How important are winter tires in the winter?

[tpetty]

I enjoy my "new" 540i, but am wondering about winter. I live in central IL - not tons of snow, but it we will get several big snow storms each winter. Are the sport tires really that worthless in the winter? I essentially only use the car for commuting, 3 miles each way.

If most people think that winter tires are "mandatory" in a climate that gets snow, what do you think is the best (most economical) way to go -- are there certain used wheels I should be looking for to mount some new winter tires, and what are the best places to find them? Thanks.

[marinakorp]

I live in Philly


we get a FEW snow stors a year... for at least a few inches

I will not drive the car without snowtires in the snow!

I found a decent set of used rims (16") and mounted a set of snow tires on them... you can usually find some deals for 700 or so for a whole set... mounted, etc

for snow... you want taller thinner tires to cut through the stuff to get down to the pavement

I drove for one season with out them... I do not recommend it on summer tires (or even the multi season tires... because they do nothing extraordinary... just everything so so)
The first few time on NEW tires were... OK.. but as the tires wore a few k miles, the next snowstorm... would not go anywhere out of the driveway

Loaded the car with snowies... I can go most places.. even un plowed surfaces

You DO sacrifice some performance with the snow tires mounted... but the safety factor took over the GOTTA drive 125 MPH factor rear quick...handling is NOT as good as the 17" summer tires... but I would expect that


.02

[Salvator]

are there certain used wheels I should be looking for to mount some new winter tires, and what are the best places to find them? Thanks.
You can get Winter Tire Packages from www.tirerack.com (http://www.tirerack.com) as well as other places... They can provide you with a steel or relatively low-buck alloy wheel with snow tire, delivered to your door, so you just have to jack up your car and install them when the snow starts to fly...

[glankford]

My last car was a 1993 camry station wagon. I had a set of worn blizzaks on it for the winter and one warm day I decided that it wouldn't snow any more. I changed back to my summer tires. So of course, it snowed the next week. I went through 2 intersections and just about got in 2 wrecks in a 2 mile drive to work on straight roads.

All I have to say is once you have driven on good snow tires, there is no going back.

Also, it is much cheaper to get a set of snows than to buy a new hood, headlights, bumper, grille, radiator, etc. Catch my drift? (pun not intended)

I live in north central indiana, and for me, it is worth every cent.

-Garrick

[tms0425]

Absolutely true. I live in Ft. Wayne, IN and wouldn't go without them. I have blizzaks and have had them on several cars - fwd,rwd, and awd. They are very good. Be sure not to split front and rear like in the old days. You MUST have all 4.

I had an E34 M5 when I moved here and it was easier to drive with Pirelli W210's than my Yukon with stock all-seasons and 4wd. Without them, on anything slick, from a standstill it would just rotate the car around it's rear axis.

[Tahoe]

I drive my 540/6 all winter here in Tahoe where we often get lots of snow. I wouldn't even consider driving on summer tires or all season tires in the winter here. I bought a set of 16" Borbet wheels and Blizzak tires from Tirerack and had no problems getting around at all. Besides, I can have GOOD summer tires and preserve my good 18" wheels this way.

[joea9146]

Got Snow No Go... sport tires are really bad in the snow... they also tend to loose there grip from the cold also... so snow is not the only concern.

[TheMatrixz]

I agree, the high perf. tires are absolutely useless in snow, even in dusting condition. If you don't want snow tires, at least get M+S tires, but why bother with that if you're going to spend the same $$$ anyways.

[Malachi]

After going through an intersection without being able to stop, I decided to get snow tires.

I could not afford to have accidents or not have a car when it snowed.

They make all the diiference in the world.

[shabbaman]

After going through an intersection without being able to stop, I decided to get snow tires.

I could not afford to have accidents or not have a car when it snowed.

They make all the diiference in the world.

Snow tires really make one difference to me...Whether or not I will drive in the snow :)

[CSBM5]

Are the sport tires really that worthless in the winter? I essentially only use the car for commuting, 3 miles each way.


Yes, they are really worthless. It will just take one experience to convince you for good :) . There is a property of the rubber compond in the tire called the glass transition temperature, Tglass, and as you approach this temperature, the rubber becomes very hard such that it is glass-like -- hence the name. It is similar to a phase transition. This is the issue with summer performance tires...in order to obtain very high levels of performance on dry pavement and withstand high temperatures (especially local hot (very) spots on the contact patch), a high hysteresis compound with a relatively high Tglass is required compared to a snow tire or even an all-season tire.

I'll never forget a slow, 3-4 mph, full ABS, foot buried movement of one of my cars on PZeors on icy snow. There was a very slight downhill grade and the car simply wouldn't stop. It was sort of like a dream...a bad dream. Luckily, a snow bank off the side of the road was soft enough to absorb the impact with no damage.

[johnf]

... There is a property of the rubber compond in the tire called the glass transition temperature, Tglass, and as you approach this temperature, the rubber becomes very hard such that it is glass-like....

A transition temperature I keep seeing quoted is 7°C (45°F) with the claim that below that temperature snow tires give better traction even on bare pavement.

What are some typical Tglass temperatures?

[CSBM5]

What are some typical Tglass temperatures?

The tire companies will not release any of this data, so it will be up to an independent lab to test the compounding of a tire to reveal it. I haven't seen data like this for modern performance tires on the web anywhere.

Re dry road stick at low temps: tire traction is about the farthest thing from just pure Coulomb friction there is, so a blanket statement about snow tires compared to summer tires like that is not as easy as it sounds. Tires generate grip through three processes: mechanical keying (i.e. asperity deformation), adhesion/peeling, and ablation (wear). On dry, typical pavement, a high perf summer tire will still easily outstick a snow tire even at temps well below freezing. However, if you change to snow or ice, the mechanism of traction now changes significantly (i.e. mechanical keying all but disappears), and you depend on the ability of the rubber to adhere/peel to a totally different medium.

[fixdaserver]

see your tire tracks. Gotta love FLorida in winter!

[sph17]

see your tire tracks. Gotta love FLorida in winter!...while on vacation.

I am one of the crazy people who loves driving in the snow, and I would get tired of warm, warmer and hot all year long. My in-laws and my wife's brother are certified Floridians, who are cold when the temp goes below 70F, so to each their own.

Having lived in WV eight years, I enjoy the challanges of winter driving!

[johnf]

Re dry road stick at low temps: tire traction is about the farthest thing from just pure Coulomb friction there is, so a blanket statement about snow tires compared to summer tires like that is not as easy as it sounds. Tires generate grip through three processes: mechanical keying (i.e. asperity deformation), adhesion/peeling, and ablation (wear). On dry, typical pavement, a high perf summer tire will still easily outstick a snow tire even at temps well below freezing.
I am not sure the snow tire agitprop I have read claims they are better on dry pavement below 7°C. The German tire makers definitely suggest snow tires have shorter stopping distances on some snow-free roads (wet roads, perhaps?) below some temperature between 7°C and freezing. The next time I am at the IAA, I will try to corner one of their engineers and ask some pointed questions. :)

[johnf]

I am one of the crazy people who loves driving in the snow....

Having lived in WV eight years, I enjoy the challanges of winter driving!
Not on summer tires, I hope! :)

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Below freezing, high performance winter tires certainly have better traction in the dry than focussed summer tires. On the other hand seriously focussed, Q rated snows probably won't.

[sph17]

Not on summer tires, I hope! :)Metzlers then Vredestiens now Blizzacks. I alwaye put four snows on my past FWD cars, but I have only put snows on the back with all-season tires in front with my RWD. If I get a car with high performance tires (i.e. M5) I will put snows all around.

[swchang]

Metzlers then Vredestiens now Blizzacks. I alwaye put four snows on my past FWD cars, but I have only put snows on the back with all-season tires in front with my RWD. If I get a car with high performance tires (i.e. M5) I will put snows all around.

Can you explain the reasoning behind these decisions? I'm very curious as to why you'd do that.

[sph17]

Can you explain the reasoning behind these decisions? I'm very curious as to why you'd do that.... but I have been driving my RWD cars for 32 years with only snows on the rear. In WV I was putting 40K a year on my vehicles and I used Goodyear F-32s on the back of my work car and on my first MB without winter problems. If the snow was too deep or the road too slick, I would put on chains.

In WV I noticed that FWD vehicles with only snow tires on the front drive wheels, were having lots of accidents. Most of the time the accident would be in a curve, and the driver would report that the rear end slid out in the curve, causing them to slide off the road sideways. That is why I put snows on all four wheels of my FWD cars.

Now living back on LI, we have snow usually less than 10 days a year. Snows on the back, with an occasional use of chains in deep snow has served me well.

If I get a car without all-season tires, a car with high performance tires like an M5, I would put snows on all four wheels for a number of the reasons mentioned by previous posters. First the staggered set up of the M5, with wide tires, is not the best for snow conditions. Taller, less wide snow tires on narower wheels would do much better as a snow set up, front and rear. Narrower tires in back would fit chains better than the wide stock M5 rear tire. High performance tires, as mentioned above, do not do well in the snow or stopping on cold, slippery pavements.

The bottom line is that my wife and I have a lot of experience (32 years each) driving in bad winter, snow, blizzards, up and down hills/moutains and bad icy slipery conditions. We have adjusted our driving caracteristics to the conditions of the road, and we have done well over the years. Often in bad snow conditions I am passed by a AWD or 4x4 vehicle and up the road I see the vehicle off the road, having lost control because they were driving too fast. Mabe we have been tempting fait and we should switch to using snows on all for wheels on our cars.

Our son will be starting to drive next year. I will make sure the vehicle he drives have snows on all four wheels. I would like to get an AWD E61 (525xiT) when they are available or I might get a CPO X5, and putting snow tires on all for wheels would be a moot point. If I end up getting a CPO E39 wagon, I probably will put snows all around.

[HW]

if you must drive then get them. if you don't and can take public transpo, then do that. i had been doing that for the past while and it was fine w/ me since i didn't endanger my car from the idiots out there that can't drive worth sh!t in snow. but this and last year, i'm at a place where public transpo is tough so i will need to get some.

[swchang]

... but I have been driving my RWD cars for 32 years with only snows on the rear. In WV I was putting 40K a year on my vehicles and I used Goodyear F-32s on the back of my work car and on my first MB without winter problems. If the snow was too deep or the road too slick, I would put on chains.

In WV I noticed that FWD vehicles with only snow tires on the front drive wheels, were having lots of accidents. Most of the time the accident would be in a curve, and the driver would report that the rear end slid out in the curve, causing them to slide off the road sideways. That is why I put snows on all four wheels of my FWD cars.

Now living back on LI, we have snow usually less than 10 days a year. Snows on the back, with an occasional use of chains in deep snow has served me well.

If I get a car without all-season tires, a car with high performance tires like an M5, I would put snows on all four wheels for a number of the reasons mentioned by previous posters. First the staggered set up of the M5, with wide tires, is not the best for snow conditions. Taller, less wide snow tires on narower wheels would do much better as a snow set up, front and rear. Narrower tires in back would fit chains better than the wide stock M5 rear tire. High performance tires, as mentioned above, do not do well in the snow or stopping on cold, slippery pavements.

The bottom line is that my wife and I have a lot of experience (32 years each) driving in bad winter, snow, blizzards, up and down hills/moutains and bad icy slipery conditions. We have adjusted our driving caracteristics to the conditions of the road, and we have done well over the years. Often in bad snow conditions I am passed by a AWD or 4x4 vehicle and up the road I see the vehicle off the road, having lost control because they were driving too fast. Mabe we have been tempting fait and we should switch to using snows on all for wheels on our cars.

Our son will be starting to drive next year. I will make sure the vehicle he drives have snows on all four wheels. I would like to get an AWD E61 (525xiT) when they are available or I might get a CPO X5, and putting snow tires on all for wheels would be a moot point. If I end up getting a CPO E39 wagon, I probably will put snows all around.

Ah, okay. Good to know.

So you don't think an X5 would need snow tires? And what do you mean by narrower wheels?

[sph17]

if you must drive then get them. if you don't and can take public transpo, then do that. i had been doing that for the past while and it was fine w/ me since i didn't endanger my car from the idiots out there that can't drive worth sh!t in snow. but this and last year, i'm at a place where public transpo is tough so i will need to get some. Here on LI public transportation is not an option unless you are going into NYC. The trains funnel everyone into the city, and don't connect the cities well. Getting around on LI requires a car.

We had two blizzards last winter and the other drivers on the road were my biggest worry. When every one else got home, and I had the roads to myself, driving was much more pleasurable, even if there was more than 12 inches of snow on the ground.

[sph17]

Ah, okay. Good to know.

So you don't think an X5 would need snow tires? And what do you mean by narrower wheels?I believe the X5 I test drove had M&S tires. I know the Range Rover we had previously had M&S.

As for "narrower wheels" I would follow whatever Dave Z http://www.zeckhausen.com/ or Luke the Tire God at TireRack (Luke@tirerack) would reccomend for the model in question for winter wheels/tires.

[swchang]

I believe the X5 I test drove had M&S tires. I know the Range Rover we had previously had M&S.

As for "narrower wheels" I would follow whatever Dave Z http://www.zeckhausen.com/ or Luke the Tire God at TireRack (Luke@tirerack) would reccomend for the model in question for winter wheels/tires.

I thought M&S tires were simply all-seasons? Or are they a special type of all-season? I dunno, I always thought summers and winters should be put on SUVs as well, but then I couldn't find any large enough on Tire Rack... :dunno:

[HW]

I thought M&S tires were simply all-seasons? Or are they a special type of all-season? I dunno, I always thought summers and winters should be put on SUVs as well, but then I couldn't find any large enough on Tire Rack... :dunno:
winter tires have different tread patterns and different rubber compounds. winter tires will not last as long as all-seasons and will be most likely be noisier than all seasons. narrower winters are prefered because the contact patch is smaller and so there's a higher psi on the snow or ice.

[sph17]

I thought M&S tires were simply all-seasons? Or are they a special type of all-season? I dunno, I always thought summers and winters should be put on SUVs as well, but then I couldn't find any large enough on Tire Rack... :dunno:Snow tires made for cars may not go large enough for an SUV. Tires made specificly for an SUV or truck start out big and get bigger. I just checked TireRack for a LandRover and there are many choices in Snow tires, all season and summer treads. Do a search for tires for the vehicle you are interested in.

[hector]

i'm debating whether to get a cheap fwd car to drive in winter or to put winter tires on my 330ci. will i do just as well in the snow with the rwd car? also, how would the rwd car with snows compare to the fwd car with all-season tires and to the fwd car with snows?

[sph17]

i'm debating whether to get a cheap fwd car to drive in winter or to put winter tires on my 330ci. will i do just as well in the snow with the rwd car? also, how would the rwd car with snows compare to the fwd car with all-season tires and to the fwd car with snows?FWD vehicles when they first became popular were sold as great in snow/slippery conditions as the engine weight was over the drive wheels. I never had much luck with FWD Audi 5000 or a Honda Acord in deep snow as they have less ground clearance because of the front transfer case.

In addition, I often found that going up hills, when the weight of the car shifts back onto the rear tires, FWD cars don't do well. I have actually had to turn around and back up steep hills with my previous FWD cars for traction. With FWD vehicles, you have to put four snow tires on a FWD or you risk having your rear end slide out on curves and loosing control.

I have had better luck with a RWD MB (W123, W201, W202) or BMW (E39) with good snow tires (Blizzaks) and a set of chains/cables for realy bad snow storms/ice. Putting cables on FWD vehicle is an iffy proposition. I know it can be done, and my brother did it with his Volvo, but I am not that comfortable putting them on a FWD.

Get a cheap vehicle for the winter if you don't want to risk your 330ci in bad weather.

[FireFly]

An Xi (AWD) owner chiming in here...

I have driven 2 winters with my All Season tires on the Xi and we get a lot of snow here in NH. I'll say that for normal winter driving, any BMW with AS tires will do pretty darn good. AWD with AS tires is a great match for most things- still not great at climbing steep slopes covered in snow but they work.

Now throw snows into the mix and you'll have a few advantages over cars without them. 2 enormous advantages will be stopping power and the ability to steer.

I have turned the corner on this issue- I thought AWD would make the biggest difference but now I am convinced a good set of snows will be a better set up in the winter.

So this winter I'll have my AWD and dedicated snows on it- I'd rather over-compensate than put my life (and others) in danger.

If you throw snows on your RWD then you'll do just fine.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

An Xi (AWD) owner chiming in here...

I have driven 2 winters with my All Season tires on the Xi and we get a lot of snow here in NH. I'll say that for normal winter driving, any BMW with AS tires will do pretty darn good. AWD with AS tires is a great match for most things- still not great at climbing steep slopes covered in snow but they work.

Now throw snows into the mix and you'll have a few advantages over cars without them. 2 enormous advantages will be stopping power and the ability to steer.

I have turned the corner on this issue- I thought AWD would make the biggest difference but now I am convinced a good set of snows will be a better set up in the winter.

So this winter I'll have my AWD and dedicated snows on it- I'd rather over-compensate than put my life (and others) in danger.

If you throw snows on your RWD then you'll do just fine.
Wow.

When did you change your mind?

[hector]

FWD vehicles when they first became popular were sold as great in snow/slippery conditions as the engine weight was over the drive wheels. I never had much luck with FWD Audi 5000 or a Honda Acord in deep snow as they have less ground clearance because of the front transfer case.

In addition, I often found that going up hills, when the weight of the car shifts back onto the rear tires, FWD cars don't do well. I have actually had to turn around and back up steep hills with my previous FWD cars for traction. With FWD vehicles, you have to put four snow tires on a FWD or you risk having your rear end slide out on curves and loosing control.

I have had better luck with a RWD MB (W123, W201, W202) or BMW (E39) with good snow tires (Blizzaks) and a set of chains/cables for realy bad snow storms/ice. Putting cables on FWD vehicle is an iffy proposition. I know it can be done, and my brother did it with his Volvo, but I am not that comfortable putting them on a FWD.

Get a cheap vehicle for the winter if you don't want to risk your 330ci in bad weather.


thanks for the input, your point about hills is very relevant to my situation as i live on a hill and have a very steep driveway as well, i think i'm gonna put the winter tires on and see what happens.

[swchang]

Wow.

When did you change your mind?

Ditto. I remember the days (only a few months ago) when you (FireFly) were one of the strongest proponents of AWD or bust. rumratt's going to be blown away. :yikes:

[FireFly]

Wow.

When did you change your mind?

After 2 winters I have gotten to know my BMW a lot better. And of course listening to all of you has given me a good education on the subject :)

A RWD with snows will not be perfect but IMHO it will be better than a AWD with AS tires in most circumstances.

And rember- my situation is anything but normal with the killer driveway I have - so unfortunately I need AWD and snows- which is definitely over-kill on anything but my driveway.

[FireFly]

Ditto. I remember the days (only a few months ago) when you (FireFly) were one of the strongest proponents of AWD or bust. rumratt's going to be blown away. :yikes:

I have seen the light :D