ZHP at the track (report)

[adc]

I took my 2003 ZHP this past weekend to Summit Point Main Circuit, together with two other friends. They were driving a 2003 Audi 1.8T and a 98 M3/2. After two days of hard(?) driving, here are my observations.

First of all, the ZHP is fast, similar to a stock E36 M3 (with equivalent drivers). It looses in some slow corners because it doesn't have that much low end grunt, but it makes up in the top end and on the bumpy sections, where the chassis is more settled. I know some people might dispute this, but I found that the drivers matter far more than the difference between cars - and the little mistakes matter most. I would also qualify this statement within our effective speed group (somewhere between novices and intermediates), no idea if this would hold true for the advanced.

I'm not saying it either because I was the fastest of the bunch, because I wasn't.

Now with that out of the way, I have to say the stock brakes with Axxis Ultimate pads are the worst component of the car. As the weekend unfolded and I was picking up speed, the brakes were worked harder and harder and they performed worse and worse. I picked up so much pad residue on the rotors that it now feels as if the ABS is engaging at every brake application - either that or the pads are completely gone. Next time, I'll put track pads on for more confident braking.

Everything else performed beautifully. Engine was willing and pulling hard to the redline, suspension was good (for street cars anyway), tires were a little greasy as expected but predictable. A good shot of 100 octane on Sunday made it scream even harder in the upper ranges.

I also found that having slightly longer gears helped me get more speed on certain sections of the track and made me loose a little ground only in turn 1. But like I said, I was usually able to make up for that lost ground - and more.

I experimented with tire pressures and found tat 36 front / 38 back worked best. If the difference is any bigger, all you get is more understeer. Maybe next time I'll try 38 overall. I can now (finally) understand why some people use 235 or 245 tires all around on the track.

That's about it, I'll spare you the bragging and posturing :). We all had a blast and managed to keep the sunny side up. If you have any specific questions, ask away.

adc
03 330 ZHP

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Hey!

Geez, you'd think I'd have made the connection...

I'd strongly recommend the Performance Friction 97s for your car. Mine were having a bit of trouble by the end of the weekend, but I think that had a lot to do with the extra weight and power of my car. When these wear out, I'll upgrade to the 01s. It's too bad our cars don't use the same pads, otherwise I'd cut you a deal on mine.

As a bonus, they work very well cold, so you can put them on early, and delay changing them out without worries over dire consequences.

My instructor commented that he'd recommended that they never put me in the C group again... I think I was making some of the other students nervous out there. Turn 1 and the Turn 4-5 zone got pretty hairy a few times when traffic in front of me slowed up a WHOLE lot more than I'd expected. The M3 is just disgustingly fast, and my instructor coaxed me into some pretty stupendous speeds by the end of the weekend. I was regularly shifting into fifth gear and hitting about 145 on the main straight. Whenever people recommended braking zones, I had to do my best not to laugh--I was hitting maximum braking force immediately after the first of the hashmarks going into turn 1. Even then, I was still trail braking on corner entrance.

Interestly, Gary's classroom advice on Turn 4 was helpful in a round about way... I stopped scrubbing off speed so I could downshift into third gear, and started just tapping the brakes to make the car turn in. It seemed VERY stable to me that way.

...but there was no way in hell I was going to try just keeping my foot in it on corner entrance. I really don't think that advice applies well to a high power car.

It was nice seeing you out there... IIRC, yours and the white wagon's lines were very much among the better ones I saw.

[adc]

Next time swap cars with your friend if you could, that would be a more accurate assessment.

RE: Brakes...You're not letting it cool off properly. There are a few things you can do to alleviate the problem without having to use track pads, and believe me track pads would make your pad deposite problem WORSE since they generate a lot more heat. Either learn to extend your braking zone, or let the brakes cool off before coming off the track (don't use the brakes at all during your cool down lap). Brake cooling duct would go a very long way to solve this problem once and for all.

On a staggered tire setup, you would probably get the best result if you run the fronts slightly higher than the rears.

Glad people are now starting to take these Performance Package cars somewhere they truly belong. Good job, thanks for the write-up.

Well I sort of did swap out cars: I used to own that M3/2 and I did take it to Summit Point 2 years ago. Then last year I took the ZHP brand-new to the same track so I think I'm almost qualified to make that statement :).

I understand what you mean about the track pads, but I hope they will still provide some relief, since they "melt" at a much higher temperature. I also want to brake as late as possible, I had absolutely no trouble at all keeping it before the threshold of ABS engagement. Then agan, Dave from Zeckhausen Racing did tell me well in advance what would happen, and he recommended some Hawks I think. I just wasn't able to slide it past the wife this time.

Thanks for the tire pressure recommendation, I'll definitely try that the next time.

And heck yes, the ZHP will go to the track every year, this year maybe a second time too. I'd die if I had to muck around in traffic all year long without this relief.

adc
03 330 ZHP

[adc]

Hey!

Geez, you'd think I'd have made the connection...

I'd strongly recommend the Performance Friction 97s for your car. Mine were having a bit of trouble by the end of the weekend, but I think that had a lot to do with the extra weight and power of my car. When these wear out, I'll upgrade to the 01s. It's too bad our cars don't use the same pads, otherwise I'd cut you a deal on mine.

As a bonus, they work very well cold, so you can put them on early, and delay changing them out without worries over dire consequences.

My instructor commented that he'd recommended that they never put me in the C group again... I think I was making some of the other students nervous out there. Turn 1 and the Turn 4-5 zone got pretty hairy a few times when traffic in front of me slowed up a WHOLE lot more than I'd expected. The M3 is just disgustingly fast, and my instructor coaxed me into some pretty stupendous speeds by the end of the weekend. I was regularly shifting into fifth gear and hitting about 145 on the main straight. Whenever people recommended braking zones, I had to do my best not to laugh--I was hitting maximum braking force immediately after the first of the hashmarks going into turn 1. Even then, I was still trail braking on corner entrance.

Interestly, Gary's classroom advice on Turn 4 was helpful in a round about way... I stopped scrubbing off speed so I could downshift into third gear, and started just tapping the brakes to make the car turn in. It seemed VERY stable to me that way.

...but there was no way in hell I was going to try just keeping my foot in it on corner entrance. I really don't think that advice applies well to a high power car.

It was nice seeing you out there... IIRC, yours and the white wagon's lines were very much among the better ones I saw.

I didn't make the connection either, darn it... maybe next time we can hook up sooner and caravan over there...

Thanks for the compliment, I did have several people come over and comment positively on the lines and speed, but I'm trying as hard as I can not to let that get to my head. I figure I did have a few fast laps, but I now have to work at being consistently fast most of the time.

Where did you get the PF97s from? Did you put just fronts or all around? And I though someone somewhere had an M3 front brake conversion for the 330, I'll start a search.

The fastest I managed on the main straight was somewhere over 120, not sure exactly how much, I was too concentrated on braking from that speed... :yikes: But I did experience 140+ in my instructor's car, also an E46 M3. Even at my speed, I lost confidence in the brakes on Sunday and voluntarily reduced my top speed to around 110, all while extending the braking zone.

As to your speed, what can I say? My arm was up the window almost the moment I saw you :thumbup:. That E46 M3 is a wild beast indeed...

adc
03 330 ZHP

[adc]

Hey!
.

Nick,

I forgot to ask: were you faster than that TransAm? Just curious...

adc
03 330 ZHP

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Nick,

I forgot to ask: were you faster than that TransAm? Just curious...

adc
03 330 ZHP
In a straight line, we seemed about even (although it's possible he had a slight edge and just wasn't pushing it). I blew him away in the corners. I passed the M Coupe and the STi, as well.

Had mild oversteer pucker factor while accelerating through Turn 2 to make the pass on the STi, but I made up on him BIG time down the main straight and carried a whole lot more speed through Turn 1. (Late braking corner entries really help set you up for a pass.)

[adc]

In a straight line, we seemed about even (although it's possible he had a slight edge and just wasn't pushing it). I blew him away in the corners. I passed the M Coupe and the STi, as well.

Had mild oversteer pucker factor while accelerating through Turn 2 to make the pass on the STi, but I made up on him BIG time down the main straight and carried a whole lot more speed through Turn 1. (Late braking corner entries really help set you up for a pass.)

Is your suspension stock?

adc

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I have TC Kline D/A Konis up front.
I have TC Kline S/A E36 M3 Konis in the rear (the rear D/A Konis are on back order, so these came out of the wagon and will do until those come)
I also have a Ground Control front sway bar installed.

It's stockish, but not stock.

I'm quite pleased with how the car handles for the moment.

[KU Ned]

First of all, the ZHP is fast, similar to a stock E36 M3 (with equivalent drivers). It looses in some slow corners because it doesn't have that much low end grunt, but it makes up in the top end and on the bumpy sections, where the chassis is more settled. I know some people might dispute this, but I found that the drivers matter far more than the difference between cars - and the little mistakes matter most. I would also qualify this statement within our effective speed group (somewhere between novices and intermediates), no idea if this would hold true for the advanced.

adc
03 330 ZHP
adc,

Good hear you got your car out on a track. I have had mine at a couple of DE events and have the same general thoughts. I keep up with e36 M3's driven by guys that I know are at the same level as me. We all started together about 5 years ago and are now running in the advanced run group.

[jafo]

Adc,

I am glad to hear about your experience on the track. For the first time I put my car on the track this past weekend. We used Homestead Miami Speedway. Being a virgin at this I took it slow the first session. As my confident grew so did my speed. The car handles great. As I pick up more speed and braked later I did notice the pedal getting mushy. Other than that and my instructor holding me back the ZHP was faster than others with more horsepower. I have to figure out what to do with the brakes for next time. Track temp here goes way over a 100. Also played with tire pressure, 36 all around worked well. :D

[kurichan]

In a straight line, we seemed about even (although it's possible he had a slight edge and just wasn't pushing it). I blew him away in the corners. I passed the M Coupe and the STi, as well.

Had mild oversteer pucker factor while accelerating through Turn 2 to make the pass on the STi, but I made up on him BIG time down the main straight and carried a whole lot more speed through Turn 1. (Late braking corner entries really help set you up for a pass.)

Were the STi and M Coupe guys weak drivers? A ZHP shouldn't be blowing by those cars... Guess it's like you said, driver is more important than the car!

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Were the STi and M Coupe guys weak drivers? A ZHP shouldn't be blowing by those cars... Guess it's like you said, driver is more important than the car!
I don't drive a ZHP. :p

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

OK, here's my writeup of this weekend:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=800413#post800413

[RoyE46]

RE: Brakes...You're not letting it cool off properly. There are a few things you can do to alleviate the problem without having to use track pads, and believe me track pads would make your pad deposite problem WORSE since they generate a lot more heat...
Not true at all. I get bad glazing at the track with both stock pads and AXXIS Ultimates on my ZHP despite careful cooling, while a friend's identical car with Hawk HPS rear and PF-97 front has no such trouble. The glazing doesn't seem to keep the car from stopping, but the required pedal force rises quite a bit and pedal feel becomes unpredictable as the glaze is deposited and scraped off. The deposits are organics evaporating from the pad and condensing on the rotor, and are a symptom of the pad being designed for a lower temperature than it's seeing. Because the race pads are designed for higher temps they don't boil their binders out like the stockers. (I'm just repeating the explanation I got from both Dave Zeckhausen and Diversified Cryogenics.)

You'll want to change your brake fluid to Ate 200 or some such. I got slow degradation of pedal feel using the stock fluid at the track (10 days so far), and just changed the fluid today, finding the pedal feel is back to wonderful. It went bad so slowly I never really knew how bad it was. I thought it was the pads, but nope.

[Chris90]

RE: Brakes...You're not letting it cool off properly. There are a few things you can do to alleviate the problem without having to use track pads, and believe me track pads would make your pad deposite problem WORSE since they generate a lot more heat. Either learn to extend your braking zone, or let the brakes cool off before coming off the track (don't use the brakes at all during your cool down lap). Brake cooling duct would go a very long way to solve this problem once and for all.


Yeah, I ran my first few track days with aftermarket Metalmaster pads, I had problems and they even overheated and completely faded once. As I got more experienced and moved up to group 2, I switched to stock (Pagid) pads, and I did 5 track days on those without frying them. As you get more experienced, you will probably use your brakes less.
Definitely get new high temp brake fluid before each season though.

Glad you took that beast out there, it's great fun. I gave it up cause it's too expensive, but I had a blast while it lasted (10 track days).

[DZeckhausen]

As you get more experienced, you will probably use your brakes less.As you get more experienced, you should be using your brakes MORE, not less! When you learn the proper driving line, you carry more speed out of the last turn into the straight and thus carry more speed into the braking zone. The amount of kinetic energy converted into heat under braking is proportional to the SQUARE of the velocity, so just a slight increase in speed at the start of the braking zone has a major impact on rotor temperatures. For example, you convert as much energy to heat when slowing from 120-104 as you do when stopping from 60mph to zero.

The better you get, the harder and later you brake. Add in some R-compound tires and you will be slowing in a shorter distance, thus generating even more heat. If you are having brake problems now, they will only get worse as your skill level increases. Switch to Motul 600 brake fluid to cure the soft pedal problem (fluid fade) and swap your pads from stock to PFC 97 or PFC 01 to avoid pad fade.

And please, do NOT use Axxis Ultimate pads on the track beyond your first driving school. They are not appropriate for the track and leave more deposits on your rotors than even the OEM pads, despite their greater resitance to fading. It's a shame that some vendors choose to sell this pad as a track pad. It is most certainly not.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Track newbies tend to overheat the brakes because they brake way too early and too softly, hence heating the brakes up simply because they brake far too much.

Then you start braking later, but aren't carryng as much speed, so the brakes start working better.

Then you start driving harder and getting your line closer to right. You start entering the straights with a whole lot more speed, braking VERY hard even later, and you start REALLY heating everything up. Slowing from 145 to 65 MPH is not exactly easy on the brakes. Believe me, if I could have braked harder, I would have.

[Chris90]

Track newbies tend to overheat the brakes because they brake way too early and too softly, hence heating the brakes up simply because they brake far too much.

Then you start braking later, but aren't carryng as much speed, so the brakes start working better.

Then you start driving harder and getting your line closer to right. You start entering the straights with a whole lot more speed, braking VERY hard even later, and you start REALLY heating everything up. Slowing from 145 to 65 MPH is not exactly easy on the brakes. Believe me, if I could have braked harder, I would have.

The stock pads work just fine as long as you manage them. Other than time trials, there's usually enough traffic in the braking zones that you can't brake as hard as you'd like anyway. In my lighter, lower power car I don't beat up the brakes like 540 owners. I've had instructors drive my car flat out, and they don't have to ride the brakes to hard either. I did tend to avoid tracks that are hard on the brakes, like NH Speedway.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

The stock pads work just fine as long as you manage them. Other than time trials, there's usually enough traffic in the braking zones that you can't brake as hard as you'd like anyway. In my lighter, lower power car I don't beat up the brakes like 540 owners. I've had instructors drive my car flat out, and they don't have to ride the brakes to hard either. I did tend to avoid tracks that are hard on the brakes, like NH Speedway.
Well....

That's ONE way to deal with it. :p

If anything, I tended to shave my margins just a touch if there was traffic in the braking zones so I could get a passing signal on the way out.

[Chris90]

Well....

That's ONE way to deal with it. :p

If anything, I tended to shave my margins just a touch if there was traffic in the braking zones so I could get a passing signal on the way out.

When Will Zaraska drove my car at Tremblant, he'd go screaming up to the rear end of other cars to wait for that point-by. Was great fun to pass the entire intermediate group in my 325i! :thumbup: But I don't have his experience or skill, so I tend to back off in traffic.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

My favorite passing technique, as taught by my instructor was to back off a bit in the corners so that I'd get some space... And then come screaming up on corner exit. Had to leave a fair bit of margin when doing this, though, as you have to be abel to bleed of speed if they aren't alert enough to point you by.

[Chris90]

My favorite passing technique, as taught by my instructor was to back off a bit in the corners so that I'd get some space... And then come screaming up on corner exit. Had to leave a fair bit of margin when doing this, though, as you have to be abel to bleed of speed if they aren't alert enough to point you by.

Yes, that's what Will was doing, it's amazing what a great driver can do in a car like mine. I'm pretty fast in my own car, I'm good at heel & toe and have been solo'd, but the difference is that he seems to know how to use subtle weight transfer to maximize his front and rear grip. I don't have the hang of that yet.

[Roadhawk]

Wow! Sounds like great fun!

I have never tracked a car - but am planning on taking our ZHP to Nurburing when in Germany this summer -if at all possible. I know I'll likely play it conservative at first - but expect to get into the spirit of it all and (eventually) push it hard. Good to hear that the ZHP is up to it - at least sounds as if it is pretty much. (wonder how much brake fade I'll experience 5 laps x 13 miles! eek...just the thought)..anyway - I'm a pretty aggressive driver normally - not afraid - at all - to drive fast & at the limit - and do know how to (hard) brake & throttle it through a turn...but still - a track newbie...so we'll just see I guess...

[DZeckhausen]

Wow! Sounds like great fun!

I have never tracked a car - but am planning on taking our ZHP to Nurburing when in Germany this summer -if at all possible. I know I'll likely play it conservative at first - but expect to get into the spirit of it all and (eventually) push it hard. Good to hear that the ZHP is up to it - at least sounds as if it is pretty much. You might consider renting a Porsche 996 instead. If you rent it far enough away from the Nurburgring, you may find an agency that doesn't specifically exclude taking it there. The consequences of going off track with a rental car are probably much less severe than taking out your Euro delivery ride!

If you insist on taking your ZHP to the Ring, at least sign up for a 3-day or 5-day driving school at Skip Barber, Bondurant, Panoz or one of the others before you go. You'll appreciate the Ring that much more and you'll improve the odds of keeping the shiny side up!

[GregD]

Wow! Sounds like great fun!

I have never tracked a car - but am planning on taking our ZHP to Nurburing when in Germany this summer -if at all possible. I know I'll likely play it conservative at first - but expect to get into the spirit of it all and (eventually) push it hard. Good to hear that the ZHP is up to it - at least sounds as if it is pretty much. (wonder how much brake fade I'll experience 5 laps x 13 miles! eek...just the thought)..anyway - I'm a pretty aggressive driver normally - not afraid - at all - to drive fast & at the limit - and do know how to (hard) brake & throttle it through a turn...but still - a track newbie...so we'll just see I guess...

The Nurburgring has a few corners which are serious gotchas if you think you know the next corner and drive beyond your vision. Many of the corners look alike, and with so many corners it takes a lot of laps to really learn the track. Don't push it hard anywhere you can't see all the way through the corner if you want to keep your car intact.

The Nurburgring is awesome. Have fun, but be careful. Just my 2 cents. :thumbup:

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

If you plan on driving the nurburgring, you would be abominably stupid not to take a few driver's schools beforehand.

[Roadhawk]

Yes I've heard the stories...and I'll take it as a challange (and of course be conservative about it). I have excellent visual memory and retention - but we'll see how well it does for me by lap 4 or so....

..and no time for driving school...and I won't say no need...because one can always improve and I do understand some of the techniques and what one can get from such...but I have tremendous confidence in my driving ability - I am already quite good - and while I've never tracked - I've road raced and such (not drag raced - but open road course - and even as a rookie did extremely well - winning the first race I entered - and basically every road race I've ever done...) - and I know how to drive fast and how to handle a car (and I have loads of experience driving long distances at very high speeds) - so I really do think I can handle it. I won't be stupid...and I probably won't go as fast as I could - I certainly don't want to wreck - but just have some fun....and I don't know - maybe I'll be a slowpoke out there...but I think not...and I know I will need to absorb track driving rules etc - so I know that there will be certain challenges...

[adc]

but I have tremendous confidence in my driving ability - I am already quite good - and while I've never tracked - I've road raced and such (not drag raced - but open road course - and even as a rookie did extremely well - winning the first race I entered - and basically every road race I've ever done...)

Not sure I understand what the difference is between road-racing and taking your car at the track :dunno: ... Unless by road-racing you mean street-racing - in which case I doubt that your previous experience will allow you to maximize your on-track speed, even after 4 laps.

To each their own, I think I had a similar attitude to yours before ever going to the track - and which subsequently changed to be the exact opposite.

:confused: Hope all goes well with your endeavor,

adc
03 330 ZHP

[GregD]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

As long as you drive conservatively within your limits and vision, the Nurburgring is a fairly safe place to do some fun driving. If either one of these items is exceeded, it will be at a minimum expensive, and at a maximum deadly.

If you can actually learn the 100+ turns of the Nurburgring in just a few laps, my hat's off to you. You'll probably be the first person in the world to do that. If, however, you forget something and you're not driving conservatively enough, it will bite you. Drive smart, please. It would just be sad otherwise.

[jmt_esq]

Who here has actually driven at the 'Ring? I read that, on certain days and times, track time is open to all, for a price. I'm sure there always great drivers out there, moving at pretty high speeds. Does a track novice have a hard time staying out of the way and still moving at a good pace? Is it easy to rent a car to take on the Ring, as opposed to bringing your own? The stories I've read about that course all make it sound like hallowed ground for Bimmers, but also a scary, unforgiving place. I feel like any place that Hans Stuck frequents might be a bit out of my depth.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

The key with the Nurburgring is that unless you're in the 99.99th percentile AND have the track memorized, you're doing one of two things:
A) Staring at your rear view mirror.
B) Putting your car into the wall or the trees.

It doesn't matter how fast or slow your car is. :P

[Chris90]

Is Roadhawk pulling our leg? "I've road raced" :rofl:

Do the August BMW Club Nurburgring school (if it isn't full), otherwise I expect you'll eat a guardrail - there's no runoff on that track, you mess up, you're toast.

Most circuits in Europe are open to the public when not in use, I know Monza was when I was in Milan. And the Ring is a public road, so insurance covers accidents there, including Euro delivery. Not sure about other tracks in Europe though.

Most tracks have runoff room where people tend to go off, but the Ring does not, just a few feet and then guardrail and trees. It's also a very high speed track, which is why you see so many accidents there. People say you see an accident almost every lap while you're there.

[jmt_esq]

Is Roadhawk pulling our leg? "I've road raced" :rofl:

Most tracks have runoff room where people tend to go off, but the Ring does not, just a few feet and then guardrail and trees. It's also a very high speed track, which is why you see so many accidents there. People say you see an accident almost every lap while you're there.

That's kind of what I thought. That, combined with being surrounded by lots of very good, very fast drivers makes me think it might not be a very enjoyable experience unless you are really, really comfortable on a racetrack, I would think the 'Ring might not be worth the stress / risk. Taking the "track taxi" might be a better option: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=1340&page_number=1
High-speed laps in an M5 -- fun, no risk of death.

I think Roadhawk is pulling our leg. Road racing off the track? I've driven very fast on normal highways, but there is no comparison between that and driving on a racetrack. And I am by no means fast.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Quite frankly, any time anyone talks about how confident they are in their driving skills, I get scared. That said, you can only do so much for the clueless. Sometimes they have to work it out for themselves.

[Roadhawk]

OK - I hear all of you - believe me I do...and I understand that I'll be a track newbie - and respect that. All that being said i am an outstanding & experienced (high speed) driver - and have quite a bit more experience with this then the average or I would even say then 99%+ of drivers - and I can handle a car & am familiar with how to take a line through a corner, how the properly brake, and how to brake-throttle & such (but don't claim to be any master of such per se...).

By "road race" I am talking about a (more of less) official (though unsanctioned etc) race series that has a 20+ year history (that I've participated in 4 of - 3 as a driver and once as an organizer) - that covers several hundred miles of mostly country/mountain road driving with teams leaving in timed intervals etc etc - believe me it is all out...not quite track all out I imagine (as there are various muggle drivers to consider, red & blue flashing lights, and potential pedestrians & such - though mostly open road) - but its hard core none the less.

And again - I've never tracked - i understand - but I (think I) know my limits - I don't expect to wreck - and while I may not be the fasted on the track - i'm sure I'll do Ok. In the meantime I'll attempt to absorb what i can (and would love if there were some kind of detailed track layout of Nurburing available)...I've heard that Project Gotham2 has a nice sim...don't know how much that might or might not help.

But anyway - don't discount my ability to (safely) pull this off (I'm not stupid - and if I judge it too dangerous i just wont do it...) - I heard the same things (and worse) from the folks who did this road race - (when I claimed I would win the race before I had ever run one!) - and they said - you have no clue - you don't know how fast you will have to drive and no rookie has ever finished in the top 1/2 and your navigator won't be able to handle things at speed (I had an excellent navigator BTW - without whom I would not have won...). Well we won the first race we did - and the next two after that - each year by incresing margins and we became the team to beat...so yeah - I do know how to drive fast (and corner fast - my navigator got sick & was throwing up each race BTW...just as an aside...)...and I do it all the time...OK track is totally different - I fully understand this...I don't expect to be Mario Andretti per se...but I'm (fairly) sure I can handle it...and no - I won't rememeber 100+ turns...but I'm sure I will remember (some of) those that count...and for all the rest (and those as well) - I'll be very careful and drive as appropriate/within my limits...and thanks everyone for all the input....and feel free to keep beating me up - I can handle it - and I certainly am taking everything everyone is telling me here into consideration...(but no time for lessons per se...so I'll have to make do...) :beerchug: ...and I might decide its not a good idea - I'm not stupid and I'm not going to risk messing my new car up...

[Roadhawk]

Who here has actually driven at the 'Ring? I read that, on certain days and times, track time is open to all, for a price. I'm sure there always great drivers out there, moving at pretty high speeds. Does a track novice have a hard time staying out of the way and still moving at a good pace? Is it easy to rent a car to take on the Ring, as opposed to bringing your own? The stories I've read about that course all make it sound like hallowed ground for Bimmers, but also a scary, unforgiving place. I feel like any place that Hans Stuck frequents might be a bit out of my depth.

I'm very interested in any replies to these questions as well....

And as an aside I know some instructors (one guy who instructs at summit point) and another who does autocross instruction (and races) at various places in the area...and I've been complimented on my driving techniques by these guys...so I supose that counts for something eh?

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I'm very interested in any replies to these questions as well....

And as an aside I know some instructors (one guy who instructs at summit point) and another who does autocross instruction (and races) at various places in the area...and I've been complimented on my driving techniques by these guys...so I supose that counts for something eh?
Quite frankly, not really. Your level of confidence in your abilitiues is downright frightening. Last weekend, I passed EVERY SINGLE car in my run group and lapped many, if not most of them. In spite of that, I am fully aware of the fact that I am NOT particularly skilled and have a VERY long way to go. Even though my instructor encouraged me to start doing FATTs as he felt I'd be an instructor very quickly.

[DZeckhausen]

Most tracks have runoff room where people tend to go off, but the Ring does not, just a few feet and then guardrail and trees. It's also a very high speed track, which is why you see so many accidents there. People say you see an accident almost every lap while you're there.It's the accidents you DON'T see that are really bad. It's not uncommon for a car to vanish over the guardrails and into the trees. People who have driven on the track alone have gone missing for days until their car (and their bodies) were noticed by hikers or by course workers inspecting or repairing damaged guardrails.

[Andy]

This thread is cracking me up!! :rofl: :rofl:


"Roadhawk" is about to become "Roadkill"!! You might want to turn it down a few notches!! :tsk:


One question... how old are you?

[jafo]

Roadhawk I want you to know I would do the same thing you are doing. If I had the opportunity to drive the ring I would. I think most people on this forum would do it as well. Be careful and have some fun. :thumbup:

We want pictures!

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Roadhawk I want you to know I would do the same thing you are doing. If I had the opportunity to drive the ring I would. I think most people on this forum would do it as well. Be careful and have some fun. :thumbup:

We want pictures!
The issue here is that roadhawk likes to pretend he's an experienced and skilled driver. None of us have any issue with him driving on the 'ring. The only issue is that he's got the idea in his head that he is well prepared for it, in spite of the fact that he has never attended any driver education events and refuses to even admit that just perhaps, maybe, he needs instruction.

[BradS]

This thread is cracking me up!! :rofl: :rofl:

I agree, except I can't decide what's funnier: the second coming of Michael Schumacher on one hand or the nanny-tude crowd on the other.

On one hand, dude, you pay your euros, have at it. And if you set the track record in your new 330i, good on you. And if you end up on your roof against the guardrail, hanging from your lap belt with your luggage and souvenirs from the BMW factory scattered along the grass, well, big boy rules.

On the other hand, I think we get quite enough nagging from the federal & local government about the terrible perils of driving, let's can the "EEEEK! You shouldn't even MENTION the word Nurburgring, much less drive it, unless you are a 87-time honor graduate of Skip Barber and a regional SCCA champion!"

The truly great thing about the Ring is anyone can show up, pay their money, and take their chances. You paid for your car, drive however you want to as long as you don't hurt anyone else.

Cheers!

[jmt_esq]

Don't get me wrong -- Roadhawk, I really do wish you the best. If your experience in a videogame prepares for driving the Nurburgring, then I really will be anxious to hear how it turns out. I would be hugely surprised if it did, but I wouldn't wish harm on anyone. Just be careful: the stuff you read about that track suggests that many drivers, even very good ones, even very good ones who have driven it many times before, can get hurt (at best). So... shiny side up.

And, as a cautionary tale -- these pics are what a high speed crash of a German car in a forest looks like.

[Roadhawk]

Roadhawk I want you to know I would do the same thing you are doing. If I had the opportunity to drive the ring I would. I think most people on this forum would do it as well. Be careful and have some fun. :thumbup:

We want pictures!

I doubt I'll be snappng any when I'm out on the track....but perhaps my wife can be coaxed into it...she certainly won't be in the car with me! (she's rather allergic to G-forces..)...and thanks for the encouragement! I'll try not to disapoint...

And I'm 43 BTW...been driving since I was 14-15 - my father was (among other things) a driving instructor who drilled me like you wouldn't believe. And I've never claimed to know all there is about driving or even close - but I do know my abilities and I am confident for a reason. I seriously doubt I will wreck as i won't push it beyond the circumstances and I do drive with caution and awareness...I admit there is an unkown factor - very much so - so i will be cautious...and if I do it - i know that I'll be very nervous...I can't imagine not being such...but I know I'll have fun...speed doesn't scare me (mine or others), nor does proximity and I'm very surefooted placing my car...I'll just have to feel the place out and talk to folks (hopfully in English...) and I will attempt to listen well (here & there...)...and I do hear the doubts...noted...

[Roadhawk]

Don't get me wrong -- Roadhawk, I really do wish you the best. If your experience in a videogame prepares for driving the Nurburgring, then I really will be anxious to hear how it turns out. I would be hugely surprised if it did, but I wouldn't wish harm on anyone. Just be careful: the stuff you read about that track suggests that many drivers, even very good ones, even very good ones who have driven it many times before, can get hurt (at best). So... shiny side up.

And, as a cautionary tale -- these pics are what a high speed crash of a German car in a forest looks like.

Thanks...OK...and no I'm not at all counting on videogame experience...just was thinking I could bone up a bit on the track itself and looking for any way I might find something on such. And I know the track's rep....and yeah - there is certainly some intimidation in that - and in my lack of experience..but I know that I am a very good driver..enough - I hope - to keep me out of trouble..if I keep my smarts about me...and thanks for the encouragement (and such...) :thumbup:

[Roadhawk]

The truly great thing about the Ring is anyone can show up, pay their money, and take their chances. You paid for your car, drive however you want to as long as you don't hurt anyone else.

Cheers!

Thats the spirit!

And while I understand all the cautionary notes (at least I think I have an appreciation) - I'm not going to apologize for my claims about my driving ability (though I understand both the sceptiscim as well as the true words of caution and such)...and I think I understand my limits...just the same...no worries...

[Roadhawk]

The issue here is that roadhawk likes to pretend he's an experienced and skilled driver. None of us have any issue with him driving on the 'ring. The only issue is that he's got the idea in his head that he is well prepared for it, in spite of the fact that he has never attended any driver education events and refuses to even admit that just perhaps, maybe, he needs instruction.

Maybe I do...and if I determine that - through warnings by others and my take of the situation...well I'll certainly back off - I have no shame in that. Am I well prepared? I can accept that I am going into the unknown a bit. But I also know what I can (and can't) do with a car...and I honestly feel Ok about it. I am a very experienced and very skilled driver - I know that...just because I do - from my extensive experience (driving very very hard under a variety of circumstances) - over many many years - and knowing how I can drive and believe me I blow people away who ride with me...I have very often been told by passangers who drive performance cars of their own - that they don't understand how I can do what I do with my cars...so I am telling you (while understanding [and acknowledging the validity of] why it is you disbelieve & protest and warn as you do) - that I am an exceptionally good driver - good enough - IMHO - to do this - even if I do it without pushing so much (hey - i don't want to wreck - believe me!) ...but I will reamain open to being convinced that I'm nuts/way off the mark...OK (fair?)

[GregD]

Who here has actually driven at the 'Ring? I read that, on certain days and times, track time is open to all, for a price. I'm sure there always great drivers out there, moving at pretty high speeds. Does a track novice have a hard time staying out of the way and still moving at a good pace? Is it easy to rent a car to take on the Ring, as opposed to bringing your own? The stories I've read about that course all make it sound like hallowed ground for Bimmers, but also a scary, unforgiving place. I feel like any place that Hans Stuck frequents might be a bit out of my depth.

I've driven there twice with new BMWs that I picked up on Euro delivery, once in 94 and again in 98. Maybe I happened to go there when it wasn't too crowded, but there was relatively little traffic. :dunno: On a typical lap, I would pass maybe 1 or 2 cars and maybe 1 or 2 cars would pass me.

I basically drove it the same way I would drive a curvy mountain road I had never been on with the plus that I didn't have to worry about traffic coming the other way. This means that I left lots of room for error - no drifting out to the edges of the road, going slow when I can't tell where the road is going, and quickly moving out of the way for anyone coming up behind me.

As long as you keep on eye on your mirrors, I think it's quite safe to drive the Nurburgring even at a relatively slow speed. Just drive with caution like you're on a regular street, except without speed limits. Don't drive like you're on a track, unless you have extensive experience on the Nurburgring, and you should be ok.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Maybe I do...and if I determine that - through warnings by others and my take of the situation...well I'll certainly back off - I have no shame in that. Am I well prepared? I can accept that I am going into the unknown a bit. But I also know what I can (and can't) do with a car...and I honestly feel Ok about it. I am a very experienced and very skilled driver - I know that...just because I do - from my extensive experience (driving very very hard under a variety of circumstances) - over many many years - and knowing how I can drive and believe me I blow people away who ride with me...I have very often been told by passangers who drive performance cars of their own - that they don't understand how I can do what I do with my cars...so I am telling you (while understanding [and acknowledging the validity of] why it is you disbelieve & protest and warn as you do) - that I am an exceptionally good driver - good enough - IMHO - to do this - even if I do it without pushing so much (hey - i don't want to wreck - believe me!) ...but I will reamain open to being convinced that I'm nuts/way off the mark...OK (fair?)
My observation, as someone who’s had very similar reactions from many friends (including a particular incident where I powerslid around a traffic circle when I was really, really, really stupid), is that that sort of thing tends to give you a bit of a God complex. What I’d really recommend is that you see if you can find an instructor, or even someone who knows the track reasonably well to ride with you. It REALLY adds to the experience. Be safe and enjoy yourself, just remember to watch and don’t let the red mist get you.

[Roadhawk]

Greg - sounds good - I hope to encounter a similar situation (much rather drive it in lighter traffic & at my own pace - without the need to feel pushed...) - I'm going there for a fun drive - to do it - to be able to say "I've done it!" etc - not to race...and your attitude/approach about doing the "ring" is exactly mine...sounds like it was a great experience - and thats what I'm hoping for...

And Nick - I do hope I might be able to get an instructor (or someone familiar...perferebly who speaks English of course...) to ride with me a lap or two - if at all possible.

I'm confident in my driving - but dont have a god complex. I'm old enough for a bit of wisdom here...and I have a family...including 2 young boys...so I know whats at risk...its more then just getting a car banged up.

[Chris90]

Don't knock the video games - Project Gotham 2 is one of the two games in existence that has the full North Course in it. (the other is Grand Prix Legends)

I tried it, but in my opinion it's way too easy to drive, so it might be as damaging as instructive. It will certainly teach you the turns, which would be very valuable, but it won't give you any idea of the difficulty of the turns, or the speed you should enter them, cause in the game, in anything less than a Ferrari Enzo, it's a joke to drive - the physics is kind of phony.

But if you keep that in mind, I'd play the game cause it's the only way to learn anything about the course without being there.

[adc]

Please don't knock them, they are tremendous driving tools, they really are.

Well my wife made me take my PS2/GT3 back to the store because I was constantly setting lap records and embarassing the poor computer. :rofl:

Then I went on a track... the rest is history.

Really wish all the best to all the future Ring drivers!

adc (aka Andretti in DC)
03 330 ZHP

[jmt_esq]

I didn't mean to knock the video games. I agree that they might be useful in learning the basic layout of a track, where the turns are, etc... especially given the level of realism in some of the better ones. I only meant to point out that I don't think playing a videogame is a good substitute for real-world driving with an instructor when going to an unfamiliar track. No matter how good the game, you never experience the "Oh, Sh!#!" factor that you would from overcooking a turn on a real track in your very own $40,000 hunk of metal. That's all. I freely acknowledget that a good, realistic game might be helpful as a pre-instructor introduction to a track.

[Chris90]

No matter how good the game, you never experience the "Oh, Sh!#!" factor that you would from overcooking a turn on a real track in your very own $40,000 hunk of metal.

Yeah, and my XBox didn't put tire wall marks and a dent on my front fender either.

[slilley]

Hey, I'm a little behind, but I saw someone recommend the Performance Friction 97s for DE events. I used them for one two-day DE back in 2002, and they were great. HOWEVER, the stuff they left behind on the wheels nearly ruined them! I swap pads the day before I leave (always give the wheels a quick wax -- even on the inside -- which usually makes them a snap to clean afterwards), and put the OEM pads the day I get back, but the PF-97s left behind a layer of brake-dust-crud that was virtually impossible to remove on the face of the wheels (the part you see), and *impossible* to remove from the inside of the wheel. I sold the PF-97s, and went back to Porterfield R-4 pads for the track. I know I'm not alone with this experience...but it's been over a year since I've been to the track now, so maybe they changed the PF-97s since then.

Regards,
Steve
2004 330i ZHP w/ no track time yet :cry: