PDA

View Full Version : Check What I found now about V8 cars


phlfly
08-03-2012, 01:33 AM
I was reading a thread on 5series forum about the guy whom is decided to replace all oil seals on V8 engine, and guess what he found they are all in the very good condition (130,000 miles).
So then I did recearch about all cooling theory (cooler engine = less leaks) and I found that 550 has oil cooler when 545 doesn't , so on 545 engine is running hotter and that is reason we see a lot oil leaks on this engine.

550: http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=NB53&mospid=48806&hg=17

545: http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=NB33&mospid=47759&hg=17

TRS550
08-03-2012, 05:56 AM
Very interesting.

Thanks for the headsup!!

dolfan13
08-03-2012, 06:18 AM
I found the same and asked around about adding an oil cooler but have no response!!Are you thinking about adding oem or aftermarket?I have already replaced the seal under the alternator bracket and would hate to go there again.That being said an aftermarket would circulate continually and I don't know how this would effect overall temps.I really think there's something to this.

dolfan13
08-03-2012, 06:39 AM
Would like to add the 550 oil cooler system has I believe a thermostat opening only at higher temps.Its been 100 deg in Lexington ky for many days and over 90 for 2 months.545s received oil coolers but only in hotter climates.Maybe north America needed the oil cooler after all.

2004nav
08-03-2012, 09:25 AM
Hello all,
accoring to some, the oil cooler is located in front of the readiator. Is that correct? If so, it would seem that I do have an oil cooler in my car. Was this an option on the 545's?

dolfan13
08-03-2012, 10:18 AM
I'm not sure ,check could be the trans cooler?

2004nav
08-03-2012, 10:45 AM
My Car is a 6 speed. Not sure but I don't believe a trans cooler is required or can be fitted on a manual tranny?

phlfly
08-03-2012, 10:48 AM
Hello all,
accoring to some, the oil cooler is located in front of the readiator. Is that correct? If so, it would seem that I do have an oil cooler in my car. Was this an option on the 545's?

May be or it was retrofit by previous owner. May be you are seeing air-conditioner condenser.

http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=NB33&mospid=47759&btnr=64_1342&hg=64&fg=55

2004nav
08-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Good point! could be the A/C condenser? the part is very narrow and almost spans the legnth of the radiator. Looks like the part listed here:
http://www.***************/ShopByDepartment/Oil_Cooler/BMW/545I/2004

2004nav
08-03-2012, 11:01 AM
let me try that again...

2004nav
08-03-2012, 11:03 AM
Sorry everyone! Not sure why the link does not show up. Anyhow, if you want to have a look it's at "partstrain . com"

phlfly
08-03-2012, 03:37 PM
Use a pdf

Dking078
08-03-2012, 04:01 PM
Very interesting find :thumbup:

racooper3
08-03-2012, 05:56 PM
Would be interested to know this and why BMW didn't offer a retrokit to put on the 04/05 545. Can anyone ask around and see if there is a kit or if the parts from 550 can be installed on the 545.

phlfly
08-03-2012, 07:17 PM
Yes, this is for sure, and more important why is such big oil cooler?
I had E46 M3 and it small, standard size.
http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=BL93&mospid=47714&hg=17

racooper3
08-03-2012, 08:10 PM
So if we had the following items we could add oil cooler to our 545. What is the thing that the oil thermostat is attached to. Bottom of oil filter housing for a 550? I don't have diagrams for the n63 or n62n engines. How is it mounted; in front of the main coolant radiator or behind it? are these parts adaptable to a stock 545 or do you have to change some of the 545 parts to mount these items. Would like to see 550 setup and/or get advise from Master mechanic. Perhaps a smaller aftermarket cooler can be had, but need to figure out the oil thermostat setup piece in the 141.png below.

http://realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/l/r/141.png
http://realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/b/f/221.png

hmc
08-03-2012, 08:40 PM
I checked my car and I can confirm my car has the oil cooler, which is located inner most right before the fans.
I think the location sequence is as follows (from back to front):

Fan
Oil cooler
Radiator
AC Condensor
PowerSteering cooler
Front Bumper

bimmerfan52
08-03-2012, 09:22 PM
I was reading a thread on 5series forum about the guy whom is decided to replace all oil seals on V8 engine, and guess what he found they are all in the very good condition (130,000 miles).
So then I did recearch about all cooling theory (cooler engine = less leaks) and I found that 550 has oil cooler when 545 doesn't , so on 545 engine is running hotter and that is reason we see a lot oil leaks on this engine.

550: http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=NB53&mospid=48806&hg=17

545: http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=NB33&mospid=47759&hg=17

Please share links to you research regarding "cooler engine = less leaks" or extending gasket life.

racooper3
08-04-2012, 05:18 AM
I checked my car and I can confirm my car has the oil cooler, which is located inner most right before the fans.
I think the location sequence is as follows (from back to front):

Fan
Oil cooler
Radiator
AC Condensor
PowerSteering cooler
Front Bumper

Thanks HMC. I'll look into if the 545 can be retrofitted for this oil cooler.

I have always thought how strangely hot the car is when I roll window down at a drive through window. The heat coming out from underneath is pretty intense. There is likely something to this with the seals going bad on the car. Although mine is 7 years old now and I am sure the heat has gotten to many of the o-rings and other seals. I have an oil leak somewhere now and have to get that looked at soon.

dolfan13
08-04-2012, 06:26 AM
Thanks racooper looks to be some good research!I have read its the same block structure,familyas 550.The 550 must have a different alternator bracket.Also a aftermarket cooler seems to be a problem in that adapting 545i style canister oil filter holder to a sandwich type tap to hose,coil.

phlfly
08-04-2012, 09:24 AM
Please share links to you research regarding "cooler engine = less leaks" or extending gasket life.

http://forums.5series.net/topic/125318-look-what-ive-got-myself-into/

This thread I started from, when this guy reported he was suprised to find the seals where in the good condition.

Also, if BMW went with oil coller on 550, I guess it was a problem with 545 V8, so it's major redesign from any stand point, new engine, oil cooler, bigger cooling fan as well.

bimmerfan52
08-04-2012, 02:45 PM
http://forums.5series.net/topic/125318-look-what-ive-got-myself-into/

This thread I started from, when this guy reported he was suprised to find the seals where in the good condition.

Also, if BMW went with oil coller on 550, I guess it was a problem with 545 V8, so it's major redesign from any stand point, new engine, oil cooler, bigger cooling fan as well.

The reason I asked about your research is I have never heard that gasket life is extended or general engine condition is automatically improved by running an oil cooler, but I certainly would like to hear of any industry research supporting that theory.

The idea of running a cooler is great.
Obviously all race cars and many hi-performance cars employ oil coolers, primarily to prevent oil viscosity reduction due to excessive heat from reaching a critical level under high shear conditions to the point that hydrodynamic lubrication ceases and is replaced with boundary lubrication that can quickly cause significant wear on journal bearings and connecting rod bearings (hence the HTHS test employed by oil manufacturers). Normal passenger cars employing turbochargers and/or piston squirters are also driving oil temperatures significantly higher. And nearly all heavy duty trucks designed for heavy loads or towing employ engine oil coolers.

A secondary benefit to a reduction in oil temperature in any car is reduction of oil oxidation due to heat, making oil last longer. Oil experts estimate that each 10 degree rise in oil temperature doubles the oil oxidation rate and thus halves the oil's life.

But I would be cautious in drawing conclusions about the effects of an oil cooler on the long term condition of gaskets or engine cleanliness based upon casual evidence, as correlation does not prove causation. I would be curious to hear if maintenance records for the car with 130K miles being used as evidence are available. I would bet the oil was changed on strict schedule with either fairly short drain intervals or experienced mostly highway driving.

The N62TU engine employed in the 550, 650 and 750 employed oil coolers. In fact the famous “gasket to nowhere” the alternator bracket gasket on the 545’s N62B44 engine covers a hole designed for as an engine oil cooler pickup point. Here is a post of casual evidence of the opposite nature, discussing the N62TU engine which employs an engine oil cooler. The poster states:

“I would avoid a high mileage convertible 6 series(E64), they can be problematic. The coupe is the much safer choice. The N62TU is a good engine, but generally by 60k miles can/will start to leak oil. The vacuum pump, upper timing cover/valve covers, and oil cooler/alternator bracket are generally the most common leaks and can be expensive to repair.”
Original Post - http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forumshowthread.php?t=1806973

Anyone interested in installing an aftermarket engine oil cooler should use extreme caution in choosing a unit with racing quality hose fittings and reinforced steel braided hoses. There are many horror stories where low quality hoses or fittings fail, and the entire contents of the oil sump ends up dumped on the highway so fast that there is no time to react and save the engine. Also experimentation will be required to measure the additional oil required to fill the radiator and lines with oil and still insure the sump reaches the proper level. Overfilling the sump is very dangerous.

IMHO changing your oil every 150 hours/5000 miles/6 months (whichever is less) and using high quality full synthetic oil will yield optimum results. Keeping oil additive content high and acid content low will really extend gasket life and keep your engine components sparkling clean. If you occasionally push your engine hard then employing an oil with a HTHS viscosity of 3.7 or greater (typically found in multi-viscosity oils of 40 grade or higher) insures additional high oil temperature protection.

But again, if there is evidence in industry research with controlled experiments correlating the use of engine oil coolers with improved engine condition (everything else being equal) I am most interested. I have in the past considered adding an engine oil cooler, but didn’t feel the risk of system failure was worth the improvement in oil temperature, given that I don’t track the car and given my short oil drain intervals.

Thanks for the original post as we are always anxious to learn something new!

phlfly
08-04-2012, 04:24 PM
I would agree it may not have evidence of improving seal life with oil cooler but it has evidence of the hot environment made seal brittle. So Toyota or Honda engines doesn't have oil leaks from the engine almost. So if it's taking this for consideration BMW should not have this problem before 100K at least. But we all know it's a problem so I guess BMW engine is running hotter then Toyota or Honda at normal driving conditions. So I guess combination oil cooler and short oil intervals can help longer life for engine gaskets. Also Bmw had cheap out with oil cooler on 545 and we know result, even from this forum we can 550 has less cases for oil leaks. Also I can agree with you on high viscosity oils if you are tracking it but for normal driving and short oil changes it would not a problem and I think it would benefit to use less viscosity oils like Mobil 5w-30 or even 0w-30.

bimmerfan52
08-04-2012, 05:46 PM
I would agree it may not have evidence of improving seal life with oil cooler but it has evidence of the hot environment made seal brittle. So Toyota or Honda engines doesn't have oil leaks from the engine almost. So if it's taking this for consideration BMW should not have this problem before 100K at least. But we all know it's a problem so I guess BMW engine is running hotter then Toyota or Honda at normal driving conditions. So I guess combination oil cooler and short oil intervals can help longer life for engine gaskets. Also Bmw had cheap out with oil cooler on 545 and we know result, even from this forum we can 550 has less cases for oil leaks. Also I can agree with you on high viscosity oils if you are tracking it but for normal driving and short oil changes it would not a problem and I think it would benefit to use less viscosity oils like Mobil 5w-30 or even 0w-30.

Again, I think you are using casual evidence to jump to causality. You show an instance of a good engine and attribute it automatically to the cooler. I show you an instance of another experience with other N62s with coolers that had bad gaskets. Neither means anything.

You say "it has the Evidence of the hot environment made seal brittle" - Where is the evidence or are you guessing?

You say "so I guess BMW engine is running hotter then Toyota or Honda" - Which Toyota or Honda engines run a lower oil temperature? Because Japanese car gaskets don't fail as often, to further your narritive you guess that the Honda and Toyota engines run cooler. Of course you don't know that (or if you do please bring the evidence forward). You aren't allowing for the possibility that because Honda is the largest engine manufacturer in the world they design better gasket entrapment which results in less leaks. Remember they build state-of-the-art race engines also. But I am not comparing Honda 2.4L engines to BMW 4.4L engines. Different animals entirely, with a much more conservative approach by Honda.

When BMW upgraded the N62 engine (to the 4.8L N62B48) major changes were made to the gasket design. Look at the front end of the two engines. I really don't think it was the oil cooler that dramatically improved gasket life. Again, other early N62 models that had coolers also had a poor history of gasket failure. Read the history in the 6-series and 7-series sections of this forum to see.

I'll wait for evidence from controlled quantitative research.

phlfly
08-04-2012, 07:52 PM
In case 7 series is 745, 750 (E66, E67, E68) has oil cooler (but early models didn't have oil cooler and they have high rate cooling pipe seal failure) but small as on my M3 only F01 550 got full size oil cooler and oil leaking degrease dramatically even cooling pipe seal failures are almost gone to nothing.

http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=HL83&mospid=48475&hg=17
This is may be explain mass of the cooling pipe seal failures on 745 and 750. It could be, right?
May be BMW was trying to fix this problem more than oil gasket failures. If you are remember those cooling seal problem were at 50,000 miles at some cases. It's almost like Porsche was fixing plastic pipe replacing their with metal on V8 engines.

In case 6 series (E63 and E64), it's same picture as 545 vs 550, 645 didn't have oil cooler and 650 has one.
http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=EK13&mospid=48815&hg=17
http://realoem.com/bmw/partgrp.do?model=EK73&mospid=47770&hg=17

About Honda and Toyota engines could be compare to BMW I-6 that has oil leaking problem.
I have evidence on my car I have 80,000 miles and none of seal were replaced yet (knocking on wood) and previous owner was followed manufacture recommended oil intervals. So I guess it's evidence. Also I'm not going to demagogue with you about evidences, just read this website much often. I was here since I had E46 325 and this car had a big problem with valve gasket. Also all Benz has same problem. So Japanese are using better rubber I don't know and don't think so, it's more likely it's coming from one factory in China. Do you think BMW would not go with better rubber if it's available?

dolfan13
08-07-2012, 04:53 PM
Anybody on here from gulf countries or south africa?These are the places that 545i oil coolers were standard.Would like to know if they had the same oil leak issues.

z06bigbird
08-09-2012, 09:31 PM
1. "Cooler" next to radiator is a/c condensor.
2. Cooler under car is for beer.
3. Standard tranny does not have a cooler because tranny uses 90 wt oil. You would need a really powerful pump to force that grease thru the system. One clog would cook standard tranny.
4. Tranny (automative type) are fairly small, perhaps 20 inches long with 2, 3, or 4 rows of fins.
5. Power steering cooler is even smaller. Two rows of fins about 6 inches long or less.

dolfan13
08-10-2012, 04:18 AM
Don't mean to sound smart but what's your point z06bigbird.