Lagacy GT vs 325i vs S60

[Dave 330i]

OK, Subaru sponsored the event. I could smell it as soon as I got there. The biggest and the coolest air conditioned tent had bunch of Subaru in it. A cup of Starbuck coffee got me wired to go. The sky looked like another hot humid day in Houston but there were plenty of water and coke to replenish the liquid lost in my body. Road & Track and Car and Driver executed event, which will be held in 10 cities across the USA. I got my Saturday 8:00 am appointment at Reliant Park through the Internet, http://www.rideanddrive.net/

Three tracks were set up; performance, handling, and traction courses. Lagacy 2.5 GT, 325i, and S60 sedans were used for the performance and handling courses. Station wagons of the same BMW and Subaru models and a Volvo V70 were used for the traction course. The specs for each car are shown in the pictures. All cars had automatic transmissions.

After a brief training on how to negotiate through a corner by a knowledgeable instructor, three groups of 9 drivers plus an instructor were ushered to each of the three courses (27 people were in the 8 am session). The turns on the courses were tight, but each course had its unique features. The performance had a straight where you could reach about 50mph with 4 people in the car. That’s right, each car was loaded with 3 drivers who rotated driving the course, and the instructor. The handling course had sharp increasing and decreasing curves, while the traction course had a two turn slalom plus a sanded section. Subaru insisted on showing their viscous 4X drivetrain, which distributes the power from 55/45 up to 50/50.

How exciting can it get when you have 4 people in the car while you are negotiating around the cones? Not very. OK, my impression as all of you are waiting for. Going into the test I had to be unbiased even though I owned a 330i. I wondered why the test favored the Subaru Turbo GT? I questioned why325i did not have the SP package. Extra $$ was the answer. Because the BMW had standard tires the car rode on the sidewall of the all-season tires mounted to 16” wheel during hard turns with 4 people onboard. I could smell the burnt tires after the drive. The GT had lower profile tires on 17” wheels, and they were planted at all time without complaints.

My impression. The BMW is balanced but it lacked the power (184 hp) of the Subaru (250 hp) and the 4X drive to win my vote. The S60 and the V70 Volvo continue to be designed for the mature family type male. It was not in the same league as the BMW and the Subaru. It was the heaviest car, and had a lot of understeer with its front wheel drive. The 4X drive in the Subaru planted the car on the asphalt all the time. It was my first experience with a 4X car, and it took a little time to used to it. Even though the Subaru is the winner in my and most other drivers’ book, I don’t like TC cars for my daily drive. The turbo doesn’t kick in until around 2700 rpm. I think for a unbiased buyer who is looking at the 325i, the Subaru looks like a good buy, just like the G35 as compared to the 330i.

[Dave 330i]

The cars and the courses

[Dave 330i]

Lagacy 2.5 liter turbo GT

[PhilH]

I don't turbos either, because of their non linear power delivery. I haven't driven a new Legacy yet, but I bet I'd choose the 325 over it for sure.

When I heard about this event a while ago, I had no idea it was sponsored by Subaru, although now that I think about it, it seems obvious. Did you hear of the sponsorship before you arrived at the event?

[Ci2Eye]

I went to the same event in Atlanta. Your pictures look pretty much identical to what I saw here. I am sure they use all the same tents and charts from city to city.

I also wondered and asked why the BMW didn't have the sport package and was told they were trying to keep the cars priced the same but I believe even with the SP the BMW would have been cheaper than the Volvo so I don't really buy that.

I thought the event was clearly biased towards the Subaru which is understandable if they were paying the bill but they tried to conceal that fact until the end and used the guise that Car and Driver and Road and Track wanted to know "what you think". That totally turned me off and perhaps made me more critical of the Subaru. Some of our test drivers kept making negative comments about the BMW and especially the Volvo as we drove through the courses but when we were in the Subaru they were extolling it's virtues. :tsk:

As for my thoughts on the cars, the BMW was the least powerful with the 2.5 litre but it's power was linear. It felt smooth and evenly delivered from throttle tip-in to the point you had to lift for the corner. The Subaru felt dog-slow off the line but then suddenly the power came on very dramatically. It was actually startling at first. The Volvo was somewhere in the middle. Some turbo rush but not such an off/on feel. And with the handling, I thought neither of them could beat the perfect balance of the Bimmer. Even with AWD, the Subbie was still nose heavy and not as poised around the track. The Volvo was just simply softer sprung and more biased towards comfort. It plowed through the corners like it was out of its element. So, in the end I put the Subaru in last place when it came time to fill out the rating sheet. It had neither the comfort of the Volvo or the balance and linear power of the BMW.

As I said, perhaps I was biased towards the BMW to begin with and all the thinly veiled "commentary" from the expert drivers only made me more critical of the Subaru but I thought it was out of its league.

[Dave 330i]

I went to the same event in Atlanta. Your pictures look pretty much identical to what I saw here. I am sure they use all the same tents and charts from city to city.

I also wondered and asked why the BMW didn't have the sport package and was told they were trying to keep the cars priced the same but I believe even with the SP the BMW would have been cheaper than the Volvo so I don't really buy that.

I thought the event was clearly biased towards the Subaru which is understandable if they were paying the bill but they tried to conceal that fact until the end and used the guise that Car and Driver and Road and Track wanted to know "what you think". That totally turned me off and perhaps made me more critical of the Subaru. Some of our test drivers kept making negative comments about the BMW and especially the Volvo as we drove through the courses but when we were in the Subaru they were extolling it's virtues. :tsk:

As for my thoughts on the cars, the BMW was the least powerful with the 2.5 litre but it's power was linear. It felt smooth and evenly delivered from throttle tip-in to the point you had to lift for the corner. The Subaru felt dog-slow off the line but then suddenly the power came on very dramatically. It was actually startling at first. The Volvo was somewhere in the middle. Some turbo rush but not such an off/on feel. And with the handling, I thought neither of them could beat the perfect balance of the Bimmer. Even with AWD, the Subbie was still nose heavy and not as poised around the track. The Volvo was just simply softer sprung and more biased towards comfort. It plowed through the corners like it was out of its element. So, in the end I put the Subaru in last place when it came time to fill out the rating sheet. It had neither the comfort of the Volvo or the balance and linear power of the BMW.

As I said, perhaps I was biased towards the BMW to begin with and all the thinly veiled "commentary" from the expert drivers only made me more critical of the Subaru but I thought it was out of its league.

The head instructor made no bones about it, the BMW was the target car at this event, duh. He also said that the SP was not included because of cost. On the side he said at a performance event that was held in NC or SC, the standard issue was the 330i.

[Ci2Eye]

I went to the event with my brother and we both felt like they should have said Subaru was inviting us to compare the new Legacy GT to BMW and Volvo from the beginning. Instead, the invite said something like "you've been hearing what we think about cars for years, now C&D and R&T want to hear what you think". Yeah, right! If they'd been up front and the test drivers had quit trashing the other cars, we probably would have left with a more favorable impression. But, as it was, we left feeling like they were trying to con us and perhaps didn't give the Legacy a chance. Still, I doubt my impressions would have been any different. The Subaru felt like it's performance and handling was tacked on instead of being built in with it's turbo and AWD added on to a more pedestrian car to create the "performance" model GT.

[rdollie]

Just so I'm clear - are you saying they pitted non-AWD versions of the Volvo and BMW products against the Subbies? Why? I bet they went for the light-pressure turbo Volvos at that instead of the high-pressure turbo variants.

QUOTE=Dave 330i]OK, Subaru sponsored the event. I could smell it as soon as I got there. The biggest and the coolest air conditioned tent had bunch of Subaru in it. A cup of Starbuck coffee got me wired to go. The sky looked like another hot humid day in Houston but there were plenty of water and coke to replenish the liquid lost in my body. Road & Track and Car and Driver executed event, which will be held in 10 cities across the USA. I got my Saturday 8:00 am appointment at Reliant Park through the Internet, http://www.rideanddrive.net/

Three tracks were set up; performance, handling, and traction courses. Lagacy 2.5 GT, 325i, and S60 sedans were used for the performance and handling courses. Station wagons of the same BMW and Subaru models and a Volvo V70 were used for the traction course. The specs for each car are shown in the pictures. All cars had automatic transmissions.

After a brief training on how to negotiate through a corner by a knowledgeable instructor, three groups of 9 drivers plus an instructor were ushered to each of the three courses (27 people were in the 8 am session). The turns on the courses were tight, but each course had its unique features. The performance had a straight where you could reach about 50mph with 4 people in the car. That’s right, each car was loaded with 3 drivers who rotated driving the course, and the instructor. The handling course had sharp increasing and decreasing curves, while the traction course had a two turn slalom plus a sanded section. Subaru insisted to show their viscous 4X drivetrain, which distributes the power from 55/45 up to 50/50.

How exciting can it get when you have 4 people in the car while you are negotiating around the cones? Not very. OK, my impression as all of you are waiting for. Going into the test I had to be unbiased even though I owned a 330i. I wondered why the test favored the Subaru Turbo GT? I questioned why325i did not have the SP package. Extra $$ was the answer. Because the BMW had standard tires the car rode on the sidewall of the all-season tires mounted to 16” wheel during hard turns with 4 people onboard. I could smell the burnt tires after the drive. The GT had lower profile tires on 17” wheels, and they were planted at all time without complaints.

My impression. The BMW is balanced but it lacked the power (184 hp) of the Subaru (250 hp) and the 4X drive to win my vote. The S60 and the V70 Volvo continue to be designed for the mature family type male. It was not in the same league as the BMW and the Subaru. It was the heaviest car, and had a lot of understeer with its front wheel drive. The 4X drive in the Subaru planted the car on the asphalt all the time. It was my first experience with a 4X car, and it took a little time to used to it. Even though the Subaru is the winner in my and most other drivers’ book, I don’t like TC cars for my daily drive. The turbo doesn’t kick in until around 2700 rpm. I think for a unbiased buyer who is looking at the 325i, the Subaru looks like a good buy, just like the G35 as compared to the 330i.[/QUOTE]

[Ci2Eye]

Yep, that's exactly what they did. Not exactly fair but they claimed it was to keep the prices in line. However, I just ran the numbers at BMWUSA.com and a 325Xi with sport package and automatic (all the cars were automatics) is $32,920. In Dave330i's picture of one of the charts, I can see that they list their car at $30,551 and the Volvo at $32,165 so an AWD, SP 325i wouldn't have been totally out of line price-wise and it would have been a fairer competiton.

In spite of the bias and hidden agenda, it was still a fun event and I appreciated the invitation. They had a few well known names from racing acting as your co-pilots and they encouraged you to push the cars unlike a Cadillac event I went to where we were politely told "this is a test track, not a race track". Their product is much improved, has it's attributes and is impressive for a Subaru. All in all, a nice way to spend a couple of hours. Just don't fall for that line about Car and Driver and Road and Track want to know what you think.

[Dave 330i]

Just so I'm clear - are you saying they pitted non-AWD versions of the Volvo and BMW products against the Subbies? Why? I bet they went for the light-pressure turbo Volvos at that instead of the high-pressure turbo variants.

The answer was the 325xi was more expensive. All cars were around $30K. Yes, they selected a low pressured Volvo. At the very beginning, the lead instructor said the BMW was the bench mark, and that any sport sedan comparison test will include it as the benchmark. But knowing some were obviously bias, he asked that we evaluate the cars based on their merits.

I have never been to a driving school, so on the track I thrash the cars just like the other daily commuters. I did learn a few things from the instructor, like when to brake, how to apporach a turn, and where to look, and when to accelerate. These few simple ideas will carry my limited driving skills a long way.

[john.di.martino]

Thought you guys may be interested in this comparison

http://motoring.iafrica.com/carsinaction/shootout/291844.htm

Regards

John

[tamum3]

I went this weekend as well....it was fun, but I think they should have had a Lexus IS300 and an Audi A4 in the group. The Volvo wasnt really worth having in this event because it's too soft and cushy for the type of drive they setup.

The ultimate driving experience from Bmw I did last December was alot of fun. It's a mini driving school (1-2 hours) where they let you take out 330's. They actually wanted you to push the cars and there was a competition to see who could get the best lap time. :thumbup:

[rdollie]

I've been to similar events for Lexus IS300, Volvo S60R, and yes even Volvo XC90 (that's a blast - being asked to push a SUV and dared to roll it on a tarmac.)


The ultimate driving experience from Bmw I did last December was alot of fun. It's a mini driving school (1-2 hours) where they let you take out 330's. They actually wanted you to push the cars and there was a competition to see who could get the best lap time. :thumbup:

[Dave 330i]

I went this weekend as well....it was fun, but I think they should have had a Lexus IS300 and an Audi A4 in the group. The Volvo wasnt really worth having in this event because it's too soft and cushy for the type of drive they setup.

The ultimate driving experience from Bmw I did last December was alot of fun. It's a mini driving school (1-2 hours) where they let you take out 330's. They actually wanted you to push the cars and there was a competition to see who could get the best lap time. :thumbup:

It was obvious that the set up was Legacy GT vs. 325i. The S60 was there as a pretender.