okay, reread R&T handling issue....E46M3 issues...

[blackdawg]

okay, we started this and talked about it on the 3 series board, but it seemed, with retrospect, to be more appropriate for this board.

i reread the article with great interest. some of the more interesting points are that the boxster S is too underpowered to really use the throttle to kick the rear out....the evo VII has been tuned for some serious oversteer if provoked.....and the M3 goes sideways too much.

in fact, the CART driver, bryan herta (on his homecourse) says he resisted the tendency and then couldn't fight it anymore and just sloppily threw the M3 around the roadcourse sideways.

that's not my idea of a fine handling machine, and these guys are REAL drivers, with at least some level of club racer ability on the R&T staff.

leaves me shaking my head wondering about my M3 order even more today than yesterday. the raison d'etre of the M3 was my thinking that it's more stable to throw around on the track, i already spend much of my time wagging the M coupe's tail ont he track and it is NOT the fastest way around the track.

[RSKeisuke]

From personal experience and the commentary of others, I can say that the biggest problem, if anything, is understeer. Perhaps something funny was going on with their car?

[blackdawg]

my gut tells me that most of us never exceed the understeer the german engineers dial into the suspension. even on driver's school days.

but these guys clearly know how to toss cars around on the track for both subjective evaluations paired with objective clocking of speed and time through several sections of the track.

the M3 fared now much better than the boxster S (think about the sheer power advantage here) in the increasing radius hairpin onto the straightaway. there were 3 groupings, one group (underpowered cars) like the MP3 did this section in about 12.3x seconds, the second grouping (boxster S and M3) did it in about 11.7 seconds, the fastest group (360 modena and Z06 vette) did it in about 11 flat.

[nate]

Originally posted by blackdawg
i reread the article with great interest. some of the more interesting points are that the boxster S is too underpowered to really use the throttle to kick the rear out....the evo VII has been tuned for some serious oversteer if provoked.....and the M3 goes sideways too much.

in fact, the CART driver, bryan herta (on his homecourse) says he resisted the tendency and then couldn't fight it anymore and just sloppily threw the M3 around the roadcourse sideways.


Wow, they thought the M3 was too prone to oversteer, I don't remember ever hearing that before. :dunno:

I know the Evo and the STi are tuned for oversteer and great handling, rally racing requires it.

It seems that pro drives would have a different opintion than the less skilled guys...I don't think many amatuers are going to attempt drifting an E46 M3 around the whole circut :dunno:

[Alex Baumann]

Sorry to chime in, but are you guys talking about stock M3s or race M3s ?

I have a bunch of comparison, long-run, street and track tests of the E46 M3 and I haven't read any single bit of complaints you guyz are reporting (i.e. handling, light steering)

The drivers who tested the M3 are professional race pilots and I assume they all know their job very well.

The only complaint about the M3 is the 'harsh' suspension on the street. But they all swear that this machine is born to be driven on the track.

[nate]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann
Sorry to chime in, but are you guys talking about stock M3s or race M3s ?

I have a bunch of comparison, long-run, street and track tests of the E46 M3 and I haven't read any single bit of complaints you guyz are reporting (i.e. handling, light steering)

The drivers who tested the M3 are professional race pilots and I assume they all know their job very well.

The only complaint about the M3 is the 'harsh' suspension on the street. But they all swear that this machine is born to be driven on the track.

They are talking about a street M3....

I haven't read it yet, but EVERY other thing about the E46 M3 that I have read is just what you said. Some compare it to the E30 M3 in terms of it's driving. It is meant to be at the track and is very stiff on the street :dunno:

[blackdawg]

first off: read the article and then post back here what you think.

second: the e30m3, as far as i can tell, is not tail happy. it doesn't have the power to be slipping and sliding all over the track. it is a surgeon's knife on the track. more than that, it's pretty darn forgiving, too, of midcorner input.

third: the E46m3 is amazing poor at holding a line, and this has to do with prodigious power. that said, it seems, once you get over the low speed or initial push, it will break away (gradually) into oversteer tailhappiness. now the e36m3 would give you not much warning and just snap into tailhappiness. at least the new car is more progressive, that said, it's not exactly quick through the curves because it needs more grip in the rear or maybe some aftermarket suspension work to keep it less tailhappy upon powering out at the apex to track out points.

at least this is a semi-quantitative article and you can see the raw data of how each car handles the braking zone, the turn-in, the apex speed, lateral g's, and speed at track out.

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by blackdawg
first off: read the article and then post back here what you think.

I don't have the article :cry:

EDIT : Is there an online source to read it ?

[obLu]

But what you're describing goes against every testimonial I've read about the e46m3 so far. They've all said the exact opposite, that it's almost too benign and forgiving at the limit.

I suspect either track conditions, or greasy tires. Maybe they'd overheated them doing drag runs or something? :dunno:

I never put too much stock in R&T articles; don't get me wrong I like the writing but I wouldn't call it reporting. All too often they make definitive statements about cars in their tests only to have little blurbs hidden away about how the tires were worn, or the test fleet car had been beat to hell before they got it, or track conditions were severe. I'm not faulting them, just saying I wouldn't stake a pivotal decision on what their magazine had to say.

[nate]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann


I don't have the article :cry:

EDIT : Is there an online source to read it ?

It may be posted here eventually http://www.roadandtrack.com/

I have seen this magazine on sale in Euorpe, you should be able to get it in print some time...

I'm going to try to get it today. I may scan it for you :p

[Alex Baumann]

Originally posted by nate328Ci


It may be posted here eventually http://www.roadandtrack.com/

I have seen this magazine on sale in Euorpe, you should be able to get it in print some time...

I'm going to try to get it today. I may scan it for you :p

thanks, I've checked the link, but couldn't find it there. I think I'll buy the magazine.

[ALEX325i]

Originally posted by Alex Baumann
Sorry to chime in, but are you guys talking about stock M3s or race M3s ?

I have a bunch of comparison, long-run, street and track tests of the E46 M3 and I haven't read any single bit of complaints you guyz are reporting (i.e. handling, light steering)

The drivers who tested the M3 are professional race pilots and I assume they all know their job very well.

The only complaint about the M3 is the 'harsh' suspension on the street. But they all swear that this machine is born to be driven on the track.

Couldn't agree more Alex. That's kind of what I implied on the other thread when I said "... after seeing what Tiff Needle and others did with the car..." I mean, the SpeedVision guys really abused it on a wet track and none of its competitors (Hartge and B3) came even close...

Edit:

I agree with some of their findings (Blackdawg, correct me if I'm wrong - haven't read the article). Some of its competitors do handle better. As a previous Corvette owner, I'd think the Z06 outhandles the E46 M3... I think I pointed that out when I posted my first impressions about the E46 M3 on the .ORG...

[RSKeisuke]

Originally posted by ALEX325i

As a previous Corvette owner, I'd think the Z06 outhandles the E46 M3... I think I pointed that out when I posted my first impressions about the E46 M3 on the .ORG...

Of course, the corvette is much lighter, and despite that it uses leaf springs the Z06 is definitely meant to be more of a track animal than the M3.

[nate]

Originally posted by blackdawg
third: the E46m3 is amazing poor at holding a line,

Maybe this is why a strut brace will now be factory equipment :dunno:

[.Gravedgr.]

Originally posted by nate328Ci
Maybe this is why a strut brace will now be factory equipment :dunno:
Are you sure about this? A lot of people have been spreading this rumor, but BMWNA denied it to my dealer a couple of weeks ago.

[JPinTO]

Ok... I finally got the magazine today. It was truly sad to see the M3 in 7th place.. just ahead (and barely at that) of the MP3!?!?!

I wouldn't dismiss this as just "R&T" drivel.... the tests were well setup with what seemed to be very reasonable scoring and weighting of the subjective & objective. Track segment times were from 2 selected curves from Buttonwillow race track. Subjective Track evaluations were done by a guest pro race driver (Bryan Herta).

Scoring:
50% Objective performance

25% Road Subjective Ratings by R&T editors

25% Track Subjective Ratings by Bryan Herta

[JPinTO]

What was shocking is when you look at the breakdowns in each category, the M3 did shockingly poorly. The M3 didn't get shafted because of 1 bad category, it was bottom pack in virtually every category.

- Slalom: M3 tied for worst spot with Z06 (Elise #1)

- Skidpad: M3 in worst spot behind MP3 (Z06 #1)

- Hairpin Segment Time: M3 in worst spot behind Boxster S (F360 #1)

- Transition Segment Time: M3 in second last spot ahead of MP3 behind 911T (Elise #1)

So overall Performance Category standing: M3 2nd last barely ahead of MP3 by 1.3 points (out of possible 140 points) behind Boxster S by 4 points.

[JPinTO]

Editors subjectively rated the following:

- Steering Response
- Balance
- Throttle Response
- Gearbox
- Brakes
- Confidence Factor
- Driving Excitement

Scores were fairly close among the entire pack with the M3 midpack with 4th place finish behind 911T, F360 and BoxsterS. There was less than 3 points separating the M3 and the 911T (out of possible 70 points)

The M3 held it's own fairly well, without receiving top honors in any category, but fortunately neither did it receive bottom marks. (whewww!)

[JPinTO]

In this category, based on the purely subjective evaluation of the guest driver based on lapping Buttonwillow track the M3 placed last.

- Steering Response: M3 placed a distant last behind the BoxsterS & 911T. (#1 Elise)

- Balance: M3 placed last behind the BoxsterS & 911T (#1 F360&Elise&MP3)

- Throttle Response: M3 ties for first with Z06&F360

- Gearbox: M3 is midpack between MP3 at the bottom and #1 F360

- Brakes: M3 is midpack between MP3 at the bottom and #1 Elise

- Confidence Factor: M3 dead last behind Z06 & 911T (#1 MP3)

- Driving Excitement: M3 midpack between BoxsterS at the bottom & #1 F360


Track Subjective SubTotal: The M3 placed dead last behind the MP3 by 3 points (out of 70) and behind the #1 F360 by 16 points. :yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

[JPinTO]

Summary:

So after placing 2nd last in the Objective Performance category, 4th in the Road Subjective category and last in the Track Subjective category, the final totals come in:

The M3 ranks 2nd last ahead of the MP3 by a thin 2 point margin. It was just behind the BoxsterS with a 9 point deficit (out of possible 280 points) #1 was the F360.

The only category the M3 came first in was throttle response. (The MP3 came first in balance and confidence factor.)

The good news is that the editors comments were glowing: They all loved it for street use. :)

"Tail out fun that's easy to drive and pleasantly predictable when pushed. Onroad manner strike a good compromise between grip & comfort".

[Mystikal]

Read the article today. It just added to my theory that the M3 needs the same tire sizes as the M5, with 245's in the front and 275's in the rear. That is simply too much HP for 255's and a trick LSD to deal with.

I still hate R&T with a passion though. I once subscribed for 7 years, from 1991-1998. I just can't stand them anymore. I can feel another C&D set of handling tests returning soon, however. Now that the Viper has been redesigned every car from the previous 1997 test has been either modified or completely redone.

Time for round 3 (the first shootout was in the 80's).

[blackdawg]

so, some of us have had time to digest the article. that's stupid 5th grade level writing, of course.

the important stuff is the telemetry data.

while the subjectiver stuff is leading, it's not conclusive. the MPH into varying portions of the two curves are quite telling, really.

my thoughts, now that i've thought about it:

obviously, the tires (OEM) need some shoring up. dunno if the unidirectional treads are all that important. personally, i would migrate to more aggressive DRY only tires, even run victoracers or V700s on the street.

secondly, it does speak to a need for more tread in the rear. a comparable (in character car) setup is that of the modena where it's torque high in teh rpm range (and not all that much of it, either) with high HP has at least 275 in the rear.

255s are barely enough tread for the M coupe, s52 or s54, so it's hard to imagine (other than for COST SAVINGS) that 255 is enough in the rear for the new M3.

[sgalaba]

Coky,

The M3 is going to be much faster than the M coupe. The first day out at different road courses I'm just as fast on my first day out if not faster than I was in my M coupe after two years of racing it.

[nate]

What kind of tires was the M3 on? Contisports or Pilot Sports?

I agree that the tires are too small on the M3. 225s up front is way too small. M5 sizes would be great, or even 245 front/ 265 rear....

[Mystikal]

Originally posted by sgalaba
Coky,

The M3 is going to be much faster than the M coupe. The first day out at different road courses I'm just as fast on my first day out if not faster than I was in my M coupe after two years of racing it.

Was your M Coupe an S54 though? :confused:

[blackdawg]

um sgalaba's M coupe was S52 engine'd but it was one of the fastest ones on the planet:

it was one of the only dinan INTERCOOLED supercharged M coupes ever made.

so if he says he's already faster around track circuits in his M3, i believe him before he finishes the sentence. i have no doubt it handles better than the M coupe.

the M coupe isn't my idea of a great handling car. it's a humongous muscle operated by a quick trigger reflex.

:thumb:

p.s. Hi Scott! can you give us some car to car comparisons since you've probably gotten a feel for the M3 now? i'm outrageously curious since i have to wait until september.

cheers,
coky

[Mystikal]

Sorry for being uninformed :( I remember reading an article in Bimmer magazine years ago with an M Roadster that I believe was intercooled also...I should go dig it up.