Especially when you consider that adding the (future) M-Sport and xDrive options will probably add another $5K to the tally.

southern6er22
03-09-2012, 09:59 PM
The next M3 should be really good given that all the toys are now available, but it's probably going up a good bit in price as well.

It looks to me like they're trying to make the 1 Series the new "entry level" and put the 3 where the 5 used to be in the line up. Does that mean the 5 is now a 7, and the 7 is now a Rolls? It's a big, powerful, comfy sedan, but not quite that level. In my mind the 3 is always going to be entry level due to the shear number of them and when I was in high school that was the car you got when you turned 16. I guess over time if the 1s are all over the place and 3 sightings are less rare, then maybe they'll change my mind.

roadsta
03-10-2012, 04:35 AM
In my mind the 3 is always going to be entry level due to the shear number of them and when I was in high school that was the car you got when you turned 16.

Consider yourself very, very fortunate...

r

isildain
03-10-2012, 12:01 PM
It looks to me like they're trying to make the 1 Series the new "entry level" and put the 3 where the 5 used to be in the line up. Does that mean the 5 is now a 7, and the 7 is now a Rolls? It's a big, powerful, comfy sedan, but not quite that level. In my mind the 3 is always going to be entry level due to the shear number of them and when I was in high school that was the car you got when you turned 16. I guess over time if the 1s are all over the place and 3 sightings are less rare, then maybe they'll change my mind.

Just wait til they come off with the rumored 4 series where they start splitting some of 3's out.

It may end up that the 3's will be the entry level for the guys and families, and the 1's end up being entry level for the women. (no sexism intended). That being said, a 135i is a fun car to drive, kinda like driving a go-cart with a rocket. We used those at the Performance School, and I had a blast.


I sometimes wonder if BMW is trying to fill too many niches by creating a 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, X1, X3, X5, and X6 series lines. It used to be that you could get a car in small, medium or large. Now you can get extra small, small, medium, extra medium, large, larger, pseudo-off road lite, pseudo-off road small, off-road large, and off road strange.

Itinj6
03-10-2012, 01:24 PM
Even number BMWs rule!!! Got my 650 and X6 in the stable. :)

"Off road strange" LMAO. Definitely strange... Is it a car? A truck? Who the hell knows. I think it's supposed to be a crossover type. However, I think the X5 would be more of a medium sized.


All they need is a new 8 Series Supercar to compete with the MB SLS or SLR, Lexus LFA and Audi RS8

and...

X7 anyone??? Cadillac Escalade sized BMW SUV? That would be a large sized SUV. My wife said she would be all over that.

southern6er22
03-10-2012, 01:45 PM
135i is a fun car to drive, kinda like driving a go-cart with a rocket. We used those at the Performance School, and I had a blast.

I agree. I drove one during the 2 day car control course at the PC, and I know what you mean about it being like a go cart - that has more rear leg room than our huge coupes/convertibles lol. I'd love to drive a 1M - a turbocharged go cart :)

X7 would be awesome. Imagine a real SUV with a European interior - that's right, you can't imagine it!!! Our Denali is nice, but it definitely is not light on the plastic like the 6ers. Bentley and Maserati are coming out with SUVs, but (a) they're more crossover-sized, and (b) they're likely going to be pushing the $200k mark.

XZLR8
03-12-2012, 06:11 PM
Back-on-topic update:

I received the following in an email from my SA today.

"We have been working with your 650 today. We have reproduced the problem and are working to troubleshoot the cause. We believe the fuel system is vapor locking and we are looking for the proper way to correct this condition. We are in contact with BMW technical dept to guide us along and assist towards the repair of your BMW. I will let you know when I have further information."

pan
03-12-2012, 06:53 PM
Since drive train error appears to be common enough so that quite a few members of this forum have experienced this problem I have a few questions for you, who are more knowledgeable than I.

What are the build dates of your cars?
Are there any differences with the 650 version of the F12/13 engine than the same engine used in other models?
Are the other Models also reporting this same problem?

When the 6er was first introduced there was a fascinating BMW video about the efforts BMW went to find the issues with the car. What they did is they had a number of thermometer strips which they placed on potential hot spots, like the differential, etc... It ws a nice piece to say they worked through most of the problems.

Vapor locking is a function of residual heat changing the liquid fuel to a vapor. It leads me to think of different solutions other than fuel pumps. But what do I know!

XZLR8
03-14-2012, 08:03 AM
mine is still not fixed... still waiting for engineering to come up with a permanent solution, it has been a month and counting... now at least it's running fine with ethanol blended fuel but I don't have an engine cover (the service calls it "a cosmetically piece") to help engine & fuel pump cool off faster.

Did you ever get a permanent fix? Mine is back in the shop for the same problem (the fuel system is vapor locking). It was also recommended that they remove engine cover as a potential fix, but from my perspective, that's not a reasonable suggestion on a brand new $100K car.

XZLR8
03-14-2012, 08:04 AM
Vapor locking is a function of residual heat changing the liquid fuel to a vapor. It leads me to think of different solutions other than fuel pumps. But what do I know!
I think you're exactly right, Pan. Replacing the fuel pump bought me a little time, but didn't really "fix" anything.

mtuncy
03-14-2012, 10:05 AM
Did you ever get a permanent fix? Mine is back in the shop for the same problem (the fuel system is vapor locking). It was also recommended that they remove engine cover as a potential fix, but from my perspective, that's not a reasonable suggestion on a brand new $100K car.

no, not fixed, I finally got BMW NA involved but they are useless as the service, as they claim that they don't have access to engineering. All they can do is call up my service and get me an update which i can do by myself.

Now that I'm moving to California, they are betting on that the issue will dissapear as I won't be using the winter blend anymore. And told me once I use couple of tanks of local gas to put the engine cover back on.

XZLR8
03-19-2012, 01:37 PM
no, not fixed, I finally got BMW NA involved but they are useless as the service, as they claim that they don't have access to engineering. All they can do is call up my service and get me an update which i can do by myself.

Now that I'm moving to California, they are betting on that the issue will dissapear as I won't be using the winter blend anymore. And told me once I use couple of tanks of local gas to put the engine cover back on.
The latest news I'm getting is that BMW is well aware of the problem, as it's been happening with more and more 6ers, and have made it a "top priority." Like in your situation, it was suggested that I leave the engine cover off to prevent future vapor locking. After some back and forth with my (truly fantastic) dealership and the Powers That Be at BMW, I'm happy to report that BMW has really stepped up to the plate to rectify my situation.

I've purchased a lot of BMWs over the years, mostly because I love the cars, but it's also due to the fact that when I've had a problem, my dealership and BMWNA have always been there to make it right.

And THAT, my friends, is how you keep a customer.

mtuncy
03-19-2012, 05:30 PM
The latest news I'm getting is that BMW is well aware of the problem, as it's been happening with more and more 6ers, and have made it a "top priority." Like in your situation, it was suggested that I leave the engine cover off to prevent future vapor locking. After some back and forth with my (truly fantastic) dealership and the Powers That Be at BMW, I'm happy to report that BMW has really stepped up to the plate to rectify my situation.

I've purchased a lot of BMWs over the years, mostly because I love the cars, but it's also due to the fact that when I've had a problem, my dealership and BMWNA have always been there to make it right.

And THAT, my friends, is how you keep a customer.

so I'm wondering if this really is an issue caused by the winter blend fuel or a more permanent issue that can surface in any car? should I let it go now and not be concerned as I'm not using any winter blend or wait until they fix yours so I can piggyback on the solution? lol!

XZLR8
03-19-2012, 07:32 PM
so I'm wondering if this really is an issue caused by the winter blend fuel or a more permanent issue that can surface in any car? should I let it go now and not be concerned as I'm not using any winter blend or wait until they fix yours so I can piggyback on the solution? lol!
Nobody mentioned winter blend fuel as a potential culprit... and I even asked about it.

The Service Manager at my dealership is attending some sort of meeting with engineers from BMW in Las Vegas this week, where he hopes to get a definitive answer on a long-term/permanent fix. For now, the only thing they have been able to come up with is the removal of the engine cover. With the cover on, they get faults thrown.

(I can tell you more about the resolution to my specific situation privately, if you'd like.)

vegadonovan
08-26-2013, 04:50 PM
Morning peeps.

I had the same error when I was going on low- medium boost while joining the freeway traffic. It went away after I restarted. The next day it's back.

Brought it back to dealer and they change the Turbo pressure valve sensor ( will get the exact name since the receipt is in the car now) and it solved the issue. Been fine ever since.

Hope it helps anyone with this information.

Detrick
08-27-2013, 05:10 AM
I saw this error a couple of years ago after I purchased my car. Then again last week over a two day period. I filled up again at a different gas station and the error never returned. It has been several days now, no issues.

That said, if you see this error, try a different gas. Your BMW dealer will be more than happy to change sensors and parts under warranty in the hopes of alleviating the gas quality issue :).

vegadonovan
09-12-2013, 09:10 PM
I checked.

it's called:

PRESSURE CONVERTER SENSOR

Drivetrain issue resolved for me after this part change.

=)